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Author Topic: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?  (Read 806 times)

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Offline gambra

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Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
« on: December 05, 2017, 10:58:01 PM »
I've been taping shows for years now with the Edirol R-09 unit with the internal mics. I'm looking to move on after all this time preferably to another all in one/internal mic unit. I'd rather not have a full mic/preamp/battery box rig unless there's a single mic that's now recommended for around the €150 region that doesn't need external power.

Edit: Before anyone asks I only do stealth tapings.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 11:51:35 PM by gambra »
Rig: Edirol R-09

Online heathen

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Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2017, 12:28:52 AM »
Is €150 your total budget or just your budget for external mics?
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | Countryman B3s | CA-14 omnis | AT853 cards | AKG 460/ck61 | Studio Projects CS5
Decks: Zoom F4 | Roland R-05

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2017, 11:12:04 AM »
I'm sorry if this offends, but you'll improve recordings a thousand percent by investing in a pair of new or used church audio cards. Should be within your budget. Others can chime in re: whether the pip on the Edirol will power the mics or if a battery box is needed.
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Offline obsidian

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Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2017, 05:48:42 PM »
I'm sorry if this offends, but you'll improve recordings a thousand percent by investing in a pair of new or used church audio cards. Should be within your budget. Others can chime in re: whether the pip on the Edirol will power the mics or if a battery box is needed.

+1
It doesn't even have to be Church Audio Mics. Sound Pros, Mic Madness and Core Sound all make some amazing mics to fit just about any budget. I use Naiants to stealth (if that is the goal) and have had amazing results using just them and the mic input (mic power).  A battery box will push the mics a little better but if simplicity is what you want - then nothing wrong with using mic-in power. Still better than the internals by a long shot.


Offline Moke

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Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2017, 05:52:44 PM »
I've recorded in the Persian community for quite a while. When I started up, I'd attend shows where there was a lady who had a shoebox style portable mono cassette recorder.  It always amused me, bringing me back to 1969/70, and trying to capture my favorite songs from 93KHJ AM radio Los Angelels, from my transistor 8-Ball radio 1.5" speaker, with a similar shoebox deck, and, included outboard plastic mic..

At any rate, she'd be in the hall early, and sit next to the center aisle, hit record, and place it on the floor next to her in the center aisle.
I asked if she'd like to have copy of mine, with permission from the ensemble. She said no, that she was quite happy with hers; mono cassette from an early 70's recorder, with single built-in mic; this in 2005+ or so.
We'd exchange nicities at just about all of the concerts around So.Cal, and she kept her mono deck fed and spinning.
It doesn't always have to be about righteous fidelity to keep people happy.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 05:54:38 PM by Moke »
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Offline ilduclo

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Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2017, 06:07:11 PM »
Hiya, G!

$177 is a little low for a used m10 but the zoom h4 is close to that as is the tascam dr40 and the roland r5.  Zoom 1 and Tascam dr5 are lower. Zoom Q3 HD is usually under that $177 limit and does video and audio. Bradleybee on dime uses one and gets good captures.

 
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 06:10:54 PM by ilduclo »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2017, 06:08:21 PM »
^ Great story. 

Everyone here is right.  Find your own comfort/quality zone.  If you decide to use external mics the suggestions above are what most around here would choose to do (most using a battery box, some straight in powered by the recorder's PIP).  The good news is that if you want to stick with internal microphones, most of the remaining available modern handheld recorders have considerably better internal microphones than the venerable R09 which was a great recorder for it's time, but the internal mics were nothing special.
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Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2017, 06:34:11 PM »
I'm curious what the 70d internals sound like. The only time I used them, I recorded the inside, bottom, of my recording bag, as part of a four channel recording effort.
Duh.
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Offline obsidian

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Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2017, 07:07:15 PM »
^ Great story. 

Everyone here is right.  Find your own comfort/quality zone.  If you decide to use external mics the suggestions above are what most around here would choose to do (most using a battery box, some straight in powered by the recorder's PIP).  The good news is that if you want to stick with internal microphones, most of the remaining available modern handheld recorders have considerably better internal microphones than the venerable R09 which was a great recorder for it's time, but the internal mics were nothing special.

I am the Worlds biggest Gutbucket fan. Whatever he suggests is usually the best advice you can get. No joke, once a week I also come on and search out his posts. I have learned so much. His efforts, as well as the efforts of many on here, is what makes this site so amazing.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2017, 09:55:43 PM »
Shhh. It'll go to his head.
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Offline nak700s

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Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2017, 06:03:16 PM »
I'm sorry if this offends, but you'll improve recordings a thousand percent by investing in a pair of new or used church audio cards. Should be within your budget. Others can chime in re: whether the pip on the Edirol will power the mics or if a battery box is needed.

I agree 100%.  I personally use the set up you speak of... CA-14c > CA9200 > Edirol R-09HR.  It is affordable and small.  All has walked through metal detectors with no problems, and make wonderful recordings.  I have the alligator clips on the mics (an option from Church Audio) and clip them inside a mesh baseball cap.  I'm not fond of having them in the hat, but it puts my mics at head level, not inside a crowd, and is definitely worth it.  The Edirol R-09HR is an excellent small recorder, and if I remember correctly, when it came out, those internals were the best rated...although I don't use the internals unless I'm screwed or taping myself playing just for a quick reference. Stick with that machine if it's still working well, you'll miss the control configuration if you don't!

Added:  I didn't realize you were using an R-09, and not an R-09HR.  Different mics!  The R-09's aren't terrible, but you'd be exponentially happier with externals.  By the way, although I don't recommend it, you can plug the CA-14c's directly into the mic in.  It will sound OK, but better if you use the pre (CA9200, which is about the same size as the Edirol).
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 06:11:56 PM by nak700s »
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2017, 09:34:36 AM »
The mics in the original R-09 were omnis, mounted too close together for really good stereo.  I think the internal mics in the R-09HR were cardioids and of better quality but I never used one of those.

If you do decide to make the jump to external mics and a preamp, the setup nak700s describes is a good target and should improve the quality of your recordings significantly.  You could use either omnis or cardioids in that case.  If you want to stick with only a recorder using it's internal mics, look for a recorder which is known for having good sounding internal cardioid mics and orient it in the appropriate direction when making the recording.
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Offline gormenghast

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Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2017, 12:23:32 PM »
IMO, and this depends on the concert, the Sony M10 will give you a good recording to start with if you EQ. 

Tears For Fears with the family I brought only my M10.  Recorded the whole show and did a little EQ after.  My daughter loves the recording.  It might not be for everyone but that doesn't matter to us.  I think it sounds very good actually, this coming from a person who taped mostly with Schoeps mics.  And I think most of my recordings suck.

Recorded my son's HS Jazz Band last year with the R05 internals and this year with a Zoom H2nPro.  The R05 needed a little EQ, but the Zoom didn't.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2017, 04:38:35 PM »
Zooms get al lot of flack around here (at least they did prior to the F8), but their directional internal mics seem pretty decent from what I've heard.

M10 has internal omnis of much better quality than the original R-09 tonally and noise-wise, which is vastly more important than providing good stereophonic qualities, yet its stereo quality is limited by having both omnis mounted within inches of each other just like the R-09.

Fashion some kind of Jecklin-disk like baffle between the built-in omnis (using just a postcard or menu or something) and you can improve the stereo separation and stereophonic qualities of the resulting recording significantly.
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Offline nak700s

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Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2017, 06:19:46 PM »
Zooms get al lot of flack around here (at least they did prior to the F8), but their directional internal mics seem pretty decent from what I've heard.

M10 has internal omnis of much better quality than the original R-09 tonally and noise-wise, which is vastly more important than providing good stereophonic qualities, yet its stereo quality is limited by having both omnis mounted within inches of each other just like the R-09.

Fashion some kind of Jecklin-disk like baffle between the built-in omnis (using just a postcard or menu or something) and you can improve the stereo separation and stereophonic qualities of the resulting recording significantly.

Yup.  Personally, I wouldn't touch a Zoom, but the M10 is a quality machine.  I use coasters (from a bar) for a ton of things, and separation of channels would work with them as well.  If close enough to the source, like stage lip close, the separation is noticeable.  I still maintain that a pair of CA-14c's > CA9200 > Edirol R-09 would be a big step up and satisfy.
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

 

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