Gear / Technical Help > Ask The Tapers
Seeking advice on an upcoming project- $2k budget, best technique in ~700 rooms?
lmgbtapes:
Hello,
I would like to say from the onset that I realize that the best possible avenue of learning is going to be getting out there and experimenting as much as possible. I am by no means looking for others to do my homework for me- I have been aggressively researching all the options that are available to me, and I am still early in this process- I am only looking to pick the brains of anyone who would be so generous as to share their insight or perspectives on how I might go about capturing the best possible recording(s) in the near future, given their individual experience and perspectives. I am about 2.5 months out from this particular project- it is fairly daunting trying to catch up and hone in on exactly what information will be the best for me to brush up on, given the wealth of information at my disposal wrt audio engineering and live recording.
I have been capturing audience bootlegs for about two years now, and I am seeking to step up my game as much as possible after having been granted permission to record with the blessing of one of my favorite bands. I'll have a bit more setup time than I am used to, here- so I am trying to explore my options and come to a conclusion regarding which equipment I am going to purchase and which technique I am going to employ.
The room: https://www.google.com/search?q=saxapahaw+ballroom&rlz=1CATAAB_enUS676US676&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiY9fHzrsbdAhUIsFQKHadYCsYQ_AUIDygC&biw=1745&bih=878#imgrc=xQbwbrLCissMYM:
Me: Passionate, dorky, but lacking experience with professional equipment and formal setups.
My budget: ~$2,000
The band: Rock. Four piece ensemble- Guitar/vocals, drums, bass, and an instrumentalist who alternates between sax, clarinet, and keys.
My current setup: Zoom H4n pro w/ CA-14 omnis & the ability to occasionally plug into the board. Here's my last go of it: https://archive.org/details/tmg2018-09-14
I am currently looking at purchasing an Edirol R-44, a CSM88 (Blumlein) from B9Audio, and a Zoom H6.
The Edirol would be an investment for future advancement- For this project, I would be utilizing it to capture a clean feed from the board, and I am looking at the CSM88 due to the reports of its exceptional value, and others fervent passion for blumlein captures. The H6 would be used to power and monitor the CSM88- I would be purchasing it under the assumption that I may not be able to run it into the R-44, and I want to have the possibility of maximal mobility with the mic. My working plan would be to set the mic up on a ~9' boom near the mixer (seen at the bottom of the image posted above) in the back center of the room, set up a bar to clip my CA-14s to as a backup / to experiment with mixing it in for lows (I have always been impressed with the bass capture of the CA-14 omnis), and mix these with what I capture from the board.
I am curious for anyone's perspective on this working plan (And especially if anyone has any suggestions totally different from what I'm considering, given the nature of the room and techniques/gear they have utilized in the past)- my main concerns are the following:
-Do you think it foolish to use the CSM88 for this project, in the position I am thinking of? My research has indicated that it would not typically be set up at the distance I am planning- But I am struggling to find a better plan with it, and it seems to be a fantastic investment which could produce excellent recordings in the smaller rooms I plan to record in in the future (400-600 capacity venues)
-If you believe the CSM88 to be the wrong path, which ~1k mic(s) would you suggest for the position I am thinking of?
I expect to have a fair degree of leeway regarding setup- research has indicated that dual omnis positioned at the ends of the stage above the crowd is often a good choice. I am struggling to find quality omnis that run under 2k, though. Is this something that is worth exploring more? I am concerned regarding how it will actually end up re: buying clamps/stands and setting up on the stage given that I have no experience. Setting up at the back of the room seems like the safer bet?
And finally, I have been exploring the how-tos regarding capturing the best possible feed from the board. In the recording I linked, I was able to get a feed via XLRs into my zoom from the mixer located at the back of the venue- Am I correct in thinking this is different, and sub-par in comparison to plugging into the "soundboard", which is located on the stage?
My goal here is to purchase equipment as soon as possible, and then seek avenues to set up and experiment in my local community (Phoenix), leading up to the opportunity at the venue in the image at the end of November.
Geeze, I'm really asking a lot here, I know. I'm a total novice, and I have a LOT to learn. I've been googling as much as possible to soak everything in, and I will continue to do so. Thanks to anyone who gives this any thought, I will appreciate any perspectives that are shared. If anything this just allows me to collect my thoughts. Appreciate this forum a lot, it has been very helpful in my journey thusfar.
DSatz:
I have used an R-44 for hundreds of live recordings over quite a few years now, and it has never failed me. The only thing that takes some getting used to is the two concentric level-setting knobs per input channel. (Make sure yours has the latest firmware, which improves the metering.)
But I would never choose Blumlein as my sole approach when I have to record in many different settings that I have no control over. Almost any other approach would give you a higher success rate! I think of Blumlein somewhat as the unicorn among stereo recording methods: When it works well, it works beautifully--but it requires an outstandingly good acoustical situation to begin with--to a degree that is rare even in the classical music world where I mostly work--plus an arrangement of sound sources within that space that fits the unfortunately narrow horizontal scope of the microphone pair. You also need ample opportunity to find just the right placement for the mikes. It is very nearly the exact opposite, IMO, of the basic requirement for the kind of project you describe--though if you're prepared to reject at least half your recordings, by the time the project has ended you will undoubtedly become very good at using this technique to its best advantage.
If you must use just one miking technique for all the recordings, and you want to keep down the risks of abject failure (even at the cost of some special benefit that you could have gotten in a given instance with a more customized setup), then I would recommend ORTF instead, or something like it. If you typically will be forced to record from a greater miking distance than you would choose if you could choose, use supercardioids instead of cardioids, bring the capsules a bit closer together, and narrow the angle between them a bit. Or if your miking distances can usually be as you prefer, and the recording spaces tend toward pleasant-sounding, you could have yourself some fun and use wide cardioids (spaced farther apart than ORTF) instead. (Hint: In the actual Schoeps line, rather than these "tribute microphones" if I may call them that before I think twice about it, there is a very interesting creature called an "open cardioid" which is between cardioid and the more usual type of "wide cardioid".)
--best regards
rocksuitcase:
--- Quote ---I am struggling to find quality omnis that run under 2k,
--- End quote ---
Just regarding this statement: We've been using AKG ck22 omni caps with either c460 pre amps OR nbob collettes. Even with new nbobs (~$550) and used caps ($~400ish) Your well below $2k.
In fact, no affiliation- but spyder9 currently has these 460/ck22's for sale for $600: https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=186957.0
In my opinion, the caps alone are worth buying this 460/ck22 setup (At his price). I've been ogling these ck22's for a while but I made the move to a new pair of DPA 4060's (not fully paid for so not in hand yet!).
heathen:
A pair of DPA 406x, even at full retail, would cost well under $2k.
Edit: Also, jnorman has written very positively in the past on here about the Audio-Technica AT4022 omnis. $700 for a pair at full retail.
lmgbtapes:
--- Quote from: DSatz on September 19, 2018, 09:22:25 AM ---I have used an R-44 for hundreds of live recordings over quite a few years now, and it has never failed me. The only thing that takes some getting used to is the two concentric level-setting knobs per input channel. (Make sure yours has the latest firmware, which improves the metering.)
But I would never choose Blumlein as my sole approach when I have to record in many different settings that I have no control over. Almost any other approach would give you a higher success rate! I think of Blumlein somewhat as the unicorn among stereo recording methods: When it works well, it works beautifully--but it requires an outstandingly good acoustical situation to begin with--to a degree that is rare even in the classical music world where I mostly work--plus an arrangement of sound sources within that space that fits the unfortunately narrow horizontal scope of the microphone pair. You also need ample opportunity to find just the right placement for the mikes. It is very nearly the exact opposite, IMO, of the basic requirement for the kind of project you describe--though if you're prepared to reject at least half your recordings, by the time the project has ended you will undoubtedly become very good at using this technique to its best advantage.
If you must use just one miking technique for all the recordings, and you want to keep down the risks of abject failure (even at the cost of some special benefit that you could have gotten in a given instance with a more customized setup), then I would recommend ORTF instead, or something like it. If you typically will be forced to record from a greater miking distance than you would choose if you could choose, use supercardioids instead of cardioids, bring the capsules a bit closer together, and narrow the angle between them a bit. Or if your miking distances can usually be as you prefer, and the recording spaces tend toward pleasant-sounding, you could have yourself some fun and use wide cardioids (spaced farther apart than ORTF) instead. (Hint: In the actual Schoeps line, rather than these "tribute microphones" if I may call them that before I think twice about it, there is a very interesting creature called an "open cardioid" which is between cardioid and the more usual type of "wide cardioid".)
--best regards
--- End quote ---
Thank you very much for this input- it's what I feared, and the direction I was leaning in as I researched the virtues of blumlein more. I am looking into ORTF recordings and liking what I hear- even in a rock setting. Going to deeply explore this avenue. That Schoeps ORTF setup looks so great and newbie friendly in everything but price..
--- Quote from: rocksuitcase on September 19, 2018, 12:27:25 PM ---
--- Quote ---I am struggling to find quality omnis that run under 2k,
--- End quote ---
Just regarding this statement: We've been using AKG ck22 omni caps with either c460 pre amps OR nbob collettes. Even with new nbobs (~$550) and used caps ($~400ish) Your well below $2k.
In fact, no affiliation- but spyder9 currently has these 460/ck22's for sale for $600: https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=186957.0
In my opinion, the caps alone are worth buying this 460/ck22 setup (At his price). I've been ogling these ck22's for a while but I made the move to a new pair of DPA 4060's (not fully paid for so not in hand yet!).
--- End quote ---
Thank you- feel silly for making for that statement, I should have phrased it as 'struggling to find a standard'- I appreciate this suggestion, going to assist in some research after work tonight.
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