Topic: 0 degree, near coincidence cardioids

[d5]

I taped a couple of GD shows in the 80's with this guy that used to setup his mic's near coincidence with a 0 (zero) degree angle. He said that Healy had told him that this was the best setup to use given the distance of the official tapers section from the speakers.

Edit: the mic's he used were some older AKG cardioids... I don't think they were 451's (but possibly) and definitely not 460's.

I tried this a few times on my own and the results were pretty good. It's not a very open soundstage, but definitely not mono sounding either. Also, the sense of distance seems less.

Has anyone else had experience with this configuration?

[Craig T]

is 0 the same as 180? the mics facing "outwards", opposite direction of each other?

[hexyjones]

Lately I've been echewing the whole "pattern" thing for a more "point and shoot" approach...just point the damn things at the sounds you want to record!

I was a hardcore X/Yer for a long time...but lately - I hate to say it...just point them at the sound...the more on-axis the source the better...

I use NOS a lot now - but in most of the venues I go to - that is basically pointing them at the stacks...

I have a boom that I have modified to make 3 foot T-Bar for use this summer and in one bar I can think of...0 degrees is what I had in mind...

[d5]

is 0 the same as 180? the mics facing "outwards", opposite direction of each other?

nope... parallel to each other. Healy's 180 was for omni's, this was definitely card's

[d5]

Lately I've been echewing the whole "pattern" thing for a more "point and shoot" approach...just point the damn things at the sounds you want to record!

I was a hardcore X/Yer for a long time...but lately - I hate to say it...just point them at the sound...the more on-axis the source the better...

I use NOS a lot now - but in most of the venues I go to - that is basically pointing them at the stacks...

I have a boom that I have modified to make 3 foot T-Bar for use this summer and in one bar I can think of...0 degrees is what I had in mind...

This would be kinda the ultimate point and shoot, wouldn't it

I tend to use either x-y or ortf, so going back to these tapes was kind of surprise based on how good they sounded.

[Brian]

not mono?  I'm finding that VERY hard to believe.  any way you can post a sample?

 

[bhtoque]

So you're saying they were AB, but with no space between? I'd think you'd get a lot of phase cancellation, but I could be wrong.

like this??

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JAson

[Craig T]

so this is "A-B" cards.

[pfife]

So you're saying they were AB, but with no space between? I'd think you'd get a lot of phase cancellation, but I could be wrong.

first thing I thought too.... 

[d5]

So you're saying they were AB, but with no space between? I'd think you'd get a lot of phase cancellation, but I could be wrong.

like this??

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JAson

If I remember, it was a standard t-bar, so they would have been about 4 inches apart

[bhtoque]

Ok, then it was A-B cards. I've run guns and omni's that way, but not cards.

The wider you spread them, the better the image will be. If you have a longer bar, like the bogen or k&M, you can get really good results.

That far back, I'm sure AB helps keep the room and crowd off axis, which will kill some of the distance sound.

JAson

[Kyle]

I have used this technique several times when I was rather off-center (or the venue sound sucked) - on the whole, it has worked well.   Again, not the most open soundstage (prolly somewhat mono), but quite listenable. ymmv. I usually run dina though.

[d5]

...but definitely not mono sounding either. Also, the sense of distance seems less.

not mono?  I'm finding that VERY hard to believe.  any way you can post a sample?

What I had in mind when I wrote definitely not mono, was mono soundboards, which I have a few but can't stand listening to. This is a lot more listenable.

I have used this technique several times when I was rather off-center (or the venue sound sucked) - on the whole, it has worked well.   Again, not the most open soundstage (prolly somewhat mono), but quite listenable. ymmv. I usually run dina though.

This is a better description. I agree that the soundstage isn't the most open, but it surprised me how much it actually was.

I have a Max Creek analog from 88 or 89 that I can post on archive.org in the few days

[Tall Adam]

matt (dgrayshn) runs his 414 cards AB a lot and swears by it...ask him...or hear for yourself: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=dgrayshn%20AND%20mediatype%3Aetree%20AND%20collection%3Aetree

[spreetaper]

matt (dgrayshn) runs his 414 cards AB a lot and swears by it...ask him...or hear for yourself: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=dgrayshn%20AND%20mediatype%3Aetree%20AND%20collection%3Aetree

this would be me....

I've not had any phase problems while running AB.. I also managed to convet a religious XY taper over to AB... we both agree that XY to our ears often does not sound realistic... to us AB sounds like you are actually in a room with space around you.. XY sounds far too often like you are in a box... thats the best way I know how to desrcibe it :-)

[Tim]

matt (dgrayshn) runs his 414 cards AB a lot and swears by it...ask him...or hear for yourself: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=dgrayshn%20AND%20mediatype%3Aetree%20AND%20collection%3Aetree

this would be me....

I've not had any phase problems while running AB.. I also managed to convet a religious XY taper over to AB... we both agree that XY to our ears often does not sound realistic... to us AB sounds like you are actually in a room with space around you.. XY sounds far too often like you are in a box... thats the best way I know how to desrcibe it :-)

have you experimented with any other stereo configs? I agree with you about x/y in general but I've never been pleased with the few AB tapes that I've heard. I'm going to grab one of your tapes though and give it a shot!

[d5]

not mono?  I'm finding that VERY hard to believe.  any way you can post a sample?

This is an analog of Max Creek taped at The West Hartford Ballroom using the A-B technique. This club was a big open room and the sound man wouldn't let anyone tape in the middle as it obstructed his view of the stage, so this was taped in front of the left stack.

http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=22146

[Brian]

do you anything DFC?

that would be a better listening test.

oh and sorry about the confusion earlier.

[d5]

do you anything DFC?

that would be a better listening test.

oh and sorry about the confusion earlier.

No, sorry I dont, but at DFC I personally wouldn't use this. The GD tape is closer to center, but I haven't done the A-D conversion yet

[Brian]

gotcha, thanks anyways +T

[pfife]

matt (dgrayshn) runs his 414 cards AB a lot and swears by it...ask him...or hear for yourself: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=dgrayshn%20AND%20mediatype%3Aetree%20AND%20collection%3Aetree

this would be me....

I've not had any phase problems while running AB.. I also managed to convet a religious XY taper over to AB... we both agree that XY to our ears often does not sound realistic... to us AB sounds like you are actually in a room with space around you.. XY sounds far too often like you are in a box... thats the best way I know how to desrcibe it :-)

have you experimented with any other stereo configs? I agree with you about x/y in general but I've never been pleased with the few AB tapes that I've heard. I'm going to grab one of your tapes though and give it a shot!

My interest is peaked too.  Have you found that you like A-B Cards better than DIN cards?  I definately agree with y'alls assessment of XY - I used it when I first began taping, cause it seems like the most conservative route (cuts out boominess, noise, etc) but the first tape I made DIN made me never want to go back to XY.

nice convo.

[bagtagsell]

there is some guy i've bumped into several times, who runs 391s>wmod ua-5 parallell.  I first thought he had no idea what he was doing, but maybe he's on to something

[dmonterisi]

i would think running a-b would neutralize some or most of the color the mics impart to the sound.  most of the microphone color is due to differing frequency response when the mic is off-axis.  certain frequencies become emphasized and others diminished, creating a distinctive sound to the mics.  when on-axis, the mics typically have a flatter frequency response resulting in a more neutral sound, i would think.  but i have never run a-b so take it fwiw.

[suspect]

matt (dgrayshn) runs his 414 cards AB a lot and swears by it...ask him...or hear for yourself: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=dgrayshn%20AND%20mediatype%3Aetree%20AND%20collection%3Aetree

this would be me....

I've not had any phase problems while running AB.. I also managed to convet a religious XY taper over to AB... we both agree that XY to our ears often does not sound realistic... to us AB sounds like you are actually in a room with space around you.. XY sounds far too often like you are in a box... thats the best way I know how to desrcibe it :-)

The guy he converted would be me.  I taped using XY for the longest time and I gave it a shot one night and haven't looked back since.  It is really nice in venues with poor acoustics because for some reason, XY was sounding really tight.  I use it almost all the time now.  The spotlight show on the archive (http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=20725&from=collectionSpotlight) was taped using AB and I really like the sounds.  These guys opened for Jazz Mandolin Project that night and both recordings turned out very nice, IMHO.

+T for converting me

later,
...tom

[Tim]

again, have you compared a/b to din, nos, ortf?

[F.O.Bean]

again, have you compared a/b to din, nos, ortf?

ive heard a/b and have always HATED it, also XY, but YMMV

im a DIN/DINa/NOS/ORTF kinda guy

[thoman8r]

Nick Gregory got me using DIN with the gefells and I haven't looked back since.  We all look for different things in our recordings though, and I can see the attraction of running A-B, especially in a poor-sounding room.