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Author Topic: MT: Shutting down early with 24 bit digital input?  (Read 7738 times)

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Offline Todd R

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MT: Shutting down early with 24 bit digital input?
« on: November 07, 2005, 07:57:00 PM »
Can't remember if this has been covered in the other MT threads, though I think I've been keeping up on them --

Has anyone else been having the problem that the MT provides the incorrect remaining time available when recording in 24 bit from a digital signal, and then shuts down the recording when the (false) end comes?

I recorded some sets in 24bit this past weekend at Widespread at the Fillmore.  Going 24bit out of the V3 into the MT using a Kingston 45x card.  First set recorded fine, about 1 hour 12 minutes or so.  Second set, I checked on the MT and it had shut down and was just giving me the battery charging icon.  Turns out, it saved the file fine early on its own, at about 1:27 hours:minutes.  Which as I recall I had seen as the remaining time available when I started the recording.   I ignored that since I assumed it was just a glitch.  Recording at 24/44, I should have ~2hours before I hit the 2gig limit, and with a 4gig card that had already recorded 1:15 at 24/44, I should have enough space left for about 2:45.  So depending on how the remaining time figures out what is left (available card storage vs available time considering the 2gig file size), I should have had either ~2:00 or ~2:45.  Since it read 1:27 as remaining, I ignored it, but it did in fact shut down at 1:27, though there was adequate storage available on the card for a longer file.

I discussed this with ScottSch and he had the same problem at Tea Leaf Green.  So for the next show for Panic, I again recorded 24/44 via the digi in.  First recording started and said I had 2:01 time remaining.  Recorded ~1:15 without a problem.  Started recording for the second set, and it said I had 1:27 time remaining.  Since that was again wrong (should have ~2:45 available), I stopped that file and started another file.  That file said I had 3:10 remaining time left.  Which is clearly wrong, since my 4gig card less the 1:15 should leave me with ~2:45 available.  I recorded the set that way, and then during a break in the music, saved the file at about 1 hour and started another.  That new file again said I had 3:10 remaining time available, though I should only then had about 1:45 available.  Recorded the rest of the set fine and saved the file (under an hour, I forget exactly how long).

So that's the long story.  Short summary is that I'm finding the remaining time reading on the MT to be very random when recording 24bits.  But the MT will save and shut down when it thinks it has run out of media space, even when there is plenty available.
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Offline JasonSobel

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Re: MT: Shutting down early with 24 bit digital input?
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2005, 08:14:50 PM »
I have not yet had it shut down on me.  One thing that I have noticed though, is this: with the first recording of the night (first set), fresh from a format, the remaining time counts down from the 2 gig file size limit.  then, for the second set, it counts down from the remaining space on the card, even though it would hit 2 gigs before that full time could be recorded.  This is all at 24/48 via S/PDIF from the V3, using a 4GB Sandisk Ultra II cf card.

So, while I have not experienced the problem you are describing, I agree that the remaining time count down is a bit quirky.  I'll keep my eye out for what you're describing, though...

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Re: MT: Shutting down early with 24 bit digital input?
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2005, 08:31:00 PM »
I'm only running at 16bit SPDIF in, but I've had the same problem.  Turn on MT, start recording with a freshly formatted 2gb card and the display says I only have 1hr 27 mins or something of time on the card at 16/48. (2gig card at 16 bit should have 3hrs+)  If I start recording the first file and then stop and start a second file, the time remaining on the card is correct.  If I let it run down the 1hr 27min, the unit stops recording and does not restart.

So....what I have been doing in the field is to assume the MT will screw up the time remaining on the first file.  I start my first file when I set levels and if it shows the incorrect time, I run it for a few seconds, stop it, and when it is saved, the unit displays the correct time remaining for file #2 and I am good to go for the entire show.

It was suggested in another thread that I run a chkdsk on my CF card.  I've done so and there are no errors, so it sounds like a MT issue.

FWIW I am running a Kingston 50x Elite Pro 2GB card.

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Re: MT: Shutting down early with 24 bit digital input?
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2005, 08:45:10 PM »
i would contact MAudio & see if they are aware of incorrect time reading leading to shutoffs
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Re: MT: Shutting down early with 24 bit digital input?
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2005, 09:59:05 PM »
I think I had this problem at Codetalkers the other night. It recorded about 1hr5min then shut off. I recall the the remaining time said about that. I will have to keep an eye on that.

I fired up the MT at Panic with a freshly formated card and it said some time that was clearly less than 2GB. So I restarted and it worked fine (@16/48 it says something like 3:01:00).

Luckily everything worked great for my Panic sets! I would have been upset if it didn't (wasn't running backup). What a great time.

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Offline chitaper

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Re: MT: Shutting down early with 24 bit digital input?
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2005, 11:09:40 PM »
I have not yet had it shut down on me.  One thing that I have noticed though, is this: with the first recording of the night (first set), fresh from a format, the remaining time counts down from the 2 gig file size limit.  then, for the second set, it counts down from the remaining space on the card, even though it would hit 2 gigs before that full time could be recorded.  This is all at 24/48 via S/PDIF from the V3, using a 4GB Sandisk Ultra II cf card.

So, while I have not experienced the problem you are describing, I agree that the remaining time count down is a bit quirky.  I'll keep my eye out for what you're describing, though...
This is exactly how mine behaves 24/48 from a V3 also. I've never had to run long enough to see if it shut down though.

Offline L Ron Hoover

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Re: MT: Shutting down early with 24 bit digital input?
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2005, 09:57:55 AM »
I've had these issues as well. I sure hope the new firmware addresses this.

Offline anhisr

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Re: MT: Shutting down early with 24 bit digital input?
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2005, 10:07:11 AM »
I wonder how many of these problems are when people are using an external power source?   ???
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: MT: Shutting down early with 24 bit digital input?
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2005, 10:14:03 AM »
FWIW, I've encountered incorrect "time remaining" indicators, as well.  Haven't had my MT shut down on me, yet, but I've had it report remaining time both too long and too short than what I know is actually available.  So far, I've only used internal power when recording.
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Re: MT: Shutting down early with 24 bit digital input?
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2005, 11:37:03 AM »
this seems like a very important issue to let M-audio tech support know about. I think random stops in recording are a huge huge problem! I've even gone back to running my D8 for shows, just because I don't feel confident in the stability of the MT.

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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: MT: Shutting down early with 24 bit digital input?
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2005, 11:45:43 AM »
I think random stops in recording are a huge huge problem!

This may sound like a nitpick, but clarity is especially important in this case so <a> those of using the MT know for what symptoms to keep an eye out, and <b> those wishing to consider the device are not misled.

To be clear, this is not an issue of the MT stopping recording randomly.

At least not IME and based on what I've read in this thread.  The stops are entirely predictable based on either <1> the time remaining counter (if reading correctly or shorter than actual time remaining), or <2> expected time remaining (even if the counter reads *more* time is available).  I'm not saying it isn't a problem, but as I read the posts in this thread it doesn't appear the MT outta nowhere just shuts down completely unpredictably, i.e. randomly.
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Offline Todd R

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Re: MT: Shutting down early with 24 bit digital input?
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2005, 12:30:09 PM »
Ok, I've sent in a bug report on this to M-Audio.  We'll see what they say.  I've got a show to do tonight and don't feel like messing around testing the MT today.  I'll try to do some more testing to see if I can see a pattern. 

Brian is right though, it is not random -- it told me it could only record 1:27 and shut down at that point.  I just didn't believe the 1:27 since it wasn't accurate, but if it does this, you could still stop the recording before this and re-start.  I don't what to expect it to do though when I've got 2:15 hours of recorded 24bit files on a 4gb card and the remaining time reads 3:10 (when it should only have ~1:45 of time available).  When it gets to the 1:45 point does it save and shut down cleanly or does it not save and just crap out since it thought it should be able to record for quite a bit more time?  I have found out the hard way though that when it says it only has 1:27 available it will shut down at 1:27 -- got to get in touch with that patcher. ::)
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Re: MT: Shutting down early with 24 bit digital input?
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2005, 01:06:35 PM »
I think random stops in recording are a huge huge problem!

This may sound like a nitpick, but clarity is especially important in this case so <a> those of using the MT know for what symptoms to keep an eye out, and <b> those wishing to consider the device are not misled.

To be clear, this is not an issue of the MT stopping recording randomly.

At least not IME and based on what I've read in this thread.  The stops are entirely predictable based on either <1> the time remaining counter (if reading correctly or shorter than actual time remaining), or <2> expected time remaining (even if the counter reads *more* time is available).  I'm not saying it isn't a problem, but as I read the posts in this thread it doesn't appear the MT outta nowhere just shuts down completely unpredictably, i.e. randomly.

good point Bri. Seems to be important when you start recording to doublecheck the time remaining on the display.
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Offline chitaper

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Re: MT: Shutting down early with 24 bit digital input?
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2005, 08:08:15 PM »
I think random stops in recording are a huge huge problem!

This may sound like a nitpick, but clarity is especially important in this case so <a> those of using the MT know for what symptoms to keep an eye out, and <b> those wishing to consider the device are not misled.

To be clear, this is not an issue of the MT stopping recording randomly.

At least not IME and based on what I've read in this thread.  The stops are entirely predictable based on either <1> the time remaining counter (if reading correctly or shorter than actual time remaining), or <2> expected time remaining (even if the counter reads *more* time is available).  I'm not saying it isn't a problem, but as I read the posts in this thread it doesn't appear the MT outta nowhere just shuts down completely unpredictably, i.e. randomly.

good point Bri. Seems to be important when you start recording to doublecheck the time remaining on the display.

If it shows an error try starting a new file (pressing "record" twice) usually the new file will show the correct time for some reason.

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: MT: Shutting down early with 24 bit digital input?
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2005, 12:00:09 AM »
Alright, I ran a handful of tests, a handful of times against each test case.  Here's what I found with my gear...

Upstream Gear 1 - field
MK4 / KC5 / CMC6 >
Lunatec V3 (24-bit / 44.1kHz) >
Coax S/PDIF

Upstream Gear 2 - PC
Foobar2000 (24-bit / 44.1kHz) >
EgoSys Waveterminal 2496 >
Coax S/PDIF

Record Settings
MEDIA           : Kingston 45x CF Card
PHANTOM POWER   : Off
FILE FORMAT     : 24-bit
INPUT SOURCE    : S/PDIF
INPUT MONITORING: OFF
MONITOR VOLUME  : OFF
DISPLAY LIGHT   : OFF
L/M/H GAIN      : L (n/a)

In all cases, I left the coax S/PDIF cable connected to the MT, with the upstream gear constantly outputting a signal during all operations (power up, record, stop, format, etc.).  This was to simulate my field use - I will always have my V3 outputting a signal prior to performing any operation with the MT.  For this first round of testing, I only generated very short files:  10s - 5min, depending on whether I was preoccupied with work and conference calls.

[01] Power up MT, record

Whether the CF card is empty or contains data, the MT properly reports the Record Time Remaining when initiating the first recording after power up.

[02] Power up MT, record, stop, record again

Whether the CF card is empty or contains data, the MT improperly reports the Time Remaining when initiating a second (or third, or fourth...) recording.  In all cases, the MT reported the entire remaining capacity of the media as the Record Time Remaining, rather than the actual Record Time Remaining given the 2GB file size limit.

[03] Power up MT, record, stop, format media, record again

Whether the CF card is empty or contains data upon power up, the MT improperly reports the Record Time Remaining when initiating a second (or third, or fourth...) recording - even after formatting the CF card.  In all cases, the MT reported the entire remaining capacity of the media as the Record Time Remaining, rather than the actual Record Time Remaining given the 2GB file size limit.

[04] Power up MT, record, stop, delete file, record again

Whether the CF card is empty or contains data upon power up, the MT improperly reports the Time Remaining when initiating a second (or third, or fourth...) recording - even after deleting the file(s) on the CF card.  In all cases, the MT reported as Time Remaining the entire capacity of the media.

[05] Power up MT, record w/o signal

MT does not freeze upon recording a file without a signal, or stopping the recording.

[06] Power up MT, record w/o signal, stop, record again w/ signal

MT does not freeze upon recording a file without a signal feed, or stopping the recording - as long as the S/PDIF cable is connected.

With my field gear upstream, the MT successfully started a follow-up recording every time - sometimes displaying the Record Time Remaining correctly, and sometimes displaying the entire remaining capacity of the media as the Record Time Remaining.

With my PC-based gear upstream, the MT sometimes locked up when starting a subsequent recording (with or without a signal) unless first powering off/on.  When it successfully started the second recording, the MT displayed the entire remaining capacity of the media as the Record Time Remaining.

Note:  recording a file without a signal feed and without the S/PDIF cable connected, and it locks up *every* time upon "stopping" the recording - can't even initiate a second recording.



Not gobs of test cases, or gobs of runs against each case, but enough for my tastes for the moment.  Nothing definitive here, really, just thought I'd pass along my results.  Basically - it seems aside from the very first recording after power-up, my MT displays the entire remaining capacity of the media as the Record Time Remaining.  Not always, but most of the time.  From now on, I'll power off/on the MT between sets, as a safeguard in case the MT decides to report a too-short Record Time Remaining instead of the full media capacity as in my tests above.

Still not sure what the MT will do if it reads too much Record Time Remaining time (e.g. 4:23:10) and hits the 2GB marker.  Haven't gotten that far in my testing, yet.

And just in case something screwy happens over time, and since it reflects the scenario I generally find myself in when recording, I'll repeat test case [02] with longer initial recordings and then stop and restart recording only after the level meters go haywire.

PLEASE don't take these results as indicative of what *your* MT will do.  It seems others have entirely different experiences than mine, with the Recording Time Remaining generally reading shorter than it should (while mine generally reads longer than it should).
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