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Author Topic: ISO: Used Turntable - $100-300 Range - What should I look for?  (Read 12677 times)

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Offline cheshirecat

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Re: ISO: Used Turntable - $100-300 Range - What should I look for?
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2010, 10:17:18 AM »
I'd watch out for that particular one, it looks like it was bought in the UK then 'modified' to run in america (UK 50Hz power vs. US 60Hz power).  Typically if the modification doesn't include swapping out the motor or pully, it will run too fast in the US.  It will work, just at the wrong speed.
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mfrench

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Re: ISO: Used Turntable - $100-300 Range - What should I look for?
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2010, 11:15:25 AM »
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120596497086&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en#ht_500wt_1154

looking at this, any thoughts?
I'd watch out for that particular one, it looks like it was bought in the UK then 'modified' to run in america (UK 50Hz power vs. US 60Hz power).  Typically if the modification doesn't include swapping out the motor or pully, it will run too fast in the US.  It will work, just at the wrong speed.

Lenco made spare parts available back in their prime. If he replaced the motor spindle from a Euro 50hz spindle to a North American 60hz spindle, which was entirely possible with the available parts, it would be fine.
What I can see from it:
There is a strobe disc showing on the platter mat.  Lencos came with speed strobes in two versions, 50hz and 60hz discs. The 60hz version is what is showing.
Of the two strobes, the Euro 50hz strobes were monotone black on silver. The NA strobes were multi-color, as is shown on that table (you can easily identify it by the red band).
So, he's claiming it to be converted to 60hz (the only way back then was a spindle/motor swap), and, its showing that it has a 60hz strobe. Seems plausible.

There is also a DIY speed controller that is in the "expressing interest for group buy stage".  This will essentially be a box that converts voltage and voltage rate.
The point of this project is to control the motors speed. It also has the major bonus of making the Euro Lencos available to us, as it converts the supply rate.
Anther bonus is that it allows the voltage conversions to be done such that you can minimize motor vibrations by supplying the exact voltage/delivery to meet each motors sweet spot.
The converter is being made available as a circuit board only, and made available as a non-profit effort by its designer.  So, with some soldering DIY skills, an intimate motor controller is about to be made available that will drastically change the way Lencos run (I signed up for one or two boards, depending on cost).

edit to add:
Why its so critical for the 50hz/60hz spindle diff:

The motor spindle is conically tapered, and smoothly tapered for the most part, from skinny to fat. The skinny end is 16rpm, the fat end is 78rpm+, and you have infinite speed adjustabllity anywhere along the spindle between those speeds.
Problem:
There is a single step in the spindle between the 16rpm speed and the 33.3 speed. From 33.3 upward, its a smoothly tapered cone. This single step is where the problem lies between the 60hz and 50hz models. To get a 50hz model to spin at 33.3rpm in NA, it places the idler wheel directly on the edge of the spindle step, and makes for uneven pacing, because the wheel might want to step to 16rpm, or, step up to 33.3rpm - its literally a cliffhanger.

The motor spindle, and wheel.
To the left is the 16rpm side - the right is 78rpm (can go quicker than 78). You can see the hard step; the spindle tapers upward to it, hard step up, then smooth machine tapering from there onward.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 12:01:02 PM by mfrench »

Offline spcyrfc

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Re: ISO: Used Turntable - $100-300 Range - What should I look for?
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2010, 03:37:37 PM »
wow! my mind is blown.  don't know if i'll be getting in over my head picking up a table like that.  tempted to go for something new and hassle free as im not too good at DIYing.  but, still inticed by the the vintage market and the 'best' tables that will last a life time.  maintenance and care are things i'd love to learn for a nice table.

http://austin.craigslist.org/ele/1849050915.html

thorens td-160?
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mfrench

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Re: ISO: Used Turntable - $100-300 Range - What should I look for?
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2010, 05:00:51 PM »
Don't let my tech talk about Lencos scare you off. They're amazing, rugged grinders. That L75 will blow the TD160 Thorens away.
The only Thorens that comes close is the TD124 idler, and they run into the thousands consistently, and require a thorough going over checkup, and being Thorens - far more in depth. The Thorens TD124 is a great deck, but troublesome; the rest are belt drives.

A Lenco takes a bit of maintenance action right out of the box. In about an hour, its mechanically good to roll.
I can talk you through every inch of doing that. Its a piece of cake. As far as how they hold up - they're Swiss built tanks, amazing simplicity, very little to wear out.

You like heavy metal type music, right?
Belt drives bog down in heavy bass passages. They have diminutive credit card size motors and belts that just are not up to the task. The platters are too light and the belts slip, small inefficient motors.
The old idlers have massive motors, platters, and bearings to support them. These create and sustain a flywheel effect of reserve inertia that plows through thick passages like a diesel, where belts visibly slow down, and speed variation occur all throughout playback.
These traits are becoming quite well documented in this high-tech age, with such things as laser speed record weights that show a dot on the wall behind the player. If at perfect speed, it should be a still dot on the wall. If imperfect, it will show up as a line that varies either to the left or right of where the dot was. Belt drives, as witnessed by these type of speed indicators, show the laser lines all over the room.
Idler drives don't do that, because of the flywheel effect, because of the massive platters and industrial motors.

I sold my belt drive, a mid-line Rega P3-24, when I bought a speed strobe mat. This is the KAB Strobe mat which is a 10" platter mat, with speed markings that get illuminated by a accompanying strobe light. The 10" size is such that you can place it on a 12" record, and put the needle down, and watch for stylus drag. When perfect, the numbers stand still at each speed setting. When they don't, it is calibrated to be able to determine how far the speeds are off.
My Rega never came to full 33.3, running probably 32rpm, but when the needle dropped, it was all over the place. As soon as I realized just how inefficient belt drives were,.... off to idler drive heaven I went.
I'd suggest a direct drive over a belt drive, only after I hammered down the qualities of idlers, if you haven't noticed.
You'd have to spend lots of large notes to get a belt drive that is worth a,... spin.

Don't let me care you away from Lenco. They're amazingly simple and solid spinners.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 05:02:23 PM by mfrench »

Offline spcyrfc

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Re: ISO: Used Turntable - $100-300 Range - What should I look for?
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2010, 05:57:26 PM »
mike,

thanks for all the information.  i think im gonna go after this lenco L75 from ebay.  cant wait to get some vinyl spinning.  its been way to long.

as far as metal goes, not so much for me.  more of a mellow sound.  but, i never know what i might get into. 

seems like these can get pretty pricey.  any ideas what this should be worth?  rega p-1 are about $400.  that is probably tops of what i would spend on a new table. 

hidden costs in the lenco?  hows that goldring cartridge?

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mfrench

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Re: ISO: Used Turntable - $100-300 Range - What should I look for?
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2010, 06:18:51 PM »
i think I mistook you for ts member sxpxdx, with the metal comment - sorry for the confusion.

The main hidden cost is going to be the earlier mentioned tonearm. These decks (as well as the Thorens of similar age) have ism's that need to be worked through.  The main one with the Lenco is in the arm.
The arms are said to be quite good, if restored. This is not a big deal, restoring, with the hardest thing being tracking down aftermarket parts. Its the problem with the v-blocks that I mentioned earlier.

Old cartridges still have life in them. My L75 came with a 40y.o. Shure on it, a cheap cart back then that were giveaway installations on the decks. I still use it on my L75, and it sounds great. So, if there is an old cartridge, that will likely get you rolling.
If a new arm needs to get put into it, you can get a brand new cherry wood arm for a couple of bill$ ($225'ish), http://www.tonearmaudio.com . These arms are a straight drop-in replacement.
I have two of these arms, and I'm quite happy with them. They have a really nice retro look to them as well.

I'm going to risk a guess here and say that that deck will probably go for around $300.
I've seen them go for as little as $175, lately, and as much as $400 in stock form on ePay.

If you bid and win, there are sme specific actions that should be taken towards properly packaging it for shipping. LMK, and I'll spell those out, intimately.

mfrench

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Re: ISO: Used Turntable - $100-300 Range - What should I look for?
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2010, 09:06:15 AM »
are you in on the bidding on this one?
It nearly doubled overnight, from $200 to $390,.. ughh!

Offline spcyrfc

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Re: ISO: Used Turntable - $100-300 Range - What should I look for?
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2010, 12:21:31 PM »
i have not bid yet.  been thinking about it, but its a little rich for my blood.  considering going with a rega p-1 for the time being and patiently waiting for a lenco or bogen-presto. 

only worried that these classic DD tables will just continue up in value and become more rare.
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mfrench

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Re: ISO: Used Turntable - $100-300 Range - What should I look for?
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2010, 12:46:47 PM »
They are, and they will. With a few hours left on this auction,... it could be interesting to watch the last few seconds of the auction.
The decks that Lencos are compared to commonly run go for $2k->$4k range (Thorens td124 and Garrard 301; look them up on eBay for a heart stopper). I'd give my left dangler for a gray hammered-finish Garrard 301 Grease'r, but, at the tune of nearing $4k,... ain't gonna happen without some stroke of luck.
There was a recent article by Arthur Salvatore ( http://www.high-endaudio.com/RECENT.html#May ), where he praised Lencos over $20k TT's. His was a hot-rodded version, at some gross sum of $6k, in a custom plinth, etc.. But that's all relatively easy to do, and hardly represents $6k worth of anything, except maybe the builders "artist name" inflation.
Since then, there has been the Salvatore effect in motion, and things essentially doubled, especially the 60hz american models.
Bogen-Prestos will save you a few bucks, maybe a hundred, just because the name isn't Lenco, and people are a little slower on the draw on them due to name recognition (lack of). Seriously look that way.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 12:52:44 PM by mfrench »

Offline spcyrfc

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Re: ISO: Used Turntable - $100-300 Range - What should I look for?
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2010, 01:50:37 PM »
and with that post, im in the bidding.  got the roommates to throw down a little cash towards this table.  i put in my high bid and am walking away. 

thanks mike. 
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mfrench

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Re: ISO: Used Turntable - $100-300 Range - What should I look for?
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2010, 02:53:08 PM »
you bet!
I'm excited for you. I can't believe where its at now. They're getting up there.
The Salvatore effect thing that I mentioned was really more noticeable in the Euro 50hz market, where they were at garage sale bargain and charity shop fodder, for free or $5; now, starting at $125. Its silly.
Check craiglist, daily, as they'll show up there occasionally. I missed one by minutes a while ago for $25, so they do still show up as bargains. But its so easy to keep abreast on going prices with the internet now, and all,... there are getting to be less deals around.

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: ISO: Used Turntable - $100-300 Range - What should I look for?
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2010, 04:01:20 PM »
I've done the radio broadcast thing with vinyl.  In that application the powerful motors and tightly coupled drive mechanisms were required to allow proper record cueing, and the ability to instantly bring the vinyl up to speed so it doesn't sound distorted.

I am skeptical about platters bogging down in bass passages.  Obviously that is turntable dependent.  It would be fairly trivial to instrument a TT to measure any "bogging", and I'd be interested to read some test results.

I also have some concerns that massive motors and wheel drive mechanisms transmit too much vibration and rumble.  Those aren't major concerns when tt's are used for broadcast, but they are in critical listening.

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Re: ISO: Used Turntable - $100-300 Range - What should I look for?
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2010, 04:56:49 PM »
At a radio station, you were very likely working with high torque motors and heavy platters, either idler or direct drive driven.
I built my Presto DC motor deck with this strongly in mind. I get to full speed within 1/2 revolution. DC motors are like electric diesels.

Stylus drag can now be easily seen without much effort.
There is a new record weight "clamp" on the market that is used on the center label of the record to hold the record flat, coupling it to the platter.
This new device has a built in chip that is timed such that at 33.3 the device emits a laser pulse that should appear as a still dot on the wall. When the needle is dropped, the dot goes off the scale, flashing elsewhere in the room, until such a time as the platter resumes its 33.3 pacing.
The same occurrence happened when it hits heavy bass influence. The effect of the still dot became more of a dash that drifted into a line (indicating a speed error) towards the slow side of the still dot.
I saw it on a posted video over on another forum. I'll have to find the link. It impressed me.
The demonstration was on a new "high tech" modern belt drive that I would have expected far stronger results from.
Its commonly known that the order of torque strength runs: Idler -> Direct Drive (modern electronics w/ platter attached to motor) -> Belt Drives.  The belt drives suffer the most from bass stylus drag phenomenon.

One of the most immediate and strongest impressions with my first idler was,... wow, this thing has amazing pacing, unwavering. This is a typical reaction that I've read numerous times since.  It didn't take long to sell off my Rega after that. That Rega sale paid for all of my turntable slutiness lately as well :)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 05:03:52 PM by mfrench »

Offline spcyrfc

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Re: ISO: Used Turntable - $100-300 Range - What should I look for?
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2010, 05:04:29 PM »
well, went about 70 bucks over my budget.  i'll consider it an investment in a collec-table, not just a record player. 
mike, could you send me those packing instructions you had mentions?

ltborders@gmail.com

cheers and thanks,  guess i'll be hitting some yardsales this weekend to find some gear on the cheap and slowly build around thisi table. 
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mfrench

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Re: ISO: Used Turntable - $100-300 Range - What should I look for?
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2010, 05:06:08 PM »
you won it?

I'm prepping the instructions. Check back!
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 05:07:55 PM by mfrench »

 

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