Topic: New Playback Questions: Source (?) > PHP-850 preamp > HCA-1200II amp > VR-4's

[thegreatgumbino]

Edit:  Figured I should avoid creating another post, so I modified the original post to add some questions about the playback source.

Picked up a pair of original Von Schweikert VR-4's finally.  Now to figure out what kind of cables I need for these. 

1) All I need are the speaker cables for these, correct?  There is not a power cable, or is there?
2) Can anyone post some up close pictures of the rear of these speakers? 
3) The binding posts will accept spade or banana plugs, correct?
4) Anyone have an online copy of the owner's manual that I can read up on before they get here?
5) Any current owners have any insight on operation/lessons learned?  I know I need to bi-wire them, but haven't figured out how to do that yet.

[thegreatgumbino]

Michael...
are you running biwires, or shotguns to your 4jrs?
VSA told me the *must* be shotgun'd.  , or use two seperate pairs.

when I went from a single wire / jumper combo on m vr4s to running two pairs of cables, the difference was immediate, and huge.

What is the difference between a bi-wire & shotgun approach?  Anyone have any picture of a bi-wire setup to help out a noob?

[Nick's Picks]

what you need to do is get two pairs of cables, so you are wiring all of the cabinets independently.  It all then terminates together at the amp.  This is essentially the shotgun config, as I understand it (?).  This is the only way to fly.  Might as well do it right the first time.  The binding posts take anything you got.  spades, bananas  bare wires....etc.
You can use a jumper as well.  a cable that runs from the monitor cab to the bass cab.  and then a normal speaker wire into the  monitor (always go in the monitor w/a single wire approach, and jump down from there).
The distance between the two sets of posts is like 30", so bi-wire is not happening unless they are custom built. 
If you want to get out of it cheap, just go the DIY route and use the Home Depot power cable.  that shit sounds pretty smooth, imo.  Then you can get 4 separate lengths of it to your requirements.  Stuff it in some Techflex to cover it all up....you can make all look purdy and get the job done for cheap this way.  Even running bare wire.  what the hell?  one less piece' da resistance.


lessons learned?  toe them in more than you think.  almost pointing at you.  I had mine pointing to the outside of my head, or around my shoulder.  Do the white noise test to dial them in.
space them out around 10' or so, + or - 2'.  Sit back at equal distance...put on Stevie Wonders "Livin' for the City" at high volume and marvel at the massive amount of air these speakers can throw around.
sick eh?

[Nick's Picks]

+T for getting a true full range reference speaker!
viva la VR4

[carlbeck]

I am running a shotgun pair on my Jr's, I replaced a bi-wire pair & the shotgun's sound better. The bi-wire set up uses the same strand split for two leads at the end where the shotgun uses two entirely seperate cables into one end (in a nutshell)

[thegreatgumbino]

I was planning on using the shotgun approach, i.e. two sets of cables (spades) stacked at the amp.  One pair run to each cabinet.  I'm going to start with the HD cable for the speaker runs.  Am I correct in thinking that I can use standard 22 or 24 gauge cables for interconnects? 

What if I skipped the HD cord route and tried using the silver clad teflon cables that I've been using for mic cables?  Theoretically, I could combine multiple runs of the 2 conductor 24 awg cable to achieve a heavier gauge cable.  Eight each of the 24 awg is a cummulative 15 gauge cable, IIRC.  I think that would mean four conductors to both the (+) & (-) connectors for a total of 8 conductors.  My question would be how running 4 separate cables all with twisted pairs, shielded, and housed in teflon would communicate with each other? 

I've also got some 24 awg 4 conductor cable that I could use, so theoretically I could use 2 runs of this material to achieve the 15 awg gauge and then use one run for (+) and one for (-).  Once again, not sure how running the (+) and (-) conductors in separate housings would communicate.

It looks like this guy used the HD cord method and ran one cord length for (+) and one for (-), so they aren't shielded together.

http://www.theanalogdept.com/hd14.htm

The speakers are coming without spikes, which I won't need because they are going on laminates.  Anyone run them on hardwoods/laminates that can offer up advice on how to isolate them?  I talked to Albert V.S. last week, and he mentioned that some users have had good experiences cutting the rubber super balls in half & setting the speakers on these.  I image that would be stable enough considering the weight of these.

[thegreatgumbino]

Edit:  Figured I should avoid creating another post, so I modified the original post to add some questions about the playback source.

Alright, more questions.  I'v got my playback gear all in line with the exception of the cables (discussed above) & source.  I tried to pick up a Pioneer Elite DV-45a today off of Agon, but after the purchase they tested it out and it's faulty.  Back to zero.  That got me thinking, I'm looking for viable options for a playback source.  Do I spend ~$250 to $300 on a 24bit universal dvd player or try to go disc-less with a HD based system?  The playback system so far is:

Source (?) > Denon Tuner > PHP-850 preamp > HCA-1200II amp > Von Schweikert original VR-4's

Option #1:  Get a Pioneer Elite DV-45a / Denon 2200 or similar type dvd player and be done with it.  Cost = $250 to $300.

Option #2:  Use the Firewire Audiophile 24/96 sound card I have and my iMac and pursue a HD based system.  The stereo will be set up downstairs, and the computer is upstairs, so I'd have to pick up a Squeezebox to send the data wirelessly.  Cost = $290.  I think the squeezbox is all I would need to be up and running.  This wouldn't be a true HD based system since I'd be playing back CD's / DVD's through my computer due to the fact that I only have 160gb of space and no backup.  But, it would be the first step towards a HD system.

Option #3:  Build a HD enclosure music server to incorporate into the system.  Cost ??  No idea what this would entail, but I'm sure it would cost more and take more time to put together.

[Nick's Picks]

the source dilemma is my most common one too.

a GREAT deck..class A redbook , SACD and DVD-A playback would be great.  Never have to worry about anything else other than the burning, cataloging and maintaining of a collection.  IMO, the most expensive option.  You can spend shitloads on a great deck.  Those models you mention are good and all, but they wouldn't hold up to something like a Shanling SACD player, the T300 or something else of that class.  You start spending $2k + on decks and then you can get some shit.
anyone ever try out the dennon 5200 ?  I bet those analog outputs sound nice.
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1170602481
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1172949982
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1171614478
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1172451358
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1170010108 (good deal!)

the HDD route, you just need a good DAC., and that basicaly nails it.  a great DAC is just like that great class A deck.  You can feed it anything (sans SACD), from any deck or PC or hand-held type thing.  I use a 2m glass toslink cable to connect my $24 chainteck 24/96 card direct to my DAC.  viola.
Control that PC over the network, and use my laptop as a remote.    Pretty sweet.

The SB3 could be cool too.  Small, tight package that sounds good out of the box.  tons of MODs...but, imo, a pricey way to get music off of a computer.

[thegreatgumbino]

the source dilemma is my most common one too.

a GREAT deck..class A redbook , SACD and DVD-A playback would be great.  Never have to worry about anything else other than the burning, cataloging and maintaining of a collection.  IMO, the most expensive option.  You can spend shitloads on a great deck.  Those models you mention are good and all, but they wouldn't hold up to something like a Shanling SACD player, the T300 or something else of that class.  You start spending $2k + on decks and then you can get some shit.
anyone ever try out the dennon 5200 ?  I bet those analog outputs sound nice.
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1170602481
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1172949982
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1171614478
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1172451358
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1170010108 (good deal!)

the HDD route, you just need a good DAC., and that basicaly nails it.  a great DAC is just like that great class A deck.  You can feed it anything (sans SACD), from any deck or PC or hand-held type thing.  I use a 2m glass toslink cable to connect my $24 chainteck 24/96 card direct to my DAC.  viola.
Control that PC over the network, and use my laptop as a remote.    Pretty sweet.

The SB3 could be cool too.  Small, tight package that sounds good out of the box.  tons of MODs...but, imo, a pricey way to get music off of a computer.

I'm not looking for anything outrageous.  Don't have the $$$$.  Budget is along the lines of $350 max.

So you're running your laptop as the source > sound card > DAC, Nick?  I've got a work laptop (that I can use for personal use), but it doesn't have a firewire port.  Therefore, I'd have to get a new 24 bit external USB soundcard or a DAC.  A decent DAC is going to run upwards of $500, no?

[Nick's Picks]

nope, my laptop is the remote, using VNC to control a "dummy" PC that has some big drives in it.  that has the digi output which then goes into my stereo. 

[MattD]

nope, my laptop is the remote, using VNC to control a "dummy" PC that has some big drives in it.  that has the digi output which then goes into my stereo. 

We have the same setup, Nick.

[BC]

nope, my laptop is the remote, using VNC to control a "dummy" PC that has some big drives in it.  that has the digi output which then goes into my stereo. 

what is VNC? That sounds like a nice idea. I need to have a box with mega-storage hard drive action.   

[cshepherd]

Matt,
Most speaker cables are not shielded.  Some cable companies have engineered speaker cables with shielding, but you may want to do little research on the internets about shielded speaker cables before going that route.  Whichever you decide on, using eight separate cables in a bii-wire setup will not pose any problems. 

I would recommend using a set of spades and a set of banana plugs (on each channel) at the amp end.  I think it's an easier connection to make and possibly a little more secure. 

Chris

[Nick's Picks]

vnc
virtual network computing
www.realvnc.com
awesome remote control freeware.  multi platform..etc etc.

[thegreatgumbino]

Matt,
Most speaker cables are not shielded.  Some cable companies have engineered speaker cables with shielding, but you may want to do little research on the internets about shielded speaker cables before going that route.  Whichever you decide on, using eight separate cables in a bii-wire setup will not pose any problems. 

I would recommend using a set of spades and a set of banana plugs (on each channel) at the amp end.  I think it's an easier connection to make and possibly a little more secure. 

Chris

Thanks for the info, Chris.  +T

I've been reading up since my post & decided to stick with the HD cable for starters.  I need to read up some more on the possibilities of using the silver for speaker cables.  The thing I'm still uncertain of re: the HD cables is the conductor assignments.  Lots of talk about two conductors to the (+) and one to the (-) vs. one conductor to the (+) and two to the (-) vs. one conductor to both the (+) and the (-) and floating one cable, etc., etc., etc.

Am I correct in that the 22 awg silver clad cable will be sufficient for the interconnects, though?  I read something along these lines today, but can't remember the specifics.