Topic: Metalhead stealth taper here - need some suggestions

[j4g3rb0mb3d]

Hi all, long time lurker, first time poster.

Back in the day, I used to stealth tape metal shows using a Sony MR-R700 Minidisc player and recorder along with pair of Core Sound Low Cost Binaural microphones with the low sensitivity option. My tapings of outdoor festivals sounded great, but at indoor venues the audio quality was usually garbage because of bass distortion.

Now that my ex and I have parted ways, I've been going to waaaayyy more shows that I have for the past 10 years or so, and I'm looking to start taping again. A lot of the bands that I'm into are starting to get older, so my opportunities to tape them are starting to dwindle. The stars have aligned, and in the next two months or so, I'm seeing 9 bands from my youth. The venues range from 300 person clubs, to midsize 1500 person theaters, to larger ballrooms that hold 5000 people. Later on in the summer, I have 3 outdoor festivals, possibly 4, that I'm going to that I'll most likely be taping at. I'm looking to upgrade my equipment so that I can get some decent, preferably better than decent recordings.

1. I'm going to purchase a Sony M10 - I'm done with Minidiscs. I recently ripped the recordings off of my old Minidiscs, and there are some skips from moving around, getting moshed into, etc.
2. Should I get a preamp or a battery box? Would either help with reducing bass distortion?
3. Should I upgrade the microphones that I already have? They seem nice, and I paid about 100 bucks for them 11 years ago.
4. Should I have to get either a preamp or a battery box, as well as new microphones, I'm looking to purchase from CA. How long does it take for CA to ship, and would you recommend Omni or Cardiod microphones? I have a show coming up on 1/22/16, so I don't have a ton of time to wait for equipment. Would you recommend anything else as an alternative should CA's build and ship time take too long?

Thanks in advance for the help, all.

[nulldogmas]

I used CSBs with a battery box with bass rolloff for years (including plenty of guitar rock shows, though not metal), and got fine results. If you want to start by picking up a basic box that will roll off below 100Hz or so, I expect you'll get good results with the CSBs and the M10.

I actually expect you'd probably get good results with a battery box *without* rolloff as well, since the M10 doesn't distort easily. (And you can then reduce the bass via EQ in post.) But if you're picking one up anyway, it doesn't hurt to get that feature.

[down2earthlandscaper]

Hi all, long time lurker, first time poster.

Back in the day, I used to stealth tape metal shows using a Sony MR-R700 Minidisc player and recorder along with pair of Core Sound Low Cost Binaural microphones with the low sensitivity option. My tapings of outdoor festivals sounded great, but at indoor venues the audio quality was usually garbage because of bass distortion.

Now that my ex and I have parted ways, I've been going to waaaayyy more shows that I have for the past 10 years or so, and I'm looking to start taping again. A lot of the bands that I'm into are starting to get older, so my opportunities to tape them are starting to dwindle. The stars have aligned, and in the next two months or so, I'm seeing 9 bands from my youth. The venues range from 300 person clubs, to midsize 1500 person theaters, to larger ballrooms that hold 5000 people. Later on in the summer, I have 3 outdoor festivals, possibly 4, that I'm going to that I'll most likely be taping at. I'm looking to upgrade my equipment so that I can get some decent, preferably better than decent recordings.

1. I'm going to purchase a Sony M10 - I'm done with Minidiscs. I recently ripped the recordings off of my old Minidiscs, and there are some skips from moving around, getting moshed into, etc.
2. Should I get a preamp or a battery box? Would either help with reducing bass distortion?
3. Should I upgrade the microphones that I already have? They seem nice, and I paid about 100 bucks for them 11 years ago.
4. Should I have to get either a preamp or a battery box, as well as new microphones, I'm looking to purchase from CA. How long does it take for CA to ship, and would you recommend Omni or Cardiod microphones? I have a show coming up on 1/22/16, so I don't have a ton of time to wait for equipment. Would you recommend anything else as an alternative should CA's build and ship time take too long?

Thanks in advance for the help, all.

Build and ship time has been lengthy for CA products, in my personal experience. Great products, I highly recommend them - but if you need something by January 22nd it's doubtful that you'd get them in time. You might want to email Chris and ask about that. Maybe if he has some already built he could make it happen? There has been a lot of Church Audio gear in Yardsale recently. It would be well worth checking out.
An alternative would be AT853's - Ted or Darktrain often have great deals on the AT853 packages. And ship very quickly.
If your looking for extremely small and discrete mics  , the CAFS are incredible.

I do think that a battery box or preamp will help the mics to handle higher SPL's.

[fandelive]

Hello,

if you used to plug your low-cost CSB's directly into the mic-in of your Sony MD, what you got was not bass distortion but brickwalling IMHO.
Sony MDs integrated preamps used to be pretty poor and unable to handle high SPLs.

Adding a battery-box to your rig is a minimum. It will increase the SPL threshold your mics can handle.
Then, plug your mics > battery-box > line-in of your recording device.

With that being said, I can't guarantee you won't get any bass distortion. I have never owned any CSB's myself, but their are built using cheap Panasonic capsules and they are subject to bass distortion.
I taped a few indoor rock shows using Giant Squid omnis (which are built using the same caps) + battery box and got bass distortion.

The fact is that you might get a clean recording if you don't stand too close to the speakers, but then you'll get a distant, boomy and crowd noisy recording instead. (I'm talking indoor).
Stealth omnis are aimed to be used to tape front of stacks to avoid unwanted crowd noise and bad room reverb. So if you still want to use omnis, you need to get a better pair of mics.
Omnis work great in small clubs if you can stand in front of a speaker.

I'd go for a mic upgrade. AT 853's would be a great choice if you still want a budget rig. Ask for low-sensivity caps (tell the seller/builder you want to record loud metal shows).

I'm a happy user of a CA-9100 preamp. I know alot of people here will suggest a pair of Church Audio's as great starter mics, but I still have to hear a good sounding stealth tape made with them.
Might come from the fact they are mainly used by beginners, or maybe I don't like their sound (but that's all a matter of personal tastes).

Happy taping

[daspyknows]

I can guarantee this rig would meet your needs. 

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=175849.0

Join the team.  FWIW I have no skin in this game.

[ilduclo]

For now, stick with the csb's and, yes, you need a battery box to keep distortion at bay. When it's time to upgrade go with the AT's which have better wiring than csb's or ca's. High end stuff only unless you've got a rich uncle. Lastly, post your new recordings up on line for others to enjoy (and critique).  Happy new year!

Jacks suggestion below would also be a great suggestion for new mics. Soundpro is a really well run company, service wise. I've run their battery box for 8 years with one repair!

[acidjack]

I would go to SoundProfessionals and hook up a new pair of their mics -- which they can get you by the 22nd -- along with a battery box. They have a new set of Beyerdynamic-based small cardiods that are going to be perfect for your needs (based on what we've heard so far).

[j4g3rb0mb3d]

Thank you all for the responses.

I'll be sure to post up my recordings.

The shows I'm going to are:
Tool \ Primus
Lamb of God \ Anthrax
Metallica \ Cage The Elephant - Probably only going to tape CTE
Slayer \ Testament \ Carcass
Megadeth \ Suicidal Tendencies \ Children of Bodom \ Havok

Should make for some good recordings!

[lsd2525]

Be careful at that Tool show.......

[j4g3rb0mb3d]

Be careful at that Tool show.......

First time going to a Tool show, but do they have a rep for busting tapers? I can only imagine that they outsource security.

[lsd2525]

I've only heard stories, but I think their security actively tries to bust tapers.

[opsopcopolis]

Be careful at that Tool show.......

First time going to a Tool show, but do they have a rep for busting tapers? I can only imagine that they outsource security.

Yes to both of those.
Outsourced security that is actively looking for tapers. That being said, it's pretty easy to be discrete these days. 

Also not sure what the above comment about no good stealth church audio recordings is about. I've made and heard plenty of great sounding stealth CA recordings. His build time can be quite long though

[yltfan]

If you can find some used AT 853's (with the 4.7 mod) and a CA 9100 or 9200, I think you will be quite pleased with what you can pull. I still have some of those same Core Sounds, and the 853's would be a big improvement. Or plunk down the cabbage for that Schoeps rig!

[ilduclo]

I use a battery box only, I have an old soundprofessionals 9v (model 3) that's a great unit. I bought a "church ugly" box, but haven't needed to use it since the SP box is so solid.

I have never needed a preamp and I record some soft sounding classical type stuff, too. I use a sony d50. I use mic in all the time, including for the Melvins and other really loud shows. So, I set my recorder volume at 2 or 3 for those shows and keep the mic attenuation switch on the side of the d50 at -20 db. I like to keep all my standard settings the same, instead of messing around with anything else other than the recorder volume. Keeps it simple, I guess. It's been working pretty good, I haven't had any shows to speak of that I recorded with distortion in a LONG time, but have recorded a few at too low a setting once in a while....

a couple more reccos from my side are 

record some shows you don't care about for a while, go to a lot of local shows or whatever to see how you're doing before you go see one that you really want to get correct. So, get the bugs worked out on a couple of crap shows first.

record at 24 bit

save your raw recordings so if you mess up the processing, you can go back and start over

please post what you get on line and there will always be someone here who will be willing to critique it.

[j4g3rb0mb3d]

I use a battery box only, I have an old soundprofessionals 9v (model 3) that's a great unit. I bought a "church ugly" box, but haven't needed to use it since the SP box is so solid.

I have never needed a preamp and I record some soft sounding classical type stuff, too. I use a sony d50. I use mic in all the time, including for the Melvins and other really loud shows. So, I set my recorder volume at 2 or 3 for those shows and keep the mic attenuation switch on the side of the d50 at -20 db. I like to keep all my standard settings the same, instead of messing around with anything else other than the recorder volume. Keeps it simple, I guess. It's been working pretty good, I haven't had any shows to speak of that I recorded with distortion in a LONG time, but have recorded a few at too low a setting once in a while....

a couple more reccos from my side are 

record some shows you don't care about for a while, go to a lot of local shows or whatever to see how you're doing before you go see one that you really want to get correct. So, get the bugs worked out on a couple of crap shows first.

record at 24 bit

save your raw recordings so if you mess up the processing, you can go back and start over

please post what you get on line and there will always be someone here who will be willing to critique it.

What mics do you use?

I actually have two "test" shows lined up to test out equipment.

[ilduclo]

dpa 4061's, they'll handle ANYTHING and it usually sounds great. I bought mine offa EBay, what they call the Broadway sellers, formerly used in Broadway plays. I maintain mine were owned by Tommy Tune, thusly they are looking good even for their age. BTW. don't discount the use of your on board mics on the m10. A friend of mine in Mexico City uses them exclusively and gets some pretty good results. He goes by black orchid on Dime a Dozen

here's a recent show he did with m10 internals, I think it sounds GREAT!

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=549684

[nulldogmas]

The M10 internals may not be a disaster in a pinch, but if you have pretty much any external mics, you're going to get better results.

Nothing against the 4061s, but since you already have omnis (your CSBs), I'd strongly recommend picking up a pair of cardioids as an alternate. (Acidjack's recommendation of hitting up Sound Professionals for both cards and a battery box is an excellent one, though I haven't heard that particular set of mics.) That way you have options for two very different recording situations. That and a whole bunch of trial and error should go a long way toward helping you figure out if you're happy with the results you're getting, or want to go down the slippery slope of endless upgrades.

[j4g3rb0mb3d]

I've made my purchases:

The Sony M10:
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-PCM-M10-Portable-Recorder-microSDHC/dp/B00R6S0T7S/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1451560516&sr=1-2&keywords=sony+m10+recorder

Premium Cardioid Beyerdynamic Stereo Microphones:
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/MS-CMC-26

Micro-mini microphone power supply with adjustable bass roll off:
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-SPSB-11

I'll be sure to let you all know how it works out for me. Thank you again for all of the suggestions.

[beatkilla]

Sounds like a great setup.My only concern is we still dont know if the SP beyers need the 4.7 k mod or not.

[nulldogmas]

Looks outstanding! Very interested to hear how the CMC-26s fare in a loud rock environment.

[acidjack]

Nice job. Also, remember to NOT use that bass rolloff -- always better to do that stuff in post.

[SxPxDxCx]

Always happy to see more tapers of metal and other heavy stuff

[j4g3rb0mb3d]

Always happy to see more tapers of metal and other heavy stuff

I was actually checking out your Riot Fest recordings last night. I'm from Chicago, and was at the Chicago Riot Fest this past year. I'm really feeling fortunate to have seen Motorhead for the last time, but am kicking myself for not recording it. Oh well.

[j4g3rb0mb3d]

Sounds like a great setup.My only concern is we still dont know if the SP beyers need the 4.7 k mod or not.

I should have mentioned that I did get the low sensitivity option. We'll know soon enough.

[SxPxDxCx]

Always happy to see more tapers of metal and other heavy stuff

I was actually checking out your Riot Fest recordings last night. I'm from Chicago, and was at the Chicago Riot Fest this past year. I'm really feeling fortunate to have seen Motorhead for the last time, but am kicking myself for not recording it. Oh well.

Yeah I was bummed that they canceled in Denver.  I'd seen Motorhead a bunch of times before though.  RIP Lemmy

[nulldogmas]

Nice job. Also, remember to NOT use that bass rolloff -- always better to do that stuff in post.

Fight! Fight!

(Actually, running 24-bit on the M10, you should have plenty of headroom to not use the rolloff. But I personally wouldn't say that you should absolutely *never* use it, if it seems like it'll accomplish what you'd do in post anyway.)

[ilduclo]

looks like a good setup!

[pillowman]

I've made my purchases:

Sony M10
Premium Cardioid Beyerdynamic Stereo Microphones
Micro-mini microphone power supply with adjustable bass roll off

I'll be sure to let you all know how it works out for me. Thank you again for all of the suggestions.

curious to hear some samples and reports after your first try,
our board still needs some facts how this little beyers work for loud rock stuff, ...
good luck and happy taping !
cheers
pillowman
.
www.openingtime.lima-city.de
.

[earmonger]

Do remember that the cardioids are directional, so you have less leeway to move around than you did with the CS Binaurals. They should always be facing the best sound source  (which might be the stacks, not the stage), and you'll get variations in volume  if you swing around. So don't mount them on your glasses if you are going to be headbanging  

[TimeBandit]

My new  Rig:
Sony PCM-M10 + SP-SPSB-4 microphone plug-in power supply +  SP-CMC8 with Low Sens mod mounted on croakies

(pillowman: Ran the last Evi Vine shows with that rig great result even without EQ. for the Acoustic Sixtina Recording i went into mic in instead of line in)

[Gutbucket]

As those Beyerdynamic cardioids have not been around for long and users here aren't familiar with them, we don't really know yet how low the bass response of the microphones goes with a relatively flat response before beginning to roll off.  All cardioids roll-off at some point, only pressure-omnis are flat down to the very lowest frequencies, so these new Beyer cardioids will definitely pickup less really-low bass than your omnis, and are likely to also pickup less of the very bottom of the music you are recording, which is typically somewhat higher in frequency than that really-low extended omni response. The bottom of that actual bass response of the music in the venue is higher in frequency than the start of the effective roll off of some cardioids- typically higher-cost phantom-powered mics- but lower than the inherent roll-off of many miniature cardioids.  You'll need to make some test recordings to determine if the inherent cardioid bass roll off of the Beyers is sufficient on it's own to bring the lows into proper balance when recording in a situation with "too much bass".   If it is then great, you don't need to correct the bass response further. 

If there is still too much bass, you can either record at a low enough level to not overload while recording, then adjust the bass afterwards using EQ on the computer, raising the overall level of the music after doing that to something reasonable.  That's the most accurate and best sounding way to do it, and why Acidjack and myself recommend doing it that way.  The other option is to use the bass rolloff on the preamp to do something similar.  That's less ideal because you have no control over the shape and placement of the bass reduction EQ curve, but doing it that way may eliminate the need to do the EQ manipulation later on the computer.  Depends on how particular you are about getting the music sounding it's best verses the effort involved.  If minimal effort without making EQ adjustments later is more important to you, hopefully one of the variable bass roll-off options on the preamp will be acceptable enough.  If going that route, make test recordings with the bass roll-off switch on the preamp in each position, starting with no roll-off at all, and choose the one which sounds best.  That should be the roll-off switch position which reduces the low bass just enough- any more will begin to sound thin, weak and powerless- not very appropriate to the musical style.

Keep in mind that "boominess" is often higher in frequency than the very lowest musical parts, so bass roll-off is not a very good tool for dealing with that in a full stereo mix or audience recording.  A very high bass roll-off will cut the boominess, but also all the bass and kick below that range.  That's why EQ is preferable to a low-cut filter (bass roll-off is a low-cut filter).  We can dial in an EQ curve which reduces a problematic "boom" region more than the bass below that region, yet still reduces all the bass range somewhat compared to the frequencies above that, instead of hacking off everything off completely below a certain frequency range.

[j4g3rb0mb3d]

My new  Rig:
Sony PCM-M10 + SP-SPSB-4 microphone plug-in power supply +  SP-CMC8 with Low Sens mod mounted on croakies

(pillowman: Ran the last Evi Vine shows with that rig great result even without EQ. for the Acoustic Sixtina Recording i went into mic in instead of line in)

Can you snap a picture of this on its side? I'm quite curious to see how much wider the box is than the M10.

I almost bought the SP-SPSB-4.

[j4g3rb0mb3d]

As those Beyerdynamic cardioids have not been around for long and users here aren't familiar with them, we don't really know yet how low the bass response of the microphones goes with a relatively flat response before beginning to roll off.  All cardioids roll-off at some point, only pressure-omnis are flat down to the very lowest frequencies, so these new Beyer cardioids will definitely pickup less really-low bass than your omnis, and are likely to also pickup less of the very bottom of the music you are recording, which is typically somewhat higher in frequency than that really-low extended omni response. The bottom of that actual bass response of the music in the venue is higher in frequency than the start of the effective roll off of some cardioids- typically higher-cost phantom-powered mics- but lower than the inherent roll-off of many miniature cardioids.  You'll need to make some test recordings to determine if the inherent cardioid bass roll off of the Beyers is sufficient on it's own to bring the lows into proper balance when recording in a situation with "too much bass".   If it is then great, you don't need to correct the bass response further. 

If there is still too much bass, you can either record at a low enough level to not overload while recording, then adjust the bass afterwards using EQ on the computer, raising the overall level of the music after doing that to something reasonable.  That's the most accurate and best sounding way to do it, and why Acidjack and myself recommend doing it that way.  The other option is to use the bass rolloff on the preamp to do something similar.  That's less ideal because you have no control over the shape and placement of the bass reduction EQ curve, but doing it that way may eliminate the need to do the EQ manipulation later on the computer.  Depends on how particular you are about getting the music sounding it's best verses the effort involved.  If minimal effort without making EQ adjustments later is more important to you, hopefully one of the variable bass roll-off options on the preamp will be acceptable enough.  If going that route, make test recordings with the bass roll-off switch on the preamp in each position, starting with no roll-off at all, and choose the one which sounds best.  That should be the roll-off switch position which reduces the low bass just enough- any more will begin to sound thin, weak and powerless- not very appropriate to the musical style.

Keep in mind that "boominess" is often higher in frequency than the very lowest musical parts, so bass roll-off is not a very good tool for dealing with that in a full stereo mix or audience recording.  A very high bass roll-off will cut the boominess, but also all the bass and kick below that range.  That's why EQ is preferable to a low-cut filter (bass roll-off is a low-cut filter).  We can dial in an EQ curve which reduces a problematic "boom" region more than the bass below that region, yet still reduces all the bass range somewhat compared to the frequencies above that, instead of hacking off everything off completely below a certain frequency range.

Awesome information here, thank you for posting this.

[j4g3rb0mb3d]

Alrighty everyone, got my first gig taped since purchasing the new equipment:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=176007.0
AND
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=176006.0

I'd love any and all feedback! Thanks!

[down2earthlandscaper]

I use a battery box only, I have an old soundprofessionals 9v (model 3) that's a great unit. I bought a "church ugly" box, but haven't needed to use it since the SP box is so solid.

I have never needed a preamp and I record some soft sounding classical type stuff, too. I use a sony d50. I use mic in all the time, including for the Melvins and other really loud shows. So, I set my recorder volume at 2 or 3 for those shows and keep the mic attenuation switch on the side of the d50 at -20 db. I like to keep all my standard settings the same, instead of messing around with anything else other than the recorder volume. Keeps it simple, I guess. It's been working pretty good, I haven't had any shows to speak of that I recorded with distortion in a LONG time, but have recorded a few at too low a setting once in a while....

a couple more reccos from my side are 

record some shows you don't care about for a while, go to a lot of local shows or whatever to see how you're doing before you go see one that you really want to get correct. So, get the bugs worked out on a couple of crap shows first.

record at 24 bit

save your raw recordings so if you mess up the processing, you can go back and start over

please post what you get on line and there will always be someone here who will be willing to critique it.

PM me if you want to part with your CA UBB 

[EWizard]

Alrighty everyone, got my first gig taped since purchasing the new equipment:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=176007.0
AND
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=176006.0

I'd love any and all feedback! Thanks!

Are you happy with the setup?
And, how do you get the setlist if you're unfamiliar with the band?

[ilduclo]

I think they sound pretty good, I listened to a couple tracks off of each set. Suggestion,  get closer to the stacks, which could help with loud audience. To my ears it sounded balanced but a little thin. Boost midrange?

[nulldogmas]

I think they sound pretty good, I listened to a couple tracks off of each set. Suggestion,  get closer to the stacks, which could help with loud audience. To my ears it sounded balanced but a little thin. Boost midrange?

I'll go with "clear but a little thin" as well, which is partly the cardioid mics but only partly. Where were you set up for these in what kind of room, and how were the mics positioned?

[j4g3rb0mb3d]

Reggie's only has a capacity of 111 people. It's a very small venue. I was up in the balcony, mic's pointed at the stack, and the mic's were clipped to the rail of the balcony all night. They were spaced out approximately a foot apart.

[ilduclo]

looks like a nice venue!

[nulldogmas]

Reggie's only has a capacity of 111 people. It's a very small venue. I was up in the balcony, mic's pointed at the stack, and the mic's were clipped to the rail of the balcony all night. They were spaced out approximately a foot apart.

That may be part of the thinness: If a lot of the guitar and bass sound was coming direct from the amps instead of from the stack, you'd expect it to be lower in the mix.

[j4g3rb0mb3d]

looks like a nice venue!

Reggie's is my favorite place to catch a show. It's a very intimate experience, and you're always close up to the stage if you want to be. I've seen plenty of bands there, like Devin Townsend, Havok, Death Angel, 3 Inches of Blood, the list goes on and on. Ear plugs are a must there.