Topic: tascam DR701d or DR70d

[myotis]

There is obviously a reasonable amount of interest here in the DR70d, but with little mention of the DR701.

I want a recorder in the DR70/701 format for use with a DSLR, for  ambient natural sounds, and for bird song recording with a parabolic reflector. I can afford the DR70, and could push myself to the DR701, but I'm not sure what to do. Whatever I buy, I don't visualise "upgrading" anytime soon, so would rather go for the 701 if that is seen as more future proof. But would also be much happier spending less.

If you were buying new today, would you spend the extra on the 701, or go for the 70. 

I already have a Sony M10, but would like the Tascam for the format and the XLR connectors.

Any advice appreciated.

Many thanks,

Graham

[Brian G]

Have you looked at the DR-40?  Unless you want 4 channels.

[myotis]

Have you looked at the DR-40?  Unless you want 4 channels.

Hello Brian,

No I haven't, but I did when I bought the sony M10. 

I possibly should have been more explicit in what I meant by "format".  I want something that will mount under the camera when used with DSLR and that can be run from a bag when I am using the Parabolic reflector.

I have used a few different approaches with the sony M10, and have used "over the shoulder" marantz recorders in the past, so I am confident I want this style of recorder.

I might want  4 channels as recording ambient sound, along with shotgun/parabolic captured sound is something I would like to do. But that could be done with the Sony plus a second recorder.

Having said all that, I am interested in why you suggest the DR-40 over the DR70/701.

Thanks,

Graham

[aaronji]

The 701 has better specs, if Tascam can be trusted on that front, which may be of benefit in your application.  Made out of metal, too...

[myotis]

The 701 has better specs, if Tascam can be trusted on that front, which may be of benefit in your application.  Made out of metal, too...

Yes, on the spec front, the 701 has some video specific features that would seem to be worthwhile, and monitoring individual tracks sounds useful, but often things that sound useful, turn out not to be that useful in practice.  I am guessing that the slightly better pre-amps aren't seen as that important, which I assume is because the 70D pre-amps are "good enough"  Certainly at my level of sound expertise, I am sure they would be good enough !.

Thanks,

Graham

[voltronic]

On paper, the 701D seems like a relatively poor value unless you absolutely need the HDMI camera triggering and timecode input (no timecode generator).

The lower-cost Tascam's are a better value overall, I think.  Besides the 70D and DR-40, the 60D is on sale all the time now.

Here's the thing though - if you're doing ambient / bird song, you're going to want something with preamps that have very low noise at very high gain, and that means a higher class of equipment.  That should be your #1 priority here.  All of those Tascams will have unacceptable noise for you at the highest gain levels.  If you weren't doing ambient recording, I'd say the 60D or 70D would be the way to go, but I don't think you'll be satisfied with the preamps and I doubt the 701D preamps are going to be that much quieter than the 70D, even though its specs are a little bit better.

The cheapest way for you to go is to look for a used Sound Devices MixPre  / Shure FP-24 preamp on eBay for $300-$400, which you connect to your M10 with a mini stereo cable.  I have that setup, and it works great.  More gain than you will ever need, and very, very low noise even when you crank the level.  You'll have to use the Tape Out on the MixPre/FP24 with the M10 which will deliver 56dB max gain, but that gain level will be actually quiet enough to use for your purposes, as opposed to the Tascams which will deliver that much gain but have all kinds of noise in there along with it.

You can't do an under-camera mount this way, but you could use a small shoulder bag or backpack like this.  I do a lot of marching band recording in the fall, and I sometimes use the FP-24 > M10 in a backpack while using a monopod to hold my camera and mics.  You could also look for a MixPre-D which has the DSLR plate, but it's much more expensive and and you'd still have to mount the M10 somewhere.

If you need this to be a one-box solution, I'd keep saving my money and get a used SD 701 or 744, which are going for a little over $1k right now.  There's also the Zoom F8 (one for sale in the YS right now) but I haven't seen any reviews of how quiet its preamps are when cranked all the way, since most people here typically aren't doing that.  It would allow you the under-camera setup though.

[aaronji]

The 701 has better specs, if Tascam can be trusted on that front, which may be of benefit in your application.  Made out of metal, too...

Yes, on the spec front, the 701 has some video specific features that would seem to be worthwhile, and monitoring individual tracks sounds useful, but often things that sound useful, turn out not to be that useful in practice.  I am guessing that the slightly better pre-amps aren't seen as that important, which I assume is because the 70D pre-amps are "good enough"  Certainly at my level of sound expertise, I am sure they would be good enough !.

Thanks,

Graham

I was referring specifically to the noise and distortion specs (although the maximum signal levels are also of interest to many here); they are considerably better on the 701.  Really, the 701 is more-or-less in the middle, assuming Tascam's numbers are accurate, between the 70 and the SD 702.  For quiet stuff, that will be audible...

[2manyrocks]

The 70d caught on here like wildfire for a time because it offers 4xlr inputs with phantom power in a small case and initially could be had for under $200.  I am not sure if the market was saturated before the 701 came out, if cardgate scared other buyers or if the 701 is just still priced too high for TS members because I only remember one member buying a 701. 

That HDMI feature is useless unless your DSLR outputs time code via HDMI. 

Whether the 70d is good enough for your song bird recording, I think you would want input from someone who has used it for that purpose. 

What parabolic dish and microphone would you be using?  I doubt any of us have a dish, but maybe someone here could do a sample ambient outdoor recording?  Would that help?  Can you make a dish or do you have to buy one?

Please check but I believe BH photo has a 30 day return policy if the 70d doesn't work for you.

[myotis]

The cheapest way for you to go is to look for a used Sound Devices MixPre  / Shure FP-24 preamp on eBay for $300-$400, which you connect to your M10 with a mini stereo cable.  I have that setup, and it works great.  More gain than you will ever need, and very, very low noise even when you crank the level.  You'll have to use the Tape Out on the MixPre/FP24 with the M10 which will deliver 56dB max gain, but that gain level will be actually quiet enough to use for your purposes, as opposed to the Tascams which will deliver that much gain but have all kinds of noise in there along with it.

The need for very low noise had crossed my mind, but I am trying to balance cost, quality and convenience (isn't everyone), and the sound is an add on to my photography, which also has its own financial demands.  And I was encouraged by some of the good things I had read about the 701 pre-amps.

I have seen the set up you describe mentioned elsewhere, and I did at one time keep an eye open for an SD MixPre on eBay, but they are few and far between on eBay in the UK, and seemed much more money than the ones available in the US.

But you have certainly set me off re-thinking what I thought I was going to do.

Actually, there is probably no reason why I can't, longer term, look at the DR70 or 701 Plus the MixPre, so I had the convenience for general video/audio, but  with the  MiXPre for birds/ ambient stuff. That is probably more versatile than a S/H SD recorder. But as you can see I am back thinking it out again.

Thanks,

Graham

[myotis]

I was referring specifically to the noise and distortion specs (although the maximum signal levels are also of interest to many here); they are considerably better on the 701.  Really, the 701 is more-or-less in the middle, assuming Tascam's numbers are accurate, between the 70 and the SD 702.  For quiet stuff, that will be audible...

 I confess, that I was working on the assumption, that as a beginner, this  might be good enough for me, at least for a few years, as I build up other kit (good microphones) and develop my expertise. But maybe, this isn't a clever approach at all. 

Cheers,

Graham

[myotis]

The 70d caught on here like wildfire for a time because it offers 4xlr inputs with phantom power in a small case and initially could be had for under $200.  I am not sure if the market was saturated before the 701 came out, if cardgate scared other buyers or if the 701 is just still priced too high for TS members because I only remember one member buying a 701. 

That HDMI feature is useless unless your DSLR outputs time code via HDMI. 

Whether the 70d is good enough for your song bird recording, I think you would want input from someone who has used it for that purpose. 

What parabolic dish and microphone would you be using?  I doubt any of us have a dish, but maybe someone here could do a sample ambient outdoor recording?  Would that help?  Can you make a dish or do you have to buy one?

Please check but I believe BH photo has a 30 day return policy if the 70d doesn't work for you.

I have a dish, a copy of the  old Amberwood model (maybe be unheard of in the US, so  http://www.wildlife-sound.org/equipment/amberwood.html) that I am just using with a Rode Lavalier mic, and my Sony M10.  The person who made the dish is the chairman of the Wildlife Sound Recording Society also makes/sells mics, but he felt my mic would be fine. I have only used it a few times so far.

I suspect, that personally, my ear isn't good enough to pick up some of the differences people speak about here, I some times listen to tests, and can't really tell the difference, but it still needs to be good enough for other people to listen to.

I haven't come across anyone using the Tascams for bird recording, which is why I asked here, because I also be using it for other things, but I feel these are less demanding.

Thanks,

Graham

[2manyrocks]

What is the typical distance between you and the bird you intend to record?   Never tried it.  Might be fun to rig something up.

One thing about the 70d is battery life is maybe 2-3 hours vs 30-40 hours on the m10 meaning you would want to use an external 5v battery.  Something else to carry and mount. 

[myotis]

What is the typical distance between you and the bird you intend to record?   Never tried it.  Might be fun to rig something up.

One thing about the 70d is battery life is maybe 2-3 hours vs 30-40 hours on the m10 meaning you would want to use an external 5v battery.  Something else to carry and mount.

Distance varies, and I'm not getting as close as I need to to. One suggestion I have seen is to visualise it as a 135mm lens on a full frame camera (I have a 21" dish) in terms of isolating a bird.  But I have also used it to try and isolate a group of birds e.g. birds on a rocky island.  So I suspect I have been recording from 20m to 200m +.

But with mixed success. Firstly I hadn't realised how noisy the world is, of noise I do not want to have in the background, and secondly I was following best advice and kept the mic sensitivity on low,  but its obvious it needs to be on high for the most of what I am doing.  I am also not spending nearly  enough time developing any real skill, I have very little spare time at the moment.

It's still good fun, however, at how well it isolates distant sounds.

Cheers,
Graham

[Sonus Captor]

DR-701 or DR-70? Hard to say. Spec-wise the DR-701 is the better recorder. Curtis Judd liked it in his review:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl0DnLRkFDE
The question is: How much better? Here in Germany it's twice the price of a DR-70.
I owned a DR-40 and wouldn't recommend it for your needs. It's a solid performer for the price, but the DR-60 (no built-in mics)
and the DR-70 (built-in omnidirectional mics) have much quieter mic preamps than the DR-40 or the Zoom H4n.
Here's an audio test of the Tascam DR-70D vs. Zoom H4n vs. Tascam DR-40: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5tGpKlNxhI

[myotis]

DR-701 or DR-70? Hard to say. Spec-wise the DR-701 is the better recorder. Curtis Judd liked it in his review:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl0DnLRkFDE
The question is: How much better? Here in Germany it's twice the price of a DR-70.
I owned a DR-40 and wouldn't recommend it for your needs. It's a solid performer for the price, but the DR-60 (no built-in mics)
and the DR-70 (built-in omnidirectional mics) have much quieter mic preamps than the DR-40 or the Zoom H4n.
Here's an audio test of the Tascam DR-70D vs. Zoom H4n vs. Tascam DR-40: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5tGpKlNxhI

I have seen these thanks, I suspect that from a general tool for video, either the 70 or 701 would be fine, but Voltronics  has me thinking about how good these would be for low noise ambient conditions or bird recording when the gain is likely to be turned up. But the 701, does seem to have pretty good pre-amps for the price point.

Having said that,  lots of people do bird recording with fairly ordinary recorders e.g. Olympus LS11, so I suspect that either the 70 or 701 would be good enough for me.

But I think I may put a little bit more time into thinking about it.

Cheers,

Graham

[voltronic]

My thinking is this: if you really want an upgrade from what you're doing without much uncertainty, then you should get something that others have used successfully for the same or similar applications.  There is a huge amount of experience out there to draw in for all of the gear in this conversation... except the 701D.  I'm not saying that in and of itself would make it a bad choice, but it is still kind of an unknown quantity.

I see that you're trying to record from closer distances than I was imagining.  If that's the case and you won't be using very high gain, than the cheaper Tascsm units would be fine.  But it's quiet ambiances you're looking for requiring high gain, then you'll want the pro equipment.

[myotis]

My thinking is this: if you really want an upgrade from what you're doing without much uncertainty, then you should get something that others have used successfully for the same or similar applications.  There is a huge amount of experience out there to draw in for all of the gear in this conversation... except the 701D.  I'm not saying that in and of itself would make it a bad choice, but it is still kind of an unknown quantity.

I see that you're trying to record from closer distances than I was imagining.  If that's the case and you won't be using very high gain, than the cheaper Tascsm units would be fine.  But it's quiet ambiances you're looking for requiring high gain, then you'll want the pro equipment.

Thanks again, but I think your earlier comments have made me pause a little with my plans. I hadn't really considered an SD MixPre approach,  but it may well be the best long term option.  I think I will do what you suggested, save up a bit more, and see what crops up second hand. This will also give me some time to see how the 701 builds it reputation. It doesn't sound as if there is anything obviously wrong with it, but as you say, it doesn't seem to have a lot of users around at the moment.

Cheers,

Graham

[F.O.Bean]

The 70d caught on here like wildfire for a time because it offers 4xlr inputs with phantom power in a small case and initially could be had for under $200.  I am not sure if the market was saturated before the 701 came out, if cardgate scared other buyers or if the 701 is just still priced too high for TS members because I only remember one member buying a 701. 

That HDMI feature is useless unless your DSLR outputs time code via HDMI. 

Whether the 70d is good enough for your song bird recording, I think you would want input from someone who has used it for that purpose. 

What parabolic dish and microphone would you be using?  I doubt any of us have a dish, but maybe someone here could do a sample ambient outdoor recording?  Would that help?  Can you make a dish or do you have to buy one?

Please check but I believe BH photo has a 30 day return policy if the 70d doesn't work for you.

I live very close to some woods, and birds/cicadas are VERY active around here! In fact, my neighbor across the street killed a 4'+ Copperhead snake last week, because his back yards goes into the woods! If I have time to setup this morning, I'll do so with my MK41>PFA>70d and mk4>VMS02IB>70d setups and post a sample, so you can hear the 70d preamps compared to the VMS02IB preamps

As for the 70d/701d choice, if you need the HDMI and other features of the 701d, then its worth it! I would like the 701d's just to cascade them when necessary! BUT, I don't run a camera and don't plan on it anytime soon, so having [2] 70d's is perfect for ME Other than wanting to cascade the 70d's, they do what I need them to and sound great, so IMO, you can't go wrong with either! Now needing an external preamp or not is a whole nother debate/issue It depends on what mics you run and how much gain you need! You might need an external preamp, or you might not! Just have to wait and see and test it out for yourself!

I'll try to get samples posted before I leave for Phish/St. Paul, Minny here in the next couple of days! I'm probably leaving at like 2am on my bday, 6.21.2016! Anyone else doing the tour opener on 6.22.2016? It's my 20th year seeing Phish this year, so my buddy and I are making the trip west and meeting phriends from Cali It'll be my 93rd show, and my best phriends 184th show Anyway, I'll try to record the morning sun coming up when the birds are most active and loudest around here, with minimal car and other sounds going on, here in the next morning or two so yinz can hear the VMS vs. 70d preamps!

[myotis]

I live very close to some woods, and birds/cicadas are VERY active around here! In fact, my neighbor across the street killed a 4'+ Copperhead snake last week, because his back yards goes into the woods! If I have time to setup this morning, I'll do so with my MK41>PFA>70d and mk4>VMS02IB>70d setups and post a sample, so you can hear the 70d preamps compared to the VMS02IB preamps

I would certainly be interested in hearing this :-)

Cheers,

Graham

[aaronji]

Bear in mind that there are a lot of options in addition to the MixPre, either other pre-amps or all-in-ones, that may fit your needs.  I would try to find some people doing similar types of recording (I think there is a big nature recording group on Yahoo; at least there used to be) and see what they are using and why.  In general, taperssection might not be the best place to look for advice for this application.  Almost all of us record live music, often loud, and a lot of the conventional wisdom here doesn't even apply to soft acoustic music, let alone bird songs.  Take this thread as an example; the closest thing to relevant experience that anyone has claimed is, "I'm a taper and my neighbor killed a snake."  I am not saying that there is nothing of value for you here, only that it should be taken with a grain of salt...

[myotis]

  In general, taperssection might not be the best place to look for advice for this application.  Almost all of us record live music, often loud, and a lot of the conventional wisdom here doesn't even apply to soft acoustic music, let alone bird songs. 

I asked here because, apart from DSLR/Video forums where the focus seems to be on recording the spoken word, its the only place I have seen much discussion on  these recorders. And its the shape and usability with a DSLR that is attracting me to one.

I realised there was a focus on music here, but I was interested in comparisons between the 70 and the 701, rather than specific advice on my application, I mentioned it just to give a feel for where my interests lie. 

I am familiar with the yahoo group and the WSRS forum, and the recorders that are being used, and they are often similar to the models mentioned here, the Sony M10, Roland R05,etc, even zoom 4Ns, plus the Olympus LS10,11, which I'm not sure gets mentioned here.  The top end are using Nagra, Uher and Sound Devices, but they seem to be rarely mentioned.

If I was primarily looking for a recorder for wildlife and natural soundscapes, these would indeed be the places to go, but I think I have been given some valuable advice and plenty to to think about, from asking here.

So I appreciate everyone's efforts :-)

As an aside, on the Yahoo group, the Zoom f8 is mentioned (by an SD dealer) who is using the F8 for wildlife, and comments on how quiet the pre-amps are on the Zoom.

Cheers,

Graham

[F.O.Bean]

I live very close to some woods, and birds/cicadas are VERY active around here! In fact, my neighbor across the street killed a 4'+ Copperhead snake last week, because his back yards goes into the woods! If I have time to setup this morning, I'll do so with my MK41>PFA>70d and mk4>VMS02IB>70d setups and post a sample, so you can hear the 70d preamps compared to the VMS02IB preamps

I would certainly be interested in hearing this :-)

Cheers,

Graham

OK, just did some super quiet recording of the birds and nature around 6:30am this morning[6.19.2016]! These are the RAW untouched files, just FLAC'd@Level 8 with TLH! I ran the mk41s with all four gain modes[LOW/MID/HIGH/HIGH+PLUS] of the DR70D, just so yinz could all hear the internal preamps with some quiet mics

Both setups were in Rycote INV6-HG Shocks, with Movo WS80 screens on! The mk41s were ran in DINa, and the mk4s ran ORTF! Tascam 70D run with v1.13 FW!

Stereo Files:
1S12 are mk41>PFA>70d preamps on LOW Gain@MAX[5 o'clock], 24/96 BWAVs, MIC IN/Phantom ON
1S34 are mk4>VMS02IB>70d and on LOW Gain@MAX[5 o'clock], 24/96 BWAVs, LINE IN

2S12 are mk41>PFA>70d preamps on MID Gain@HALF[12 o'clock], 24/96 BWAVs, MIC IN/Phantom ON
2S34 are mk4>VMS02IB>70d and on LOW Gain@MAX[5 o'clock], 24/96 BWAVs, LINE IN

3S12 are mk41>PFA>70d preamps on HIGH Gain@HALF[12 o'clock], 24/96 BWAVs, MIC IN/Phantom ON
3S34 are mk4>VMS02IB>70d and on LOW Gain@MAX[5 o'clock], 24/96 BWAVs, LINE IN

5S12 are mk41>PFA>70d preamps on HIGH+[PLUS] Gain@[9-10 o'clock], 24/96 BWAVs, MIC IN/Phantom ON
5S34 are mk4>VMS02IB>70d and on LOW Gain@MAX[5 o'clock], 24/96 BWAVs, LINE IN

https://www.mediafire.com/folder/cg27iq66upn17/Tascam_DR-70D_%26_Schoeps_VMS02IB_Preamp_COMP!_Birds_%26_Nature_Samples_%5BSchoeps_mk4_%26_mk41%5D

EDIT: In a few hours, I'm visiting relatives down the road, and they live on a busy street! I'm going to run the newer v1.14 FW to try out and do some more samples of some louder noises like traffic passing by, which is only about 20'-30' from my Gram's front porch, so it should be a good contrast to the birds and nature stuff I recorded earlier and posted above! Can you tell I haven't taped a show in 4 months lol But I really want to try out the fw v1.14 before I run it live for Phish in 3 days! Might just keep running the v1.13 until I can get back from Phish/Minnesota and test out the v1.14 FW really good before using it "live"

[johnmuge]

I recorded peeper frogs using Nevaton MCE400's mounted on my glasses into the DR70d on the high gain setting if you would like to check it out. I started the recording at my house and walked up the street to the vernal pond so there are birds singing on the way.  It was for a inland wetlands project.  A We Transfer link :

       https://we.tl/MfnN1WiI1W

[F.O.Bean]

I recorded peeper frogs using Nevaton MCE400's mounted on my glasses into the DR70d on the high gain setting if you would like to check it out. I started the recording at my house and walked up the street to the vernal pond so there are birds singing on the way.  It was for a inland wetlands project.  A We Transfer link :

       https://we.tl/MfnN1WiI1W

Thanks! Did you use the EXT 1/2 input or the XLR inputs?

[johnmuge]

I used the XLR inputs with phantom power on.

[F.O.Bean]

Thanks! DL'ing now

[myotis]

OK, just did some super quiet recording of the birds and nature around 6:30am this morning[6.19.2016]! These are the RAW untouched files, just FLAC'd@Level 8 with TLH! I ran the mk41s with all four gain modes[LOW/MID/HIGH/HIGH+PLUS] of the DR70D, just so yinz could all hear the internal preamps with some quiet mics

Many thanks for this.

I need to spend more time listening to these, but it was very useful to hear these, I thought the ones without the pre-amp sounded OK, until I heard how much quieter the ones with the pre-amp were.   Though, I doubt I will ever be able to afford mics as good as schoeps.

Cheers,

Graham

I will be interested to hear what those with a better ear than I have to say.

[2manyrocks]

Dpa 4060s are low noise and relatively affordable.  Not sure I'd take schoeps out in the woods, plus the dpa's are so small to carry. 

[myotis]

Dpa 4060s are low noise and relatively affordable.  Not sure I'd take schoeps out in the woods, plus the dpa's are so small to carry.

The DPA 4060s certainly seem to crop up a lot, and something I would consider some day. Meanwhile, I have just bought a pair of balanced primo em-172 capsules, so a long way away from DPA !!

Cheers,
Graham

[2manyrocks]

I gave the 70d a try with dpa 4061s mounted to a trash can lid this afternoon at a colony of purple martins.  Using the original firmware, gain set to high and pots @ 3\4, I feel like there was more noise than acceptable.  May give this another try with some different mics.  The trashcash can lid seems to isolate or focus the sound.  Finding this more of a challenge than first expected. 

Am reminded that setting the gain out to the camera on the 70d is not as easy as on the 60d, IMO. 

[myotis]

The trashcash can lid seems to isolate or focus the sound.  Finding this more of a challenge than first expected. 

I tried various things before getting my dish, anything that had roughly the correct shape. Most seemed to work, but none came close to a properly designed dish, so I wonder if the gain needed with better focussed sound would be less than you are finding.

One of the advantages of the reflector is that its magnifying the sound, unlike a shotgun mic which is just isolating it. I wonder if this is why good but not great recorders are often used. e.g. Olympus Ls11

Cheers,

Graham

[aaronji]

If I was primarily looking for a recorder for wildlife and natural soundscapes, these would indeed be the places to go, but I think I have been given some valuable advice and plenty to to think about, from asking here.

So I appreciate everyone's efforts :-)

I think you misinterpret my post; as I stated, there is a lot to be learned here, but you should definitely consider how different the contexts are.

To put it in numbers, assume that a birdsong is hitting about 86 dBSPL at 65 centimeters.  I took these values from the first paper I found that published both numbers.  Note that this figure is the upper bound of the 95% confidence interval for the loudest bird measured; there is considerable variability between the birds (~ 12 dB), so this is actually the best-case scenario (for this species, at least, as there must also be quite some differences between species).  Anyway, taking that as a ballpark figure, at 20.8 meters you are at 56 dBSPL and at 166.4 meters that call is at 38 dBSPL (these distances are powers of 2 times the original 65 cm that come closest to your stated range). By contrast, 100 dBSPL, a not atypical taper SPL, is more than 128 times louder than the 20.8 m birdsong and more than 1024 times louder than the 166.4 m song.  At the 20.8 m distance, a microphone with a sensitivity of 10 mV/Pa (kind of a typical taper mic value) will generate an output voltage of ~ -76 dBu, while a more sensitive mic, say 20 mV/PA (similar to the Rode) will output ~ -70 dBu.  These voltages drop to -94 and -88 dBu at the greater distance. 

The long and short of all those numbers, assuming I did the math correctly (a major assumption), is that you’re needs are dramatically different from the typical taper.  As I see it, you probably need high-sensitivity, low-noise mics with either a quiet, high-gain pre and a decent recorder or a quiet, high-quality all-in-one recorder.

Missing from all this is the reflector.  I don’t know anything about these, but, intuitively, there are several factors to consider there.  First, it should provide a substantial boost in gain, but this will be strongly dependent on frequency.  So if you are primarily interested in the notes the bird is hitting, and not the dynamics, then it should work well.  The dynamics will be off, though.  Second, it should lead to strong increases in directivity, again closely correlated with frequency.  To capture the highest frequencies, I would guess this requires very careful aiming of the dish.  Last, there should be some focal point where the diaphragm of the mic should be placed.  I would guess the tolerance is pretty tight with that, too, which probably played a role in 2manyrocks’ results.

Anyway, I don’t know anything about nature recording, so take all of this with the appropriate dosage of salt!  Which was really my point...

[myotis]

If I was primarily looking for a recorder for wildlife and natural soundscapes, these would indeed be the places to go, but I think I have been given some valuable advice and plenty to to think about, from asking here.

So I appreciate everyone's efforts :-)

I think you misinterpret my post; as I stated, there is a lot to be learned here, but you should definitely consider how different the contexts are.

Missing from all this is the reflector.  I don’t know anything about these, but, intuitively, there are several factors to consider there.  First, it should provide a substantial boost in gain, but this will be strongly dependent on frequency.  So if you are primarily interested in the notes the bird is hitting, and not the dynamics, then it should work well.  The dynamics will be off, though.  Second, it should lead to strong increases in directivity, again closely correlated with frequency.  To capture the highest frequencies, I would guess this requires very careful aiming of the dish.  Last, there should be some focal point where the diaphragm of the mic should be placed.

Anyway, I don’t know anything about nature recording, so take all of this with the appropriate dosage of salt!  Which was really my point...

Sorry, I'm not sure whether, I did or did not, misinterpret your post or just phrased my reply badly :-)

I will take you word on the sums. !

The parabolic reflectors are designed for the mic to be placed level with the outer edge of the dish, if that makes sense. 

There is an issue with frequency as they only strongly pick up higher frequencies, and some low frequencies are missed entirely. So good for song birds, not so good for birds with low frequency calls, unless you have an enormous dish !   A bittern is 101dB at 1m with a frequency of 155 hertz, which is apparently the volume of a trumpet, with the frequency of a tuba ! (from Trevor Cox "Sonic Wonderland: A Scientific Odyssey of Sound")

There are also issues with recording reflected sound and direct sound, and whether omnidirectional or cardoid mics should be used.

Not everyone is a fan, and there is a bit of an ongoing debate between the use of dishes vs shotgun mics.

I have just so much to learn !

Cheers,

Graham

[aaronji]

The parabolic reflectors are designed for the mic to be placed level with the outer edge of the dish, if that makes sense. 

Yes, that makes perfect sense.  I would imagine that a garbage can lid or other make-shift dish wouldn't work very well unless it was actually parabolic (or very close) and the mics were positioned as you describe.

There is an issue with frequency as they only strongly pick up higher frequencies, and some low frequencies are missed entirely. So good for song birds, not so good for birds with low frequency calls, unless you have an enormous dish !   A bittern is 101dB at 1m with a frequency of 155 hertz, which is apparently the volume of a trumpet, with the frequency of a tuba ! (from Trevor Cox "Sonic Wonderland: A Scientific Odyssey of Sound")

That's astonishing; they aren't even very large, are they?  I would imagine that is pretty exceptional, though.  They would be difficult to record, too, due to the low frequency.  Neither the parabola nor directional mics would be ideal for that.

There are also issues with recording reflected sound and direct sound, and whether omnidirectional or cardoid mics should be used.

Not everyone is a fan, and there is a bit of an ongoing debate between the use of dishes vs shotgun mics.

This all makes sense to me, too.  I guess there are always trade-offs to be made.  Shotguns tend to have some pretty funky looking polar patterns, but the dish also introduces some oddities.  Does anyone use hyper- or supercards as an alternative?  Maybe a little closer?

[myotis]

This all makes sense to me, too.  I guess there are always trade-offs to be made.  Shotguns tend to have some pretty funky looking polar patterns, but the dish also introduces some oddities.  Does anyone use hyper- or supercards as an alternative?  Maybe a little closer?

Yes, its a very popular approach

http://www.wildlife-sound.org/blog/2016/05/leaving-the-grouse-unattended/

for a sony M10, low cost omni-directional mics and pre-amp left on site running

And for a very  interesting blog  http://www.thesoundspace.co.uk/

is well worth a browse

Here there are some examples of running 70m of cabling from mic to recorder. But many others do this sort of thing, with much longer cables !

He won the WSRS silver fox award last year, but struggling to get a link that works

 http://www.wildlife-sound.org/agm/index.html

The recording is called Spring In The Lammermuirs.

There is a page of the kit he uses, so it might be interesting to see how it compares with what the average Taper uses.

The eurasian bittern weighs between 0.8 and 2kg, so pretty big compared to your average song bird which is going to under 100g.

Link to British Library Bittern booming http://sounds.bl.uk/environment/british-wildlife-recordings/022m-wbotaxstel01-0100v0

Cheers,

Graham

[F.O.Bean]

Yeah, you would probably be best suited with some small, great sound omnis like the 4060s/4061s, to really capture the ambiance of the birds in the trees and all around you IMO! But I have NO experience nature recording, so take that with a grain of salt! I just think that birds/nature would be best re-created with omnis!

And as far as needing an external preamp, if my low-noise Schoeps have that much noise at high gain levels, then most mics are going to be even noisier than that, so I would bet the FARM that you would be best suited with an external preamp and a separate recorder or more expensive all-in-one! If size is of concern to you, then you might want to run 4060/4061>DPA MMP Preamp[if funds allow]>Sony M10 or any handheld deck out there with a line input! The 70d preamps are probably too noisy to be run alone! However, if size isn't a huge concern, id still get a Tascam 70d[with an approved SD card], and then upgrade to an external preamp AFTER you try it out! Plus the 70d is TINY too IMO! Its only 6.5" long x 4' wide and fits EASILY into most recording bags! And you'd have the extra 2 channels if ever needed! Not to mention a 70d is around the price of a Sony M10 anyway

[myotis]

Yeah, you would probably be best suited with some small, great sound omnis like the 4060s/4061s, to really capture the ambiance of the birds in the trees and all around you IMO! But I have NO experience nature recording, so take that with a grain of salt! I just think that birds/nature would be best re-created with omnis!

For soundscapes the omnis are popular but so are midside and double midside arrangements (but I'm not sure exactly what they are), but I still need a shotgun/parabolic for more distant things.

However, what has come from this discussion which I had't thought about was a separate PreAmp, and I agree that the way to go is to.  And as you suggest get the Tascam, so I have something general purpose to work with my camera gear, and xlr connectors and then look at an external preamp/mixer.  But  still not sure about whether the 701 is worth the extra.

Thanks for your help,

Cheers,
Graham

[aaronji]

And for a very  interesting blog  http://www.thesoundspace.co.uk/
<snip>
There is a page of the kit he uses, so it might be interesting to see how it compares with what the average Taper uses.

I have seen this site before; I think someone posted it here a couple of years ago (nature recorders pop up here on occasion, like yourself).  Pretty interesting.  It looks like he uses three primary setups, mid-side with Sennheisers, Senn. shotgun with a parabola, and 4060s remote with wireless transmitters.  Those Sennheiser mics have pretty high sensitivity (25 mV/Pa) and low noise and he is running them into high-quality Sound Devices mixers, which does seem to be the way to go, in general.  The 4060s (and I would get those and not the 4061s) are pretty low noise, although higher than an SDC, and probably work great at close range.  I think they do need to be quite close, though.

The eurasian bittern weighs between 0.8 and 2kg, so pretty big compared to your average song bird which is going to under 100g.

I was thinking about regular terns, which are a lot smaller.  The bittern is a pretty interesting bird; my five-year old was loving the calls (there are some videos out there too).  Learn something new every day and all...

[myotis]

I was thinking about regular terns, which are a lot smaller.  The bittern is a pretty interesting bird; my five-year old was loving the calls (there are some videos out there too).  Learn something new every day and all...

Ah, I see the confusion, as they aren't terns, but herons. But, fascinating birds as you say. There is a healthy population close to where I live and it can be spectacular hearing the males try to "outboom" each other. It's on my list of things I would like to record.

And yes, I suspect a SD mixer approach is indeed the long term aim.

Cheers,

Graham

[F.O.Bean]

Yeah, you would probably be best suited with some small, great sound omnis like the 4060s/4061s, to really capture the ambiance of the birds in the trees and all around you IMO! But I have NO experience nature recording, so take that with a grain of salt! I just think that birds/nature would be best re-created with omnis!

For soundscapes the omnis are popular but so are midside and double midside arrangements (but I'm not sure exactly what they are), but I still need a shotgun/parabolic for more distant things.

However, what has come from this discussion which I had't thought about was a separate PreAmp, and I agree that the way to go is to.  And as you suggest get the Tascam, so I have something general purpose to work with my camera gear, and xlr connectors and then look at an external preamp/mixer.  But  still not sure about whether the 701 is worth the extra.

Thanks for your help,

Cheers,
Graham

If you use a camera or ever plan on using one, and want everything sycned, then the 701 is probably worth it to you! If I had a camera Id DEF have a 701D! However, I got a 70d early 2015 for dirt cheap new, and then got a used 2nd 70d right before the 701 came out! Id RATHER have [2] 701D's, just for cascading and monitoring/metering alone, but it just doesn't make sense for me at the moment, to dump both of my 70D's and get [2] 701D's instead, especially since I have next to nothing invested in both of my 70D's Hell, I got my 70d's so cheap that I'll probably just keep them until they break or quit working! But who knows how long that'll be? LOL!

If I were starting fresh, and only needed a SINGLE recorder, Id DEF throw down the extra $$ for a 701d vs. a 70d, especially if I were using a camera like you are As always, YMMV!

[2manyrocks]

My hazy recollection is the Panasonic gh4 and maybe one other dslr output time code over HDMI.  I would hesitate to pay $600 for the 701 without some very specific proof that it is a definite step up from the $200 70d and unless I  owned a camera that outputs time code over HDMI.   

 At $600, you're halfway to a used 702 with known established performance.

If the audio output to the camera is menu driven on the 701 like the 70d instead of a manual gain pot like on the 60d, not sure I'd like that. 

I am interested to hear more discussion of the parabolic dish setup.    Why aren't they used for festival recording?  I could immediately tell the dish tends to block noise from the rear. Looks like that would be useful to reduce crowd noise, and if we could use cardoid mics with a dish, then that would be less costly than mk41capsules. 

[myotis]

If you use a camera or ever plan on using one, and want everything sycned, then the 701 is probably worth it to you!

I'm certainly a little reluctant to buy the 70 when the 701 is available, given my primary purpose for it is to work with a DSLR, and it does offer some added camera benefits, better noise, better mixing and a more robust construction. As a long term investment which I could add a PreAmp to later, it seems a better choice, but it is still more than twice the price.

I am still thinking about it, but where as I was going to rush into buying something before going on holiday, I now think I will wait a bit.

Cheers,

Graham

[myotis]

I am interested to hear more discussion of the parabolic dish setup.    Why aren't they used for festival recording?  I could immediately tell the dish tends to block noise from the rear. Looks like that would be useful to reduce crowd noise, and if we could use cardoid mics with a dish, then that would be less costly than mk41capsules.

    Canon 5D Mark III
    Panasonic GH4
    Sony A7s
    Sony A7 II

are HDMI timecode supported cameras with the 701.  Nikon d810, no timecodes, but will start and stop the recorder from the camera.

But I imagine this will change as new cameras are introduced and Tascam firmware is updated

Omnis or cardoids  are both used in parabolic reflectors but I think the problem for festivals  is that they only pick up a limited sound spectrum (high frequencies only) which is fine for songbirds, but less so for general use. 

They also, at least mine does (moulded fibreglass) , pick up far more from the rear than you might expect.

Cheers,

Graham

[voltronic]

Just posted this - you may be interested.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=178128.0

[myotis]

Just posted this - you may be interested.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=178128.0

Thanks, not sure if I am ready to make the leap yet, but it seems its delivery to US only.

But I am grateful for you pointing it out.

Cheers,

Graham

[2manyrocks]

Gh4 is about $1,500 in the USA plus lenses.   I thought bird photographers wanted the Canon 7d or the new Nikon D500 for quick focusing and rapid frames per second? 

By the time you buy any of the camera bodies you mentioned plus long reach/fast aperture lenses, this starts to look expensive. 

[myotis]

Gh4 is about $1,500 in the USA plus lenses.   I thought bird photographers wanted the Canon 7d or the new Nikon D500 for quick focusing and rapid frames per second? 

By the time you buy any of the camera bodies you mentioned plus long reach/fast aperture lenses, this starts to look expensive.

Well, I just thought you had expressed an interest in what cameras the 701 supported, and that list currently includes most of the "stills" cameras that would be considered serious video cameras.

The choice of camera for stills photographs of birds, seems to be another discussion, but I do know that several photographers who use Canon/Nikon for stills also have Sony/Panasonic cameras for video.  Me included, though none that would work with the Tascam.

Cheers,

Graham

[2manyrocks]

Actually, it was good to find out what other cameras support timecode over HDMI, but it's a bit of a letdown if the new Nikon D500 doesn't support it.     

[myotis]

Actually, it was good to find out what other cameras support timecode over HDMI, but it's a bit of a letdown if the new Nikon D500 doesn't support it.   

I am Nikon user (for over 40 years) and will be adding a Nikon D500 to my kit, but Nikon is still lagging behind in the video arena. Great Image quality, even in video, but just not as useable as the alternatives.  The D810 replacement has to be a big step up for Nikon in terms of video. 

Cheers,

Graham

[myotis]

Just to finish this thread off, and it may seem rather odd given the starting point, but I have bought a used (only once) Fostex Fr2-le.

I couldn't make up my mind about which of the four recorders I was considering was the best buy for me, and I found myself just going round in circles.

However, with more thought, I realised the need to use the recorder with the camera was secondary to getting something I could use from a bag with my parabolic reflector. The Fostex seems to have had a lot of good things said about it and at £140, it seemed a reasonable price to get me a good low noise recorder that would open up using XLR mics.

I am obviously still aware of arguments of why I could/should have gone a different route, but I feel more relaxed now that the deed has been done and I can move on to investing in microphones and learning how to use them.  I think that once I have some good microphones, and know better what I want/need I will feel happier in spending money on a more expensive recorder.

But, I'm very glad I asked my question as it was the comments here that made me rethink what it was I really needed, and made me consider things I hadn't thought about.

Cheers,

Graham

[adrjork]

if you're doing ambient / bird song, you're going to want something with preamps that have very low noise at very high gain, and that means a higher class of equipment.  That should be your #1 priority here.  All of those Tascams will have unacceptable noise for you at the highest gain levels.  If you weren't doing ambient recording, I'd say the 60D or 70D would be the way to go, but I don't think you'll be satisfied with the preamps and I doubt the 701D preamps are going to be that much quieter than the 70D, even though its specs are a little bit better.

The cheapest way for you to go is to look for a used Sound Devices MixPre  / Shure FP-24 preamp on eBay for $300-$400, which you connect to your M10 with a mini stereo cable.  I have that setup, and it works great.  More gain than you will ever need, and very, very low noise even when you crank the level.  You'll have to use the Tape Out on the MixPre/FP24 with the M10 which will deliver 56dB max gain, but that gain level will be actually quiet enough to use for your purposes, as opposed to the Tascams which will deliver that much gain but have all kinds of noise in there along with it.

What about the 70D modded by Busman. It should be comparable to SoundDevices, isn't it?

[voltronic]

if you're doing ambient / bird song, you're going to want something with preamps that have very low noise at very high gain, and that means a higher class of equipment.  That should be your #1 priority here.  All of those Tascams will have unacceptable noise for you at the highest gain levels.  If you weren't doing ambient recording, I'd say the 60D or 70D would be the way to go, but I don't think you'll be satisfied with the preamps and I doubt the 701D preamps are going to be that much quieter than the 70D, even though its specs are a little bit better.

The cheapest way for you to go is to look for a used Sound Devices MixPre  / Shure FP-24 preamp on eBay for $300-$400, which you connect to your M10 with a mini stereo cable.  I have that setup, and it works great.  More gain than you will ever need, and very, very low noise even when you crank the level.  You'll have to use the Tape Out on the MixPre/FP24 with the M10 which will deliver 56dB max gain, but that gain level will be actually quiet enough to use for your purposes, as opposed to the Tascams which will deliver that much gain but have all kinds of noise in there along with it.

What about the 70D modded by Busman. It should be comparable to SoundDevices, isn't it?

It will not be comparable at high gain levels, which is what the OP needs.  Sound Devices will have much lower noise, even with a modified Tascam deck (which I have).  Again, the modification improves the overall sound quality but does not reduce the high-gain noise.

At low gain levels such as those used for concert recording, the differences are much smaller.

[adrjork]

It will not be comparable at high gain levels, which is what the OP needs.  Sound Devices will have much lower noise, even with a modified Tascam deck (which I have).  Again, the modification improves the overall sound quality but does not reduce the high-gain noise.
At low gain levels such as those used for concert recording, the differences are much smaller.

Thanks you for this clarifying answer! So let's say I'll go for a SoundDevices product: I've seen two similar items: the MixPre-3 and the 702. The first has a relative affordable price, while the second costs almost 3x more. The specs about noise seem similar between the two products, so why there is this price difference?
Thanks

[adrjork]

Here's the thing though - if you're doing ambient / bird song, you're going to want something with preamps that have very low noise at very high gain, and that means a higher class of equipment. [...] If you need this to be a one-box solution, I'd keep saving my money and get a used SD 701 or 744

I apologize for being again a bit off-topic, but perhaps voltronic can confirm my previous post/question: what gives less noise (and its better for field rec): D100 built-in mics or MixPre3+AT4053b?
Thanks

[voltronic]

Here's the thing though - if you're doing ambient / bird song, you're going to want something with preamps that have very low noise at very high gain, and that means a higher class of equipment. [...] If you need this to be a one-box solution, I'd keep saving my money and get a used SD 701 or 744

I apologize for being again a bit off-topic, but perhaps voltronic can confirm my previous post/question: what gives less noise (and its better for field rec): D100 built-in mics or MixPre3+AT4053b?
Thanks

I have no firsthand experience with the built-in mics on the D100.  What I can tell you is that buying a MixPre3 would likely be a better overall investment if you do want to use separate mics down the road, different configurations, etc.  You would need a separate preamp to feed a D100, which is fine as long as you know what you're getting into.

[voltronic]

It will not be comparable at high gain levels, which is what the OP needs.  Sound Devices will have much lower noise, even with a modified Tascam deck (which I have).  Again, the modification improves the overall sound quality but does not reduce the high-gain noise.
At low gain levels such as those used for concert recording, the differences are much smaller.

Thanks you for this clarifying answer! So let's say I'll go for a SoundDevices product: I've seen two similar items: the MixPre-3 and the 702. The first has a relative affordable price, while the second costs almost 3x more. The specs about noise seem similar between the two products, so why there is this price difference?
Thanks

The 7-series, even though quite old at this point, is from Sound Devices flagship line of recorders.  The MixPre3 and MixPre6 are the brand new ones aimed more toward the podcasting crowd.  It is possible that their absolute performance from an audio recording standpoint may be equal or superior to the 7-series.  It's still too early to determine that, I suppose.  Watch this thread for feedback from those who have purchased these units.  They look very promising.

[adrjork]

Thanks really a lot!

[noahbickart]

my *modified* dr70d is on sale in the yard sale: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=182486.0