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Author Topic: Korg MR-1  (Read 137177 times)

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Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Korg MR-1
« Reply #360 on: October 31, 2007, 01:48:30 PM »
And less noise in the 1bit case.

How so when it all goes to PCM in the end?

Offline Digital Quality

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Re: Korg MR-1
« Reply #361 on: October 31, 2007, 02:05:37 PM »
If you have a 1bit decoder.
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Offline Colin Liston

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Re: Korg MR-1
« Reply #362 on: October 31, 2007, 02:12:21 PM »

In this post...
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,85760.msg1169982.html#msg1169982

Thank you for this.  Now, I got it installed but it will only play at 16/44.1 and not at 24/96.
Occasionally....music mics record

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Korg MR-1
« Reply #363 on: October 31, 2007, 02:15:04 PM »
It seems to me there's value in having software-based DSD > PCM conversion, as it allows for different implementations of the process, some of which may sound different (better?) than others.  That said, I can't justify it to myself at the moment given:

  • inability to play DSD on my home stereo without using the recorder itself
  • in the meantime, significantly more time/effort converting to PCM
  • HUGE storage required to save the DSD master recordings until (if?) I can play back DSD easily / natively on my home stereo

Glad to see others out there exploring these options, though.  Cool stuff.  :)
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Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: Korg MR-1
« Reply #364 on: October 31, 2007, 05:54:19 PM »
I know it's stepping into a highly contentious area, but I found the following of interest.  I still record at 24/96 and strive to find some improvement using DSD (both Korg machines), but I concluded I was probably fooling myself.  I am ordering the September AES journal, but if this is a fair summary then the jig is up.

"Incontrovertible double-blind listening tests prove that the original 16-bit/44.1-kHz CD standard yields exactly the same two-channel sound quality as the SACD and DVD-A technologies.


In the September 2007 issue of the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society (Volume 55, Number 9), two veteran audio journalists who aren’t professional engineers, E. Brad Meyer and David R. Moran, present a breakthrough paper that contradicts all previous inputs by the engineering community. They prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, with literally hundreds of double-blind listening tests at matched levels, conducted over a period of more than a year, that the two-channel analog output of a high-end SACD/DVD-A player undergoes no audible change when passed through a 16-bit/44.1-kHz A/D/A processor. That means there’s no audible difference between the original CD standard (“Red Book”) and 24-bit/192-kHz PCM or 1-bit/2.8442-MHz DSD.

Please note that this is not just a disagreement with the cloud-cuckoo-land audiophiles but also with the highest engineering authorities, such as the formidable J. Robert Stuart of England’s Meridian Audio and others with similar credentials. That the Meyer-Moran tests leave no room for continued disagreements is an occasion for the most delicious Schadenfreude on the part of electronic soundalike advocates like yours truly. I stated my suspicions that SACD was no improvement over CD seven years ago, in my review of the first Sony SACD player, the SCD-1, in Issue No. 26 of The Audio Critic (downloadable from this website). I could hear no difference between the CD and SACD layers of the same disc when stopping the player and switching over, instant toggling between the two layers being impossible.

Now, Meyer and Moran are careful to point out that the new hi-rez formats generally sound better than standard CDs, but not because the processing technology is superior. The hi-rez discs are aimed at a more sophisticated market, and therefore the recording sessions and production techniques tend to be more sophisticated, more puristic, in terms of microphoning, compression, editing, etc. The use of a standard 16-bit/44.1-kHz processor as a “bottleneck” in the Meyer-Moran tests eliminated this concern. Comparing the CD and SACD layers of the same disc also eliminates it.

It should also be pointed out that more bits and a higher sampling rate in recording are still a good thing because they permit a little bit of unavoidable sloppiness, so that you can still comfortably end up with 16-bit dynamics and 20 kHz bandwidth. Meyer and Moran do not say that 14 or 15 bits in a truncated CD are just as good as 20. What they say is that spot-on 16-bit/44.1-kHz processing is as good as it gets, audibly.

Finally, let’s not confuse the Meyer-Moran tests with stereo vs. surround sound comparisons. All of the above has to do with the two channels, left and right, of stereo recordings, nothing else. The musical value of additional surround channels is something I have been wondering about lately, but that’s an altogether different subject."


See http://www.theaudiocritic.com/blog/

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Korg MR-1
« Reply #365 on: October 31, 2007, 06:30:58 PM »
Great find!  Very interesting approach.

I wonder if they compared any 'non-mastered' live material?  If they just used commercial SACD/DVDA, then that would seem to be a limitation of their tests for our situation.

Or maybe their SACD/DSD player secretly converts to PCM before the analog stage :P


Offline boyacrobat

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Re: Korg MR-1
« Reply #366 on: October 31, 2007, 10:51:33 PM »
spend dollars (act of faith ) on dsd and gain access to advanced listening from self due to desire for better audio.
mind does deliver, its real because i believe my ears, they are mine , sound is stunning.

stunningness is in the ears of the beholder.

dsd a meta physical gateway into the mind.

g
« Last Edit: October 31, 2007, 10:53:35 PM by boyacrobat »

Offline digifish_music

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Re: Korg MR-1
« Reply #367 on: November 01, 2007, 04:40:12 AM »
I know it's stepping into a highly contentious area, but I found the following of interest.  I still record at 24/96 and strive to find some improvement using DSD (both Korg machines), but I concluded I was probably fooling myself.  I am ordering the September AES journal, but if this is a fair summary then the jig is up.

...See http://www.theaudiocritic.com/blog/


This is entirely consistent with the following AES presentation from...

http://world.std.com/~griesngr/

particularly...

http://world.std.com/~griesngr/intermod.ppt

Conclusions -

1. Adding ultrasonics to a recording technique does NOT improve time resolution of typical signals – either for imaging or precision of tempo. The presumption that it does is based on a misunderstanding of both information theory and human physiology.

2. Karou and Shogo have shown that ultrasonic harmonics of a 2kHz signal are NOT audible in the absence of external (non-human) intermodulation distortion. (BTW: means they can't be heard in the real world and that filtering them from the recording is a good thing as they can only do harm!).

3. Their experiments put a limit on the possibility that a physiological non-linearity can make ultrasonic harmonics perceptible. They find that such a non-linearity does not exist at ultrasonic sound pressure levels below 80dB.

4. All commercial recordings tested by the author as of 6/1/03 contained either no ultrasonic information, or ultrasonic harmonics at levels more than 40dB below the fundamentals.

5. Our experiments suggest that the most important source of audible intermodulation for ultrasonics is the electronics, not in the transducers.
Some consumer grade equipment makes a tacit admission of the inaudibility of frequencies above 22kHz by simply not reproducing them. Yet the advertising for these products claims the benefits of “higher resolution.”

6. Even assuming ultrasonics are audible, loudspeaker directivity creates an unusually tiny sweet spot, both horizontally and vertically.


digifish
« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 04:45:45 AM by digifish_music »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Korg MR-1
« Reply #368 on: November 01, 2007, 09:35:06 AM »
This is entirely consistent with the following AES presentation from...

http://world.std.com/~griesngr/

particularly...

http://world.std.com/~griesngr/intermod.ppt

...digifish
^^^^
David Griesinger's page is a great resource.  I was just browsing it yesterday and thinking about posting a general link at TS somewhere (possibly the Audio Reference thread if it's not already there.  Some content is rather technical, some is quite straightforward and appicable to our applications.

OT but this is great applied M/S info: Griesinger's Coincident Microphone Primer

Thanks for the discussion guys.
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Offline Digital Quality

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Re: Korg MR-1
« Reply #369 on: November 01, 2007, 11:06:41 AM »
There's all kinds of 1 bit decoders out there. The only thing that's vaporware is the authoring software to get us on the disc. Maybe it will come along, maybe not.
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Offline MattH

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Re: Korg MR-1
« Reply #370 on: November 01, 2007, 09:31:12 PM »
There's all kinds of 1 bit decoders out there. The only thing that's vaporware is the authoring software to get us on the disc. Maybe it will come along, maybe not.

http://www.sonicstudio.com/products/dsd/sacdc.html

I'm thinking about buying this and offering a low priced DSD>SACD conversion service. I don't think it would take too long to pay for the approx. $5,000 investment.
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Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Korg MR-1
« Reply #371 on: November 01, 2007, 09:37:47 PM »
I'm thinking about buying this and offering a low priced DSD>SACD conversion service.

If a bunch of killer shows were *only* seeded in DSD, that application might become a whole lot more "popular" soon after.

Offline MattH

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Re: Korg MR-1
« Reply #372 on: November 01, 2007, 09:46:56 PM »
I'm thinking about buying this and offering a low priced DSD>SACD conversion service.

If a bunch of killer shows were *only* seeded in DSD, that application might become a whole lot more "popular" soon after.


with do not convert to pcm warnings?

edit: I was thinking more for those of us who master in and greatly prefer dsd but are looking for ease of playback. I would probably only do it with my favorite recordings if I didn't own the program.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 09:50:51 PM by MattH »
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Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Korg MR-1
« Reply #373 on: November 02, 2007, 07:20:33 AM »
There's all kinds of 1 bit decoders out there. The only thing that's vaporware is the authoring software to get us on the disc. Maybe it will come along, maybe not.

http://www.sonicstudio.com/products/dsd/sacdc.html

I'm thinking about buying this and offering a low priced DSD>SACD conversion service. I don't think it would take too long to pay for the approx. $5,000 investment.

does that include the cost of the tape drive ?

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Korg MR-1
« Reply #374 on: November 02, 2007, 08:01:53 AM »
Some rivetting reading in the links recently posted here - very many thanks!!

 

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