Author Topic: first rig (Read 7605 times)

AmazingPudding · « **on:** November 27, 2010, 07:19:39 AM »

After 20+ years of trading ROIO's and other peoples recordings, I have decided it is time to become a taper. I have a budget of about $1500-$2000 for the rig. I have read here that a good suggestion for newbies is the Sony PCM-M10. I have also looked at Edirol R09-HR as well as the Tascam DR-2d and the DR100. I like all of these options but I need to know is it wise to buy a recorder that has xlr output(DR100) or just get a preamp for phantom power?
As for the microphones, I listened to many of everyone else's recordings that I have on my HD. I really like the sound of AKG, neumann and Schoeps. i have found some good prices on AKG C214 and Neumann Sk148. iwould just like feedback on these or some other suggestions. Is there an advantage to a large diaphragm over a small?
Any suggestions or comments would be helpful.

Thanks, Blake

jlykos · « **Reply #1 on:** November 27, 2010, 07:38:00 AM »

Search the forums; this has been covered to death. With that kind of budget, you can afford a high quality rig and everybody will have their opinions about what you should get.

A question to ask yourself is what microphones sound best to your ears, not just what you can get a good deal on. Try to focus on particular models. Not too many tapers use AKG C214 or Neumann SK148 mics for live recording. Build your rig from there. Schoeps is probably outside of your price range, but you can afford used AKGs or Neumanns.

Also, I would buy used as much as you can. You will have a greater resale value as a percentage of what you bought the item for, which is helpful if you want to swap gear in or out of your signal chain.

Finally, budget around $200 for a stand, cables, and various accessories.

But since you asked, I would buy the following items with that budget:

Microtech Gefell M300 (~$800 - $1000 used) >
Naiant Littlebox (~$300 new) >
Sony PCM-M10 (~$250 used)
Cables, stand, accessories: $200

That's everything for $1750 on the high end.

mattmiller · « **Reply #2 on:** November 27, 2010, 09:05:08 AM »

With the popularity of the M10, there aren't too many used ones floating around for sale yet. However, you can get it for $200 NEW at Amazon and other places.

fmaderjr · « **Reply #3 on:** November 27, 2010, 09:47:11 AM »

Quote from: AmazingPudding on November 27, 2010, 07:19:39 AM

I have read here that a good suggestion for newbies is the Sony PCM-M10. I have also looked at Edirol R09-HR as well as the Tascam DR-2d and the DR100. I like all of these options but I need to know is it wise to buy a recorder that has xlr output(DR100) or just get a preamp for phantom power?

IMO jlyko's suggestion to get an M10 as the recorder and a littlebox as a preamp would be MUCH better than just getting a DR100 and no preamp. The littlebox is a great pre plus if you ever decide to do any stealth recording you can get some small mics and use the M10 without the littlebox. A littlebox + M10 is a very versatile rig and sounds great.

The littlebox comes with many options-Jon at Naiant could help you decide how you want it configured.

AmazingPudding · « **Reply #4 on:** November 27, 2010, 11:59:09 AM »

That is great advice. You have helped me make the first decision. Now on to the mics.....................

gkatz · « **Reply #5 on:** November 27, 2010, 01:53:19 PM »

If I were getting new microphones, I would look for something with multi-cap capability. Maybe a set of Peluso cemc-6's?

http://www.pelusomicrophonelab.com/CEMC6.html

rastasean · « **Reply #6 on:** November 27, 2010, 02:12:25 PM »

Here's a used set of mics:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=140946.0

su6oxone · « **Reply #7 on:** November 27, 2010, 02:24:03 PM »

Quote from: AmazingPudding on November 27, 2010, 07:19:39 AM

After 20+ years of trading ROIO's and other peoples recordings, I have decided it is time to become a taper.

Awesome, welcome to the club!

With a $1500-2000 budget, I would recommend getting a nice all-in-one recorder like the Marantz PMD661, which you can get stock (un-modded by the Oade brothers) for around $570 or better, or the Edirol R-44 which runs around $700-1000 depending if it's Oade modded or not.

For mics, I would suggest something like the AKG c460b series or MBHO 603a, both with interchangeable caps but the MBHO with ability to use 'actives' (well, not technically active cables but remote cables rather). The advantage of the MBHOs is that you can run the caps separately from the bodies, which makes for a more compact and convenient setup. If you don't mind just trying one type of capsule, the Neumann KM184 are nice mics as well. Any of these mics should run from $800 to $1500 or so, depending on how many caps you get.

Lastly, you'll need a good $200-400 for cables, gear bag, stand, clamps, etc.

Good luck!

drewski1986 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 27, 2010, 03:31:23 PM »

Mics, cables, and a mounting bar... http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=140479.0

acidjack · « **Reply #9 on:** November 27, 2010, 05:04:32 PM »

Depends on if you are open taping exclusively or not, but I would prefer, as a new user, to go with something simpler like an all-in-one as su6xone suggests. I'd avoid the Tascam due to bad battery life, but the PMD661 should do the trick and can have the pre's upgraded. The 661 is also small enough that you can do more discrete taping as well.

Don't get me wrong, the littlebox>M10 is good, and that's my main "stereo" rig I use, but I just find it easier to do something that's all-in-one, which is why I often run my Oade R-44 even when just doing stereo.

Assuming you spend approx $500 on recorder/pre, that leaves you $1500 for everything else. The Neumann SKM184 set is certainly very nice, albeit a little more than that. I don't see much of anyone with anything wrong to say about the AKG 460/480 or the Microtech Gefell M300. Getting either of those used will leave you some cash left over for stand, cables, mounts, and assorted other stuff you need. I don't know much about the Pelusos but they are US made, offer lots of different caps, and are loved by the folks who have them (of course, almost every mic is loved by the people that have it; if they didn't, they'd sell it).

I would suggest probably going with SDC vs. LD mics as a new user mostly for size and convenience, though that is not a knock on the ability to make excellent recordings with LD mics.

OOK · « **Reply #10 on:** November 27, 2010, 05:04:48 PM »

Good Starter rig would be..

1. Busman Small condensers
2. Little box extended depth for the 4AA bat. sled.
3. Sony PCM10 recorder...
That should put you about 1000$

money left for...
Rechargeable batteries, low discharge type....16aa + mah charge 100$
15' mic cables..50$
2 rca's to stereo mini cable 15$
AKG T-bar.....25$
Monfrotto 1004bac mic Stand...... 100$
Bag to put all the gear in, choices are wide open here.... 75$

That puts you about 1365$ give of take.....then the money you save buy tickets.....

peace OOk

AmazingPudding · « **Reply #11 on:** November 27, 2010, 08:04:28 PM »

Wow. This is all great advice. I will look in the marketplace and take it from there. OtheroneK..I really like your suggestion. Thank You

OOK · « **Reply #12 on:** November 28, 2010, 02:19:28 AM »

Quote from: AmazingPudding on November 27, 2010, 08:04:28 PM

Wow. This is all great advice. I will look in the marketplace and take it from there. OtheroneK..I really like your suggestion. Thank You

No problem......

cashandkerouac · « **Reply #13 on:** January 20, 2011, 02:51:42 PM »

hello: i am a "newbie" to this forum, but i have been taping with average equipment for ther past couple of years and am in a similar situation to AmazingPudding. i'm in the market for a new (and much better quality rig). rather than start a new thread i'm hoping to piggy-back on this one since my need for info and general budget is the same.

there has been some excellent info and advice so far... but to be honest the menu of options is a bit overwhelming. i thought my big dilemma would be selection of mics, but i'm leaning heavily toward the Church Audio CA-14 cardioid mics for a good balance of quality and stealth.

it's the selection of the digital recorder where i am most uncertain. the Eridol R-09HR is a front-runner, but the Sony PCM-M10 and the Marantz PMD661 also seem to be highly recommended. any additional feedback on the pros and cons of these three digital recording devices would be appreciated.

su6oxone · « **Reply #14 on:** January 20, 2011, 03:03:24 PM »

What r u using now and whats ur budget? CA14 > CA9100 > M10 is a solid rig.

cashandkerouac · « **Reply #15 on:** January 20, 2011, 03:16:34 PM »

my budget is similar to the original poster (AmazingPudding) - about $1,500, but it's flexible. i'm willing to spend what i need to get a good quality rig that will last and can adapt over time. i will likely get additional mics for non-stealth situations, but most of the time i will be recording in venues where taping is not explicitly allowed. i originally got a Zoom H-4 for home use. i play guitar and it's good for capturing musical ideas at home. i've been using the Zoom with its internal mics at shows mainly for my own concert archives. it's been fun and it has served its original purpose, but i'm at the point where i'd like to make higher quality concert recordings. the Zoom was a good start, but i'm ready to make the leap to a much better set-up.

acidjack · « **Reply #16 on:** January 20, 2011, 03:23:37 PM »

The big difference in the 661 and the other two decks is that it provides phantom power (48V power to the mics) while the other two do not; it is also much bigger. For small mics like the CA-14 than run off of a 9v power supply, phantom power is unnecessary. For most larger and high-quality mics, phantom is necessary (there are devices like the tinybox that do not provide a full 48V but can power the detached capsules of some mic systems, but let's just keep this simple right now).

it sounds like what you want are small mics. If you're stealth taping your main options are the Church Audio line and related competitors like the AT853, the Countryman omni mics, the Nevaton omni mics (which require 48V phantom), the Audix mics with Church cables (all of the foregoing at or just under $500) the DPA 406x series omnis ($1000 new or ~$650 used), or various types of mics that require 48V phantom and cost over $3500 new/$2400 used (DPA, Schoeps, Neumann). You'll note that of these options, a lot of the small stealthy mics listed are omnis, which are somewhat less flexible in terms of where they can achieve optimum performance.

*if you like the sound of them* I'd at least consider the Audix. They're tiny when run with a Church cable (same size as the CA-11) and can be run with a little battery box; if you buy the bodies, you can use those for open taping using 48v phantom. A new set of Audix with the bodies is under $1000 and the Church cables are $65, plus another $40-60 for a 9v battery box.

There are forthcoming options like the tinybox with various capsules such as the beyerdynamic ck930. That may also be a good fit but people have not seemed to have tons of succcess sourcing the caps alone. There is also a much frothed about AKG option with the tinybox which would allow you to run AKG ck6x caps directly into the tinybox, I believe. That would probably be where I'd go in your price range, if and when the product actually comes out.

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #17 on:** January 20, 2011, 05:58:28 PM »

Everyone always forgets about the mighty MBHO's

GREAT mics for the $$ and have so many capsule options only second to schoeps! Highly underrated and are a very consistent mic. You can get the 603a bodies that allow remote placement of the capsules

su6oxone · « **Reply #18 on:** January 20, 2011, 06:27:32 PM »

If you can stretch your budget a bit more (like about a $1K...

), I would go with the Schoeps CMR setup. Low profile but high end quality. You'll need a tinybox with that too though I believe. Otherwise, I agree with Bean -- the MBHO is a great idea. They sound great, have 'active-style' capabilities (caps separate from the mic bodies), and fit in your budget. MBHOs + PMD661 would be a sweet rig...

jbell · « **Reply #19 on:** January 20, 2011, 06:41:18 PM »

You can use Naiant PFAs with the CMR cables and run them into any pre.

Quote from: su6oxone on January 20, 2011, 06:27:32 PM

If you can stretch your budget a bit more (like about a $1K... ), I would go with the Schoeps CMR setup. Low profile but high end quality. You'll need a tinybox with that too though I believe. Otherwise, I agree with Bean -- the MBHO is a great idea. They sound great, have 'active-style' capabilities (caps separate from the mic bodies), and fit in your budget. MBHOs + PMD661 would be a sweet rig...

willndmb · « **Reply #20 on:** January 20, 2011, 09:24:20 PM »

if anyone is interested in Busman Mics I have a set that will be for sale
i also recommend the littlebox and m10
the fr2le for sale currently in the yard is nice too

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #21 on:** January 20, 2011, 09:48:48 PM »

Quote from: jmbell on January 20, 2011, 06:41:18 PM

You can use Naiant PFAs with the CMR cables and run them into any pre.

Quote from: su6oxone on January 20, 2011, 06:27:32 PM
If you can stretch your budget a bit more (like about a $1K... ), I would go with the Schoeps CMR setup. Low profile but high end quality. You'll need a tinybox with that too though I believe. Otherwise, I agree with Bean -- the MBHO is a great idea. They sound great, have 'active-style' capabilities (caps separate from the mic bodies), and fit in your budget. MBHOs + PMD661 would be a sweet rig...

what are PFA's

su6oxone · « **Reply #22 on:** January 20, 2011, 10:19:56 PM »

Quote from: Bean on January 20, 2011, 09:48:48 PM

what are PFA's

They're phantom power adapters that Naiant makes, allowing you to use a Schoeps CMR setup (for example) with a pre/recorder that provides P48.

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #23 on:** January 20, 2011, 10:39:26 PM »

Quote from: su6oxone on January 20, 2011, 10:19:56 PM

Quote from: Bean on January 20, 2011, 09:48:48 PM
what are PFA's

They're phantom power adapters that Naiant makes, allowing you to use a Schoeps CMR setup (for example) with a pre/recorder that provides P48.

So the Naiant tinybox doesnt provide the +48v

willndmb · « **Reply #24 on:** January 21, 2011, 08:41:02 AM »

Quote from: Bean on January 20, 2011, 10:39:26 PM

Quote from: su6oxone on January 20, 2011, 10:19:56 PM
Quote from: Bean on January 20, 2011, 09:48:48 PM
what are PFA's

They're phantom power adapters that Naiant makes, allowing you to use a Schoeps CMR setup (for example) with a pre/recorder that provides P48.

So the Naiant tinybox doesnt provide the +48v

no
the littlebox does 48v
the tiny does 16 i think it is

cashandkerouac · « **Reply #25 on:** January 21, 2011, 12:56:11 PM »

thanks to everyone for the helpful feedback. after a lot of back and forth and indecision about the digital recorder i'm gonna go with the Sony PCM-M10, Church Audio CA-14 cardioids and a 9100 pre-amp. i'm sure i'll get some add'l mics in the near future for non-stealth situations, but for now i think that set-up will be a huge improvement over my Zoom H-4 with the intenal mics.

su6oxone · « **Reply #26 on:** January 21, 2011, 03:52:37 PM »

You might still want to consider this MBHO 'actives' + Sound Devices MP-2 package on the yard sale:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=142355.0

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #27 on:** January 21, 2011, 04:11:37 PM »

Quote from: su6oxone on January 21, 2011, 03:52:37 PM

You might still want to consider this MBHO 'actives' + Sound Devices MP-2 package on the yard sale:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=142355.0

Agreed, thats a helluva deal

mloewen · « **Reply #28 on:** January 31, 2011, 05:56:34 PM »

Quote from: cashandkerouac on January 21, 2011, 12:56:11 PM

thanks to everyone for the helpful feedback. after a lot of back and forth and indecision about the digital recorder i'm gonna go with the Sony PCM-M10, Church Audio CA-14 cardioids and a 9100 pre-amp. i'm sure i'll get some add'l mics in the near future for non-stealth situations, but for now i think that set-up will be a huge improvement over my Zoom H-4 with the intenal mics.

I think you willl be pleased I started with an H-2 and went to the Sony and Church -14s and 9100 and I love it

cashandkerouac · « **Reply #29 on:** January 31, 2011, 09:10:03 PM »

Quote from: mloewen on January 31, 2011, 05:56:34 PM

Quote from: cashandkerouac on January 21, 2011, 12:56:11 PM
thanks to everyone for the helpful feedback. after a lot of back and forth and indecision about the digital recorder i'm gonna go with the Sony PCM-M10, Church Audio CA-14 cardioids and a 9100 pre-amp. i'm sure i'll get some add'l mics in the near future for non-stealth situations, but for now i think that set-up will be a huge improvement over my Zoom H-4 with the intenal mics.
I think you willl be pleased I started with an H-2 and went to the Sony and Church -14s and 9100 and I love it

the Church gear should arrive in about three weeks. i'm looking forward to putting the new set-up to work at the Clapton shows in early March.