Topic: Audience/Comedian Recording

[andrewspano]

Sorry if this has been posted before but I have exhausted every forum/option and can't find a solution.  I am a comedian and would like to get a good recording of show performances.  I currently have a Canon Vixia HF S10 with an SGM-1x Shotgun Microphone.  What is the best way to record my voice AND get a decent recording of the audience laughter?  People have tried to explain this stuff to me before but I have *NO* experience with it and don't understand most "audio lingo" so please explain it as if you were talking to a child.  Would I need different/more mics or will this do?  Any info would be greatly appreciated, thanks a lot. 

[achalsey]

Well, since no one has bitten yet, I'll give my VERY amateur opinion (maybe someone with more knowledge will be kind enough to tell me I'm an idiot and tell you the right way to do it).

I'll start by asking, where do you put your mic?  Placement is key to getting a good recording and since its a very directional (as in picks up just what its pointed at) mic this is even more important.  Also, since it seems like its mostly used for video recording I'm assuming its not going to be great from a distance.  Because of the directionality of the mic, it is probably going to have to be a compromise between voice and audience ambiance (its made to keep the ambiance out).  Two options, depending on your stand up style.  If you move around during your performance (you don't want to hold that monster) get it set up close (and pointed directly at) one of the main speakers you'll probably be happy, but the mic is made to not pick up other noise that is not coming from where its pointed, so you might not get as much laughter as hoping, but since theoretically nothing would be coming through the PA it might work well.  If you stay at a stand, you could mount it to the stand about will get a good recording, though it would most likely look a little silly and again wouldn't get as much crowd noise as you'd like.

Not sure how much you get out, but trying putting the mic in different places and see what works best.  That is terrible help, sorry: try putting it up close to the stacks (speakers) and move it back from there to see what is the right combo of voice and crowd.  (PA systems are different so it won't be perfect once you find the right spot, but what are you going to do.)

Lastly, what kind of disposable income do you have?   

If you want to spend some money the options are almost limitless.  Seeing as you already have a mic, my first (cheapest) option I'd suggest is buy a hand held recorder (Edirol R09-HR, Sony M10, Tascam DR-07/8, iRiver H1xx are popular affordable options, but like everything else there are many others to choose from) and record through the soundboard.  I'm not sure how PA mixing works for voice only, but I assume it'd be mixed pretty well for just vocals (and if you are friendly with the sound guy you can also have a mix done for the recorder that will sound beautiful).  NOW, fix the mic somewhere where it will pick the the best part of the crowd.  Now you have yourself a mint copy of basically a studio recording of you and a great recording of live crowd reaction.

If you want to put a few hundred dollars into different mics you can get GREAT recordings and, again, have limitless options, but thats another story for another time. 

[andrewspano]

so your saying get a handheld recorder and record through the soundboard?  Ok, then what?  do i just sync the audio to the video later when I'm editing the video? 

also, it appears that the shotgun mic isnt good for audience because, like you said, it only pics up what it is pointed at so perhaps an omni mic would be better?  do you think that would pick up the crowd?  thanks so much.

[achalsey]

I only recommend recording through the soundboard if you're going to do a matrix (combo of different sources) with another audience recording.  The soundboard will most likely sound amazing, if mixed right, but it only pics up your vocals and basically none of the audience, so you'd need to augment in laughs with another track.

First off, what are you willing to spend on additional gear?  That'll help narrow down the options and make it easier for others to give direct responses here. 

I don't know enough about matrices to answer most questions well, but I'd hazard to guess (and I am actually guessing here, someone else will need to verify if this is right or wrong) that a decent pair of cardioid (directional but not super directional) mics, or even some hyper cardioid (super directional, like yours) and point them out into the crowd (from the stage lip or something) to get as much of the crowd with as little as the PA as possible to make the crowd noise/laughter as clear as possible.  Putting an omni mic in the middle of the room or something is definitely an option and will pick up everything like its supposed to, but I'm assuming the recording will be somewhat muddled by the PA it will pick up too.

And to answer your first question second, yes, you would sync afterward.  I don't know enough about post product, but plenty of people here can help with matrix questions, and there is a sticky also (but honestly for someone not knowing what they're doing, I didn't find it to be the perfect guide). 

I assume it will be easier to matrix a good sounding recording from the soundboard and audience pull from a comedians standpoint since the crowd noise will be picked up with out a blaring PA system, but not positive.

[achalsey]

actually, I'll amend my post now that I think about it.  The matrix is definitely a way to go, but I'm still thinking in terms of concerts not comedy clubs.

The soundboard/audience mix will sound pretty professional if you get a good recording of the audience laughing and mix the two, but I'm thinking there is also an easier third option given the nature of the PA output.

Since you are actually looking for crowd noise (I was thinking inside the box, we like to keep crowd noise out) a good pair of omnis split a couple feet apart in a good sounding spot would probably work well.

What kind of quality are you looking for?  Are you trying to do something professional you can sell or just have to check for timing, review jokes and whatnot.  If you're trying to get a recording just to have, you have tons of affordable options.  If you're trying to get something you'll be proud of selling the options dwindle somewhat but can definitely happen for a couple hundred bucks (just imagine, once you pay off the gear, its pure profit!).

More questions: what kind of clubs are you expecting to be recording in?  Small, dark, acoustically terrible, with drunk crowds chatting a lot?  And will you have any significant others/friends along to man the rig while you're on stage?  (not entirely necessary but it could be trouble to leave a few hundred (not to mention thousands as some have) dollars worth of equipment where someone could take it/bump into it/spill something on it ect...)

Lastly, where are you located?  I'm not sure if this is appropriate (I'm pretty new to the community and online forums in general) but people here are great and seem to like all things fun, so if you put it out there where you'll be slanging laughs and ask if anyone wants to come out and tape and possibly give you a few pointers (maybe for a ticket or just a beer if you feel so inclined) there might be some interest somewhere.

[andrewspano]

a few things:  when you say mixes and matrixes, I have no idea what you're talking about lol - the quality I'm looking for is something like this http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8606550486520450917#

I guess I can just point my shotgun at the speaker to get my voice and record the audience separately but i still dont know what the best equipment would be or where to set it up.  I'd like to not spend more than $200 really... most of the places I work will be 200-500 people in small theater-like areas.  I am located in San Diego if anyone wants to meet up and show me some stuff please let me know.

[12milluz]

When the pros record a live show, they of course mix the bands mics but they also have audience mics. I would try something similar here. I would take your mic off the soundboard and also have 2 condensers(nice omnis) over the audience. Then sync it with video after. Make sure you get those audience mics high so you pick up the whole crowd and not just the few people right in front of them. I think that not taking your main mic off the soundboard(and just using omnis to pick up everything) would be a waste of a great quality source.

[achalsey]

A "matrix" is just a digital mix of two or more sources.  Like, say getting two recordings, one from the soundboard and one from mics in the audience and mix them together through a computer program later (or getting an expensive multichannel recorder, but that is probably not the way you want to go), thats a matrix.  Here is a relatively simple explanation:

http://www.shoey.com/dat/matrix.asp

Its a little wordy, but basically says: "Three options for recording: 1, straight through the soundboard (clean sound, no audience ambiance), 2, from mics in the audience (can be a muddy recording), 3, get both and mix them together later.  Option 3 is best, but can be tough because of a very small difference in timing when the sound (the digital 1s and 0s) is recorded both through SBD (soundboard) and the audience mics.  (for a comedy show this might not be such a problem since its only 1000ths of seconds off, but I don't know how crucial the timed laughter is supposed to be.)  BUT, there are programs to correct this issue in post production so not to worry."

To respond to the link of quality you're looking for, that sounds like it'll be expensive if you're looking for an audience mic rig (which 99 % of people here use) BUT I would hazard to guess that recording didn't come for an audience placed mic setup.

THAT BEING SAID THOUGH, how do you like the recordings your mic now gets?  I'd suggest trying different placements of that pointed somehow so it'll pick up the best sounding laughter and see how you like the clarity of the laughter.  If you are happy with how the laughs sound, then look into a small digital recorder (the ones I mentioned before are a little pricey for your said budget but are the popular "affordable" ones in this hobby, just google "compact portable digital recorder" and look over reviews.)  With the digital recorder you can record through the soundboard which, if mixed (as in the mixture of bass/treble ect... coming through the SBD) are set correctly, will sound perfect, if its the same mix that comes out the PA it will likely sound great too (I don't know how sound guys mix PA systems to sound best in a club with vocals only, for bands the mix is different than what would sound best on a home system, but you might not have that problem.)

Now you're all set and just have to figure out some computer programs that allow you to mix the recordings and you have a pretty darn good product.  HA, reading this all back it seems slightly overwhelming.  Its a lot of work, especially on the computer end, but if you're interested in it, it can be a fun project.  But if you're not really too into it after trying, that's why people pay for this type of work.

Being in San Diego, you could try to post in the "Team SoCal" page on the team boards to see if anyone wants to come out and possibly tape the show. (not too many people have been reading this thread)  I'd just say subtly, "that you're a comedian and looking to get good recordings of gigs.  If anyone wants to come to a show I'd be more than happy, and if you also wanted to give me a couple taping tips as well, I'd appreciate it, if not it'll be a good night of comedy either way."  If anything, its just free advertising.

[stevetoney]

Just a couple of quick thoughts I'll throw out there.  First is that if you were to use an omni mic set up (or pair to make a nice sounding ambience) between wherever your voice is being projected (PA speaker) and the audience, you should pick up both yourself and the audience since the omni records 360 degrees.

Second is if you happen to have a stage monitor, you could set a directional mic (or pair) up in front of the monitor pointing out towards the crowd.  The mic would of course pick up your voice from the monitor and the crowd beyond it.

That said, I think your best bet would be to record your voice and the audience to separate mics onto separate tracks and then mix them to taste in post. 

2 cents worth

[mattmiller]

Just a couple of quick thoughts I'll throw out there.  First is that if you were to use an omni mic set up (or pair to make a nice sounding ambience) between wherever your voice is being projected (PA speaker) and the audience, you should pick up both yourself and the audience since the omni records 360 degrees.

Second is if you happen to have a stage monitor, you could set a directional mic (or pair) up in front of the monitor pointing out towards the crowd.  The mic would of course pick up your voice from the monitor and the crowd beyond it.

That said, I think your best bet would be to record your voice and the audience to separate mics onto separate tracks and then mix them to taste in post. 

2 cents worth

Given that this is comedy and not loud amplified music, would a directional mic give a more desirable mix of him and the crowd?  It seems that, in an environment where the crowd laughter (if he's any good, that is!) could be as loud or louder than his voice, the omnis might bias too much towards the room.  I can't say for sure, but it's something to think about.

[stevetoney]

^^ Very possible.  I've never recorded comedy so was just passing on some logical thoughts that hadn't been offered yet.  As stated, my suggestions are worth about two cents...or perhaps only one.   

[illconditioned]

Just a comment here: The ideal situation is a "matrix", two mics plus a soundboard feed, but this needs three or four tracks (or two stereo recorders).  If you've only got two tracks, such as a consumer camcorder or stereo recorder, you could take one track from the soundboard, and the second from a (mono) audience mic.  Then mix the two together, perhaps with slightly variable proportions, or variable delays.  The sound of the audience will be mono, but it will still produce a nice result.  Some people prefer this, others prefer just two mics, a stereo "audience recording".  I would go for soundboard + mono mic in cases where you can't get very good mic positions, such as when you are really close making video (*).  I would go for two mics when you can get mics in the "sweet spot" in the room.  It might seem that soundboard is better, but with quality mics and a good location, many people prefer the natural sound of an audience recording.

(*) A cool trick I've seen for video is to have a single (mono) mic on the camera, and use a wireless pack to send the soundboard signal to the video camera.  When the soundboard is not available, put a mono mic way up close to get a clear PA recording, and again use a wireless to send to your camera.  So one channel is clear audio, and the other channel is from the video camera, wherever it is out front of the stage.

Have fun!

  Richard

[andrewspano]

let me give you an example of the sound I'm looking for maybe this will help...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8606550486520450917#

[guysonic]

Simpliest and likely producing the best quality for money/ease of setup is use Sony PCM-M10's on-board mics with deck set in 24bit depth/44.1K sample mode,  mic input set on Stereo, full manual level switch setting, and use ONLY the mic input sensitivity on 'LOW' switch setting (maybe best tape over this switch).   

Adjust REC level control to between 6-to-full- up #10 depending so getting maximum VU peaks of about -12 dB while performing.

Mount the deck on a photo tripod in front of you just behind main mic, or better get a photo 1/4" thread to standard mic 5/8" thread adapter so deck can now mount on a standard mic stand placed either directly centered of main mic (only if you're always stationary), of place deck between centered stage mic and first row recording both the PA speakers/audience if you move around with handheld mic while performing.

[Church-Audio]

Mixer

Ch 1 Comedian vocal mic. * Limit this mic big time * so when he or she does retarded things with his mic it will not overload your channel.

Ch 2 Feed via omni mic right  ( Room mics )  With limiter Slight limiting
Ch 3 Feed via omni mic left   ( Room mics )   With limter Slight limiting

Out of the board premixed into your camera line input.

You can ask the house sound tech to do this You can and monitor with headphones.

Mix the audience about 50% less then the Comedian.

That would be the best way to do this.. Since I have done this many times in the past.

Chris

[andrewspano]

i really appreciate your help but i dont understand aword u guys are saying... dont kno what mixer, slighting, channels or any of this stuff means lol  help me out.

[Church-Audio]

i really appreciate your help but i dont understand aword u guys are saying... dont kno what mixer, slighting, channels or any of this stuff means lol  help me out.

OK

What do you want to be able to do with this recording? Send it to perspective clients? If so I suggest hiring someone to do this. Because if you don't understand what a mixer is you don't have a chance in hell of pulling this off. No offence.. But I am not a comedian.. So me trying to do stand up would be like asking you to do sound.. When I want someone funny I pay them. When you want a pro recording done you pay them. The only other way to do this is to get a friend to sit in the audience and use a recorder like a RO9HR With the limiter set to the "on" position and then sync it up with video later on or run a line out of the headphone output into the line input of the camera. Again if you don't understand all this then I suggest hiring a professional. If how ever you are like me and like learning about things.. Get this book The Yamaha sound reinforcement handbook available here : http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reinforcement-Handbook-Yamaha-Products/dp/0881889008

[andrewspano]

No offense taken, I completely understand what you are saying... thanks a lot for your input I will read that book and if I still don't get it I will just hire someone.  Hopefully, this book will teach me everything I need to know... I hope it is SuperNewb Friendly haha.

[Church-Audio]

No offense taken, I completely understand what you are saying... thanks a lot for your input I will read that book and if I still don't get it I will just hire someone.  Hopefully, this book will teach me everything I need to know... I hope it is SuperNewb Friendly haha.

No one source will teach you "everything" I  think its cool you want to try and tackle this your self.. I suggest strongly trying to rent gear first then decide what you need / like then buy.. I would really try the RO9HR on a stand with the limiter on. That might get you in the ballpark. AGAIN audio is subjective... If you lived in Canada and lived near me I could show you the fundamentals and get you doing good recordings quickly.. You need to make friends with a good sound engineer. In your area who is willing to walk you through it. It might be worth your while to hire someone for a show who is easy going and willing to explain things and teach you. This is a hands on deal.. A book will only help you so much.

[andrewspano]

thanks so much.