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Author Topic: Why the heck do we use preamps anyway?  (Read 11515 times)

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hexyjones

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Re: Why the heck do we use preamps anyway?
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2004, 01:43:58 PM »
Ok Ok Ok...forget about the reality of all this...I'm talking about a hypothetical device...assume it exists for a second...

Can you at least admit - that - if it were possible...it would be way cool and useful to our hobby...

Offline Ed.

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Re: Why the heck do we use preamps anyway?
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2004, 01:48:44 PM »
maybe, but i like the preamp i have now, and it kicks ass over my preamp in my stereo at home.


Because nothing says "I have lots of money and am sort of confused as to how to spend it" like Bose.

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Why the heck do we use preamps anyway?
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2004, 01:51:54 PM »
Can you at least admit - that - if it were possible...it would be way cool and useful to our hobby...

If there were a way to capture the mic signal - without amplification - with very low noise at very high resolution and add gain later, sure, some people might find it cool.

:closes door on fantasyland:

Until then (or even if then), I'll enjoy the kick-ass gear I have now!   ;D
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Offline Todd R

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Re: Why the heck do we use preamps anyway?
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2004, 01:53:29 PM »
We want to capture the mic signal/voltage without any intervention  - and so accurately that we can use that signal to run into ANY preamp to achieve the sound we are looking for...make sense...?

No, to me it really does not make sense.  Perhaps in some completely theoretical world, but not in any real-world sense.  I can understand that you want to capture exactly what the mic is producing -- which is a very low level AC electrical current -- but there is no way to do this perfectly and exactly.  Any means by which to do this, whether capturing it on ferro-magnetic tape oxides or by digitizing it and storing it as a set of digital information, will add noise and anamolies to the original AC electrical signal coming from the mics.  Engineers can do their best to minimize this, but there will always be some level of noise in the system that they design.  The problem then is that the electrical signal coming off the mics is very small and on the order of the level of noise inherent in the system.  This is the noise floor that JKLabs alludes to.  It simply turns out that the best way to configure a system to most accurately capture that electrical signal coming from the mics is to add gain to the signal (as in the function of the mic preamp) so that the inherent noise of the system has less of an effect on the now higher level signal that is captured and digitized.  The process of adding gain adds some noise, but overall, the amount of noise and anomolies that the original mic signal is subject to is less than if no gain were added.

The bottom line is the systems we are using, including a mic preamp stage, are the best methods available to try to meet the theoretical pinnacle you're seeking -- an accurate capture of the electrical signal coming off the mics.  My guess is that the components simply are not available/able to be produced that can have a low enough noise floor that a low-level mic-produced electrical signal can be captured accurately without first applying gain to that signal (ie, using a mic preamp).  And even if such components could be made, they would need to be perfectly tuned to the sensitivity of your mics and the decibel level of the event you are trying to capture.  So even if they could be made, you'd need a different system to record Mule and a different system to record Yonder Mountain, and a different system to record un-amplified chamber music, and a different system....  Just not practical at all, and as I said, nothing that is able to be produced at this point anyway.
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jpschust

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Re: Why the heck do we use preamps anyway?
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2004, 01:54:51 PM »
im not sure that it has been elaborated as to why we add gain before our a/d processing.  by adding gain we give the a/d more to work with and on the best a/d chips with little room for error we get more accurate conversion from analog to digital.  that gain allows us a better quality result.

hexyjones

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Re: Why the heck do we use preamps anyway?
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2004, 02:01:45 PM »
We want to capture the mic signal/voltage without any intervention  - and so accurately that we can use that signal to run into ANY preamp to achieve the sound we are looking for...make sense...?

No, to me it really does not make sense.  Perhaps in some completely theoretical world, but not in any real-world sense.  I can understand that you want to capture exactly what the mic is producing -- which is a very low level AC electrical current -- but there is no way to do this perfectly and exactly.  Any means by which to do this, whether capturing it on ferro-magnetic tape oxides or by digitizing it and storing it as a set of digital information, will add noise and anamolies to the original AC electrical signal coming from the mics.  Engineers can do their best to minimize this, but there will always be some level of noise in the system that they design.  The problem then is that the electrical signal coming off the mics is very small and on the order of the level of noise inherent in the system.  This is the noise floor that JKLabs alludes to.  It simply turns out that the best way to configure a system to most accurately capture that electrical signal coming from the mics is to add gain to the signal (as in the function of the mic preamp) so that the inherent noise of the system has less of an effect on the now higher level signal that is captured and digitized.  The process of adding gain adds some noise, but overall, the amount of noise and anomolies that the original mic signal is subject to is less than if no gain were added.

The bottom line is the systems we are using, including a mic preamp stage, are the best methods available to try to meet the theoretical pinnacle you're seeking -- an accurate capture of the electrical signal coming off the mics.  My guess is that the components simply are not available/able to be produced that can have a low enough noise floor that a low-level mic-produced electrical signal can be captured accurately without first applying gain to that signal (ie, using a mic preamp).  And even if such components could be made, they would need to be perfectly tuned to the sensitivity of your mics and the decibel level of the event you are trying to capture.  So even if they could be made, you'd need a different system to record Mule and a different system to record Yonder Mountain, and a different system to record un-amplified chamber music, and a different system....  Just not practical at all, and as I said, nothing that is able to be produced at this point anyway.

Thanks - this answer makes the most sense to me...it's beyond the current technology...but not implausible?

[lose humor attempt]Wait - - -you mean the world isn't completely theoretical?[/lose humor attempt]

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Why the heck do we use preamps anyway?
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2004, 02:02:39 PM »
Thanks, Todd.  +T
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Offline Lil Kim Jong-Il

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Re: Why the heck do we use preamps anyway?
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2004, 02:06:18 PM »
There is a physical limit to the sensitivity of a voltage differential detector implemented in silicon.  That sensitivity limit is a certain voltage increment.  The ADC operates by determining the integer multiple of that incremental sensitivity for a given sample of a signal.  

If the voltage increment that can be detected is very small compared to the sampled signal, then the ADC is said to be of high precision or have good resolution.  Such a system will have small relative quantization error.

If the input signal is small and only a few integer multiples of the ADC voltage resolution, then the ADC will have poor precision and the quantization error will be high realtive to the signal.

The point here is that in order to get a high resolution precise digital conversion, one must maximize the peak value of the integer multiples used to describe the signal.  

There are two ways to do this: 1) decrease the differential increment relative to the signal or 2) increase the signal relative to the differential increment.  Because the former option is constrained by the physical limitations of the device implementation, the common method is to scale the input signal to maximize the value of the integer multiple reported by the ADC. 

So to answer your original question, the reason we use preamps is to scale the input signal to allow a better resolution at the ADC.

For your uber-ADC to exist, you are going to have to overcome the physical limits of the detector resolution to get a high precision recording of a low level signal.  

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hexyjones

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Re: Why the heck do we use preamps anyway?
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2004, 02:10:08 PM »
There is a physical limit to the sensitivity of a voltage differential detector implemented in silicon.  That sensitivity limit is a certain voltage increment.  The ADC operates by determining the integer multiple of that incremental sensitivity for a given sample of a signal. 

If the voltage increment that can be detected is very small compared to the sampled signal, then the ADC is said to be of high precision or have good resolution.  Such a system will have small relative quantization error.

If the input signal is small and only a few integer multiples of the ADC voltage resolution, then the ADC will have poor precision and the quantization error will be high realtive to the signal.

The point here is that in order to get a high resolution precise digital conversion, one must maximize the peak value of the integer multiples used to describe the signal.   

There are two ways to do this: 1) decrease the differential increment relative to the signal or 2) increase the signal relative to the differential increment.  Because the former option is constrained by the physical limitations of the device implementation, the common method is to scale the input signal to maximize the value of the integer multiple reported by the ADC. 

So to answer your original question, the reason we use preamps is to scale the input signal to allow a better resolution at the ADC.

For your uber-ADC to exist, you are going to have to overcome the physical limits of the detector resolution to get a high precision recording of a low level signal. 



Extra thanks to you...that makes even more sense...

Offline jk labs

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Re: Why the heck do we use preamps anyway?
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2004, 04:19:33 PM »

Thanks - this answer makes the most sense to me...it's beyond the current technology...but not implausible?


This is a "difficult" discussion because you're discussing three very different issues at the same time:
1) levels & noisefloor
2) signal degradation
3) capturing acoustic energy to a representation suitable for storage.

The first is covered in this thread to some extent.

The second.. mmm..  well it's a can of worms anyways and it's xmas soon.

The third: YES there are alternatives in existance. Look for AES papers on digital, optical etc microphones to get a glimpse into what is possible.   

BobW

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Re: Why the heck do we use preamps anyway?
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2005, 09:34:38 PM »
Anyone hearing much about the new digital mics ?

The workshop at AES

Neumann's Solution-D


Looks like Georg Neumann's leading the way......
« Last Edit: January 05, 2005, 09:36:40 PM by Ohm »

Offline MattD

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Re: Why the heck do we use preamps anyway?
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2005, 10:09:04 PM »
I looked at the Solution-D almost 2 years ago - even before I picked up my SR77s. I think it required AC for the controller box, if I recall.
Out of the game … for now?

hexyjones

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Re: Why the heck do we use preamps anyway?
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2005, 10:14:08 PM »
Anyone hearing much about the new digital mics ?

The workshop at AES

Neumann's Solution-D


Looks like Georg Neumann's leading the way......

Gosh - looks like I'm not as crazy as I sound... :-*

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Why the heck do we use preamps anyway?
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2005, 10:36:21 PM »

Say, 2 years from now, you luck into some sort of sweet high-end preamp...you think "Boy I wish I had had this thing at the 04 SCI NYE show!" - - Well...with my system - you can...just go back to your "mic master" and send the signal through your new pre...


well that says it all, hes a cheesehead :P
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hexyjones

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Re: Why the heck do we use preamps anyway?
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2005, 10:52:34 PM »

Say, 2 years from now, you luck into some sort of sweet high-end preamp...you think "Boy I wish I had had this thing at the 04 SCI NYE show!" - - Well...with my system - you can...just go back to your "mic master" and send the signal through your new pre...


well that says it all, hes a cheesehead :P

Wrong - I've heard a few minutes of SCI - nothing more...dl'ed the T-giving show for friends...

...something about hula hoops?

 

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