Topic: Just Out of Curiosity (Schoeps + 722/744 Content)

[grider]

if Schoeps are so popular and are widely considered outstanding mics, and since the 722/744 is considered such an easy to use and state of the art all in one box, why is no one pairing Schoeps mics with the 722/744 units?  I don't recall ever seeing a recording made with this combination in circulation, which seems strange; I see DPA, AKG and MG but no Schoeps, what's the story?

[MattD]

I imagine that the low end on that recording would be out of control. I'd be willing to try, though. I don't know many locals with Schoeps. Sleepypedro has a set - perhaps next time he and I meet up at a show, we can. If not, Skalinder and I can do a recording in the fall - but I'm sure there'll be Schoeps > 722 sources out by then.

[Brian]

whenever i get my 722(should be soon actually) all of my recordings will either be schoeps>722 or schoeps>v2>722.

i'm not so sure the low end would be out of control though.  maybe using the 722/744t pre's, but that's nothing that can't be fixed in post if it needs it.  I kept my v2 because i'm positive it is better than the internal pres of the SD units.  I'm willing to bet bass response/management would bet much better as well.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Weren't those Panic-Fox Theater shows recorded with MK41s>M248>722?  I haven't listened to them in a while but I remember that they are very warm.  Those MK41s have much less bass rolloff than the AK43s.  The AK43 tapes I've made sound more even.  To the purest, that is probably an indictment of both the AK43 and the 722 ;-)

[Brian]

mk41 = hypercardioid

ak43 = wide cardioid

bass between these two caps are two different ball games IMO with the ak43 not having that much rolloff on the lows if any at all

did you mean ak50s? if so that makes sense

edit: and yes the panic atlanta run recorded by Waldron (Joe W.) were definitely schoeps>oade pre>722

[Zee]

Weren't those Panic-Fox Theater shows recorded with MK41s>M248>722?  I haven't listened to them in a while but I remember that they are very warm.  Those MK41s have much less bass rolloff than the AK43s.  The AK43 tapes I've made sound more even.  To the purest, that is probably an indictment of both the AK43 and the 722 ;-)

over on digitalpanic fox has some shows seeding but with the v3 digi out. I think at the gorge he was running just the pre out of the v3. Im going to run some comps with the 4022>722 and 4022>v2>722 in LA to see what its all about.

[Brian Skalinder]

I also think part of the reason you don't see all that many Schoeps > 7xx recordings is because quite a few of us are incredibly pleased with our Schoeps > V3 combos (and me, anyway, waiting for an affordable, basic 24-bit recorder).

[gewwang]

Boswell and Pollock run Schoeps>722/44

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

mk41 = hypercardioid

ak43 = wide cardioid

bass between these two caps are two different ball games IMO with the ak43 not having that much rolloff on the lows if any at all

did you mean ak50s? if so that makes sense

edit: and yes the panic atlanta run recorded by Waldron (Joe W.) were definitely schoeps>oade pre>722

The 40s and 43s have a little more rolloff (1-2db diff at 50hz if I'm reading the chart right) compared to the MK4 on the response charts I found.  I never owned schoeps so don't know first hand.  I guess I say the neumanns rolloff because the DPA4023s are flat to below 50hz.  In any case, the AK43 and MK41 have about the same bass roll-off curve (down 4db @ 50hz).  So since the neumans have that HF boost, they seem to balance out the bass accentuation of the 722.    Schoeps being flat on top, the schoeps>722 tapes I heard seem to suffer from the bass accentuation of the 722.

I'm having a hard time believing that the 722 is flat compared to the tapes I got with the V3.  Maybe it's just my abused ears but I think the schoeps>V3 I've heard is a more even sounding blend.  The only schoeps>722 tapes I have are those fox shows, so maybe it was the mix that night or the room but they seem really strong in the low end resulting in the high end being a bit recessed.

So mildly off topic - has anyone done a straight up comp using the V3 or V2 to line in on the 722?  I'm wondering if the LF accentuation I hear in the 722 mic input would still be there using the line input.

[JasonR]

I think this is pretty representative of what my rig sounds like: http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=15313

- Jason

[creekfreak]

average schoeps user spent too much on the mics and can't afford the 722

[Brian]

In any case, the AK43 and MK41 have about the same bass roll-off curve (down 4db @ 50hz).

not really.  they might both be -4dB down at 50Hz but, the AK43's go down all the way to 20Hz.  the MK41's stop at 40Hz.

that means a lot on terms of bass management IMO.

I definitely take back what i said about the 43's not having that much rolloff though.  -12dB @ 20Hz is a pretty good rolloff......most of it starting below 50Hz.  However, I think frequencies below 60Hz need to be attenuated somewhat for our purposes anyway for better overall response.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

not really.  they might both be -4dB down at 50Hz but, the AK43's go down all the way to 20Hz.  the MK41's stop at 40Hz.

I didn't realize that they don't go that low. I thought that chart was truncated. I see now that the specification table indicates the bottom is 40hz.

Go neumanns ;-)

[cfbarlow]

Yo Chris, I have a killer NMAS show from South Carolina that is MK 21 NOS ->cmc6XT->V3 (pre-AD)->722 and it smokes!!  Let me know if you want a copy, I'll send it out.

[Brian]

not really. they might both be -4dB down at 50Hz but, the AK43's go down all the way to 20Hz. the MK41's stop at 40Hz.

Go neumanns ;-)

it's just too hard, for me, to decide between those top three!

one day i want schoeps, the next i want neumanns, two days later i want DPA's.

hopefully i can just own them all eventually

[Ed.]

one day i want schoeps, the next i want neumanns, two days later i want DPA's.

throw in MG's and i suffer from the same symptoms.

[Kevin Straker]

average schoeps user spent too much on the mics and can't afford the 722

Nah, that's just me. Most people just like a better preamp.

[Brian Skalinder]

they might both be -4dB down at 50Hz but, the AK43's go down all the way to 20Hz. the MK41's stop at 40Hz.

AK43s are subcardioids, MK41s are supercardioids, so to compare apples to apples we should really talk about AK43 v. MK21 and AK50 v. MK41:

sub / wide cardioids
AK43:  20 Hz - 20 kHz
MK21:  30 Hz - 20 kHz

hyper / super cardioids
AK50:  20 Hz - 20 kHz
MK41:  40 Hz - 20 kHz

Now, these are only the published frequency ranges for these mic caps.  It's a shame more manufacturers don't list the full frequeny range for their mics.  I guarantee the Schoeps caps don't just "stop" at 30 and 40Hz, respectively - I know because I've performed frequency analyses on recordings I've made.  What it really boils down to is that we have two manufacturers taking two different approaches to publishing their frequency response specs:

• Schoeps doesn't list the full range for the caps (20Hz - 20kHz), but does publish the freq response graph.  I suspect they don't list the full (20Hz - 20kHz) range because they want the frequency response graphs to appear as flat as possible, and showing the graph all the way down to 20 Hz would appear less flat.
• Neumann lists the full range (20Hz - 20kHz), but doesn't publish graphs.  They've taken the opposite marketing approach:  look how low are mics go in frequency response!  (By the way, we're not going to tell you what a drastic slope there is below 30-40Hz).

Based on the specs published by the manufacturers, it's impossible to know which provides better low frequency response.  Do the Schoeps roll off more steeply than their Neumann counterparts?  I don't know since I cannot find full frequency response graphs from Neumann and Schoeps.  But I suspect they both slope off fairly significantly below 30Hz (for sub/wid) or 40Hz (for hyper/super).  Based on recordings I've heard, I bet the AK50s slope off more than the MK41s.  No idea on the subcards, as I haven't heard or used the AK43s.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Brian, the neumannusa site has frequency response graphs.  http://www.neumann.com/infopool/mics/produkte.php?ProdID=km100 and click on "diagrams".

I know that the MK41 vs AK34 is not a perfect comparison, but all I have to go on for schoeps>722 is the Fox Panic recordings so I drew from the MK41 charts.

The AK50s do have a damn steep dropoff.  I had AK50s for a few years and I almost went to the schoeps because I lusted after the MK41s.  But in the end I decided to stay with the AK40 and AK43 and just work to get into position where I didn't need hypers.

[Brian Skalinder]

Brian, the neumannusa site has frequency response graphs. http://www.neumann.com/infopool/mics/produkte.php?ProdID=km100 and click on "diagrams".

Ahhh...nice!  Thanks for the link, missed 'em somehow - I think because I went straight to the AKx page instead of the KM100 page.

But in the end I decided to stay with the AK40 and AK43 and just work to get into position where I didn't need hypers.

A wise choice! 

[Brian]

they might both be -4dB down at 50Hz but, the AK43's go down all the way to 20Hz. the MK41's stop at 40Hz.

AK43s are subcardioids, MK41s are supercardioids, so to compare apples to apples.........

thanks.  i said that already but i decided to continue the discussion anyway 

at any rate.  it's interesting to compare the specs.  I personally think specs say a lot more than others around here think they do, but i guess you could call me a spec geek when it comes to gear.

bottom line.  they are all great microphones

[BC]

at any rate.  it's interesting to compare the specs.  I personally think specs say a lot more than others around here think they do, but i guess you could call me a

I am a spec geek too, but I totally agree that the spec #'s can be misleading. AK50 20-20KHz? Ok, maybe 20 dB down at 20Hz!     Those suckers are SO SO bright to my ears. The MK41 has the nicest low end to my ears of all the hyper caps out there, definitely my fave hyper, with the MG 210 right behind. Just thinking out loud...

[jacallery]

If you are real nice to the guys in Germany, you can special order schoeps bodies and caps that like to go into the lower Hz range

there is a difference.

[Brian Skalinder]

If you are real nice to the guys in Germany, you can special order schoeps bodies and caps that like to go into the lower Hz range

there is a difference.

These?

CMC “linear”

(Formerly marked with a dash.)
CMC microphone amplifiers normally have a gradual rolloff below 30 Hz (20 Hz in the CMC 6) to guard against infrasonic disturbances from various sources such as air movement and vibration. However, when using pressure (omnidirectional) transducers, particularly with digital recording, it can be desirable to pick up frequencies below 20 Hz without attenuation. The special technology of the CMC microphone amplifiers makes this possible; on request we can deliver microphone amplifiers with response that is flat to as low as 3 Hz.

Caution must be advised with respect to infrasonics, however. Since pressure transducers can pick up very low frequencies, ventilation systems in large spaces (churches, concert halls) can create a problem. With pressure gradient transducers the risk is even greater. They are far less sensitive to very low frequency sound, but respond much more strongly to unwanted low-frequency stimuli such as air currents and solid-borne noise. Although such signals may be below the audible range of frequencies, they can overload electronic circuitry and produce severe distortion.

[jacallery]

that would be the bodies, even though 3Hz seems too low, it is worth it. A difference can certainly be heard from the regular cmc6 bodies, esp when using the 41 caps, which tend to have capture less bass than other caps.  You do have to watch for air conditioning rumble or ceiling fans blowing air on the caps.  It shows up much worse than on regualr cmc6's.
On the low Hz caps , I have never ordered any, but I know someone who has, some years ago.  I actually use these "special" 41 caps occasionally and seems to my ears their is a difference in the low end.
I have never done a comparison though.  I'd like to.

[Joe w.]

i've run schoeps > 722 dozens of times....so has william boswell and jim pollock. run it with the neumann's quite a bit as well.

Weren't those Panic-Fox Theater shows recorded with MK41s>M248>722?  I haven't listened to them in a while but I remember that they are very warm.  Those MK41s have much less bass rolloff than the AK43s.  The AK43 tapes I've made sound more even.  To the purest, that is probably an indictment of both the AK43 and the 722 ;-)

those were my recordings. I thought they were a little bright to be honest. I ran 41v's>148>722 the 3rd night and the 148 warmed things up nicely. Now, mk4>248>722 would be very nice.

[Mic D]

I've been enjoying my Schoeps>v2>722 rig quite nicely, but most of my pulls have been straight schoeps>722 (which I've also been pleased with). I'll transfer/seed more eventually.

[Tim]

i've run schoeps > 722 dozens of times....so has william boswell and jim pollock. run it with the neumann's quite a bit as well.

Weren't those Panic-Fox Theater shows recorded with MK41s>M248>722? I haven't listened to them in a while but I remember that they are very warm. Those MK41s have much less bass rolloff than the AK43s. The AK43 tapes I've made sound more even. To the purest, that is probably an indictment of both the AK43 and the 722 ;-)

those were my recordings. I thought they were a little bright to be honest. I ran 41v's>148>722 the 3rd night and the 148 warmed things up nicely. Now, mk4>248>722 would be very nice.

d00d - you thought those were bright? I must need my ears cleaned then

btw - taking good care of your discs, I'll get em back to you next week

[Joe w.]

i've run schoeps > 722 dozens of times....so has william boswell and jim pollock. run it with the neumann's quite a bit as well.

Weren't those Panic-Fox Theater shows recorded with MK41s>M248>722? I haven't listened to them in a while but I remember that they are very warm. Those MK41s have much less bass rolloff than the AK43s. The AK43 tapes I've made sound more even. To the purest, that is probably an indictment of both the AK43 and the 722 ;-)

those were my recordings. I thought they were a little bright to be honest. I ran 41v's>148>722 the 3rd night and the 148 warmed things up nicely. Now, mk4>248>722 would be very nice.

d00d - you thought those were bright? I must need my ears cleaned then

btw - taking good care of your discs, I'll get em back to you next week

no worries, take your time. Hope you enjoy that video. 

[Tim]

that place is literally right up the street from me, I live on Ogden Street 

[Brian]

I've been enjoying my Schoeps>v2>722 rig quite nicely, but most of my pulls have been straight schoeps>722 (which I've also been pleased with). I'll transfer/seed more eventually.

would you mind expounding on your schoeps>722 recordings and how they sound?

i will be running schoeps>v2>722 as well but i am curious as how the schoeps match up with the 722 as an all in one. it would be nice to not have to bring out the V2+SLA all the time.

thanks!

[wbrisette]

i will be running schoeps>v2>722 as well but i am curious as how the schoeps match up with the 722 as an all in one. it would be nice to not have to bring out the V2+SLA all the time.

In the same vain, I'm curious what people who own the 722/744T think of the Pre-amps. I had one show where I had 4022 > 722, took the AES feed out and ran those into separate channels on the Deva. I wasn't impressed. Found out later neither was the owner of the 722. Could have been a bad mic configuration, but I wasn't impressed with how muddy the lower end sounded and that's not a characteristic you normally find with 4022 mics.

Wayne

[MattD]

If anyone believes it, I think the warmth of the 722's low end actually makes the 402x even less forgiving than a more neutral preamp. With a bad config/location, it's pretty easy to "blow up" the low end. I haven't been happy with the shows where I was stuck in the section - but that's nothing new to the 402x series. If you have run a pair for a while, you know this well. However, onstage or in "great sounding room" venues, the 722 brings life to the low end of my recordings. The ULN-2 was flat and more sterile in that respect and for me, the fits in quite nicely.

I haven't heard a recording yet that makes me want to deal with the hassle of running an external preamp into this box.

[Zee]

If anyone believes it, I think the warmth of the 722's low end actually makes the 402x even less forgiving than a more neutral preamp. With a bad config/location, it's pretty easy to "blow up" the low end. I haven't been happy with the shows where I was stuck in the section - but that's nothing new to the 402x series. If you have run a pair for a while, you know this well. However, onstage or in "great sounding room" venues, the 722 brings life to the low end of my recordings. The ULN-2 was flat and more sterile in that respect and for me, the fits in quite nicely.

I haven't heard a recording yet that makes me want to deal with the hassle of running an external preamp into this box.

After last weekend I will continue to run the V2 with the 722. Ive been running it both ways and I think the V2 takes the color out of the recording.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

After last weekend I will continue to run the V2 with the 722. Ive been running it both ways and I think the V2 takes the color out of the recording.

I'm glad to hear a strong opinion on this.  Any chance of you putting up a comparison clip of each?  Is the difference subtle?

[wboswell]

I've put up a Black Crowes mk21>kc5>cmc6xt>722 recording from the Thomas Wolfe in Asheville and recently, a mk41>kc5>cmc6xt>722 Dinosaur Jr. recording from the Variety (http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=16079 seeds are still around). 

The Black Crowes recording was a little heavy on the low end, but I don't want to lay blame on the 722...  the stand was never raised above 5' and was pretty far back in the auditorium to be running subcards.  I think if we'd have been a little closer, things may have turned out a bit nicer, but nonetheless, its a nice recording and is entirely listenable. 

I'm in love with the Dinosaur Jr. recording, though.  Its not quite as detailed as the V3, but as I've mentioned before, I think its a nice match with the mk41s.  Great imaging in that recording.  J.'s guitar will flatten you can hear Murph and Lou beside J., respectively, laying it down.  I can close put myself right back in the venue and hear them onstage.  Check it out if you're really interested in hearing the Schoeps>722 combo.  I think it speaks for itself.

One reason you don't see so many straight 722 recordings is that others, me included, haven't completely jumped ship from our older units, plus, its fun to play around with other options...  this IS supposed to be fun, right?  Sometimes we forget!

[nickgregory]

The Black Crowes recording was a little heavy on the low end, but I don't want to lay blame on the 722... the stand was never raised above 5' and was pretty far back in the auditorium to be running subcards. I think if we'd have been a little closer, things may have turned out a bit nicer, but nonetheless, its a nice recording and is entirely listenable.

sorry, the 5' was my fault...

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

I have said some nice things about the KM140>722 pulls I have and I stand by those.  But now that I've done enough shows in that configuration I'm interested in trying to get a different/better sound.  I guess that's my perverted sense of fun.

[Zee]

After last weekend I will continue to run the V2 with the 722. Ive been running it both ways and I think the V2 takes the color out of the recording.

I'm glad to hear a strong opinion on this.  Any chance of you putting up a comparison clip of each?  Is the difference subtle?

On  digitalpanic I have  7-12-05 4022>722 and 7-14-05 4022>V2>722 I ran the V2 all 3 nights at the wiltern so I dont have a venue comparison.

[Mic D]

Here's a link to one of my last pulls (Gov't Mule). Let me know if you need a seed.

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=15237

[tim in jersey]

FOB Mule 2005-06-05:

16 bit:  http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=15147
24 bit:  http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=15182

There are no seedesr on the 24 bit version, but I'll open a window for you when I get home in case you want to hear it.

[Brian]

here's a schoeps>722 source i recorded from a show in a bar(The Saloon @ 10k Lakes)

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=46989

[Rick]

i will be running schoeps>v2>722 as well but i am curious as how the schoeps match up with the 722 as an all in one. it would be nice to not have to bring out the V2+SLA all the time.

In the same vain, I'm curious what people who own the 722/744T think of the Pre-amps. I had one show where I had 4022 > 722, took the AES feed out and ran those into separate channels on the Deva. I wasn't impressed. Found out later neither was the owner of the 722. Could have been a bad mic configuration, but I wasn't impressed with how muddy the lower end sounded and that's not a characteristic you normally find with 4022 mics.

Wayne

Yes I wasn't happy. It sounded like crap  I'm hoping it was the venue, other wise I might switch to a V3/MicroTracker combo after ACL fest.

Rick

[nickgregory]

interesting Rick..I have only had the chance to run my 4022s->722 once and it was in a less than desirable venue and I was surprised how good it sounded...no looseness on the bottom end for me...need to run more tests though