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Offline Lenry

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Double ms for surround sound
« on: May 31, 2016, 09:56:10 AM »
I'm considering using these mics that are available to me for a double ms rig. I don't specifically have a figure 8 mic. How would you set this up? I have 3 preamp inputs on a Sound Devices 633 and 8 on a Zoom F8. Also have a mixpre D for 2 extra preamps. Want to be able to create surround sound. Which mics to use?

MKH50
MKH40
MKH 418s
MKH 416
2 Audio Technica omnis
An Audio Technica BP4025 stereo mic
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 09:57:47 AM by Lenry »

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Re: Double ms for surround sound
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2016, 04:03:28 PM »
What do you plan to do with the surround recordings?  Is this intended for live music recording?  Ambiance/location recording for film or TV?  Sound effects catalog?  Is having a microphone array setup which is super compact and mobile (used on the end of a hand-held boom pole perhaps) the most important thing, or is the audio quality of the surround listening experience more important to you?

These things will help with advising you on the most appropriate direction to pursue.

Dual M/S can be setup so as to be very compact and light-weight, and that "convenience factor" (along with only needing 3 recording channels) is its primary advantage.  It's surround sound quality is sufficient for 4-channel (quad) ambience/location beds, sound effects and such, but is somewhat less than optimal for music recording and the surround reproduction quality degrades rapidly when asked to produce 5 or more channels.  If your goal is surround music recording, you can setup a number of alternate microphone configurations using the microphones you have on hand which will work far better.  Those alternate configs will all use some amount of spacing between some or all of the microphone in the array instead of placing all the microphones coincident with each other.   They'll all use four recording channels at a minimum, and up to five, six or more depending on how complex you want to get and what you are aiming to achieve.

Different horses for different courses.

To answer your specific question- Your MKH418S is a Mid/Side stereo mic which provides two outputs that are recorded as Mid and Side channels and mixed later to produce Left and Right channels. One output (probably indicated as channel 1 or Mid) is the interference tube shotgun output, the other is (probably indicated as channel 2 or Side) is a figure-8 output.  You can make a Dual M/S array by using the MKH418S along with either the MKH40, the MKH50, or the MKH416.  The other mic will need to be pointed in the opposite direction and be placed as close as possible to the figure-8 capsule within the 418S so that it is coincident with it.  The figure-8 Side capsule in the 418S will be located at the back end of the long vented interference tube immediately behind it's supercardioid Mid capsule.  There is probably a second or third set of short vents just ahead of the mic body containing the amplifier section at the location of the Side fig-8 capsule.

After arranging the two microphones so as to be as coincidient and square, yet as unobstructed by each other as possible, and making the recording, you'll then need to route and mix the resulting three recorded channels to produce a quad L/R/Ls/Rs output.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 04:07:49 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline John Willett

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Re: Double ms for surround sound
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2016, 04:05:29 PM »
You'll need an MKH 30 for the fig.8.

Ideally, double-MS would be two MKH 40 and an MKH 30.

You could do it with a 30, 40 and 50.

Use the 30 and 40 in MS to get front left and right - the 40 on its own would be the centre.
Use the 30 and 50 in MS to get rear left and right.

Offline John Willett

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Re: Double ms for surround sound
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2016, 04:08:52 PM »
Your MKH418S is a Mid/Side stereo mic which provides two outputs that are recorded as Mid and Side channels and mixed later to produce Left and Right channels. One output (probably indicated as channel 1 or Mid) is the interference tube shotgun output, the other is (probably indicated as channel 2 or Side) is a figure-8 output. 

ALthough correct - the fig.8 in the MKH 418S is made up from back-to-back cardioids and is a bit noisy.

It's best held 6dB down in level from the mid mic.

But this mic. was originally designed as a sports mic. for teh WInter Olympics at Lillehammer - for sports it's great, but I would not use it for music or wildlife recording.

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Re: Double ms for surround sound
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2016, 04:24:27 PM »
Except he doesn't have an MKH 30 available to him.

He can make it work using the MKH418S to substitute for an MKH30 or some other preferable fig8.  Not ideal, but neither is dual M/S appropriate for music recording IMHO.  It's better suited for sports surround ambiance than recording music intended for surround playback.


Using the microphones he has listed above, he can at least make it work by:
1) Using both shotguns together with no other mics.
2) Using the 418S shotgun plus either the cardioid or supercard as the rear-facing Mid [edit- or the 418S pointed backwards and the MKH 40 or 50 facing forwards]
3) Using neither shotgun Mid (using only the Side output from the 418) and both the MKH 40 cardioid and MKH 50 supercardioid as Mids.

As for using both MKH 40 (cardioid) and 50 (supercardioid) as front/rear Mid microphones, I can see an argument for preferring the supercardioid (MKH 50) as the forward facing Mid and the cardioid (MKH 40) as the rear facing Mid depending on the specifics of the situation.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 04:31:06 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Lenry

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Re: Double ms for surround sound
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2016, 08:00:54 PM »
Thanks for the input. Maybe I will sell the MKH418s as it's in new condition (but I've had it in storage for a couple years) and pick up the 30. At this point, I'm in newbie learning mode and want to record nature sounds around my home. I have a wooded area just outside some windows and so could set up some gear and leave it. Animals, mostly birds, are quite active during the dawn hours. I could fit everything in a Zeppelin. Once that is accomplished, I'd visit some Florida state parks and make some nature recordings.
We just had a thunderstorm and they will be the source for several recording projects. What DAW would you suggest?

I've done some production audio recording which is paying for the gear.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 08:17:53 PM by Lenry »

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Re: Double ms for surround sound
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2016, 11:56:50 AM »
Regarding surround microphone arrays which will be most appropriate for recording nature ambiences, consider setups such as IRT-Cross or ORTF-surround.  These setups work well, are easy to understand and are compact enough to fit under an umbrella.  They use 4 cardioids or supercardioids to form 4 channel 360 degree extensions of the common near-spaced 2-channel stereo microphone techniques DIN and ORTF, which are familiar to stereo recordists.  In that way, they are similar extensions from 2 to 4 channels as Dual-M/S is a 360 degree extension of standard 2-channel Mid/Side or X/Y. 

Since these setups introduce some spacing between microphones, the difference in surround playback listening experience is somewhat similar to that of switching from a 2-channel stereo coincident microphone configuration to a near-spaced one.  But I find it a bit more compelling than that actually.  Coincident techniques such as M/S and X/Y record only level difference information between channels.  By introducing some spacing between the mics you'll also record time/phase difference information in addition to level difference information.  That time/phase information helps create a much more enveloping "you are there" type playback experience which to me is the most compelling and fundamentally important aspect of surround playback.  Coincident surround recordings can correctly portray individual sounds in the correct directions, sometimes a bit more precisely when listening from the sweet spot, but they do not convey that same sense of being fully surrounded and immersed within the recorded environment.  Spaced techniques tend to create a much larger playback "sweet zone" rather than a tightly confined "sweet spot" and allow for free movement of the listener within that playback zone without the virtual space and imaging collapsing to the nearest speaker.

IRT-cross is four cardioids arranged in a cross formation.  It's easy to setup with four mics forming a cross with a right angle between each 'leg'.  Another way of thinking of it is two DIN arrays (DIN = a pair cardioids spaced 12" and angled 90 degrees apart) placed back-to-back.  It's commonly used for surround ambience because although it's larger than a compact Dual-M/S array, it's still relatively compact and quite portable.  It won't fit within one zeppelin, but you can simply use a good windscreen on each mic like the Shure A81WS which is popular around here, maybe with individual furry windscreens for really windy conditions.

ORTF-surround is somewhat similar to two standard ORTF stereo setups placed back to back (standard ORTF is two cardioids spaced 17cm and angled 110 degrees apart). In the case of ORTF-surround, supercardioids spaced 20cm and angled 120 degrees apart are specified.  Two of those are placed back-to-back so that the second pair is 10cm behind the first and the angle between the adjacent microphones of each pair is 80 degrees.   You could use regular cardioids instead of supercardioids with some adjustment to the spacing/angle between mics.  You could probably do the same using a pair of cardioids and a pair of supercardioids.  Schoeps promotes ORTF-surround for sports and location ambiences, and it can fit within a large custom (and probably expensive) zepplin.

Here's a link to the Schoeps webpage covering all these surround recording options-  http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/categories/menue-surround.  Also on that page is information on OCT-surround which uses still more spacing between the microphones. Variations on OCT have become my prefered techniques for recording music in surround.  But those arrays are larger, usually more complex to setup, and although they also record 360 degree surround sound, they favor one particular direction over the others, which makes them more appropriate for recording music.  If interested, here's a link to a thread on the evolution of my techniques for surround music recording- http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=96009.msg1279052#msg1279052  The OCT varients are towards the latter end of the thread.  For years I was primarily using four omnis spaced about a meter apart, which also records nature ambiences quite well.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: Double ms for surround sound
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2016, 11:57:23 AM »
What DAW would you suggest?

Choice of DAW is somewhat personal. Partly due to the time investment required to develop mastery of the software.  Most all are equally able to do the basic tasks.  Most tapers tend to stick with what they know, as transitioning to another DAW requires re-learning how to do the same tasks.  The other driver is cost and a active user base to assist with questions.  It used to be that good surround-sound support was only available in a handful of DAWs or the more costly versions, but as they've slowly become more feature-rich over the years that's less the case today than it used to be. I use Samplitude, mostly because I have used it for years and know how to do the basic stuff I need using it, but I'm certainly no master at it.  If I was starting fresh I'd take a serious look at Reaper, which is very flexible, extensive and inexpensive, is in active development, has an active user base, and apparently has good surround support. There are a number of discussion threads here at TS discussing choice of DAWs, so you might want to search those out.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline John Willett

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Re: Double ms for surround sound
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2016, 05:51:56 AM »
Maybe I will sell the MKH418s as it's in new condition (but I've had it in storage for a couple years) and pick up the 30.

Definitely the best option - the 418S is really an OB sports mic.

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Double ms for surround sound
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2016, 09:28:41 AM »
Maybe I will sell the MKH418s as it's in new condition (but I've had it in storage for a couple years) and pick up the 30.

Definitely the best option - the 418S is really an OB sports mic.
I wanted to know what "OB sports mic" meant, so I googled that phrase. About 5-6 entries down was this rather interesting article with cool info:
http://www.live-production.tv/case-studies/production-facilities/microphone-usage-sports-broadcasting.html
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Re: Double ms for surround sound
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2016, 10:07:17 AM »
I wanted to know what "OB sports mic" meant, so I googled that phrase. About 5-6 entries down was this rather interesting article with cool info:
http://www.live-production.tv/case-studies/production-facilities/microphone-usage-sports-broadcasting.html

What I get from that article is that Schoeps microphones are the only microphones that should be used when capturing sound at a sporting event  ;D
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Offline H₂O

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Re: Double ms for surround sound
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2016, 10:11:13 AM »
It is written by Helmut Wittek though so I guess there is some bias there
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Re: Double ms for surround sound
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2016, 10:15:54 AM »
I wanted to know what "OB sports mic" meant, so I googled that phrase. About 5-6 entries down was this rather interesting article with cool info:
http://www.live-production.tv/case-studies/production-facilities/microphone-usage-sports-broadcasting.html

What I get from that article is that Schoeps microphones are the only microphones that should be used when capturing sound at a sporting event  ;D
Funny- I got a similar feeling after reading the whole thing. he uses the phrase "Schoeps has easy to use accessories" about 7 times.! My buddy does sound for film and they do actually mostly use Schoeps.
He does mention some surround sound techniques in the article though, going to the thread topic, or at least I wasn't trying to draw the thread too far OT!  >:D
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Re: Double ms for surround sound
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2016, 10:24:56 AM »
I wanted to know what "OB sports mic" meant, so I googled that phrase. About 5-6 entries down was this rather interesting article with cool info:
http://www.live-production.tv/case-studies/production-facilities/microphone-usage-sports-broadcasting.html
^
Within that article is a sidebar about the significance of Diffuse Field Correlation.  It explains in more technical terms what I'm talking about above with regards to coincident arrays not working as well as spaced arrays for surround recordings intended for more than 3 playback channels. 

Here's a quote from the main text of the article next to that sidebar (the sidebar is linked below..)

"Diffuse sound recording
..Optimal pickup of diffuse sound, producing spaciousness and envelopment as well as inclusion of the listener, requires adequate separation among the signals of all the loudspeaker channels. Hence, they must present diffuse sound components that differ from one another. Should this not be so, the virtual space will collapse because the reverberance will seem to emanate only from the specific loudspeaker positions, and the room will sound narrow and unnatural. Each mono component in the main microphone arrangement increases the perceived, unwanted distance between the listener and the recording site. Non-diffuse (in the extreme case, mono) reproduction of diffuse sound has an effect that resembles listening through a small window into the space where the events are occurring. The following block explains the necessary microphone geometry for sufficient decorrelation of diffuse sound."


Here's the direct link to the sidebar, which goes on to explain that a coincident microphone array constrained to the horizontal plane can only obtain sufficiently low Diffuse Field Correlation (DFC) using a maximum of 3 supercardioids with an angle of 120 degrees between each, or 2 figure-8s with an angle of 90 degrees between each microphone-
http://www.live-production.tv/sites/default/files/styles/original_image_with_copyright/public/Sports_Microphones_04.JPG?itok=yPESgMFb

This applies to 2-channel stereo playback as well. I think most recordists and listeners easily recognize it in subjective terms - they know it when they hear it, or the lack of it - but don't have a good grasp on the mechanics of how it works, and there are plenty of other aspects of the craft on which they focus.  Understanding and optimizing for it is a personal focus of mine, which is why I currently have the line from Helmut Wittek quoted below each of my posts.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 10:29:24 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline H₂O

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Re: Double ms for surround sound
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2016, 05:34:56 PM »
Funny- I got a similar feeling after reading the whole thing. he uses the phrase "Schoeps has easy to use accessories" about 7 times.! My buddy does sound for film and they do actually mostly use Schoeps.
He does mention some surround sound techniques in the article though, going to the thread topic, or at least I wasn't trying to draw the thread too far OT!  >:D

Helmut Wittek (the author of this article) is the present Co-CEO of Schoeps (I believe he was head of engineering at the time of this article - DSatz would know for sure)
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