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Author Topic: very simple setup for stealth recording  (Read 26399 times)

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Offline Liquid Drum

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2008, 06:04:41 PM »
The best way is to record in pure lossless WAV files (which the Edirol will do). That way you are getting the best sound out of the mics used. You can always convert to mp3 afterwards for playback.

My suggestion is Church Audio (check the retail forum).

Try either CA-11 or CA-14 and grab an Edirol and you're set.
Mics:
AT933/C

Batt-Boxes, Pre-amps:
CA-9100

Recorders:
Edirol R-09
iRiver H120 (CF Modded)
Sony MZ-RH910 Hi-MD

Video: Canon HV20 E

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2008, 05:57:33 PM »
To expand on what Liquid Drum said, I believe that many recorders that do a great job recording in WAV format do not do such a good job recording in mp3 format. That is, if you record in WAV and convert it to mp3 yourself with a good converter, the mp3 will sound better than if you made your recording directly to mp3. I know this is true with the Zoom H4 (not that I would recommend that recorder for taping a concert).

The CA-11's and CA-14's are great mics and an incredible bargain. However if you order them now you will not receive them within 2 weeks unless you arrange with Chris Church at the time of your order for some sort of priority shipment. And you would have to do so quickly. I think it may take a week or so just from the time Chris gets the package to the post office in Canada to its arrival in the U.S.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 05:20:59 AM by fmaderjr »
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2008, 08:31:41 PM »
To expand on what Liquid Drum said, I believe that many recorders that do a great job recording in WAV format do not do such a good job recording in mp3 format. That is, if you record in WAV and convert it to mp3 yourself with a good converter, the mp3 will sound better than if you made your recording directly to mp3. I know this is true with the Zoom H4 (not that I would recommend that recorder for taping a concert).

The CA-11's and CA-14's are great mics and an incredible bargain. However if you order them now you will not receive them within 2 weeks unless you arrange with Chris Church at the time of your order for some sort of priority shipment. And you would have to do so quickly. I think it may take a week or so just from the time Chris get the package to the post office in Canada to its arrival in the U.S.

Build times on all mics is now 1-2 weeks Max.

Chris
for warranty returns email me at
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Offline fmaderjr

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2008, 05:19:55 AM »
Great news Chris! And even when the wait was longer, it was well worth the wait.
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline mbself

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2008, 09:14:19 AM »
I am new to taping concerts from the audience.  I am not, however, and audio newbie.  I have worked in recording studios and recorded events such as church services and band rehearsals.  Now that I have started taping live concerts i have re-learned a lot of lessons and un-learned some more.

Right now, I have recorded 4 events with a 5th one happening Saturday night.  I can assure you that there is no way to get it right on your 1st trip out.  I have the Zoom H2 and the last show I taped was with the internal mics.  It was the Birmingham STP show.  I was about 20 rows back, just right of center.  The recording was really good.  Not perfect, but really good.  Those with whom i have shared the recording are amazed at how well the little unit did.

Would my little recording hold up to the scrutiny of the tapers here with their complex taping rigs and multiple battery powered gizmos?  No, especially when they read the lineage and it says Audience>Zoom H2>Internal Mics etc....

Of course I do have access to better than just the H2 with internal mics, but the hassle of carrying it and using it is too great for me. 

If you are going to use the Zoom H2 with internal mics from the front row this is how I would set it up. 

1.  Low cut filter: On
2.  Mic sensitivity: Low
3.  AGC/Compression: Off
4.  Use the mics on the back: 120 degree
5.  16bit 44.1khz minimum (24bit 48khz if you ever do use quality external mics)
6.  Begin recording with the record levels at about 50......look at the record level meter and make sure the peaks hit at about -6 but never quite reach 0
7.  Use the tripod mount threaded hole on the bottom to find a way to hang it around your neck instead of using a pocket (reverse L/R position of mic as unit will be hanging upside down.

These are the lessons I have learned in the 5 shows I have taped so far.  Hopefully this Black Crows show Saturday will be my most successful outing yet.

Offline mmadd29

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2008, 10:48:29 AM »
I would record all shows in .wav format.  This is what I do, I do 44.1.  Then I save a copy on a hard drive, then mix and burn to cd.  I then rip the cd to mp3 for playback on my extra iriver in my car. 

I would never record to mp3 format...I probably should do 96K, but I'm too lazy........
Superlux CM-H8K > UA5 > iriver h120 > Wave Labs > EAC

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2008, 03:11:19 PM »
I believe its best to leave the record level at 100. If you need to set it below 100 to keep the meters from hitting 0 DB you will still get a clipped recording. If the meters go over at low sensitivity/100, the only thing you can do to eliminate clipping is to move away from the source (or use an attenuator or a preamp that can attenuate like the ST-9100). I know this is true of the Zoom H4 and according to Ozpeter, it is also true of the H2. He explains why here:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,89082.msg1222401.html#msg1222401

At least if you leave the level at 100 and the meters are going over, you know you need to move away from the source.
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline jacobmyers

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2008, 08:38:34 PM »
I have one motto for taping, either do it properly or not at all.
That's precisely why I don't mess around with "stealth" recording. >:D

I've recorded a few shows in "stealth", so I can understand and respect the desire to do it. I mean; it's a little "f--k you to The Man" and a nice adrenaline rush. But the majority of the "stealth" recordings I've heard (on LMA, as well as my own) are passable at best. And I've heard stuff there that, frankly, isn't fit to waste space on a hard disk. There are some with microphone adjustments in mid-recording (that skew the previously excellent image) or they 'bump' the microphone (or cable) several times during the set. Those are recordings with five-star ratings that rave about their "high quality". ::)

If you're going to "stealth" record an event, you're not going to the show to "have fun" in the "traditional" whoop and holler and drink gallons of beer sense. Making and escaping with a good recording is the "fun". You're there to surreptitiously record audio (which will then, presumably, be quasi-legally distributed). There is the risk of discovery, being apprehended, and being forced to "destroy" the recording (or surrender equipment). It's not a task for the faint of heart or the undisciplined.

As it turns out; it's not for the recovering-from-back-injury, either. I have enough problems lately just sitting through a show, let alone sitting perfectly still. So I tape openly; with the permission of either the band, the venue, or both. I get better-sounding recordings and I don't have to worry about anything except keeping the drunks off my stand. Anyway; best of luck to you.

Offline newplanet7

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2008, 08:46:45 PM »

That's precisely why I don't mess around with "stealth" recording. >:D

 But the majority of the "stealth" recordings I've heard (on LMA, as well as my own) are passable at best. And I've heard stuff there that, frankly, isn't fit to waste space on a hard disk. There are some with microphone adjustments in mid-recording (that skew the previously excellent image) or they 'bump' the microphone (or cable) several times during the set. Those are recordings with five-star ratings that rave about their "high quality". ::)

I agree totally.
I have heard only a handful of stealth tapes that I would listen to more than once.
 
MILAB VM-44 Classic~> Silver T's~> Busman PMD660
News From Phish: Will tour as opening act for Widespread Panic for Summer
hahaha never happen, PHiSH is waaaaayyyy better the WSP

They both ain't got nothing on MMW... Money spent wisely if you ask me...


FYI, it is a kick ass recording of a bunch of pretend-a-hippies talking.

Offline illconditioned

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2008, 09:10:42 PM »

That's precisely why I don't mess around with "stealth" recording. >:D

 But the majority of the "stealth" recordings I've heard (on LMA, as well as my own) are passable at best. And I've heard stuff there that, frankly, isn't fit to waste space on a hard disk. There are some with microphone adjustments in mid-recording (that skew the previously excellent image) or they 'bump' the microphone (or cable) several times during the set. Those are recordings with five-star ratings that rave about their "high quality". ::)

I agree totally.
I have heard only a handful of stealth tapes that I would listen to more than once.
 
I record quite a lot of shows "stealth", particularly outdoor and festival shows.  I often don't have time to get permissions and to set up in advance.  I just record (from my hat) and sort it out later.  However, I am careful what I distribute.  Most of these recordings are for myself only.  If I get something good I will try to get back to the artist(s).

The other day I recorded Justin Rutledge (Canadian alt-country guy) and I gave him a DVD of four or five previous "hat" shows...

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline newplanet7

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2008, 01:44:56 PM »
Actually most of the samples that you put on your site are splendid Richard. 8)

I was more referring to stuff I've downloaded, mainly jazz and bluegrass and a few rock.
I made a very general statement and should have specified.
MILAB VM-44 Classic~> Silver T's~> Busman PMD660
News From Phish: Will tour as opening act for Widespread Panic for Summer
hahaha never happen, PHiSH is waaaaayyyy better the WSP

They both ain't got nothing on MMW... Money spent wisely if you ask me...


FYI, it is a kick ass recording of a bunch of pretend-a-hippies talking.

Offline Liquid Drum

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2008, 02:01:40 PM »
I have one motto for taping, either do it properly or not at all.
That's precisely why I don't mess around with "stealth" recording. >:D

I've recorded a few shows in "stealth", so I can understand and respect the desire to do it. I mean; it's a little "f--k you to The Man" and a nice adrenaline rush. But the majority of the "stealth" recordings I've heard (on LMA, as well as my own) are passable at best. And I've heard stuff there that, frankly, isn't fit to waste space on a hard disk. There are some with microphone adjustments in mid-recording (that skew the previously excellent image) or they 'bump' the microphone (or cable) several times during the set. Those are recordings with five-star ratings that rave about their "high quality". ::)

If you're going to "stealth" record an event, you're not going to the show to "have fun" in the "traditional" whoop and holler and drink gallons of beer sense. Making and escaping with a good recording is the "fun". You're there to surreptitiously record audio (which will then, presumably, be quasi-legally distributed). There is the risk of discovery, being apprehended, and being forced to "destroy" the recording (or surrender equipment). It's not a task for the faint of heart or the undisciplined.

As it turns out; it's not for the recovering-from-back-injury, either. I have enough problems lately just sitting through a show, let alone sitting perfectly still. So I tape openly; with the permission of either the band, the venue, or both. I get better-sounding recordings and I don't have to worry about anything except keeping the drunks off my stand. Anyway; best of luck to you.

Not to be a dick but that is wrong (imo). It is more than possible to get an excellent 'stealth' recording but you have to work for it. I.E. decent gear, good location, mics not covered, etc...

I have heard alot of decent stealth recordings. It is the same with 'open' recordings. If you don't put the work in, you don't get a good tape. I have heard some supposedly 'open' recordings that sound very poor. Also have heard some excellent open tapes.

It works the same for open AND stealth. Ok, stealth is a little more tricky but you can get just as good results. It's all about LOCATION (and the PA sound/venue).
Mics:
AT933/C

Batt-Boxes, Pre-amps:
CA-9100

Recorders:
Edirol R-09
iRiver H120 (CF Modded)
Sony MZ-RH910 Hi-MD

Video: Canon HV20 E

Offline rhinowing

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2008, 02:25:12 PM »
The whole point of taping, imo, is the music, not how perfect you can make your tape sound or how much gear you have. For example, look at when Dylan played with the White Stripes a few years ago. A stealth tape was the only thing that was made of that show, but I don't see anyone complaining.

edit-or, all the Hendrix/Zeppelin/JGB shows where taping wasn't allowed. I feel like this debate has been done to death a million times already, though.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 02:27:44 PM by rhinowing »
Please contact me if you've ever taped the Smashing Pumpkins or a related group!

Offline Liquid Drum

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2008, 02:35:49 PM »
The whole point of taping, imo, is the music, not how perfect you can make your tape sound or how much gear you have. For example, look at when Dylan played with the White Stripes a few years ago. A stealth tape was the only thing that was made of that show, but I don't see anyone complaining.

edit-or, all the Hendrix/Zeppelin/JGB shows where taping wasn't allowed. I feel like this debate has been done to death a million times already, though.

I agree 100%

It just annoys me a little when people assume things and/or have elitist attitudes.

BTW, I mainly stealth but have open taped before.
Mics:
AT933/C

Batt-Boxes, Pre-amps:
CA-9100

Recorders:
Edirol R-09
iRiver H120 (CF Modded)
Sony MZ-RH910 Hi-MD

Video: Canon HV20 E

Offline Dede2002

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2008, 03:55:05 PM »
I have one motto for taping, either do it properly or not at all.
That's precisely why I don't mess around with "stealth" recording. >:D

I've recorded a few shows in "stealth", so I can understand and respect the desire to do it. I mean; it's a little "f--k you to The Man" and a nice adrenaline rush. But the majority of the "stealth" recordings I've heard (on LMA, as well as my own) are passable at best. And I've heard stuff there that, frankly, isn't fit to waste space on a hard disk. There are some with microphone adjustments in mid-recording (that skew the previously excellent image) or they 'bump' the microphone (or cable) several times during the set. Those are recordings with five-star ratings that rave about their "high quality". ::)

If you're going to "stealth" record an event, you're not going to the show to "have fun" in the "traditional" whoop and holler and drink gallons of beer sense. Making and escaping with a good recording is the "fun". You're there to surreptitiously record audio (which will then, presumably, be quasi-legally distributed). There is the risk of discovery, being apprehended, and being forced to "destroy" the recording (or surrender equipment). It's not a task for the faint of heart or the undisciplined.

As it turns out; it's not for the recovering-from-back-injury, either. I have enough problems lately just sitting through a show, let alone sitting perfectly still. So I tape openly; with the permission of either the band, the venue, or both. I get better-sounding recordings and I don't have to worry about anything except keeping the drunks off my stand. Anyway; best of luck to you.

Not to be a dick but that is wrong (imo). It is more than possible to get an excellent 'stealth' recording but you have to work for it. I.E. decent gear, good location, mics not covered, etc...

I have heard alot of decent stealth recordings. It is the same with 'open' recordings. If you don't put the work in, you don't get a good tape. I have heard some supposedly 'open' recordings that sound very poor. Also have heard some excellent open tapes.

It works the same for open AND stealth. Ok, stealth is a little more tricky but you can get just as good results. It's all about LOCATION (and the PA sound/venue).

That's exactly what I've been saying. It may sound obvious, but the "location, location, location" rule is not good enough. Without a nice sounding PA/venue, forget about it.
Comments about the stealth issue. As far as I know, open taping  is not an option outside the US. In my country ( and in most european countries), if you ask for permission, man, in you are in a world of pain. To most venues ( not the bands though), it would be the same as if you asking them to allow you to break in during the night, drink all the beer, eat the food and leave. They wouldn't be very happy with this at all, you can imagine.
If open taping is not an option and you love taping, just do it. Be carefull, be happy. ;)

« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 03:59:13 PM by Dede2002 »
Mics..........................SP-CMC-8, HLSC-1 and HLSO-MICRO
BB and Preamps........MM Micro bb / MM Custom Elite bb / Church 9100
                              
Recorders...................Marantz PMD 620 MKII, Edirol R-09 / Edirol R-09HR

 

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