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Author Topic: mk8 noise v. other mk caps and m/s config  (Read 6259 times)

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Offline 2manyrocks

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mk8 noise v. other mk caps and m/s config
« on: June 03, 2015, 06:32:11 PM »
Finally got to try out a mk8 capsule this afternoon, but it's obviously more noisy than my mk5 capsule.  Is this normal?  By comparison, the mk5 is just about dead quiet. 
 
Also, using two windtech sp20 mounts, there is about 14mm of separation between the two capsules.  Are the capsules close enough for m/s recording?  Other than the Schoeps m/s mount and the rycote, is there a better way of mounting for m/s? 


Offline thunderbolt

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Re: mk8 noise v. other mk caps and m/s config
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2015, 08:06:03 PM »
The Mk. 5 is -14 dB-A, the Mk. 8 is -18.  Although you'll always find someone who considers the 8 "noisy," I think that the pre you're using has more of an effect than anything.

I've used a VP-88 (a rather "notoriously" "noisy") M/S mic into high-quality pres, and it doesn't sound that bad at all.  And the Mk. 8 is a helluva lot better than an '88.

Schoeps makes mounts that will get the capsules closer, and when you're doing M/S, it will make a difference.  But Schoeps charges a lot for their mounts.  I've always thought that if you bought parts a la cart from Redding Audio, you could cobble together a much less expensive mount, but I defer to others on less expensive ways to do it.

« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 08:07:50 PM by boltman »

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Re: mk8 noise v. other mk caps and m/s config
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2015, 08:31:51 PM »
Rycote back to back clips is a great way to do mid side mount with full bodies. You can order them from Posthorn and others. Don't remember how much they were, got them when they were first released in the U.S. Poke around the forum there is a thread or two about them.
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: mk8 noise v. other mk caps and m/s config
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2015, 08:54:30 PM »
B & H has the Rycote back to back clips for something like $24. Since they don't appear to wrap around the mic bodies, how secure are they?

And can they be used with the Shure A53 or windtech shock mount or must they only be used with the Rycote Invision?

For these mics, which Rycote version is needed?  I understand they come in different strengths for lack of a better description.

Offline voltronic

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Re: mk8 noise v. other mk caps and m/s config
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2015, 10:10:36 PM »
B & H has the Rycote back to back clips for something like $24. Since they don't appear to wrap around the mic bodies, how secure are they?

And can they be used with the Shure A53 or windtech shock mount or must they only be used with the Rycote Invision?

For these mics, which Rycote version is needed?  I understand they come in different strengths for lack of a better description.
I don't think they'd work with the A53 - they only hold the mics a few mm apart and the A53 is a rather thick mount.  The Windtech SP20s, maybe...
http://www.rycote.com/products/back-to-back-clips/
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/770035-REG/Rycote_48488_Back_to_Back_Clips_for_Microphones.html

They do in fact wrap around the mic bodies, and will grab them much more securely than you could imagine.  Trust me, they won't let go unless you bend them open and pry the mics out (don't worry, they're very durable), or slide the mics through from the end.  They're also rubbery so there's no chance of the bodies sliding around by accident.

The actual Rycote "lyres" used in their shocks come in three different shore ratings to make them more or less compliant depending on how much mass they are isolating.  Light mics in relatively stiff mounts won't isolate well, and heavier mics in too pliable mounts will flop all over the place.  Since these are just attachment clips and are not a shock mount, that factor doesn't apply in this situation and these only come one way.

If you're curious about the different "levels" the lyres are available in: http://www.rycote.com/products/lyre/modular-lyre-upgrades/

If you were purchasing a Rycote shock for this setup, I would get one INV-7 (with the stock lyres) which would hold one mic body, and then the set of back-to-back clips to hold the other one directly above it, setting you up in M/S.
http://www.rycote.com/products/shock-mounts-suspension/invision-broadcast-film/

The stock lyres may not always be the right choice though, especially for lightweight mics.  For instance, the standard lyres on the INV-6 are too stiff to use with CM3s.  I special ordered two pairs of the 62 shore (softest) lyres and used them for my DIY mount shown here, which does a fantastic job with those mics:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=171552.msg2132415#msg2132415
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 10:15:43 PM by voltronic »
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: mk8 noise v. other mk caps and m/s config
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2015, 10:46:09 AM »
My issue with these Windtechs is they have a death grip on the nextel.

I guess this is an older mk8 capsule since it has a hand written SN.  Does that have anything to do with the noise level?

Offline acidjack

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Re: mk8 noise v. other mk caps and m/s config
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2015, 04:20:53 PM »
I'm curious about this "noise" as well (since it's my old capsule).  I've used it a number of times, including fairly quiet outdoor and indoor situations, and never had any issue with the recordings made, such as:

http://www.nyctaper.com/2013/02/brian-settles-central-union-january-16-2013-barbes-flacmp3streaming/

http://www.nyctaper.com/2013/10/elizabeth-and-the-catapult-september-22-2013-backyard-brunch-sessions-flacmp3streaming/

http://www.nyctaper.com/2013/11/the-lawsuits/

Well, I shouldn't say "no issue" -- I thought the recordings were phenomenal.

It's obviously picking up nearly twice as much material, directionally speaking, as a MK5 in cardiod setting, since it's basically two hypers pointing in opposite directions. I don't know if that's what you mean by "noisy" or not. Could also be a function of the difference in vertical and side-address caps. The sensitivity of the microphone is also different, or at least, it's a little hard to compare to a front-facing MK5, owing to the different pickup pattern.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: mk8 noise v. other mk caps and m/s config
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2015, 05:28:51 PM »
Quote
It's obviously picking up nearly twice as much material, directionally speaking, as a MK5 in cardiod setting, since it's basically two hypers pointing in opposite directions.

I don't mean to be a nit-picking jerk, but I'll play the tech geek and make a factual correction on the "obvious, directionally speaking" thing-
A bi-directional microphone (fig-8) is going to pick up less sound than a cardioid, not more, in terms of sound arriving from all directions around the microphone averaged together.  Yes there is maximal pickup from two opposing sides, but overall, there is considerably less pickup across the entire 360 degree sphere.

That may be counter intuitive, but might make more sense by recalling that all intermediate pickup patterns (subcard, card, super, hyper) can be considered a combination of omni and bi-directional components, mixed in different ratios.  An omni is least directional overall, and picks up the most sound possible averaged across all possible directions.  A bi-directional figure-8 is the opposite of that, it picks up the least amount of sound 'over all directions averaged together' than any other pattern, and in that sense it is the most directional 1st order pattern.  All other patterns lie somewhere between those extremes, are created by combining those two most basic patterns, and have varying degrees of sensitivity to sound from all directions averaged together in direct correspondence to that mix ratio.

What confuses things a bit is that although a bi-directional microphone really is the most directional pattern in the sense described above, that directionallity is manifest over two opposing directions.  Usually when we talk about directional microphones we're thinking in terms of sound arriving directly on-axis verses all other directions (which is to say averaged across all directions, or all directions combined).  In that sense a hypercardioid is 'most directional' in that it has the highest ratio of sensitivity to sound arriving on-axis (from directly in front only) in comparison to all directions on average.  And a supercarioid has the most even 'off-axis' sensitivity overall, since it's smaller rear lobe provides an off-axis sensitivity which is less varied across all  directions on average.

Apologies for the OT techy stuff.  I'll step out of the conversation now.
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: mk8 noise v. other mk caps and m/s config
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2015, 06:04:57 PM »
Now I'm really confused because I was wondering if the MK8 inherently has more self noise than a mk5 because it is a side address?  I would guess it has more surface area exposed to the air for one thing. 

I don't have any other experience with other sdc figure 8s to compare to.  That's why I'm asking and probably doing a poor job of asking the right questions at that. 

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: mk8 noise v. other mk caps and m/s config
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2015, 06:36:24 PM »
The noise contribution from the microphones themselves is reflected in the figures boltman posted-
Quote
The Mk. 5 is -14 dB-A, the Mk. 8 is -18

^^those are the corresponding 'self-noise' specifications for each capsule.  Measured using a dB-A weighting scale, the MK5 is ~4dB quieter than the MK8.  Both those figures are perfectly respectable for SDCs   In combination with that, if the MK8 is less sensitive (I think it is) it will require more gain to produce the same signal level as the MK5, and that difference in gain will amplify the noise by the same amount.  So both those things combine to make the MK8 noisier.  Still, I wouldn't expect it to be an issue for most recording uses around here.

Side address geometry doesn't effect a microphone's self noise.  And both these capsules have both sides of their diaphragms exposed to air.  The difference is that there is a labyrinth path (or sometimes resistive elements) in the sound path to the back side of the diaphragm on a cardioid.

Diaphragm size does effect self-noise.  An SDC has less diaphragm area than a LDC and all else being equal will have a correspondingly higher self-noise figure.

Hope that helps.

..Looks like Jon posted as I was responding (confirming my suspicion that the MK8 is less sensitive) making some of this post redundant.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 06:38:22 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: mk8 noise v. other mk caps and m/s config
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2015, 08:43:47 PM »
  This is really helpful.  Thank you all.  I couldn't figure it out.   

Offline DSatz

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Re: mk8 noise v. other mk caps and m/s config
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2015, 01:21:14 PM »
Hi. There shouldn't be minus signs in front of those noise specs, plus A-weighted specs are generally RMS (i.e. smoothed/averaged over time, which effectively erases impulse noise) so marketing folks love them.

CCIR-weighted specs are far more revealing and realistic, especially since they're generally evaluated on a quasi-peak basis, which does pay proper respect to shot noise--which is perhaps why many manufacturers give only A-weighted specifications, which typically look maybe 8 - 12 dB better on a purely numeric basis.

Anyway the MK 8's equivalent noise should be essentially the same as that of the MK 5 (if you're using the MK 5 as an omni), or only 2 dB greater (if you're using the MK 5 as a cardioid as I suspect you are). And the point is, you should not be able to hear that low a noise level, in any halfway normal live recording situation. So I suspect that something is rather seriously wrong with this picture--unless what you've meant all along is noise due to vibration or air currents, rather than the usual "self-noise" of a (mechanically undisturbed) condenser mike capsule.

Just for reference, this week I've been recording opera performances in an old stone church which (when everyone else is out of the room) is impressively quiet except for some rumble. I'm recording M/S with an MK 4 "M" capsule and an MK 8 "S" capsule, and no matter how far I turn up the gain on my preamp and headphone amp, I don't hear any noise from either capsule, let alone more noise from the MK 8 than from the MK 4.

--best regards
« Last Edit: June 07, 2015, 09:13:54 AM by DSatz »
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: mk8 noise v. other mk caps and m/s config
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2015, 07:48:17 PM »
The noise I hear is the noise of the mic in quiet surroundings when I turn up the gain to about 3/4 on high gain setting.  The HVAC is off, etc.  The mk8 self noise is distinguishably louder than the mk5. 

I have another recorder on the way to test with. 

Offline voltronic

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Re: mk8 noise v. other mk caps and m/s config
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2015, 08:20:05 PM »
At the risk of being Captain Obvious, did you try:

1. Swapping input channels of the two mics on the recorder?
2. Swapping cables?
3. Swapping the capsules onto different bodies?

Only if all of the above have been done and you're still getting significantly higher noise on the MK 8 would I start to suggest there's an issue with the capsule itself.
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: mk8 noise v. other mk caps and m/s config
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2015, 10:30:20 PM »
thanks.  Will try it again tomorrow when there's some quiet around here to work in to try to figure this out.   I expect the mk8 to be fine when I finally figure out what's up.   

 

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