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Author Topic: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10  (Read 12437 times)

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Offline zoo440

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quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« on: July 25, 2016, 10:22:51 AM »
i wrote  a problem about line input with sony m10 before, volume is lower than normal  when i use sp-spsb-11 battery box / sp-cmc 8 mics with line in unity on sony m10
i'd like to know about what are different things between mic in and line in? sound quality? what's the best setting for battery box and sp-cmc 8 mics combination when i record live gigs? should i go mic in with them?  or line in with them? anyone tell me the answering would be welcom

Offline Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2016, 10:28:59 AM »
If you're using a battery box you will use LINE IN.

Not sure what you mean by "unity" ...I think that is where you would set the levels on the M10 if you were using a mic pre-amp. Since your not I don't think you need to worry about that.

When I run my M10 with a battery box (and I use Countryman B3's with it), I set my M10 at roughly 5 to get good levels (depends on the show obviously).

For you it doesn't matter. If your levels are low, turn up the gain on the M10. If you're at 10 on the gain and can't get good levels, then you have a problem.
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Offline goodcooker

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2016, 10:33:25 AM »

Use line in and turn up the gain until you get good levels.

If that's not sufficient use mic in at lower gain.

No one can really solve this problem for you, every situation is different, you just have to keep getting out there and doing it until you get it right.

I routinely add up to 20 dB to my recordings in post so I think you may be creating a problem when you actually don't have one. If your recordings sound good when you add gain in your software afterwards quit worrying about it.
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Offline zoo440

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2016, 11:13:09 AM »
how do i turn up the gain on sony m10? you mean that adjusting rec level? i recorded at level 8, but volume is low, i'm gonna increase it to be more louder in post,
i want to have the recodings to be properly with setting,

Offline Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2016, 03:04:43 PM »
The knob on the side is what increases your gain. You have it set to 8. I think it goes to 10. If 8 isn't enough...go higher.

I've found that if you're around -12db you can increase your levels in post without audible issues. I've actually been below that in the past and have been completely happy with the results after post processing.

Why not try BOTH at a show. Roll for a bit via LINE IN and then switch to MIC IN...maybe for the opener when you really don't want to keep the recording...or go to a local free show where you can learn your rig.

Personally I think that learning how your individual rig works is part of the fun.
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Offline nulldogmas

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2016, 10:42:13 PM »
The difference between Mic In and Line In is that Mic In has plug-in power (which you aren't using if you use a battery box) and also more built-in gain. That's it.

If you're not getting enough gain from Line In, by all means switch to Mic In. So long as you're using the same battery box and mics, you should get the same quality, just more gain.

Offline Pittylabelle

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2016, 01:16:21 PM »
The difference between Mic In and Line In is that Mic In has plug-in power (which you aren't using if you use a battery box) and also more built-in gain. That's it.

If you're not getting enough gain from Line In, by all means switch to Mic In. So long as you're using the same battery box and mics, you should get the same quality, just more gain.

Hi all,

Question:
Is it possible that a connection via the Mic-In generally adds some "deep bass frequencies" to the recordings?
Scenario 1: Microphone -> Battery Box -> Mic-In -> Old Recorder (Plug-In power switched off)
These frequencies are sometimes so strong that the speakers cause to vibrate.
BTW, my old recorder has no "real" Line-In, just a combination of a Mic-Line-In.

In contrast to all my previous recordings via the Mic-In, I was amazed how "clean/basic" my last live music
recordings, connected via the Line-In jack, sounds.
Scenario 2: Microphone -> Battery Box -> Line-In -> New Recorder

Although the overall recording level is just near -12 dB, the sound quality of these new recordings are excellent.
BTW,  I have to push the level control to maximum, because obviously the adaptor don't provide more gain to
the Line-In of the recorder.

My new equipment so far:
Recorder: Olympus LS-12
Battery Box: Soundman A3 Adaptor (6 Volts)
Microphone: Soundman OKM Rock "Special Variant" (binaural)

Old Recorder: Tascam DR-05 V2

Please, excuse me for my bad English.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 06:09:52 PM by Pittylabelle »
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Offline Mike Stranks

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2016, 05:11:19 AM »
Is it possible that a connection via the Mic-In generally adds some "deep bass frequencies" to the recordings?


No

The only reason this will happen is if you have some settings in the recorder that are altering the sound as it's recorded. Check if you've got compressors or limiters set 'on' or any other 'processing' settings active.

It may be that you're hearing things that haven't been recorded properly/at all before. Quite often with live recordings you'll need to engage a hi-pass filter - typically at c.60 Hz or so. For all intents and purposes, what's going on down there is of no real interest and is only muddying your recordings to an extent.

and finally... is your listening environment good? If you have poor speakers in an acoustically untreated room then you may not be hearing a true representation.
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Offline Pittylabelle

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2016, 06:45:38 AM »
No

The only reason this will happen is if you have some settings in the recorder that are altering the sound as it's recorded. Check if you've got compressors or limiters set 'on' or any other 'processing' settings active.

It may be that you're hearing things that haven't been recorded properly/at all before. Quite often with live recordings you'll need to engage a hi-pass filter - typically at c.60 Hz or so. For all intents and purposes, what's going on down there is of no real interest and is only muddying your recordings to an extent.

and finally... is your listening environment good? If you have poor speakers in an acoustically untreated room then you may not be hearing a true representation.

Thank you very much for your answer. :D

No, I never used/use compressors or limiters in my recordings - those things were/are definitely switched off.

I've tested my two recording scenarios even at home, in front of my stereo equipment: Senario 1 = deep frequencies, Scenario 2 = clean sound. Of course no different recorder settings were made. So, Im still worried about those recording methods.

Very often, I hear those deep muddying sounds in recordings from other tapers too.

Did you mean to engage a hi-pass filter during recording or afterwards?

Hmm, if I use a hi-pass filter in iZotope afterwards, these deep sounds are widely eliminated, but I have reservations to apply those to the recordings. BTW, in iZotope there's also another filter called "Remove all low energy" which also apply at about 60 Hz. Tested this too, but the effects are not that much.

Of course I've compared the differnet recordings in the same listening environment and, since I'm using binaural mics, via headphones too.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 07:34:30 AM by Pittylabelle »
Current Gear:
Microphone: Soundman OKM Rock "Special Variant" (binaural)
Recorder: Olympus LS-12

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2016, 09:11:02 AM »
You're not just comparing Line In to Mic In, you're comparing inputs on two different recorders? I'm not surprised you're getting different results, then. What's the old recorder?

Offline Pittylabelle

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2016, 05:37:31 PM »
You're not just comparing Line In to Mic In, you're comparing inputs on two different recorders? I'm not surprised you're getting different results, then. What's the old recorder?

As said before, the old recorder is a Tascam DR-05 V2.

Sorry I forgot to say, I also have compared the two inputs on my new recorder with the same result.
Current Gear:
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Offline beatkilla

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2016, 07:06:17 PM »
Pittilabelle,it seems as though your tascam has the low cut filter turned on in the menus most likely.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 07:07:52 PM by beatkilla »

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2016, 12:16:06 AM »

Sorry I forgot to say, I also have compared the two inputs on my new recorder with the same result.

That's extremely weird. Could you post some samples?

Offline Pittylabelle

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2016, 02:27:44 PM »
That's extremely weird. Could you post some samples?

No problem, here are two samples:

Made in front of my home stereo equipment, with same settings and distance to the speaker.
No Low-cut filter, no compressors, no limiters or any other 'processing' settings active.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6uqci5m7hradlUwdFVwYThIbzA?usp=sharing

01 OKM-Rock to A3 to Line-In (Olympus LS-12).wav --> this file sounds "flat"
02 OKM-Rock to A3 to Mic-In (Olympus LS-12).wav --> this file sounds "bassy"

Track sample: "Vulcan Worlds - Chick Corea"

« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 02:39:19 PM by Pittylabelle »
Current Gear:
Microphone: Soundman OKM Rock "Special Variant" (binaural)
Recorder: Olympus LS-12

Offline Mike Stranks

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2016, 03:05:34 PM »
More questions I'm afraid...  :)

Have you got all the settings on the A3 set to 'flat/off'?
Are you sure that you have no 'high pass/low roll-off' filters set on the recorder?
Have you checked that 'plug-in-power' is OFF on the recorder? (My suspicion is that this could well be the problem...) 
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Offline Pittylabelle

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2016, 03:40:00 PM »
More questions I'm afraid...  :)

Have you got all the settings on the A3 set to 'flat/off'?
Are you sure that you have no 'high pass/low roll-off' filters set on the recorder?
Have you checked that 'plug-in-power' is OFF on the recorder? (My suspicion is that this could well be the problem...)

Thank you very much for your engagement - much appreciated! ;-)

- All settings on th A3 are off: No -20 dB cut, No attenuation
- As said before, No "high pass/low roll-off' filters were set
- Plug-in-power is off

Still amazed how "good, clean, natural" my recordings sound if I just record via Line-In and not Mic-In.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 04:01:58 PM by Pittylabelle »
Current Gear:
Microphone: Soundman OKM Rock "Special Variant" (binaural)
Recorder: Olympus LS-12

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2016, 04:00:02 PM »
Odd.  Those are quite different. 

Though some discount the idea that using a recorder's internal pre-amp (going mic-in) has a different effect relative to line-in, and the manufacturers don't say what parts of the circuitry chain are bypassed going line-in (if any), there seems a clear difference in this instance. 

I'm sure it depends on the manufacturer and model of recorder. 

In this case I'd say the LS-12 has a very cheap internal pre-amp that dramatically colors the sound.  I'd also say I'd do whatever you need to in order to run line-in.  Honestly I thought the line-in seemed slightly thin, but the mic-in very muddy. 

Take for instance a Sony M-10 and I don't think you'd hear any difference running the same thing into either line-in or mic-in (if the output level of each result is similar). 
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Offline rippleish20

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2016, 04:48:26 PM »
I also use a SP battery box -> M10.  Even after reading all these comments, Im still unclear about this - If I have auto gain off, microphone power off and use low sensitivity, are the line in and microphone in equivalent in terms of default gain? Or does the microphone input still add gain?
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Offline Pittylabelle

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2016, 06:01:26 PM »
Odd.  Those are quite different. 

Though some discount the idea that using a recorder's internal pre-amp (going mic-in) has a different effect relative to line-in, and the manufacturers don't say what parts of the circuitry chain are bypassed going line-in (if any), there seems a clear difference in this instance. 

I'm sure it depends on the manufacturer and model of recorder. 

In this case I'd say the LS-12 has a very cheap internal pre-amp that dramatically colors the sound.  I'd also say I'd do whatever you need to in order to run line-in.  Honestly I thought the line-in seemed slightly thin, but the mic-in very muddy. 

Take for instance a Sony M-10 and I don't think you'd hear any difference running the same thing into either line-in or mic-in (if the output level of each result is similar).

Thank you for listening to my samples and for your findings. ;-)

I've made another upload to compare: This time, four inhouse field recording samples of the same band & same track, within a few recent dates in Europe (DE, NL & BE), received from my buddies. Yes, I'm aware of the different circumstances - different location, different live mixer, different PA different recording equipment and so on ... but ...

... I think this is still interesting, because I had made very, very similar experiences with this "muddy recording quality" on my old Tascam DR-05 recorder in the old days - via Mic-In.

No EQ was applied to the four recordings!

01 Banned From Utopia - 2016 10 14 Eeklo BE - 05 Cosmic Debris --> Zoom H2 (no external mic)
02 Banned From Utopia - 2016 10 20 Weert NL - 05 Cosmic Debris --> Zoom H2 (no external mic)
03 Banned From Utopia - 2016 10 24 Muenster DE - 05 Cosmic Debris --> OKM Rock --> A3 --> Line-In Olympus LS-12 (Pittylabelle's recording)
04 Banned From Utopia - 2016 10 26 Hamburg DE - 05 Cosmic Debris --> Zoom H2 (no external mic)

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6uqci5m7hraX3N2THlWYXg2VnM?usp=sharing

Regardless, of weather your statement about my LS-12 Line-In seemed to be "slightly thin", I think my setup is still the best of the four - at last soundwise. :headphones:

What do you think?

Track sample: "Cosmic Debris - Banned From Utopia (Frank Zappa)"



« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 06:24:12 PM by Pittylabelle »
Current Gear:
Microphone: Soundman OKM Rock "Special Variant" (binaural)
Recorder: Olympus LS-12

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2016, 07:18:52 PM »
I also use a SP battery box -> M10.  Even after reading all these comments, Im still unclear about this - If I have auto gain off, microphone power off and use low sensitivity, are the line in and microphone in equivalent in terms of default gain? Or does the microphone input still add gain?

Since I use a battery box, I don't need power - mic in power is always off. Mic in on the M10 definitely adds gain compared to line in - about 5 notches on the dial in my experience. One of the more techy folks can probably give you the precise dB's.
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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2016, 08:04:20 PM »
Rather than subjectively assessing the difference, look at the spectrum analysis. This is from approximately the same portion of the sample files - about a 5 second segment.

But, as someone noted, mic-in is going to pass the signal through the recorders preamps and color the sound some. If the preamps are crappy, well, you will not get as pleasing a sound.

I never really noticed a large difference with my M10 - not like you've exhibited with your Olympus.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 08:07:18 PM by vanark »
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Offline nulldogmas

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2016, 10:14:11 PM »

01 OKM-Rock to A3 to Line-In (Olympus LS-12).wav --> this file sounds "flat"
02 OKM-Rock to A3 to Mic-In (Olympus LS-12).wav --> this file sounds "bassy"

Aha, okay — my "extremely weird" comment was because I'd assumed you were using an M10 (after a cursory look at the title of this thread). Yes, some recorders are going to have a significant difference between the Line In and Mic In sound coloration. On the M10, though, they're pretty similar if you use the same battery box with each, except that the Mic In will have significantly more gain.

The old advice to go Line In whenever possible is still the best. But on the M10, at least, if I can't get enough gain that way, going Mic In is a reasonable alternative.

Does that help?

Offline Pittylabelle

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2016, 06:04:19 AM »

01 OKM-Rock to A3 to Line-In (Olympus LS-12).wav --> this file sounds "flat"
02 OKM-Rock to A3 to Mic-In (Olympus LS-12).wav --> this file sounds "bassy"

Aha, okay — my "extremely weird" comment was because I'd assumed you were using an M10 (after a cursory look at the title of this thread). Yes, some recorders are going to have a significant difference between the Line In and Mic In sound coloration. On the M10, though, they're pretty similar if you use the same battery box with each, except that the Mic In will have significantly more gain.

The old advice to go Line In whenever possible is still the best. But on the M10, at least, if I can't get enough gain that way, going Mic In is a reasonable alternative.

Does that help?


Yes of course, thanks. ;-)

Now I ask myself, should I buy a Sony M10 instead of the Olympus LS-12?

Or, is the Line-In of my LS-12 "worth it"  to make further live recordings?

Therefore, has anybody listened to my second live samples comparison?
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6uqci5m7hraX3N2THlWYXg2VnM?usp=sharing

To the mods:
Would it make sense to split this thread? A new one, from my first post, could be named:
"Unwanted sound coloration - Line-In versus Mic-In"
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 07:49:19 AM by Pittylabelle »
Current Gear:
Microphone: Soundman OKM Rock "Special Variant" (binaural)
Recorder: Olympus LS-12

Offline rippleish20

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2016, 10:25:08 AM »
I also use a SP battery box -> M10.  Even after reading all these comments, Im still unclear about this - If I have auto gain off, microphone power off and use low sensitivity, are the line in and microphone in equivalent in terms of default gain? Or does the microphone input still add gain?

Since I use a battery box, I don't need power - mic in power is always off. Mic in on the M10 definitely adds gain compared to line in - about 5 notches on the dial in my experience. One of the more techy folks can probably give you the precise dB's.

Thank you for the response. Some of the comments struck me as counter intuitive. And a little googling led me to an article which suggested low sensitivity basically turned off the gain, which also confused me.

It seems to me that using the microphone port, if one is only using a battery box, is still usually the best strategy as you get he preamp gain (unless the sound is really loud)
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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2016, 11:19:00 AM »

Thank you for listening to my samples and for your findings. ;-)

I've made another upload to compare: This time, four inhouse field recording samples of the same band & same track, within a few recent dates in Europe (DE, NL & BE), received from my buddies. Yes, I'm aware of the different circumstances - different location, different live mixer, different PA different recording equipment and so on ... but ...

... I think this is still interesting, because I had made very, very similar experiences with this "muddy recording quality" on my old Tascam DR-05 recorder in the old days - via Mic-In.

No EQ was applied to the four recordings!

01 Banned From Utopia - 2016 10 14 Eeklo BE - 05 Cosmic Debris --> Zoom H2 (no external mic)
02 Banned From Utopia - 2016 10 20 Weert NL - 05 Cosmic Debris --> Zoom H2 (no external mic)
03 Banned From Utopia - 2016 10 24 Muenster DE - 05 Cosmic Debris --> OKM Rock --> A3 --> Line-In Olympus LS-12 (Pittylabelle's recording)
04 Banned From Utopia - 2016 10 26 Hamburg DE - 05 Cosmic Debris --> Zoom H2 (no external mic)

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6uqci5m7hraX3N2THlWYXg2VnM?usp=sharing

Regardless, of weather your statement about my LS-12 Line-In seemed to be "slightly thin", I think my setup is still the best of the four - at last soundwise. :headphones:

What do you think?


Well it is comparing apples and oranges but in general I think your mics are better suited to this material than the built-in ones on the H2 (assuming all other factors relatively equal). 

I think you like a brighter sound.  In general I do too.  When one doesn't have control over placement then equipment can sometimes get one closer to the desired result (though neutral equipment that can give you something suitable for post-processing may be a better approach, depending on your editing skills and patience).

I'm sure the circuitry inside an M-10 is objectively better than that inside the LS-12.  I think there is little difference (in terms of coloration) between mic-in and line-in on an M-10. 

That said if you know how to get results you like with what you have then maybe that's all you need.  There are degrees to our obsessions (and hearing and taste for relative sonic signatures). 

I would note that the M-10 is discontinued so if you think you want one look now... 
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 11:39:12 AM by bombdiggity »
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2016, 11:21:14 AM »
Rather than subjectively assessing the difference, look at the spectrum analysis. This is from approximately the same portion of the sample files - about a 5 second segment.

But, as someone noted, mic-in is going to pass the signal through the recorders preamps and color the sound some. If the preamps are crappy, well, you will not get as pleasing a sound.

I never really noticed a large difference with my M10 - not like you've exhibited with your Olympus.

^ Indeed.  This shows the difference you/we were hearing.  It is quite substantial and I'm not sure why they would choose to use pre-amps with that character. 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2016, 11:37:55 AM »
I also use a SP battery box -> M10.  Even after reading all these comments, Im still unclear about this - If I have auto gain off, microphone power off and use low sensitivity, are the line in and microphone in equivalent in terms of default gain? Or does the microphone input still add gain?

Since I use a battery box, I don't need power - mic in power is always off. Mic in on the M10 definitely adds gain compared to line in - about 5 notches on the dial in my experience. One of the more techy folks can probably give you the precise dB's.

Thank you for the response. Some of the comments struck me as counter intuitive. And a little googling led me to an article which suggested low sensitivity basically turned off the gain, which also confused me.

It seems to me that using the microphone port, if one is only using a battery box, is still usually the best strategy as you get he preamp gain (unless the sound is really loud)

It depends on what you record and the relative volume of the music and relative sensitivity of the mic.  If there's enough signal to go line-in I always went that way. 

At least with the M-10 I don't think there's much difference line-in or mic-in.  Use whichever you need to get adequate levels.  If the record level knob is anywhere between 1 and 9 and the levels register enough to be there (it doesn't even need to be -12 where the green light blinks) you're fine since you can (and should) amplify the result in post-processing. 

With the M-10 the mic sensitivity switch does make a substantial difference.  Running at mic-in low sensitivity may indeed be roughly the same amplification as line-in, so if something (battery box or external pre-amp) is powering the mics it seems you should go line-in rather than mic-in low sensitivity.  If you need high sensitivity just to get levels or need the plug-in power of the recorder to power the mics then you have to go mic-in. 

I did recently run something spur of the moment mic-in plug-in power with my SP CMC-25s (since my Tinybox preamp wasn't charged).  The result compared to the CMC-25 > Tinybox did have a slightly different character (most of which I think was from the pre-amp).  Soundwise it was close to what I'd expect but the dynamics were different.  The Tinybox seems to provide more dynamic range.  In theory a battery box or pre-amp also improves the signal to noise of the mics (and definitely helps raise the maximum SPL they can handle).  That signal to noise difference may be subtle enough you don't hear it if the music is even moderately loud.  The increased maximum SPL can be something you need if the music is really loud. 

I have two M-10s but am still not sure I can make an exact comp at the same time in a live setting (since different sets of CMC-25's are not matched to each other and I doubt any tiny mics are really precise).  I don't think I have the time or patience to set up a hi-fi playback sort of thing. 
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 11:43:14 AM by bombdiggity »
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline Pittylabelle

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2016, 12:35:37 PM »
Well it is comparing apples and oranges but in general I think your mics are better suited to this material than the built-in ones on the H2 (assuming all other factors relatively equal). 

I think you like a brighter sound.  In general I do too.  When one doesn't have control over placement then equipment can sometimes get one closer to the desired result (though neutral equipment that can give you something suitable for post-processing may be a better approach, depending on your editing skills and patience).

I'm sure the circuitry inside an M-10 is objectively better than that inside the LS-12.  I think there is little difference (in terms of coloration) between mic-in and line-in on an M-10. 

That said if you know how to get results you like with what you have then maybe that's all you need.  There are degrees to our obsessions (and hearing and taste for relative sonic signatures). 

I would note that the M-10 is discontinued so if you think you want one look now...

I've made some more tests today.

I think the "problem child" in the chain is the A3-Adaptor, not so much the circuits of the LS-12.

If I connect the OKM Rock mic directly to the mic in, I think I get the best results so far. Plug-In Power was of course On.

But I'm afraid of the behaviour of the mics during loud live concerts without the A3-Adaptor. According to the manufacture, the maximum sound pressure level of my OKM Rock mic is 131 dB.

Should I take the chance?

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6uqci5m7hraWERsUTZZaTlmTE0?usp=sharing

01 OKM-Rock to A3 to Mic-In - Sesitivitiy Low.wav
02 OKM-Rock to A3 to Line-In - Max Rec.-Level 30.wav
03 OKM-Rock to Mic-In - Plug-In-Power Sesitivitiy Low.wav (IMO best result)
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 12:39:59 PM by Pittylabelle »
Current Gear:
Microphone: Soundman OKM Rock "Special Variant" (binaural)
Recorder: Olympus LS-12

Offline Mike Stranks

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2016, 12:45:40 PM »
Must admit that until I pitched-up here a few days ago the world of battery-boxes was totally unknown to me. Must admit I do raise a quizzical eyebrow.... But then things are often VERY different on opposite sides of the pond.... Not wrong, just different...  ;D

If it was me I'd be looking for a preamp with XLR ins (and mics to fit of course) and then use an appropriate lead to connect to the line-in of the recorder. There are several of these about as used by the DSLR gang.

... and on the question of line-in vs mic-in... the majority of amateur (and not so amateur) recorders just put a -20dB pad on the line in and then route it to the mic preamp! I haven't checked the circuit of the LS-12, but would be very surprised if it WASN'T like that...

The older I get the better I used to be

Online aaronji

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2016, 12:59:48 PM »
Must admit that until I pitched-up here a few days ago the world of battery-boxes was totally unknown to me. Must admit I do raise a quizzical eyebrow.... But then things are often VERY different on opposite sides of the pond.... Not wrong, just different...  ;D

If it was me I'd be looking for a preamp with XLR ins (and mics to fit of course) and then use an appropriate lead to connect to the line-in of the recorder. There are several of these about as used by the DSLR gang.

Tapers in the UK and Europe (and elsewhere) also use battery boxes.  For miniature mics, terminated in a 3.5 mm mini-plug and running on ~ 9 V plug-in power, a battery box/small recorder combination is very small and easy to manage...

As for the mic vs. line difference, I measured it on the M10 once (with the mic gain at low sensitivity).  I can't recall the exact number, but it was 20-something dB.

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2016, 01:11:43 PM »

I've made some more tests today.

I think the "problem child" in the chain is the A3-Adaptor, not so much the circuits of the LS-12.

If I connect the OKM Rock mic directly to the mic in, I think I get the best results so far. Plug-In Power was of course On.

But I'm afraid of the behaviour of the mics during loud live concerts without the A3-Adaptor. According to the manufacture, the maximum sound pressure level of my OKM Rock mic is 131 dB.

Should I take the chance?

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6uqci5m7hraWERsUTZZaTlmTE0?usp=sharing

01 OKM-Rock to A3 to Mic-In - Sesitivitiy Low.wav
02 OKM-Rock to A3 to Line-In - Max Rec.-Level 30.wav
03 OKM-Rock to Mic-In - Plug-In-Power Sesitivitiy Low.wav (IMO best result)

A few thoughts here:

1) The first comp (which showed a major difference) included the A3 in both but generated very different results:

01 OKM-Rock to A3 to Line-In (Olympus LS-12).wav --> this file sounds "flat"
02 OKM-Rock to A3 to Mic-In (Olympus LS-12).wav --> this file sounds "bassy"

So there is a substantial difference between line-in and mic-in.

2) The A3 is a variable that may introduce coloration (which may also act unfortunately with the coloration from the recorder circuitry).  When working through questions like these you have to consider every piece in the chain. 

3) A 131 dB max SPL is quite good (if accurate).  I'd hope you're not at anything that loud.  You'd know it...  Maybe test it on a few things that aren't a big deal and see how it goes... 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline Pittylabelle

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2016, 01:24:40 PM »
A few thoughts here:

1) The first comp (which showed a major difference) included the A3 in both but generated very different results:

01 OKM-Rock to A3 to Line-In (Olympus LS-12).wav --> this file sounds "flat"
02 OKM-Rock to A3 to Mic-In (Olympus LS-12).wav --> this file sounds "bassy"

So there is a substantial difference between line-in and mic-in.

2) The A3 is a variable that may introduce coloration (which may also act unfortunately with the coloration from the recorder circuitry).  When working through questions like these you have to consider every piece in the chain. 

3) A 131 dB max SPL is quite good (if accurate).  I'd hope you're not at anything that loud.  You'd know it...  Maybe test it on a few things that aren't a big deal and see how it goes...

Thank you very much for your reply and patience!

Made another more "neutral" test, via the standardized line-out jacks of my tapedeck:

01 Tapedeck line-out to Olympus LS-12 line-in
02 Tapedeck line-out to Olympus LS-12 mic-in

Result: No audible coloration of the two soundfiles! Hooray, problem solved - The A3 is in fact the "problem"!

Another question:
According to the manufacturer, the OKM Rock will not get enough power without the A3 to work properly on loud events.

Any experience in this case?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 02:03:48 PM by Pittylabelle »
Current Gear:
Microphone: Soundman OKM Rock "Special Variant" (binaural)
Recorder: Olympus LS-12

Offline Todd R

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2016, 03:39:54 PM »
A3 is the "problem" sounds correct.

Just in general, a battery box uses a resistor and a capacitor in its circuit.  The values of these components, together with the input impedance of the recorder will determine where there is a bass rolloff and whether it is outside of the audible range (that is, roll-off occurring at below say 20Hz).

The line input of the LS10 has in input impedance of 78,000 ohms for the line in (2,000 ohms for the mic in).  In comparison, the Sony M10 has a line input impedance of 22,000 ohms.

With these differences and depending on the resistor and capacitor values for the A3, you could end up with the bass roll-off of the A3 plugged into the LS10 at say 40Hz (meaning, signal -3db down at 40Hz and -9db down at 20Hz).  Which isn't much roll-off, at least when considering concert recording where there is often an awful lot of low frequency content -- subwoofers cranked way up.

Plug the A3 into the M10 with an input impedance of 22,000 Hz and the bass roll-off occurs at closer to 80Hz -- meaning -3db down at 80Hz, -9db down at 40Hz, and -15db down at 20Hz.

These are made up numbers here, but in the realm of possibility, with the actual numbers depending on the specifications and components used in the A3.

But it is definitely possible given the differences in the line input impedance of the M10 compared to the input impedance of the of the LS10 that using the A3 battery box will result in a noticeable bass roll-off when used with the M10 that isn't heard when using the LS10.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline Pittylabelle

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2016, 03:49:19 PM »
A3 is the "problem" sounds correct.

Just in general, a battery box uses a resistor and a capacitor in its circuit.  The values of these components, together with the input impedance of the recorder will determine where there is a bass rolloff and whether it is outside of the audible range (that is, roll-off occurring at below say 20Hz).

The line input of the LS10 has in input impedance of 78,000 ohms for the line in (2,000 ohms for the mic in).  In comparison, the Sony M10 has a line input impedance of 22,000 ohms.

With these differences and depending on the resistor and capacitor values for the A3, you could end up with the bass roll-off of the A3 plugged into the LS10 at say 40Hz (meaning, signal -3db down at 40Hz and -9db down at 20Hz).  Which isn't much roll-off, at least when considering concert recording where there is often an awful lot of low frequency content -- subwoofers cranked way up.

Plug the A3 into the M10 with an input impedance of 22,000 Hz and the bass roll-off occurs at closer to 80Hz -- meaning -3db down at 80Hz, -9db down at 40Hz, and -15db down at 20Hz.

These are made up numbers here, but in the realm of possibility, with the actual numbers depending on the specifications and components used in the A3.

But it is definitely possible given the differences in the line input impedance of the M10 compared to the input impedance of the of the LS10 that using the A3 battery box will result in a noticeable bass roll-off when used with the M10 that isn't heard when using the LS10.

Thank you so much for this fantastic explanation and the resulting confirmation! ;-)

Any solution for my next "problem" without the A3?:
According to the manufacturer: If the OKM Rock mic is connected only via the recorder's plug-in-power, it will not get enough power to work properly on louder events (distortions).
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 03:59:43 PM by Pittylabelle »
Current Gear:
Microphone: Soundman OKM Rock "Special Variant" (binaural)
Recorder: Olympus LS-12

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2016, 05:50:14 PM »
A few thoughts here:

1) The first comp (which showed a major difference) included the A3 in both but generated very different results:

01 OKM-Rock to A3 to Line-In (Olympus LS-12).wav --> this file sounds "flat"
02 OKM-Rock to A3 to Mic-In (Olympus LS-12).wav --> this file sounds "bassy"

So there is a substantial difference between line-in and mic-in.

2) The A3 is a variable that may introduce coloration (which may also act unfortunately with the coloration from the recorder circuitry).  When working through questions like these you have to consider every piece in the chain. 

3) A 131 dB max SPL is quite good (if accurate).  I'd hope you're not at anything that loud.  You'd know it...  Maybe test it on a few things that aren't a big deal and see how it goes...

Thank you very much for your reply and patience!

Made another more "neutral" test, via the standardized line-out jacks of my tapedeck:

01 Tapedeck line-out to Olympus LS-12 line-in
02 Tapedeck line-out to Olympus LS-12 mic-in

Result: No audible coloration of the two soundfiles! Hooray, problem solved - The A3 is in fact the "problem"!

Another question:
According to the manufacturer, the OKM Rock will not get enough power without the A3 to work properly on loud events.

Any experience in this case?

Well your detective work is admirable. 

This combined with the reply below about the variability of input impedances and my less technically informed suspicion of some unfortunate mismatching between components seems to be the answer. 

Very odd but apparently the input impedance of the line-in and the mic-in are different on that recorder, which in combination with the A3 generates the differing roll-offs. 

So with your next question:

First what does the manufacturer say the power requirements are for the mic?  Second what power level does the LS-12 supply through plug-in power?  Plug-in power from most recorders is usually 3.5V as I recall.  Small mics seem to require anything from 3V to 9V.  A substantially lower power output than needed will typically cause problems. 

Another option would be a different battery box, power supply or pre-amp that matches up better. 
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 05:52:57 PM by bombdiggity »
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline Pittylabelle

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2016, 07:40:31 PM »
Well your detective work is admirable. 

This combined with the reply below about the variability of input impedances and my less technically informed suspicion of some unfortunate mismatching between components seems to be the answer. 

Very odd but apparently the input impedance of the line-in and the mic-in are different on that recorder, which in combination with the A3 generates the differing roll-offs. 

So with your next question:

First what does the manufacturer say the power requirements are for the mic?  Second what power level does the LS-12 supply through plug-in power?  Plug-in power from most recorders is usually 3.5V as I recall.  Small mics seem to require anything from 3V to 9V.  A substantially lower power output than needed will typically cause problems. 

Another option would be a different battery box, power supply or pre-amp that matches up better.

Thanks for nothing! ;-)

Technical data:

Directionality: omni directional
Frequency range: 2o – 2o ooo Hz +/- 3dB
Sensitivity: 5 mV/Pa +/- 3 dB
-46 dB ref 1V/Pa +/- 3dB

Acoustic pattern: reversed
SPL: 131 dB
(131 dB, K= 3 % U gr. als 7,5 V, R=18 kOhm)

Equivalent Signal/Noise cautions:
dB ( A-weights), effective 26 dB
Peek: ( CCIR 468-2 filter: 39 dB

Feed Voltage: 4,5 V…+15 V
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 07:42:54 PM by Pittylabelle »
Current Gear:
Microphone: Soundman OKM Rock "Special Variant" (binaural)
Recorder: Olympus LS-12

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2016, 11:31:52 PM »

Thanks for nothing! ;-)


You're most welcome...   ;D


Feed Voltage: 4,5 V…+15 V


Looks to me like those mics want 4.5V of power. 

As I said I think "plug-in-power" from most recorders is 3 to 3.5V, but some may be less.  So not a huge mismatch but it could certainly be enough that they underperform.  Some smaller mics like DPA's require 9V so no chance those even work at all with P-I-P...

If you can find the spec for what the LS-12 supplies that may get you closer to the theoretical answer. 

I'm a great believer in trial and error, but research may eliminate the worst of the potential errors... 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2016, 12:36:56 AM »
Is there a reason you can't just run Line In at maximum gain and then amplify in post?

Offline Pittylabelle

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2016, 08:20:58 AM »
Is there a reason you can't just run Line In at maximum gain and then amplify in post?

Don't know exactly what you mean, but as said before, I have to push the line-in record level at maximum gain to get a level of -12, on relative loud live concerts.
Yes, then in fact I have to amplify the file to -3 dB in "postproduction". It's not possble to get that recording level of -12 on quiter concerts or events.

But, as bombdiggity said before, the line-in sound of my LS-12 in combination with the A3 is too "thin".

So, all I wanted to do was to switch to mic-in - but this resulted into the described coloration of the sound.

But this problem should be solved now.


« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 08:23:44 AM by Pittylabelle »
Current Gear:
Microphone: Soundman OKM Rock "Special Variant" (binaural)
Recorder: Olympus LS-12

Offline Life In Rewind

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2016, 08:36:10 AM »
Must admit that until I pitched-up here a few days ago the world of battery-boxes was totally unknown to me. Must admit I do raise a quizzical eyebrow.... But then things are often VERY different on opposite sides of the pond.... Not wrong, just different...  ;D

If it was me I'd be looking for a preamp with XLR ins (and mics to fit of course) and then use an appropriate lead to connect to the line-in of the recorder. There are several of these about as used by the DSLR gang.

... and on the question of line-in vs mic-in... the majority of amateur (and not so amateur) recorders just put a -20dB pad on the line in and then route it to the mic preamp! I haven't checked the circuit of the LS-12, but would be very surprised if it WASN'T like that...

Battery boxes have been around for decades now - built out of the DIY scene - and eventually became key products for CORE, SoundPros and Church Audio (among others)

Many of these battery box devices were conceived and designed with live-music tapers as the target audience.

Size is important when engaging low-profile recording scenarios...the smaller the better, hence low-pro guys don't want XLRs or extra preamps.

Also - recently, A LOT of guys (open tapers) have moved on from the "separates" approach.

For sure, there was a time when you had slews of guys toting V3s, MixPres, UA5s and even rack gear, to connect with a downstream recorder, ideally connected with a digital connection, allowing the recorder to function as a simple "Bit Bucket"

As newer recorders emerged - like the DR-680, DR-70, ZOOM H6. F8 and F4 - tapers have started leaving their preamps at home...we now have nice clean quiet front ends that can handle loud music...

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2016, 10:44:01 AM »
Must admit that until I pitched-up here a few days ago the world of battery-boxes was totally unknown to me. Must admit I do raise a quizzical eyebrow.... But then things are often VERY different on opposite sides of the pond.... Not wrong, just different...  ;D

If it was me I'd be looking for a preamp with XLR ins (and mics to fit of course) and then use an appropriate lead to connect to the line-in of the recorder. There are several of these about as used by the DSLR gang.



I doubt we do things much differently over "here" but there may be a more active community of people producing atypical equipment over here for more specialized purposes. If I'm open taping I normally use equipment you would probably consider more "normal" - A deck with phantom power and XLR connections, etc.  When I do real stealth recording, however, the smaller the equipment the better. AT853s in conjunction with a battery box and a M10 is pretty small.  Schoeps capsules and an active cable to an IFA is also really small. 
AKG C480B (ck61, ck63, ck8) /  Neumann KM100 (AK40, AK50) / AT853s  (cardiod, omni) / CA-14 (cardiod) / CA-11 (Omni) / Mixpre-10t / Mixpre-6 / Roland R-07 / Zoom F-3
paypal: rippleish20@gmail.com

Offline Pittylabelle

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Mic connected directly to the mic-in of Olympus LS-12- without the A3!
« Reply #41 on: November 14, 2016, 08:41:07 AM »

Thanks for nothing! ;-)


You're most welcome...   ;D


Feed Voltage: 4,5 V…+15 V


Looks to me like those mics want 4.5V of power. 

As I said I think "plug-in-power" from most recorders is 3 to 3.5V, but some may be less.  So not a huge mismatch but it could certainly be enough that they underperform.  Some smaller mics like DPA's require 9V so no chance those even work at all with P-I-P...

If you can find the spec for what the LS-12 supplies that may get you closer to the theoretical answer. 

I'm a great believer in trial and error, but research may eliminate the worst of the potential errors...

Hello, it's me again.

Well, I took the chance and recorded my next show without the A3 (yesterday). The mic was connected directly to the mic-in of the Olympus LS-12.
Settings: sensitivity "High", plug-in-power "On", recording level "15"
My position: centered ca. 3 meters!!! in front of the PA speakers

It was a relative loud and heavy indoor rock concert:
"Jethro Tull's Martin Barre - 2016 11 13 Dortmund Germany"

Result: absolutely NO distortons or clippings in the file!!! :headphones:
Just a "beautiful"wave courve.

Seems that the OKM II Rock mic is able to work properly with the delivered plug-in-power of the Olympus LS-12. But I must admit, I haven't found any revealing infos before, about the exact plug-in-power.

What do you think?

Cheers
« Last Edit: November 14, 2016, 08:47:01 AM by Pittylabelle »
Current Gear:
Microphone: Soundman OKM Rock "Special Variant" (binaural)
Recorder: Olympus LS-12

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Mic connected directly to the mic-in of Olympus LS-12- without the A3!
« Reply #42 on: November 14, 2016, 11:35:51 AM »

Hello, it's me again.

Well, I took the chance and recorded my next show without the A3 (yesterday). The mic was connected directly to the mic-in of the Olympus LS-12.
Settings: sensitivity "High", plug-in-power "On", recording level "15"
My position: centered ca. 3 meters!!! in front of the PA speakers

It was a relative loud and heavy indoor rock concert:
"Jethro Tull's Martin Barre - 2016 11 13 Dortmund Germany"

Result: absolutely NO distortons or clippings in the file!!! :headphones:
Just a "beautiful"wave courve.

Seems that the OKM II Rock mic is able to work properly with the delivered plug-in-power of the Olympus LS-12. But I must admit, I haven't found any revealing infos before, about the exact plug-in-power.

What do you think?

Cheers

Bingo...  If it can handle what is likely to be as loud as anything you'll go to you're fine... 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline Pittylabelle

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Re: Mic connected directly to the mic-in of Olympus LS-12- without the A3!
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2016, 06:26:23 PM »
Bingo...  If it can handle what is likely to be as loud as anything you'll go to you're fine...

Finally, I received the technical specs from the manufacturer of my "Rock Classic Variant" microphone, from Soundman Berlin, Germany:

"This capsules operates with 3 Volts. Thereby it is able to record a SPL of 131 dB. The A3, as you have gathered, is therefore oblsolete -
at least the A3 would not make possible a higher sound pressure."

www.soundman.de
« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 06:39:59 PM by Pittylabelle »
Current Gear:
Microphone: Soundman OKM Rock "Special Variant" (binaural)
Recorder: Olympus LS-12

 

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