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Author Topic: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2  (Read 6003 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« on: January 06, 2018, 03:37:13 PM »
Continuation from the original thread here- http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=96009.msg1279052#msg1279052

DANG! OMT with the sideways supercards angled forward +/-45 degrees most certainly works in a small club (a good sounding one at least) as long as you can manage to shoe-horn it in there and keep everyone happy.  So good in fact I plan to play with angling those sideways facing supers forward outdoors to see if it works equally well everywhere.  I'll definitely be revising the OMT suggestion for small rooms (crappy ones remain to be tested, but I'm not overly motivated to explore that front). Listening today to last night's recording directly off the DR-680 via headphones using the 680's internal monitoring mixer I prefer not doing the Mid/Side mixing thing with the rear facing channel when the spaced +/-45 degree supercards are also in use, but rather just bringing it channel up with the appropriate level, panned to center.  Played back in surround with all six channels feeding their own speakers (no mixing, just mult'ing the single rear-facing microphone  channel to two back speakers, omnis routed to the side surrounds and sub) the way it handles audience chatter and room sound is really impressive.  All that is there, more of it in fact compared to the 2ch stereo mix, but the separation of it from the main stuff in front actually improves clarity of the vocalist and on-stage stuff and makes it easier to hear around the elements which would otherwise be distracting and cluttering.  I'll certainly be exploring this angle more.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 12:00:07 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2018, 05:45:03 PM »
bump to join thread. Kung Fu 2017-12-16 OMT up now:
https://archive.org/details/kungfu2017-12-16.24akgck22ck61
to compare, here is kindms AKGck1x (cardiods) PAS recording:
https://archive.org/details/kungfu2017-12-16.akgck1x

snap is close up of both rigs
rig1] (AKG c460b|ck22 omni's spread 108 cm + AKG ck3 fwd and ck61ULS rear|naiant actives (black windscreens).
rig2] AKG ck1x on AKG collette (middle pair of large Shure AW81S)
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 07:35:22 PM by rocksuitcase »
music IS love

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Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2018, 07:19:38 PM »
I provided an audio patch out to the music club's regular video taper this past weekend while trying out 6ch OMT in a small club.  Below are links to a couple YouTube clips he's posted which will give some idea of baseline performance in this kind of situation.

Caveats!-  Audio here is a raw 6ch>2ch monitor mix made on-the-fly out of the DR-680.  No listening was done, much less proper balancing, EQ or any other post production.  Balance, mix levels and panning of the 6 OMT microphone channels were simply a best guess.  Deep omni bass content overloads the input of the small video recorder at times.  Subjected to video recorder's file compression and of course YouTube data compression, yada, yada & hand-waving.. At least it's something to give you all a taste of what OMT can do in a small club.  Unfortunately the video taper didn't run for Mingo Fishtrap which was the best sounding set of the weekend after Bettye LaVette, and of an entirely different genre (full NOLA-ish band with funky organ & horn section).  Recording location was from the same column the video cam is mounted to. It's hard to tell from the video, but that's basically the far left side of the room, in-line with the left PA, about 15' away from the stage.

Bettye Lavette (Elenor Rigby > Love Rein O'ver Me) - https://youtu.be/N1oq2ZqfKt8

Tim Palmieri solo happy-hour-
(You Enjoy Myself ~ Linus & Lucy ~ Blackbird ~ Wish You Were Here ~ YEM ~ Golden Slumbers ~ Carry That Weight ~ YEM ~ Wipe Out ~ Louie Louie ~ Blister In The Sun)- https://youtu.be/D-ALOX7_13c
(Hits From The Bong)- https://youtu.be/Xgvdbzn3cB8
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Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2018, 02:44:27 PM »
Thanks a lot for sending your recordings. Rocksuitcase, it is great to have your OMT and Kindms's single pair for comparison. Overall I prefer the OMT version, there is great sense of space. And I like the warm sound on Kindms recording. But maybe that is possible to tune it on OMT by an equalizer.

Gutbucket, you have my big respect for a 6ch on-the-fly mix. It is a very pleasant listening. I'm surprised that it sounds so spatially even when you were close to the left PA. How much did you space supercards?

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2018, 03:22:56 PM »
Thanks a lot for sending your recordings. Rocksuitcase, it is great to have your OMT and Kindms's single pair for comparison. Overall I prefer the OMT version, there is great sense of space. And I like the warm sound on Kindms recording. But maybe that is possible to tune it on OMT by an equalizer.

Gutbucket, you have my big respect for a 6ch on-the-fly mix. It is a very pleasant listening. I'm surprised that it sounds so spatially even when you were close to the left PA. How much did you space supercards?
The kicker about the comparison is the room itself is typically difficult to get good vocals on an AUD recording. Toad's place is basically a rectangular width room with the stage in the middle against one long wall with the soundbooth, hence mic stand location being about 40 feet from the stacks, again centered in the rectangle. When I would run with Blues Traveler's permission, I would run up in the crows nest, which is where Matt set up his official streaming/recording cameras along with the SBD feed into them. So, to read that the OMT has "great sense of space" makes me truly smile as this is the characteristic most missing from other recordings in there. Also, when you like the warmth of the ck1x recording, that tells me those mics worked well with his SD pre-amp.  I agree with your assessment as well, the OMT is more "realistic" while the ck1x has nice warmth if maybe a bit  boomy in the low frequencies.
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2018, 04:49:01 PM »
I think the warm difference with Kindms recording is not because preamp. OMT contains omnis, it should be more warm than Kindms's cards. Maybe It would help to highlight in eq lower frequencies of the omnis. I do not know if the word "warm" is right. Do not take me as someone who can advise. Better to wait for others.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 04:50:37 PM by kuba e »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2018, 05:12:31 PM »
kuba- Yes, you can easily adjust the overall tonal balance via EQ, but that's not the only way.  You can also do so via the level balance between the omnis and the center mics.  So for instance, with a quick and dirty mix straight out of the DR-680 recorder using it's built-in monitor mixer that provides no EQ ability, I can dial up the omnis a bit more and the center mic(s) down a bit to tilt the tonal balance towards more bass and less treble, or vice versa.  Of course it helps if I'm actually listening while making those decisions. It happened to work out pretty well in the Youtube samples above just by knowing what monitor mix balances I've used in the past, even though I wasn't actually listening when I dialing it in for that patch-out.

This is where the flexibility in mixing OMT begins to come into play - and what really makes it advantageous in shaping whatever you come home with into something which works optimally for the listener.

Using EQ you can adjust overall tonal balance in a few ways- EQing each element separately before combining the channels and/or EQ'ing the resulting 2 channel mix after combining things.  So for example you can EQ the omnis primarily for what they are contributing to the bottom end, while EQ'ing the center mic or pair more for what they are doing in the midrange and top end.  And after combining the channels you can EQ the full 2-channel mix.  Typically I do both, but with different things in mind..

Actually, I sort of consider three separate corrective 'steps' or stages in putting together the finished product, and EQ is an important element in each of those steps, second in importance only to general signal integrity and level.  Looks like it's time to start outlining my process for mixing OMT.  I'll offer you a basic outline of what I do before blathering more philosophy about mixing and this approach in particular.

Basic OMT mixing in 3-steps-

1) First I'll do base-line corrective stuff to each channel.  Mentally asking myself things like- "Does this single channel have any problems?"; "Do the two omni channels sound similar in tonal balance and have a good level balance between them?" If not I'll compare just those channels and adjust one or the other as necessary to get them both sounding about the same.  That imbalance could due to some particularity about where I was setup in the venue, the PA, my recording trims being off, a misbehaving microphone or whatever.  In any case, I make sure each channel is okay on its own and more or less matches its pair in tonality if it has one.  Then I'll make sure they work together well as a pair, balancing the level between the two so that the stereo image is centered when listing just to that pair on it's own.  When I'm done with this step I have a good-sounding, well-balanced omni pair (channels 1 & 2), a good-sounding center channel (ch 3), a good sounding rear-facing channel (ch 4), and a good sounding pair of Left/Right supercardioid pair (ch's 5 & 6).  If using a center forward-facing coincident-pair instead of front/rear-facing mics, channels 2 & 3 are treated as a pair instead of independent channels.  Lock the individual channels of each of these pairs together so that you can adjust the level of the pair as a whole without upsetting its balance in the next step where you'll be balancing each pair against the other.

2) Then I'll do the mixing/combining part- setting up the mix balance between these elements.  This is where it gets fun and is probably the most subjective part of putting everything together. 

I usually start with the omni pair and build from that.  We already have it sounding good on its own so just pull up the level on that pair.  Hard-pan those omnis hard-Left and hard-Right.  Don't worry about any "hole in the middle" of the stereo image at this point if there is one (probably not unless they were quite widely spaced).  Next bring up your single center channel panned to center.  You've already gotten that sounding decent tonally, so just listen to what it does as you raise the it's level and it combines with the omnis.  Play around with it.  I find there are often three ways to work it, it depends on the recording and type of music, and there is no wrong answer- either the center level is about the same as the omnis acting as an "equal player", the center is lower in level and basically "fixes whatever is lacking with the omnis", or the center level is higher than the omnis and sort of dominates the mix.  I'll come back to this later as there are many different things going with this center/sides balance thing besides getting a solid stereo image, and the best choice will be one which finds an optimal balance between all those things.  For now, just listen for a solid soundstage between Left to Right which a reinforces the center content nicely, such that everything sounds balanced and you really miss it when you mute the center channel.  Don't worry about tonal concerns, how well you can understand the vocals, how distant it sounds or things like that at this point.

If you've recorded a center coincident-pair instead of a single center channel, pan both channels of the pair panned to center.  That effectively makes it a single monophonic center channel.  Balance it's level with the omnis as described above first, then play with panning the center Left and Right channels outwards by the same amount (symmetrically).  Try it fully hard-panned to either side as well as in all positions in-between.  The nice thing about having a coincident center pair is that you can pan this pair however you want without creating phase-conflicts.   Listen for a good, even image-blend between the center and sides.  You might like it best with no center spread at all (both mics of the center pair panned center), with fully hard-panned to either side, or somewhere inbetween.  Again there is no rule here other than getting it sounding good.  In general you are likely to end up with a center pair panned less widely than you normally would without the omnis in the mix.  Sometimes I'll pan them just a minimal bit to either side, but that slight panning makes a big difference in getting a smooth blend across the full soundstage and keeping the center from sounding separate and overly point-like.  If you mute the omni channels you might be surprised to find how narrow your choice sounds on its own.  That's an indication of how mic configurations need to change when used in combination with one another (taken care of by the OMT mic setup) and is helpful to hear to understand how each of the parts combine to make a sum greater than the parts.

Take your time here, work up a few different balances between center/sides (and center spread if you have a pair there) and listen to them for a while to see which one works best and sticks with you.  Often it may become apparent that what was sounding really good at first doesn't hold up under longer listening or only works for that particular section or song.  Try to find whatever balance works well for the entire concert and holds your interest without anything about it bothering you after a listening for a while.

If you have a rear-facing microphone, bring that up last panned to center.  The optimal level on the rear-facing channel will vary a lot depending on the situation, the room, the audience, etc.  You'll probably want to use more of it when listening to the sections between songs and during quieter numbers when the audience is quiet, and less of that during louder numbers, or when the audience is talking back there.

3) Once you have a mix you like, you can fine-tune the 2-channel mix bus or the resulting two channel mix output if you choose to edit that separately.  We are now to the point were we do the same things we would to any normal two-channel recording- EQ the whole thing (more subtle overall-tonal tweaks at this point), normalize, track, fade, whatever.


To me it helps to think of those 3 steps as follows:

The first step mostly about "fixing problems" and getting to a good level playing field starting point.
The second step is the "creative mixing" part where most of the gross (and subtle) decisions which have the greatest creative input on the the result are made.
The final step is the "mastering" part.  Putting the final polish on the thing and otherwise prep'ing it for release.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 07:29:35 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2018, 05:22:03 PM »
Later I'll describe more subtle things you can do which really make this technique powerful, like EQ'ing the center channel differently to reduce conflict with the sides or to enhance vocal clarity and presence without the entire recording becoming too bright, and other stuff like that which comes after step 2 but before step 3 in the basic outline above.   Similarly, there are advanced EQ decisions you can make to the other channels- the omnis, the rear-facing channel, etc, which work in combination to create a greater sum than each of the parts in isolation.  As you move toward these more advance steps you'll begin to push the channels away from their "everything sounds as good as it can on its own" starting point of step 1, in a way somewhat analogous to ending up with a more narrow center X/Y pan in step 2 than you otherwise would for that pair on its own.
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Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2018, 05:52:04 PM »
I love to read it. This is huge help. I will try to write more in the morning.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2018, 06:04:30 PM »
I think the warm difference with Kindms recording is not because preamp. OMT contains omnis, it should be more warm than Kindms's cards. Maybe It would help to highlight in eq lower frequencies of the omnis. I do not know if the word "warm" is right. Do not take me as someone who can advise. Better to wait for others.

Also consider that while it's useful to compare the overall sound of both in deciding if this is worthwhile or not, its very difficult to make specific comparisons of tonality or whatever because as explained above, Rocksuitcase's mix is his subjective choice, not only because he's applying EQ, but because of his choices of level balance, and OMT is always going to be more subjective in this way because we have to make these decisions in creating any 2-channel stereo mix from it.

I also noted more low frequency energy "warmth" in kindms' ck1x cardioid pair recording.  I personally don't find it too much or boomy but like that tonal balance.  Tonally, I prefer it's low-frequency balance to the OMT mix, at least on the gear I'm listening through, even though it lacks other traits I like in the OMT recording such as the sense of openness and spatial dimension.  Rock, please don't take this the wrong way, but I generally find your mixes a bit light on the bottom up through the lower midrange to my ear.  I haven't mentioned that previously because its a subtle subjective thing, but it's been stirring around in my head for a while and I think this is a good comparison to explore that a bit more.

The big OMT post production variables - subjective mix choices and what our monitoring is revealing (or not)-

Again these are subjective choices we make in putting the resulting recording together, but those choices are entirely dependent on what our monitoring is telling us.  It's not just really easy to correct for some minor (or major) imbalance in our playback monitoring when making decisions about what to do with the mix, we will in fact always do that unless we've specifically learned how to compensate for the deficiencies of our monitoring.  That's tough, because then the goal is to intentionally make it "not sound as good as it can" on our monitoring system but adhere what we have learned it needs to sound like there to sound correct everywhere else (on balance).  This is the well known mix-translation problem, and it is actually aggravated by this super flexible system of OMT mixing where we gain more control over everything.  It's one of the big reason's I've not released more stuff before now because I've long recognized my monitoring is the weakest link in my own recording-mixing-monitoring chain.  I know what to do but I don't trust my monitoring enough.  Okay so I'm a bit too much of a perfectionist there with respect to being a "taper", but that's partly because I know that once it's out there I'll never really have a second chance for a re-do.  That said, I'm getting closer to setting up a monitoring system I feel like I can trust, and the biggest issues there are getting the bottom and lower-midrange right.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 07:12:21 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2018, 06:15:43 PM »
Gutbucket, you have my big respect for a 6ch on-the-fly mix. It is a very pleasant listening. I'm surprised that it sounds so spatially even when you were close to the left PA. How much did you space supercards?

Thanks.  I'll get mixed versions up at some point.  I can make a few of my raw recorded OMT files available to anyone here to play with as well.  It would be fun to see how different each person's resulting mix ends up.  I also hope to up-load some auditory examples of building a mix step by step.

I'll remeasure my rig to confirm but the general spacing was about 5' total on the omnis and about half that on the L/R supercardioids angled 45 degrees forward.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2018, 06:50:47 PM »
Took a few photos with my phone last weekend trying to show the OMT setup in that room.  Tough to make out against the black ceiling in a dark room, but here are a few snaps.  These four show sort of an overview of the room and the relationship between the recording position, PA and stage.

First is the view of Tim Palmieri on stage as seen from the recording position (no rig in frame).

Second is the view from side-stage/bar-entrance (rig is at the column, stand placed on a table around the column, stand running up the front column edge closest to center stage, mics up high).

Third is the view from the back half of the room not quite all the way to the rear wall.  Video guy jumped up on on a chair all excited about the Phish tunes. (Mic-stand and 3 of the 4 supercards can be seen, left supercard obscured by column, both omnis obscured by darkness)

Fourth is from the SBD during Betty LaVette (you can see the outward extension of the right omni past the right supercardioid in this one - flush-mounted into the black ball at the end of the antenna).

« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 07:15:31 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2018, 07:06:25 PM »
Here are some crappy closeups of the OMT array-

First two are of the array during setup.  Stand hasn't been raised yet above the video cam which made the YouTube clips posted above, omnis are still retracted (you can see that the omnis retract in to the same position as the Left/Right supercards, except the Left ommi's telescopic arm now retracts only part-way due to a splint repairing a break)

Third shows the array from below.  The rear facing mic is up against the column.  You can see the angle of the right supercard and the position-relationship between the the supers in frame (front and rear-facing supers have an bigger windscreens than the Right supercard).

Blurry forth shows the array as seen from a perspective closer to the center of the room, raised fully above the video camera.

The miniature DPA omnis are mounted in my DIY sphere accessories to make them somewhat directional (and eliminate potential eye-pokes).  Here I pointed them +/- 45 degrees to the front.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 07:35:29 PM by Gutbucket »
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
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Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2018, 08:02:50 AM »
Oddball microphone technique is a beautiful thing. The following may be useful for those who are beginners like me. I started with two microphones. It took me a long time to understand the relationship between distance, angles, polar patterns (The stereophonic zoom - Michael Williams). I only made audience recordings this time. Then I tried onstage recordings with two or even four microphones or sbd feed. Here I needed to get a little more of theory (sound frequency, comb filtering, basics of sound propagation) And I also needed to use a little bit of post processing e.g. little eq or little shift of the stereo image.  And from there, it is already close to the OMT.

I am from Europe and hobby taping is not popular here. I got all the information from this forum. Great thanks to everyone from forum.

But why am I writing it? I was surprised by one thing. I'm music lover but I am a very simple, low-cost listener, I have no sound education and I'm working outside the music industry. But I noticed that the more I record, the more aspects I can distinguish in the recording. I did not expect that. I am just at the beginning because recording is only a hobby and I'm doing it for joy. But I know our brain has the ability to train listening skills and it may be unobtrusive, step by step. Things, that with I've fought in the past, are easy, fast and effortless to solve for me today. Of course, I get new obstacles that I didn't see in the past. If anyone is hobby taper like me and thinking about trying the OMT, do it. It will cost time and effort and the final recordings may not be good. But that's not important,  for sure recordings will come out better next time.

The big OMT post production variables - subjective mix choices and what our monitoring is revealing (or not)-
and also my ability, how subtle details I am able to distinguish. OMT is an ideal learning opportunity.

I can make a few of my raw recorded OMT files available to anyone here to play with as well.  It would be fun to see how different each person's resulting mix ends up.  I also hope to up-load some auditory examples of building a mix step by step.
I'm excited. It will be fun. And that would be a great help too.

Thanks for your photos. I should buy a selfphone with a camera (I'm an old school) because taking pictures of my rigs. I can see on your photo that the rear microphone could not be in the axle, but that is negligible. It reminded me my recording of Medeski and Mule. I used the rear microphone in Mid / Side. On your advice, I delayed the rear microphone before entering in the Mid / Side . The resulting sound was more pleasant to me. But as you say, these are very subtle things.

Thank you for sharing OMT with us. I see how much effort you gave in development. I appreciate Rocksuitecase help too. I found another beautiful part in taping because OMT.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 08:05:22 AM by kuba e »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2018, 09:06:57 AM »
Thanks for the kind words kuba. And your interest.  I too find that the deeper I get into this the more I can hear, and the more I understand the more I enjoy the music on a deeper level.  Figuring out the puzzle is a big part of the fun for me, as is sharing what I've figured out here with anyone else who may be interested.  Part of what makes this so interesting is that live-music taping, especially from the audience, is a unique form of recording which benefits from unique solutions which don't really apply to, or come directly from, more common forms of audio recording.

The journey is the destination.

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2018, 09:35:54 AM »
Learning recordings reminds me yoga. Yoga says that with the rough mind we can only see rough things. With more subtle mind, we can see subtle things too. We have to know the rough mind to get to the subtle. The same thing applies to the recordings. Sometimes I wondered if the sound masters are able to listen to an amateur recordings. If they are not disturbed by all the rough things that I do not hear. It's probably the same answer as in yoga, it's not disturbing them. I am sorry for light turn.

Part of what makes this so interesting is that live-music taping, especially from the audience, is a unique form of recording which benefits from unique solutions which don't really apply to, or come directly from, more common forms of audio recording.
I totally agree. Audience recordings have special magic.

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2018, 09:54:31 AM »
I think the warm difference with Kindms recording is not because preamp. OMT contains omnis, it should be more warm than Kindms's cards. Maybe It would help to highlight in eq lower frequencies of the omnis. I do not know if the word "warm" is right. Do not take me as someone who can advise. Better to wait for others.

Also consider that while it's useful to compare the overall sound of both in deciding if this is worthwhile or not, its very difficult to make specific comparisons of tonality or whatever because as explained above, Rocksuitcase's mix is his subjective choice, not only because he's applying EQ, but because of his choices of level balance, and OMT is always going to be more subjective in this way because we have to make these decisions in creating any 2-channel stereo mix from it.

I also noted more low frequency energy "warmth" in kindms' ck1x cardioid pair recording.  I personally don't find it too much or boomy but like that tonal balance.  Tonally, I prefer it's low-frequency balance to the OMT mix, at least on the gear I'm listening through, even though it lacks other traits I like in the OMT recording such as the sense of openness and spatial dimension.  Rock, please don't take this the wrong way, but I generally find your mixes a bit light on the bottom up through the lower midrange to my ear.  I haven't mentioned that previously because its a subtle subjective thing, but it's been stirring around in my head for a while and I think this is a good comparison to explore that a bit more.
Gut- no offense taken; kuba- I took another listen in my preferred "ideal" listening environment-my car-lol and definitely hear what you are saying "warmth" wise; to my ears the cymbals and high end is EX, but the low end is a bit sterile. I do wish I had some better mixing tools/software.
To the major point- ever since deploying OMT and learning to do the mixes I have had an inferior DAW listening situation in that the bass is always too boomy in my set-up. Therefore, at the beginning of seriously mixing OMT (Greyfox 2016) Gutbucket had mentioned one mix being way light in bass freq's. That event had an issue with the bass being so loud in the PA that the artists onstage as well as audience members complained so much the artists' complaints are during their set on the recordings!
I have finally obtained a nice subwoofer and feel my monitor environment is "better" for me to make mixing decisions. I will add that I typically do not finalize my mix before I take the working file into my car and listen to it all the way through. That has influenced me to make changes. What I am hearing you guys say is I am reducing the bass a bit too much in these mixes. Once mixed to two channels, I have been typically EQ'ing under 400Hz ->20Hz using graphic EQ and taking it down 4-6dB. This is further emphasized by the fact that kindms does zero EQ'ing with his two channel mixes (and I typically do very little to no EQ'ing of two channel takes).
Sooooo, in conclusion of this aspect; I hear what exactly you say regarding the Kung Fu OMT vs ck1x. Again, not going to go back and re-do it timewise, howwever, I haven't released the 16 bit yet;' maybe I will go in and do a different 2 channel EQ on it and ask what you guys hear.
As a request to you both re this "to little bass-low mids" topic, would you mind listening to the Twiddle OMT and compare it to taperchris' card mix? The PA had HUGE amounts of bass, but it wa so clean, I didn't reduce as much 400 on down as I did with the Kung Fu.
https://archive.org/details/twiddle2017-12-30.24akgck22ck3
https://archive.org/details/Twiddle2017-12-30.tcca.flac16

Great discussion so far. I just had a thought that I save my EQ curves in Audacity and could possibly take screenshots and title them properly such that it may be a part of learning/teaching/discussing mixing the OMT.
 
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2018, 12:44:14 PM »
Do not worry, it's a good recording for me and 90% of people. But I understand when something can be improved, I would have done it.

These are interesting things for me. The imperfections can be better heard when two records of the same music can be compared. But e.g. Gutbucket's sample - I can not distinguish it's imperfections, it is above my distinctive ability. So the recording is perfect from my point of view. On the other hand, Gutbucket can distinguish these details, so he has better experience of music than I do and he can enjoy it more than me. Recording is an art.

You mentioned that you were using Audacity. Can you change or turn on/off EQ during playback in Audacity? It was not possible a few years ago. If is it still then comparison and decision making is very difficult. In a lot of programs, the effects can be changed or turned on/off by one click during playback. You can hear (and repeatedly) the difference immediately, so you have easier decision making.

As a request to you both re this "to little bass-low mids" topic, would you mind listening to the Twiddle OMT and compare it to taperchris' card mix? The PA had HUGE amounts of bass, but it wa so clean, I didn't reduce as much 400 on down as I did with the Kung Fu.
https://archive.org/details/twiddle2017-12-30.24akgck22ck3
https://archive.org/details/Twiddle2017-12-30.tcca.flac16

OTM has warmth, it's enjoyable listening for me. Maybe Chris used too much bass reduction. Did Chris have a stand near you?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 12:57:31 PM by kuba e »

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2018, 12:57:14 PM »
As a request to you both re this "to little bass-low mids" topic, would you mind listening to the Twiddle OMT and compare it to taperchris' card mix? The PA had HUGE amounts of bass, but it wa so clean, I didn't reduce as much 400 on down as I did with the Kung Fu.
https://archive.org/details/twiddle2017-12-30.24akgck22ck3
https://archive.org/details/Twiddle2017-12-30.tcca.flac16

OTM has warmth, it's enjoyable listening for me. Maybe Chris used too much bass reduction. Did Chris have a stand near you?
Chris's stand was about 4 feet behind and 10 feet Left of mine (which was DFC front row balcony). I think the sound on this two channel master is about as excellent as I've ever heard from both my own gear/mixing AND the band's PA perspective. The bass player, Zdnek Gubb, was simply KILLING it LOUDLY; he must have gotten new gear for Christmas as he was grinning from ear to ear and kept pointing up with one finger toward his tech/monitor guy. Sooooo, the warmth is/was in the room and on the original recording. That said, I treated the original Omni vs center channels similarly as the Kung Fu EQ wise. As Gutbucket says and you confirmed, some of this is very subjective AND does point out what some tapers have told me is their reasons for wanting to stick with two channels- They can record it and process it with a lot less work than the OMT. I say OMT is worth a try in about 75% of all situations we find ourselves taping in.
Audacity still does not allow one to monitor in real time the EQ. What I do is load the working file into foobar, play with the EQ there, then emulate those settings with Audacity. As far as EQ and post processing goes, I REALLY need to invest in Izotope.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2018, 01:52:10 PM »
I understand very well the reasons for wanting to stick with two channels. Post processing is sometimes tedious for me.

I use Reaper as recommended in the forum. You can try it for free and full version is around 70 bucks. I think it is fully sufficient for OMT. The beginnings were difficult as I moved from Audacity. But now it's good. The huge advantage is that I can make any change during playback and hear it right away. The changes can be manual or preset. For example, I can set that I want to amplify the center microphone by 2db. And with one click I can turn this gain on/off during listening. I can chase any effects too, so mixing Mid / Side is then simple. If you decide to try it in the future, I like to help you with I will know.

Edit:
https://archive.org/details/twiddle2017-12-30.24akgck22ck3
https://archive.org/details/Twiddle2017-12-30.tcca.flac16
I listened to Chris's recording more. It is great recording, he captured space better than OMT. It is nice to see that you can make so good recording with Chris Church mics (ha ha I own them too).
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 03:45:10 PM by kuba e »

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2018, 05:50:10 PM »
Gave a quick listen again to both Twiddle recordings and both sound very good and well-balanced EQ-wise to me.  The bottom sounds like it's in proper proportion to the top, at least on these AT in-ear phones I'm using from this computer.

I'm quite impressed by Chris's CA-14 Twiddle recording, especially its up-front sense of presence and directness.  The instrumentation and vocals sound not-overly-distant and big.  It's very interesting exploring what produces that listening sensation in a recording, and ways of working the balance between "solid up-front presence" and "open spatial dimensionality", but that's a discussion to explore more in-depth later.   In any case, Chris' recording made with Church-Audio cards through a Church-Audio battery box is a great example of how excellent recordings can be made using non-pedigree mics in simple setups given the right situation.  And that raises a couple important points-

Low-cost mics can make great recordings in the right situation.  Most tapers know this and many have experienced it themselves.  The flip side is consistency.  Higher quality mics are capable of making good recordings more consistently.  Similarly OMT as a technique is considerably more complex than running a straight pair of mics, but one thing which makes it valuable is that it can make good recordings more consistently.   Which is really an entirely separate argument than how good it is capable of sounding in an optimal situation.  It dramatically increases the odds of success in our favor, albeit at the cost of more complexity and post work.

The other thing is that it works nicely with lower-cost mics and actually makes pedigree mics less necessary to achieve that kind of improved consistency.  It's the "whole being greater than the sum of the parts" thing again, but on the microphone side instead of the mixing side of things this time.  Done correctly, OMT can cover some of the problems commonly heard with lower-cost mics in simple 2-mic setups in less than ideal situations.  It's one reason why I was okay with putting my Microtech Gefells away and using the miniature DPAs instead, at around half the cost or less, after testing and comparing identical OMT recordings made using both (those comparisons being vital in making such decision).  Years back in the previous thread I was using low-cost miniature AT directional mics to proof-test this.  It worked very well and is partly what convinced me to eventually settle on using the miniature DPAs exclusively even in situations in which I would ordinarily pull out the lovely MGs.  I contemplated building a "budget 6-channel OMT" setup as inexpensively as possible using all miniature Church-Audio, Naiant, AT, or other inexpensive mics at that point.  How inexpensively could I actually do it and how would the recordings compare?  It would be enlightening to compare the same recording made by such a rig and my current miniature DPA-based rig.  I may still might do that at some point, parlty to further explore the idea and partly to have a second rig.  I also think it would be a cool way to promote our TS member mic builders if it works well.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2018, 05:56:23 PM »
Quote from: kuba e
I understand very well the reasons for wanting to stick with two channels. Post processing is sometimes tedious for me.
Quote from: Rocksuitcase
[This points] out what some tapers have told me is their reasons for wanting to stick with two channels- They can record it and process it with a lot less work than the OMT.

Truth!  If a taper is averse to having to do much to a recording afterwards other than tracking and FLACing, this path will not be the most appropriate one to take!  OMT requires a post-processing commitment- a curse and a blessing.  To my way of thinking, the need to do the post-work is perhaps the main reason NOT to pursue this for most folks.   Also- I've worked my rig to make setup super easy, but that's not going to be the case for most tapers.  Everything in my rig is already attached, plugged in and wired so I just extend the arms, point the mics, power-up and roll - and can do all that considerably faster than the time it takes most tapers to set-up a typical 2-mic rig.  But that's obviously not how most will do it.  For most tapers, a perhaps equal yet different burden will be dealing with the complexities of hauling the mics and gear, setting up prior to making the recording and breaking everything down afterwards.  Rocksuitcase, your OMT setups with kindms amaze me in that way.  I have to imagine it's a lot of work to setup and break them down.  Kudos to you guys for doing that, and also to you for bearing the mix-down burden afterwards!

Quote from: Rocksuitcase
Audacity still does not allow one to monitor in real time the EQ. What I do is load the working file into foobar, play with the EQ there, then emulate those settings with Audacity. As far as EQ and post processing goes, I REALLY need to invest in Izotope.
Quote from: kuba e
The huge advantage is that I can make any change during playback and hear it right away. The changes can be manual or preset. For example, I can set that I want to amplify the center microphone by 2db. And with one click I can turn this gain on/off during listening. I can chase any effects too, so mixing Mid / Side is then simple.

I have a hard time imagining trying to do this without being able to immediately hear the influence of whatever change I'm making while making it, and the ability to easily go back and forth to determine if what I'm doing is moving things in the right direction or not.  That feed-back loop is so vitally important to me.  Especially when fine-tuning things.  Also, I tend to work iteratively, going back and forth constantly between listening to specific things I'm adjusting verses listening to the whole in an more overall gestalt way, then back again.  That back and forth mental-flow would be highly compromised without immediate feedback.  Big respect for successfully working that way.  I don't own Izotope but admire it, great tools.  But far more important I think is the simple ability to have that immediate listening feedback loop in play.  My humble advice is to first change your editing software K!  I suspect you'll never look back once you do and wonder why you hadn't done so earlier.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2018, 05:59:27 PM »
Audacity still does not allow one to monitor in real time the EQ.

Try the TDR Nova plugin.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2018, 07:04:04 PM »
Quote from: Rocksuitcase
Audacity still does not allow one to monitor in real time the EQ. What I do is load the working file into foobar, play with the EQ there, then emulate those settings with Audacity. As far as EQ and post processing goes, I REALLY need to invest in Izotope.
  Big respect for successfully working that way.  I don't own Izotope but admire it, great tools.  But far more important I think is the simple ability to have that immediate listening feedback loop in play.  My humble advice is to first change your editing software K!  I suspect you'll never look back once you do and wonder why you hadn't done so earlier.
No humbly about it. I have known I should switch ever since I started working with the DR680. I think the Izotope I need is their mastering focused one. Someone offered me a cracked version, but I feel I should pay them for their work as well as any support they offer. This gets OT for this thread, but I will bring it up and ask what folks think in the appropriate thread. Thanks to you and kuba for critically listening and offering food for my thought!
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 03:02:15 PM by rocksuitcase »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2018, 12:05:21 PM »
The Pink Talking Fish set before Kung Fu OMT style: same rig as in the Kung Fu rig pics
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=184981.msg2252069#msg2252069
https://archive.org/details/ptf2017-12-16.24akgck22ck61

I did mix this one less and reduced a bit less under 400Hz than the Kung Fu- however, being the opening set, less audience in the room, not exact comparison.
These guys are fun!
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2018, 07:27:38 PM »
OK,... I hope I'm not trolling in the wrong waters here,....
This morning,... Gude Head basked in the shade of the DeccaShrub.

DeccaShrub:
DPA4060 baffled omni pair, with single CM3 @ 0º apprx. *18+inches forward of vertical mic stand stanchion
*= clamp body depth, + 1ft extension rod, + 90ºangle adaptor, + mic body length,... or perhaps as much as 18" forward of mic stand. -2ft? I didn't meaure it.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 10:19:00 PM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2018, 09:19:25 PM »
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
My out loud response was: "That is fucking sweet!"
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2018, 09:44:21 PM »
I ran a DeccaShrub like that as an experiment a long time ago; 2009?. I was just recently listening to the result, and, I was quite surprised.  The performance had a contrabass duet at the center of the stage, surrounded by the balance of the Octet players.  Even with two big basses passing solos back, and forth, at the center of the stage, the separation and isolation was quite apparent and shocking. You'd think that those two big boys playing hard at under 100hz would want to mono-blob to center, right?,.. especially with a center mic.  Nope, great imaging, and even cutting into the rear of the "U" between them.
So, I decided today was the day to break it out again, an try it.
I just tossed it into the digishizzer blender thingy, and, it came out sounding quite nice (except the constant SoCal friggin air condtioning systems,..AHHHHHHH!!! Fuck, I want to kill something). I ran the baffled omni pair at 3.5dB over the CM3-0º, until I found enough of the center player.
Now, for the next rounds, which will be next weekend.

Gude wore his new power cyborg eyes in front of the Consort of the first time. The tenor violinist, center most player, was cracking up the whole time; loved it!
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 09:46:21 PM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2018, 09:14:55 PM »
Best way to mic a goat with the winds?


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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2018, 02:20:45 PM »
I stumbled across this on LMA and thought it qualified as an oddball setup:
Quote
2 DAK 5245 Microphones and 2 Realistic PZM Mics(Mounted on 1'x 1'x 3/8" plexiglass)... Note: This was recorded with 2 sets of mics, 4 channels, mixed down to 2 channels. The mics were mounted on a stand 8' in height.
Source: https://archive.org/details/gd1993-06-13.111953.aud.dak5245-pzm.orchardpark-ny.flac16
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2018, 04:40:49 PM »
Mike- your Decca-shrub setup reminds me of what Jurg Jecklin was doing later on.  The main visual difference being he was embedding the center forward facing cardioid mic into a slot in the baffle so that it was more or less flush with the front edge of the disk.  Can't remember the other changes, other than also using a second disk baffle setup behind the main mic position with cardioids instead of omnis facing rear-wards.  He actually sent me a surround SACD with some recordings made with that when I'd asked a bunch of questions about his setups and ideas years ago, but I don't have a SACD player and so have only heard the standard 2-channel Jecklin disk versions which are on the red-book stereo layer of the SACD.

A somewhat similar 3-channel baffle setup I though alot about back in the day was using two identical baffles spaced apart by a foot or two, each with an omni on its outer-side like 1/2 of a typical Jecklin disk setup.  Then play with a center mic placed in the middle between the two baffles.  The center mic could be a 3rd omni or a forward-facing directional mic.  I suspect that would work nicely.  You might be able to run that for one of your recordings with that group but probably not for a recording with audience unless the entire setup was down low in front of the front row of seats or something.  It would be hard to see around with the double baffles.

heathen- Interesting find. I was intending to play around with mounting my omnis on small plexiglass boundary plates long ago, but it just wasn't practical, so I ended up mounting them in smaller spherical baffles instead.    That ended up being better anyway for other reasons.  Interesting effort on their part recording to tape in that era, even if the resulting recording is bright, "spitty" and has no real bottom end to it at all (bummer Phil).  IMHO they should have started with a pair of spaced omnis and built on that.

Mala-resistance- You don't trust natural wind and rain to 'dust' your goat?  Your boom operator is showing in frame!  Extra credit for the pastel windjammer, though.  I was pretty charged up to find a bunch of big-horn sheep along the Snake River while there for the eclipse this past summer.  Those Idaho big-horns are nealry the same color as the rocks and much harder to make out against the background compared to yours, even when relatively close as viewed from the raft, drinking at the water's edge.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2018, 09:43:00 PM »
This is my first try at DeccaShrub, from back in 2009/2010, and the only other time that I've run it.
I'm likely going to try it again this next weekend, a couple of times.
At any rate,... the first time, back '09/'10

In the most recent effort, I was extended further forward for this reason,... I'd put a layer of heatshrink over my 1' horizontal extension, which wasn't there in 09; for vanity, because the old stuff was looking ratty, so I went over it.. That extra layer of heat shrink kept me from passing the extension through my clamp, for a tighter adjustment.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 10:00:34 PM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2018, 09:24:12 PM »
OK,...
How about a theory, expressed, but, not yet attempted?
That of,... combining the attributes of a DeccaTree, with that of a Boundary Layer, and, with the thought of the boundary layer also being a rearwarly baffled micing? All from first row center.
My mind plays evil tricks on me at times, and this thought keeps coming back.
The DeccaBoundaryBaffledLayer Technique.

To the image,...
This church has a low divider wall in front of the first row seats.  The center is an aisle.
I was thinking about using this wooden wall, and its trim feature as both a boundary layer, and rearward baffling. And running a single mic, on a single stand, forward of the wall by the typical 3'.
The aisle is likely 4'+->5' wide; so somewhat close to the Decca spread. The boundary layer and baffling would make up for the width.
The single forward mic on a stand,... low profile.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 10:37:29 AM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2018, 10:31:26 AM »
So, maybe more detail in your proposed config?
By boundary layer, are you saying you will tape a mic to the wooden wall, or put it 3 feet out on a short stand? Which ever one you plan, are you also going to use the pictured baffle with omni's in addition to this single mic, and/or adding a single mic at each side of the center aisle using the wall as the baffle? Which mic in front of the wall- your CM3's?
 
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2018, 10:38:09 AM »
Yes, taping the 4060's to the walls, on either side as boundary layer, taped tight to the wall; and the CM3, forward from the wall, by 3' forward, on center.

You can see the outer banding trim of the wall, as something similar to a 1x4 band around what is a plywood wall. My thought, is that 90º mitered corner would be a nice place to tuck a boundary omni, as it would baffle the mic from the opposite side, providing isolation, and boundary layer effect.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 10:42:00 AM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2018, 11:36:24 AM »
Yes, taping the 4060's to the walls, on either side as boundary layer, taped tight to the wall; and the CM3, forward from the wall, by 3' forward, on center.

You can see the outer banding trim of the wall, as something similar to a 1x4 band around what is a plywood wall. My thought, is that 90º mitered corner would be a nice place to tuck a boundary omni, as it would baffle the mic from the opposite side, providing isolation, and boundary layer effect.
:hmmm:
Seems like an idea which might provide you with some nice "wide stereophonic" imaging with the outer boundary omnis. I dig the concept (and think your idea is 'sound'). Apologies for bad pun!   
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2018, 07:47:45 PM »
Ya mon, give it a go. 

I'd suggest not setting the CM3 too far forward of the boundary-mounted DPAs.  I'd probably try it with the CM3 directly in line with them unless that blocks the isle too much.  That way first arrival of direct sound from the stage in front hits all three mics simultaneously, eliminating any potential need for delays or time alignment.

I think Decca tree triangle with the center mic moved forward of the other two works because it was originally intended to be hung pretty far forward over the conductor's head, basically projecting over and into the orchestra which surrounds it on three sides.  When the group containing all sound sources of interest are predominantly forward of the recording position I think its best to keep the direct arrivals time-aligned with each other by flattening the triangle into something more like three in a line.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2018, 01:44:58 PM »
This is another version that I did, a year ago or more. I didn't call it deccashrub for this one, but I am now.
Originally, I'd intended to do a quasi-M/S, with dipole omni and center mic. But that all became more than I was wanting to do, as my ears tend to burn out, and, i move on.
So, rather than the dipole/center quasi-M/S mix, I mixed it as what you're describing in bringing the forward mic back into time alignment (but it was already done that way in mastering).

This is that rig,..., and once again, I'm flying under another Deccatree.... and this one is even equipped with a GoPro cam up near the point mic.

AND,... there is that wall I'm turning into a baffle tonight.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 01:50:15 PM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2018, 02:21:33 AM »
And, test firing complete.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2018, 07:04:53 PM »
What is it?
two recordings happening there.
1) Baffled omni pair, on center, as safety copy.
2) the experiment; two DPA4060's as spaced omni, boundary layer, rearward and side baffled omnis, and, CM3 at 0º
all time aligned.

trying to help with this image, below:
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2018, 05:55:47 AM »
2) the experiment; two DPA4060's as spaced omni, boundary layer, rearward and side baffled omnis, and, CM3 at 0º
all time aligned.
It is very interesting. Do you know how side baffles influence sound? Maybe it will be interesting to use spaced baffles for the first set and the second without.
I don't know a lot about boundary layers. It is just layman view. Is not it better to put them in the middle of the wood wall? The edge of the wall should influence the sound.

This setup reminded me what I was thinking about OMT when I tried it. Maybe better is to start with three mics. I can more concentrate how the middle mic work and train my listening skills. And then, when I get more certainty I can add fourth mic.

Best way to mic a goat with the winds?

108Ohm, if you have courage, you can record without extension rod too.

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2018, 08:39:17 AM »
I just posted the Marcus King Opener to Twiddle using Spread Omnis 108 cm with Hyper cards in XY 60 degrees in the middle:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=185099.0
https://archive.org/details/marcusking2017-12-30.akgck22ck3/marcusking2017-12-30-24akgck22ck3t10.flac

I'm not as happy with this mix as the Twiddle, but the sound was no where near as crisp and clear as the Twiddle.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 09:08:49 AM by rocksuitcase »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2018, 08:56:39 AM »
2) the experiment; two DPA4060's as spaced omni, boundary layer, rearward and side baffled omnis, and, CM3 at 0º
all time aligned.
It is very interesting. Do you know how side baffles influence sound? Maybe it will be interesting to use spaced baffles for the first set and the second without.
I don't know a lot about boundary layers. It is just layman view. Is not it better to put them in the middle of the wood wall? The edge of the wall should influence the sound.

This setup reminded me what I was thinking about OMT when I tried it. Maybe better is to start with three mics. I can more concentrate how the middle mic work and train my listening skills. And then, when I get more certainty I can add fourth mic.


Its still early on, and too soon to be too critical. But, I am very pleased with what I'm hearing.

The side baffles worked wonderfully in keeping everybody in thier place. They kept the center image more open for the center mic.  The center mic clearly displays the rear of the ensembles "U" formation, the mids. I feel this its in large part due to the side baffles.

Regarding placement on the wall,...
It is a short wall to begin with. So, it limits just what you can do as far as being too high or too low.  The floor on either side of the center aisle is ceramic tile, and highly reflective, so my thought was that being higher was going to be better than the lower area.  I decided to stay clower to the center aisle, as going wider put me closer to active players, and I didn't want to highlight anyone in this, as much as trying for the overall blending.

My thoughts are it has high potential.
If i had it to do all over again, I'd put some baffling under the piano; I'd like to have had the bass violin travel bags under the piano, for example. In one song, Bach BWV-1054 COncerto for Keyboard, the lid was opened, and that made a whole different sound in its presence.  Most of the show was played with the lid closed, which for this recording, made the piano less present.
But, the stage is small, and, they tried to bring him into the fold by pushing the piano as far into the setting as possible.  Always something.
I knew the piano was going to be bright, but, wanted to run the pattern anyway, and, just suck it up.  It turned out far better than I'd thought, with it being so close.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 08:58:55 AM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2018, 09:10:04 AM »
What is it?
two recordings happening there.
1) Baffled omni pair, on center, as safety copy.
2) the experiment; two DPA4060's as spaced omni, boundary layer, rearward and side baffled omnis, and, CM3 at 0º
all time aligned.

trying to help with this image, below:
I'm digging this approach Mike. glad it looks as if you are liking the results as well.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2018, 09:29:59 AM »
Here are a couple of samples:


Bach BWV-1054 Concerto for Keyboard w/ open lid - mp3 partial
https://soundcloud.com/user-271082364/deccaboundarybaffledlayer-sample
Genesis - Its Gonna Be Better - mp3 partial
https://soundcloud.com/user-271082364/deccaboundarybaffledlayer-sample2

The piano is bright!  I went into this knowing that was going to be a possible problem.  It worked out better than I thought, and I'm quite happy wit the result; but, the piano is a bit bright due to its proximity.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 11:31:23 AM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #45 on: January 21, 2018, 10:41:39 AM »
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | AT AE5100s | AT853s (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3s | CA-14 omnis | Studio Projects CS5
Pre: CA9200
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #46 on: January 21, 2018, 01:54:58 PM »
Here are a couple of samples:


Bach BWV-1054 Concerto for Keyboard w/ open lid - mp3 partial
https://soundcloud.com/user-271082364/deccaboundarybaffledlayer-sample
Genesis - Its Gonna Be Better - mp3 partial
https://soundcloud.com/user-271082364/deccaboundarybaffledlayer-sample2

The piano is bright!  I went into this knowing that was going to be a possible problem.  It worked out better than I thought, and I'm quite happy wit the result; but, the piano is a bit bright due to its proximity.
I listened to sample1 about 4 hours ago, now it seems sample 2 has been pulled. Hard to know your "bright" without a reference to your "dark" piano-wise, BUT I thin it sounds good overall tonally, separation of individual instrumentation seems right.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #47 on: January 21, 2018, 02:01:59 PM »
I did a different sample of the same track on sample.2, and pulled the original. That should be a good link to the new sample, though.
The first sample built too slowly for a partial sample, so I grabbed a different take.

Bright,... maybe I should have said strong presence? You will not be left for want of piano.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #48 on: January 21, 2018, 03:40:02 PM »
I did a different sample of the same track on sample.2, and pulled the original. That should be a good link to the new sample, though.
The first sample built too slowly for a partial sample, so I grabbed a different take.

Bright,... maybe I should have said strong presence? You will not be left for want of piano.
Yes, there IS piano!  :clapping:
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #49 on: January 21, 2018, 11:41:35 PM »
And thats the softer, slower, Adagio portion of the concerto.
The rehearsal of the concerto had the lid closed.  Then, surprise, surprise,.. the show had the lid open for the concerto, and closed for the balance of the show, softening it considerably.

Today,... lid open for the whole show, with the open lid facing the audience.
I bagged the first row, right side seat, and we stored all of our gear on the left first row seat, as the piano was so close to that row, anyone sitting there woud have had there face stuffed full of piano.
So, I utilized the hardwood church pews as the boundary layer, rearward baffle, and i taped the foam rem pieces to the sides of the pews as side baffling.
It record, and eft the first row seats to a really nice couple that comes to the shows (all of them), and I went and sat in the rear side.

I somehow managed to run two complete sets of blank files with Gude and the R09HR. They soundchecked out just fine; I hit record, saw levels, and time rolling on record; walked away. I get home to find two 41 minute blank stereo files that weighed in about 2gb of blankness, totally flat-lined. Gremlins.

And,... more time logged in the shade of another D'Tree.

Conclusion of test firing:
Total potential for exploration.  I would very much like to do this again without the piano.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 02:26:33 PM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #50 on: January 22, 2018, 12:08:46 AM »
OK,... I've worked with the gal that is the furthest to the left in the image above, #4441, for a couple of years now. Her name is Sarah O'Brien.
We've gotten along wonderfully. Always a really nice smile, and kind words.
I found out friday that she was the lead cellist for Yanni for 23 years, and leader of his orchestra.
They are together in this video segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7ag2S7iLxk
I've always been amazed at her playing, but, never knew the background.
So, just today, I was asking her about that, and she said that she got her "in" with the Consort with Beth Folsom, the soprano violin player, who, was also with Yanni for a long long time.
I had no idea that I was so close to new ageyness.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #51 on: January 22, 2018, 03:15:09 PM »
Those samples sound quite good to me Mike.  I like the hefty sense of spatial width from the wide omnis as well as the detailed yet flattering perspective on the ensemble it provides.  Good "division of labor" amongst the three mics, avoiding phase interaction conflicts in the 2-channel mix-down.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #52 on: February 01, 2018, 04:19:01 PM »
Came across an AES paper which explores a setup quite similar to OMT in a number of ways.  I just started reading it at lunch today so I won't speculate too much or offer my opinion until I have a chance to fully digest it.  However, I wanted to share the link here as there are some obvious parallels with what I'm doing.  Generally, the idea of using spaced arrangements consisting of multiple coincident pairs to facilitate manipulation of the recording afterwards. More specifically, I immediately noticed similarities to my  idea of turning the 6-ch OMT side facing supercardioids into coincident Mid/Side arrangements as illustrated in the advanced section of the OMT booklet - modifications I want to experiment with next, using 8 channels total.  More on this later..

Technical content warning- This is AES paper type reading dealing with hall acoustics, surround recording and listening psychoacoustics.  No math, but some non-superficial technical acoustics type stuff.

It can be viewed or downloaded at the site below, which is where I found it upon browsing other papers from the University of Huddersfield Repository.  That page states:

"Download PDF:
Sorry, we are unable to provide the full text but you may find it at the following location(s):"

The links which follow are dead ends, however the full paper may be either viewed directly or downloaded as a PDF from the preview window found a bit further down around mid-page.

A New Multichannel Microphone Technique for Effective Perspective Control (by Hyunkook Lee)
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2018, 10:08:47 PM »

Two channel stereo - Baffled Boundary Layer
result:
Quote from: cello player
Mike...the recording sounds amazing!!! Thank you so so much!!! I can't thank you enough...I was supposed to be practicing other music today, but I've just been sitting and listening to the recording. The balance is fantastic and the sound quality is wonderful!!! Others have recorded us in the past, but I want you to know that your recording is the best we have ever had.

referencing the DPA4060 pair taped to the brick wall, on either side of the post, below; Baffled Boundary Layer
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 09:44:48 AM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2018, 11:28:51 AM »
Right on. 

Liking how you used the column as a baffle between the boundary mounted 4060s taped to the wall.  That seems to me an excellent setup for that room.  If you are able to, it would be interesting to do the same using the opposing wall and center column behind the stage, high enough over the piano that you have a more-or-less direct line of sight to the strings.  You should be able to do that without much if any visual impact at all as long as you can set it up early so as to be out of the way of the performers.  That would get improved proximity to the sources and push the audience further back in the auditory perspective.  Only one way to know if that really works better or not.

Feels pretty good to get that kind of feedback from the musicians, no?
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2018, 01:19:37 PM »
Received special permission to record at Snarky Puppy's Ground Up festival last weekend, upon promising to keep the recordings private and provide them to the music label for audience-reaction and ambience in their potential live multitrack releases.  This is a fantastic musician-centric festival held in a small a park along the beach, quite intimate as it is capped at 2000 attendees per day.  Outstanding talent, heart and mindset by all involved- the musicians, the audio support crew, the festival organizers and staff and the attendees.  Got in with their recording engineer to provide him my files and hear his.  They were multitracking all performances and had up a pair of spaced omnis at the soundboards of both stages.  I moved my 6ch OMT rig back and forth between the two stages.

A few photos..  here's my setup at the smaller stage-

Last photo is the kicked-back hammock perspective of the rig and stage.  A nice spot to chill while keeping an eye on things.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 01:29:58 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2018, 01:27:22 PM »
A few of my setup at the main bandshell stage-

First photo is of my rig as viewed from below. Like at the other stage, the recording engineers spaced omnis are visible as well (Earthworks employed at this stage).
Second is from the recording position (Wood Brothers)
Third and fourth are is from the recording position (Snarky Puppy)
Last is the view out the window looking West from Miami Beach across Biscayne Bay towards the Miami skyline from the top floor of the hotel hosting the last-night shows.  Posting this one simply because I found it a cool photo with the reflected ballroom lights interposed against the sky.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 01:32:49 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2018, 01:29:18 PM »
Mike- +T great use of the wall/post. So awesome to get feedback like that!

Gut, great photos, I dig the one straight up  at the blue FL sky! (only a  bit upstate NY jealous!)
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #58 on: March 13, 2018, 08:32:07 AM »
People might want to check out this, done with a 4 channel OMT rig. 60cm spaced omnis, with a hyper as the mid in a m/s pair mixed mostly to mid:

16bit: http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=598540
24bit: http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=598541

Mike Gordon, Scott Murwaski, Robert Walter, John Kimock, Craig Myers

March 10, 2018
Brookln Steel, New York, NY

Location: SBD Cage, just R of Center
Source: Schoeps mk3 (60cm AB) + Schoeps mk41v/mk8 (m/s)> Nbob actives> Sound Devices mixpre6 (channels 1-4 @ 24bit 48 kHz)
Transfer: Mixpre6> Macbook Pro (via usb-c)> Reaper (DSP)> Sound Studio (Fades & Tracking)> xACT (Tagging and Flacing)
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk4v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Naiant PFA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10
Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> Adcom SLC 505> Marantz Ma500 (x2)> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-400
Office Playback: Grace m903> AKG k701

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #59 on: March 13, 2018, 10:00:25 AM »
Thanks Noah.  What are your thoughts about it?

BTW folks, as a point of comparison, Noah has also made available his 2-channel mk4 recording from the same show-

mk4v (25cm @ 70 degrees) :
16bit: http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=598538
24bit: http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=598538
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2018, 01:15:51 PM »
Thanks Noah.  What are your thoughts about it?

I think it worked well.

My only real issue is the large bar needed for appropriate spacing. It requires a heavier larger stand.

On Saturday night, I probably had a chance to go FOB, but turned it down because I was committed to the big stand.

Sunday night in Albany, where I was poised for FOB, I ran three pairs, all of which sound great. but there was no way I could have used the big omni bar there.
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk4v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2018, 03:15:09 PM »
Thanks and agreed- I see the need to space the omnis sufficiently as the most imposing setup constraint for OMT, assuming one is already setup to run more than 2 channels.  And it doesn't help that it seems the more spacing one can get between the omnis the better the result, at least as a general trend with this.

Both of these recordings sound good to me. I did EQ'd each separately before making a comparison (and then compared the two both with and without EQ), and found it interesting that I came up with a very similar although slightly different curve for each.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #62 on: March 28, 2018, 01:48:31 PM »
Well, sometimes you find things when you least expect to.
Objective of the morning: Find/learn about a Pintle tow hitch system.
Found:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/TowSmart-Solo-Hitch-Alignment-System-1280/206798835


Telescoping, extends from 10.5" to 43" each w/ hardish foam ball ends with *2.5" balls. Heavy magnetic bases.

*measured this morning.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 09:44:55 AM by Moke »
Sent From My Craftsman Garage Door Opener

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #63 on: March 28, 2018, 02:32:51 PM »
Do I ever leave anything alone?
Only in the bag, on the way home...

Found out:
Magnets just push out of the channels. This exposed mounting scheme of a pop rivet into the body of the tubing.
Determined: Childs play to mod further.
Pop Rivets will be removed, and machine screw replacements. At the magnet channel, matching all-thread connector female ferrules will be attached so that the magnetic bases can be utilized, or, the machine screws can be used to connect the two spreaders into a single unit.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 07:15:20 PM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #64 on: March 28, 2018, 03:57:45 PM »
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=185887.0
Rig pics of recent 2 day festival where we did two different OMT variants.
Friday variant was: Friday - AKGck22 omni spread 108 cm > Grace V2@+25dB 2 x AKGck3 XY 60' (PAS) in center >> Tascam DR680
The SAT variant:                  AKGck22 omnis about 15 feet apart >Grace V2; 2 x ck3' hypers crossed 60' (PAS) in center > Grace V3
Approximate locations are same center location; Friday we had the Manfrotto triple bar limitation of about 108cm spread; Saturday we were able to spread them using three stands.

In our opinions this wide spread resulted in a kick ass recording.
More will be added in here later to support the discussion. LMA links:
https://archive.org/details/jgb2018-03-24.akgck3_ck22                  SAT
https://archive.org/details/ggw2018-03-23.akgck3_ck22                 FRI

What I noticed between the two days differing setups is the wide spread omnis certainly have more "uniqueness" to the signal with very little correlation between the two channels. Unfortunately what we did is nowhere near scientific; each day had different acts, and although the same PA was used, on Saturday the JGB FOH was doing SIM measurements using a measurement mic close slightly above the floor area thus IMO the overall sound quality was 15-20% "Better" than Friday.
Another notable process: we had the center pair of hypers crossed PAS which essentially was about 60' maybe closer to 50' (as recommended by GB)
edited to answer GB's questions below
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 06:14:31 PM by rocksuitcase »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #65 on: March 29, 2018, 04:31:15 PM »
For anyone lurking, or wondering what the OMT hubbub is all about,  Rocksuitcase and Kindms's recording of JGB with Melvin Seals last Sat is an excellent example of what this technique is capable of, and is in my opinion indeed quite kickass!  Its comparatively easier to make a recording of this quality from well FOB in the sweet spot, but not so easy from 50' back near the back of the room in an indoor hall.

Link to that recording (again)- https://archive.org/details/jgb2018-03-24.akgck3_ck22

Quote
What I noticed between the two days differing setups is the wide spread omnis certainly have more "uniqueness" to the signal with very little correlation between the two channels.

Yes, exactly.  Low correlation between the wide omnis providing the big open ambience, fat bottom, and a nicely diffuse representation of the audience + High correlation between the coincident PAS hyper center pair providing clear focus and imaging of the direct sound from the PA and stage.. with the right amount of blend between the them.  Two complementary pieces of the puzzle which go hand in hand and work especially well in combination partly because they are sufficiently different enough from each other.  This is the core essence from which the technique is constructed - each part contributes something different, and no part works optimally on its own without the other (which is the necessary leap of faith in really taking the technique to the next level and making the most of it), so that in combination the sum of the separate elements produces something greater than any of the individual parts.

That leap of faith thing is the tough part, yet is essential to really wring the most from OMT.  It's much more comfortable to build upon 2-channel stereo techniques we've a preference for from personal experience and general practice, which are certainly true for for 2-channel recording in general (things like near-spaced stereo pairs in the center, wider X/Y angles in the center, pointing all the mics toward the stage, not overly-wide omni spreads, etc).   It's really ingrained in us.  I still find myself convincing myself to push further outside the envelope of "known good" stereo practice sometimes with regards to advancing the technique further in pursuit of the sound, man, the sound!


I gave a quick listen to the Friday GGW for comparison, and yes the difference in sound quality in PA optimization is apparent.  I can mentally "listen around" that when listening for other attributes of the recording which correspond the differences in your recording setup over the two days and I suspect others reading this can mentally do the same, as long as I know what variables didn't change.  With that in mind, can you clarify a bit on what was different other than the much wider omni spacing (15' verses 42"), the bands themselves, and the PA optimization?

Seems you were quite close to the same recording location both days.
Center X/Y pair in PAS both days? (same approximate 50 degree angle between mics to PAS both days or are you saying you made it a bit tighter on Saturday than on Friday?)
^Just want to make sure before I draw conclusions.

BTW for folks reading, there is more discussion on these two recordings and photos of the setups used in this alternate thread- http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=185887.msg2259795#msg2259795 And here's 'Suitcase's photo from that thread showing the 15' split omnis + PAS hyper center pair setup used to make this recording-

« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 04:56:12 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #66 on: March 29, 2018, 04:47:45 PM »
The Pintle tow hitch system Moke found as an alternate and more heavy-duty telescopic mic bar for spacing the omnis looks very promising, and Moke is already made rapid progress in transforming into a working telescopic mic bar.  To bring folks reading this OMT thread up to speed, we've posted more discussion on that in another thread specifically adressing bars for spacing 4060s and the use of various shapped modifier attachements for them- http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=185872.msg2259701#msg2259701  I won't duplicate that info here at this point since whats' been posted thus far is pretty much covered in the original OMT thread, other than linking a couple photos of his posted over there showing what he's done and a comparison with TV antenna arms.  Looks significantly beefier and capable of supporting mics larger than flyweight miniature omnis.

 
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #67 on: March 29, 2018, 06:22:41 PM »
For anyone lurking, or wondering what the OMT hubbub is all about,  Rocksuitcase and Kindms's recording of JGB with Melvin Seals last Sat is an excellent example of what this technique is capable of, and is in my opinion indeed quite kickass!

I gave a quick listen to the Friday GGW for comparison, and yes the difference in sound quality in PA optimization is apparent.  I can mentally "listen around" that when listening for other attributes of the recording which correspond the differences in your recording setup over the two days and I suspect others reading this can mentally do the same, as long as I know what variables didn't change.  With that in mind, can you clarify a bit on what was different other than the much wider omni spacing (15' verses 42"), the bands themselves, and the PA optimization?

Seems you were quite close to the same recording location both days.
Center X/Y pair in PAS both days? (same approximate 50 degree angle between mics to PAS both days or are you saying you made it a bit tighter on Saturday than on Friday?)
^Just want to make sure before I draw conclusions.
Answers to questions in edited clarified post above yours! Thanks so much for your inspiration- results such as these make it all worth learning and doing!
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #68 on: March 29, 2018, 07:38:34 PM »
For anyone lurking, or wondering what the OMT hubbub is all about,  Rocksuitcase and Kindms's recording of JGB with Melvin Seals last Sat is an excellent example of what this technique is capable of, and is in my opinion indeed quite kickass!  Its comparatively easier to make a recording of this quality from well FOB in the sweet spot, but not so easy from 50' back near the back of the room in an indoor hall.

Link to that recording (again)- https://archive.org/details/jgb2018-03-24.akgck3_ck22

Quote
What I noticed between the two days differing setups is the wide spread omnis certainly have more "uniqueness" to the signal with very little correlation between the two channels.

Yes, exactly.  Low correlation between the wide omnis providing the big open ambience, fat bottom, and a nicely diffuse representation of the audience + High correlation between the coincident PAS hyper center pair providing clear focus and imaging of the direct sound from the PA and stage.. with the right amount of blend between the them.  Two complementary pieces of the puzzle which go hand in hand and work especially well in combination partly because they are sufficiently different enough from each other.  This is the core essence from which the technique is constructed - each part contributes something different, and no part works optimally on its own without the other (which is the necessary leap of faith in really taking the technique to the next level and making the most of it), so that in combination the sum of the separate elements produces something greater than any of the individual parts.

That leap of faith thing is the tough part, yet is essential to really wring the most from OMT.  It's much more comfortable to build upon 2-channel stereo techniques we've a preference for from personal experience and general practice, which are certainly true for for 2-channel recording in general (things like near-spaced stereo pairs in the center, wider X/Y angles in the center, pointing all the mics toward the stage, not overly-wide omni spreads, etc).   It's really ingrained in us.  I still find myself convincing myself to push further outside the envelope of "known good" stereo practice sometimes with regards to advancing the technique further in pursuit of the sound, man, the sound!


I gave a quick listen to the Friday GGW for comparison, and yes the difference in sound quality in PA optimization is apparent.  I can mentally "listen around" that when listening for other attributes of the recording which correspond the differences in your recording setup over the two days and I suspect others reading this can mentally do the same, as long as I know what variables didn't change.  With that in mind, can you clarify a bit on what was different other than the much wider omni spacing (15' verses 42"), the bands themselves, and the PA optimization?

Seems you were quite close to the same recording location both days.
Center X/Y pair in PAS both days? (same approximate 50 degree angle between mics to PAS both days or are you saying you made it a bit tighter on Saturday than on Friday?)
^Just want to make sure before I draw conclusions.

BTW for folks reading, there is more discussion on these two recordings and photos of the setups used in this alternate thread- http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=185887.msg2259795#msg2259795 And here's 'Suitcase's photo from that thread showing the 15' split omnis + PAS hyper center pair setup used to make this recording-



Hey thanks for the kind words. Always nice when it turns out well

considering we had all sorts of real and imagined issues  :o its amazing the v2 & v3 stayed powered on and we didnt create a problem

was really fun being able to contribute the 414s to the stream as well. we got to demo the mix during the JGB soundcheck. Matt said he had always wanted to mic the audience that way but never had the time / chance to do it

Also have to give a shout out to math and rocksuitcase. One of those classic moments. He walks off the distance from the video FOH to stage. yells back to set the delay 40ms, then says make 35ms. It was dead on
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #69 on: March 30, 2018, 05:20:36 PM »
another OMT goodie:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=185913.0
Kung Fu
The OMT setup:
Source: AKG ck3 (60deg) >Tascam DR680(24/48) + AKG ck22 split 42" (108cm) >V2 >Tascam DR680(24/48)
music IS love

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #70 on: April 02, 2018, 01:13:41 PM »
Saturday night I broke out the TV antennas and ran some split omnis.  Specifically, I had a pair of AT4031s in the center in DIN config.  Flanking those were a pair of CA14 omnis, 70 inches apart, oriented 180 degrees from each other.  I've only listened to snippets of the recording, but I am very surprised at how decent the omnis sound on their own (this was indoors, by the way).  I hope to have something posted this week, but in the meantime I can say that it was a lot of fun to fly some mics at such a wide spacing.
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | AT AE5100s | AT853s (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3s | CA-14 omnis | Studio Projects CS5
Pre: CA9200
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #71 on: April 04, 2018, 09:47:11 AM »
Here's my recording from 3/31 with the split omnis and AT4031 mix: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=185963.0

I really like the low end that the omnis add, and was initially concerned about them adding too much crowd noise.  Then I listened to just the ATs and, unfortunately, the crowd was just really loud that night...can't blame the omnis.  As I mentioned before, though, I was really impressed with the omnis by themselves.  I wonder if Chris adds a bit of a high end boost to his omnis since they'll generally be used far from the source in our concert recording situations (that's a topic for another thread, though).
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | AT AE5100s | AT853s (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3s | CA-14 omnis | Studio Projects CS5
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #72 on: April 04, 2018, 12:55:21 PM »
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  downloading now. I love any Medeski project. I'll let you know my opinion on the recording. Thanks for sharing!

Wow, half way through- I like it. Very "wide" and spacious. I'm at work on small speakers but the AUD hasn't gotten in the way yet. Scofield has a very airy guitar tone which you captured pretty well here.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 03:24:01 PM by rocksuitcase »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #73 on: April 04, 2018, 12:59:29 PM »
I'll let you know my opinion on the recording.
Looking forward to it.  I still have a lot to learn.
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | AT AE5100s | AT853s (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3s | CA-14 omnis | Studio Projects CS5
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #74 on: April 04, 2018, 02:59:13 PM »
Heathen, any possibility of posting short (say minute long or so) samples of the omnis and cards on their own prior to mixing?  No worries if that's too much hassle.
MP3's uploaded directly to the thread would be perfectly fine.  The size limitation on each file in that case is 750KB.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #75 on: April 04, 2018, 03:15:24 PM »
Heathen, any possibility of posting short (say minute long or so) samples of the omnis and cards on their own prior to mixing?  No worries if that's too much hassle.
MP3's uploaded directly to the thread would be perfectly fine.  The size limitation on each file in that case is 750KB.
No problem at all...I'll try to remember to do it tonight.
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | AT AE5100s | AT853s (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3s | CA-14 omnis | Studio Projects CS5
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #76 on: April 04, 2018, 06:34:49 PM »
Here's a clip of the raw CA14 and AT4031 files: https://we.tl/GGNxlvRxY6

All I did to these was to make each into a stereo file (you can split them back up into individual channels in you DAW, of course) and trim them down to the short clip size (I tried to find a passage that has loud and quiet parts).  They're both of the exact same passage of music.  Link should be good for seven days.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #77 on: April 04, 2018, 07:10:07 PM »
heathen. grooving the MSMW.

Curious about your thoughts as well as others. rocksuitcase and i were discussing this the other day. You mentioned talkers etc. We are sort of thinking that the OMT has a tendency to mitigate the crowd to some extent. we were thinking perhaps as its more "spread out"  vs. a more direct in a 2 channel scenario.

curious what you guys think about that

Im only about 15 minutes in on the recording and so far the crowd is there but I haven't found it distracting etc
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #78 on: April 04, 2018, 08:37:03 PM »
heathen. grooving the MSMW.

Curious about your thoughts as well as others. rocksuitcase and i were discussing this the other day. You mentioned talkers etc. We are sort of thinking that the OMT has a tendency to mitigate the crowd to some extent. we were thinking perhaps as its more "spread out"  vs. a more direct in a 2 channel scenario.

curious what you guys think about that

Im only about 15 minutes in on the recording and so far the crowd is there but I haven't found it distracting etc
This is one of Greisenger's concepts which informs the OMT theory: decorrellation- the omnis are sufficiently spaced and separated from the center microphone(s), the more "unique" each signal is, time of arrival and pressure difference wise, the more decorrellated the signals are said to be. This is one reason why chatter seems less annoying when doing a 3 or more channel OMT using spaced omnis as the anchor. Correct my cite GB if wrong    ;)
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #79 on: April 04, 2018, 08:57:50 PM »
Forgive me for what may be stupid questions, but doesn't OMT still pick up the general din of the room?  Any particular yell or the like may be decorrollated, but that background constant level of noise will remain right?
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #80 on: April 04, 2018, 09:16:08 PM »
Forgive me for what may be stupid questions, but doesn't OMT still pick up the general din of the room?  Any particular yell or the like may be decorrollated, but that background constant level of noise will remain right?
Oh yeah, same as every/any mic. There is always the room chatter these days, I feel for you there, BUT, your recording is very good.
re decorrelation: I think what I hear is when I know a person was coughing or yelling to one side (i.e. I'm sitting next to them), it seems that cough or yell isn't as present on the recording. Of course, anything loud near any mic will be in the mix at one level or another.
music IS love

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #81 on: April 05, 2018, 12:08:45 PM »
You've got it.  The audience sounds are still there and are not reduced in level, but the way in which that is portrayed and perceived during playback is different.  The audience sound pickup is directly related to the how room ambience is picked up and portrayed - both are more-diffuse, and open and "out there", perceptually separated to some degree from the music of interest which is more highly focused in the center front quadrant.  The wide omni spacing does this in an increasing way for direct sound which arrives further off the central axis and especially so for the diffuse sound which is effectively arriving from all directions (in this case that diffuse audience sound component is more murmur and general din, as opposed to any specifically identifiable audience sounds).

Acually, due to the omnis we're most likely picking up more audience and room sound from all directions than we would using a single pair of directional mics, yet that content (at least the room sound and the desirable audience reaction) is less in conflict with the music because of the OMT arrangement because it picks up the direct sound and the room/audience sound in different ways before we combine them.  Of course there remains a lot of overlap between them, and that's a good thing.  But the differentiation is important and useful.

To take best advantage of that differentiation, it helps to keep the central mic pair as focused on the direct sound pickup from stage and PA as possible, with the omnis less intentionally focused on that and more oriented on the diffuse sound arriving from all directions.  So more-directional PAS center pairs are helpful for maximizing direct sound pickup from stage and PA, and a coincident arrangement of the center pair is helpful in producing a tighter and highly-correlated type of stereo for that direct sound component (contrasting against the more-decorrelated and diffuse omni pickup of room/audience).  Omnis which don't especially favor the forward direction are helpful, achieved by using miniature omnis which have less directionality due to their small size, or omnis with diffuse grids like the AKGs rocksuitcase and kindms are using, or pointing more directional omnis sideways or backwards.  And spacing the omnis as far as practical helps decorrelate the diffuse pickup to a lower frequency, narrows the SRA angle of the omnis, meaning more of the off-axis audience direct sound pickup by them will image far-left or far-right leaving room for the center pair stereo stuff in the middle.

The other thing which spacing the omnis sufficiently helps with is audience sounds close by the recording position.  Close sources will tend to be considerably louder in one omni than the other and that will cause them to image further to one side or the other, leaving more perceptual separation between that and the music which is imaging more tightly in the center, allowing it to be more easily perceptually ignored even though its still there (cocktail party effect).  Again, the setup is actually more sensitive to close audience sounds due to the omnis, but the arrangement helps to make that seem less in conflict with the music.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #82 on: April 05, 2018, 01:04:17 PM »
Heathen, thanks for the MSMW.  Sounds good (dig those guys).  And very cool that you were able to manage a 7' spacing on the omnis.

Here's a clip of the raw CA14 and AT4031 files: https://we.tl/GGNxlvRxY6

Thanks for that.  It's helpful to hear each part in isolation.  Here's something which I think will make things even better.

Are you one who does any EQ?  No problem if not.  This is a big topic in general, and even more so with regards to the potential application to OMT where each part can be EQ'd separately and/or the resulting combination can be EQ'd as well.  In general, its a good approach to EQ the center pair and omni pair separately to each sound as good as possible on their own prior to combining them.

But there is an important exception to that, which can be useful to do even if you don't really care to make the effort to EQ the two parts separately.   It's this- Often it helps to clean the sound up greatly by reducing the low frequency content of the center pair.  Let the omnis provide the majority of the low and upper bass content.  Its okay, even good, if the center pair is more-focused on the midrange (especially) and high frequency content.  Directional mics with weak bass response (like those more intended for speech pickup) can actually work well as center pair because of this, since their response is sort of pre-EQ'd that way already and fits the roll.  Otherwise it helps to use a gentle roll off from the below the upper mids to reduce any excess "thickness" and boom in the center pair.  And although I've not tried it, a high pass filter could work for this, especially if you can set the slope to first-order (-6dB per octave).

This represents another aspect of the "division of labor" sort of thing described in the previous post, letting the omnis do their thing down low without conflict.

And a midrange focus in the center pair plays nicely against the tendency of omnis to be less forward in that range.  Again, the mic patterns used sort of naturally do this for you, but you can emphasize the trend somewhat with EQ if you want to play with it, just keep the difference moderate.

At higher frequencies I find the interaction between the omnis and center pair to be productive.  No need to reduce one to let the other "breathe" sufficiently.  Probably partly because the signals are sufficiently decorrelated at high frequencies (short-wavelengths) so the content is different enough, and partly due to how we perceive phase differently at high frequencies, where  randomized phase tends to sound "airy" and "open".



TLDR- reduce any tendency toward "mud" or excess "thickness" in the center pair via mic selection or EQ, even erring toward what would be an "over-thin" bass-weak sound when the center pair is listened to in isolation.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #83 on: April 05, 2018, 01:25:45 PM »
I'm not sure if you just made a typo, but my omni  spacing was 70 inches.

As for the EQ, I have EQ'd some recordings in the past but I still don't feel very comfortable with it.  While I'm not opposed to messing with it more and trying to get better, I'm leaning more towards mics that sound the way I like without need for EQ (hence my love of the AT4031...maybe not for everyone, but to me they sound damn near perfect).

If you tinker with that clip to the point you get something that sounds good, I'd love to hear what you come up with (and perhaps more importantly, how you got there).

I'll admit that for this show I was thinking of the AT pair as my primary focus, and OMT was a secondary thought.  That's why the ATs were DIN...if I were primarily focused on OMT then it seems from the recent comments that having the ATs PAS or XY would have been better.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #84 on: April 05, 2018, 01:26:05 PM »
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Heathen- I find that unless conditions are ideal, often I like to EQ the omni channel usually taking out high end above 3kHz gradually to 20kHz (always depends on source material)
Then import the middle channels, and typically do not need to EQ our AKG ck61ULS or ck3's. but if I do I do it separately from the Omnis as GB mentions. THEN
I level the two stereo sources against each other, typically boosting the center 2-4 dB over the omnis, but it can go the other way as well. (often coming up with different rations of Omni to center even between sets)
THEN export to two tracks THEN re-level or do a light overall EQ if something seems it needs shaping. ( I like to NOT do EQ at this stage if it all sounds right)

IMO, the complete approach to OMT involves knowing there WILL be post processing involved and much more than with 2 channel recordings. For me, after all the years of running co-incident patterns this last 3 years has been much more FUN doing the various things involved to go multi-channel both equipment wise and in my interactions with FOH and musicians. I have had several musicians, producer types, ask about the mic technique and in fact have had a few of them reach out after the event to ask for their raw files. (which I eagerly provide)

I will post a wetransfer just for you of one of my best takes like this using 4 channel OMT plus 2 ch SBD. The band isn't "taper friendly" so it will be on the DL via PM to you.
Quote
I'll admit that for this show I was thinking of the AT pair as my primary focus, and OMT was a secondary thought.  That's why the ATs were DIN...if I were primarily focused on OMT then it seems from the recent comments that having the ATs PAS or XY would have been better.
If this is the case, then your recording is all that much "better". I hear a nice wide soundstage plus a relatively centered overall image.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 01:28:52 PM by rocksuitcase »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #85 on: April 05, 2018, 01:29:29 PM »
Thanks for the input, and for sharing the file!
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #86 on: April 05, 2018, 04:25:41 PM »
My mistake, I meant to say 70 inches not 7 feet, yet the point stands - that's more spacing than most tapers are able manage from a single stand, and is in the enough for "good OMT spacing" IME.

No worries in considering your DIN pair primary, and that's the way I'd approach it if I was just getting into OMT.  Best to start from what you are comfortable with and what has worked well for you in the past, using that as a baseline of comparison for whatever changes you end up making, before changing things up too much.

Conceptually I work the opposite way, starting with the omnis alone and getting them balanced and sounding good by themselves, then embellishing on that with the other channels I have available.  I like starting from a well balanced, natural ambient sound, then adding presence, focus, imaging and depth through the addition of the center mic(s).  Either approach can work, this just works best for me, partly because I began taping with spaced omnis rather than near-spaced pairs so this approach comes naturally to me.  But I also think it's helpful to build the mix this way from the bottom up (from the ambience inwards).  And when the omnis are considered the primary pair, that sort of opens things up to more non-mainstream options for what one might do with the "additional" center mics in trying various things over time.

The omnis sound pretty good alone, don't they?  I bet a lot of tapers may be surprised by that.  Especially since they are facing to the sides and not forward.



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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #87 on: April 05, 2018, 04:37:40 PM »
Don't worry about all this EQ stuff.  But do listen to each pair on its own, and I encourage you to listen carefully to identify the frequency balance thing I'm talking about in the center channel or center pair.  Not just with respect to this recording, but in general when using this technique.  Listen for any excessive energy or resonance in the lower mids and bass in the center pair which may tend to cloud the clarity of the mids in any way.  It also helps to compare what you hear in that below-mid frequency region with what the omnis are providing.

One way to test out this center pair frequency shaping aspect for yourself without using any EQ afterwards is to try switching in the low-cut on the mic bodies (if they have them) or on the recorder for the center pair, although that does sort of commit you to mixing with the omnis instead of keeping a fully independent center pair.  Besides making everything clearer in general and improving imaging, this can also allow you to use somewhat more center-pair level in the mix if appropriate, without cluttering things up.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #88 on: April 05, 2018, 04:40:36 PM »
The omnis sound pretty good alone, don't they?  I bet a lot of tapers may be surprised by that.  Especially since they are facing to the sides and not forward.

Yes, I think I've commented before that I was surprised at how good the omnis sound by themselves since this was indoors.  I think I also made an off-hand comment wondering if Chris Church tunes his omnis for being used farther from a sound source, since most tapers are doing that (would that be diffuse field?  I can't keep it straight).  If that's the case, I would guess that's part of why they sound so good.

If nothing else, this is definitely going to make me more inclined to try this sort of thing in the future, even indoors.  I've got some indoor shows coming up in the next few months where I might be able to try more OMT stuff (of course, I've also got some indoor shows were the spacing of my mics will be limited to the dimensions of my stupid head  >:D ).  I'm already trying to think of ways I could mount these omnis at Red Rocks this summer.  (Summer?  Sheeeeeeit...I'm going to start seeing show there in a month!)

I think I'll also play with this recording a bit more, taking your approach of starting with the omnis.  That seems to be consistent with rocksuitcase's approach of EQ'ing his omnis first.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #89 on: April 05, 2018, 05:26:50 PM »
I find that unless conditions are ideal, often I like to EQ the omni channel usually taking out high end above 3kHz gradually to 20kHz (always depends on source material)

I don't mean to turn this into too much of a discussion on tweaking EQ (keeping Heathen in mind at this point, but have been meaning to explore OMT EQ in depth, so definitely later).  And some of the difference in approach may be a result of the different omnis we are using.  But as a general trend, I don't like throwing away that high frequency omni ambience, for me much magic lies there.  It can open up the recording, and also provide sufficient high frequency energy in that region when that's needed without becoming strident, as can sometimes be the case when trying to add sufficient energy there by boosting that region in the center pair.  Again in general, I find a sort of loudness-curve shaped response tends to work well for the omnis (sort of the classic lopsided smile-shaped EQ, mostly emphasising the bottom, less mids, yet rising at the very top providing sufficient high frequency "air" so it doesn't sound dull or muffled, maybe somewhat distant but still retaining a nice live "sparkle" and naturalness.   And that loudness-curve trend thing sort of makes sense when you consider the lower level of the ambient sounds compared to the direct sound.

As for a generalization on EQing the center pair, it's mostly that smooth reduction in low frequency content as mentioned for less competition with the omnis down there.  If I want more clarity or presence (SBD like) I'll work the mid range and push up between 700 and 3kHz in the center mic or pair, which acts somewhat like a zoom control for vocals.  The part I find curious but seems to work well for blending the center seamlessly and allowing more center energy without the center over dominating the mix is a cut centered somewhere around 7-10kHz or there about. Keeps the center from getting "shouty" and calling attention to itself.  Perceptual HTRF stuff going on there for sure.*  I'm doing this monitoring through three front speakers (dedicated center speaker), but it seems to work the same (as far as I can tell, at least similarly) mixing to two channel stereo.



*BTW, I contacted David Greisinger recently and he kindly sent me his Personal Headphone Equalization App, which helps the user find a personal headphone equalization curve which matches the response of a speaker located directly in front of the listener.  The user adjusts frequency bands and balance controls to find the same apparent centered loudness level in each band.  The resulting curves can then be used for any stereo source listening by that user through those headphones.  This corrects for both the specific headphone's response as well as the listeners personal HRTF, producing much more natural headphone listening both in terms of frequency response and "out of head" spatial imaging.  I've not had a chance to do anything with it yet or go through the process yet, but am excited to do so.  I've asked his permission to discuss it on this board, which I plan to do in a separate thread at some point.  I suspect this is related to that lower treble center EQ cut I describe above.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 05:32:55 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #90 on: April 05, 2018, 06:08:30 PM »
But to emphasize GB's commentary- don't sweat the EQ stuff much, It's truly all to taste. And ALWAYS be judicious, less is more is generally the case with tonal balance EQ.
One thing To add on a tangent- I like to listen to the two channel "rough mix" 3 different ways before I decide if/how to EQ- over computer monitors using both Audacity and foobar2000, headphones, and in my car. So silly, but my car audio system is the most revealing of the three.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #91 on: April 05, 2018, 06:32:34 PM »
One thing To add on a tangent- I like to listen to the two channel "rough mix" 3 different ways before I decide if/how to EQ- over computer monitors using both Audacity and foobar2000, headphones, and in my car. So silly, but my car audio system is the most revealing of the three.
I try to do that as well.  My primary headphones (Beyer DT880 600 ohm) are on the bright side, so if I rely just on them the end result can sound dull on any other system.  So, in this case, I made some rough mixes and compared them through my main rig (Monitor Audio Silver 10s, Simaudio Moon 240i).  In this case I wasn't comparing different EQs, but different ratios of omnis to AT cards.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #92 on: April 05, 2018, 06:42:55 PM »
One thing To add on a tangent- I like to listen to the two channel "rough mix" 3 different ways before I decide if/how to EQ- over computer monitors using both Audacity and foobar2000, headphones, and in my car. So silly, but my car audio system is the most revealing of the three.
I try to do that as well.  My primary headphones (Beyer DT880 600 ohm) are on the bright side, so if I rely just on them the end result can sound dull on any other system.  So, in this case, I made some rough mixes and compared them through my main rig (Monitor Audio Silver 10s, Simaudio Moon 240i).  In this case I wasn't comparing different EQs, but different ratios of omnis to AT cards.

thats pretty much what i do. I fly by the seat of my pants if and i mean IF i do any EQ. I just go with what sounds right to me vs. any real concept or philosophy. You can tweak all day every day. I figure go with my gut and get it done.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #93 on: April 05, 2018, 07:32:22 PM »
I fly by the seat of my pants if and i mean IF i do any EQ. I just go with what sounds right to me vs. any real concept or philosophy. You can tweak all day every day. I figure go with my gut and get it done.

I do that then rationalize it and make long posts justifying to myself here.  ;)
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #94 on: May 15, 2018, 10:59:48 PM »
Nothing really groundbreaking here compared to other setups in this thread, but I think this effort came out okay. 

Here's a link to the setup: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=151303.msg2264778#msg2264778

Here's a link to the recording: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=186458.0

As always, input is very much appreciated.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #95 on: May 17, 2018, 05:55:13 AM »
Thank you for recording and photos. It is sounding very good, I like it a lot. Please, do you have recordings from others to compare (single pair mics)?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 05:57:52 AM by kuba e »

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #96 on: May 17, 2018, 08:34:53 AM »
Thank you for recording and photos. It is sounding very good, I like it a lot. Please, do you have recordings from others to compare (single pair mics)?
If you mean others from the same show, there's this: https://archive.org/details/GarajMahal2018-05-11
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #97 on: May 17, 2018, 09:17:22 AM »
Thanks heathen, sounds good.  Interesting to compare the two recordings partly because they aren't a straight comp, made from quite different perspectives, one from out in the audience the other on stage, and also represent a quite different level of investment cost. The portrayal of the audience and room sound is quite different.  I don't have time to download and play with them today, but if I did it would be interesting to see how close I could get the two in terms of frequency response after some EQ adjustment.  That wouldn't effect differences in perspective, spatial balance, and mix balance, but is a good way to really understand the essence of the differences other than the spectral differences which strongly dominate any initial listening impression. 

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #98 on: May 17, 2018, 09:45:24 AM »

^^
Thanks for sharing the links heathen!

I found the comparison of onstage DPA 4006a omnis vs onstage DPA 4015c wide-cards interesting too.  One recording was made on 5/10 and the other on 5/11.  Same band, same taper.  I was very surprised at how much more I liked the omni recording vs  the subcards.  It is a shame that for what we do the omnis often have to take the backseat to the directional mics to avoid all of the "extraneous noise" surrounding the performance.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #99 on: May 17, 2018, 12:00:08 PM »
I found the comparison of onstage DPA 4006a omnis vs onstage DPA 4015c wide-cards interesting too.  One recording was made on 5/10 and the other on 5/11.  Same band, same taper.  I was very surprised at how much more I liked the omni recording vs  the subcards.

Can you describe what it is you like so much more about the omni recording?
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #100 on: May 17, 2018, 12:35:25 PM »
^ Thanks for pointing me to these recordings.  I don't have a strong preference for either of these two.  Both are nice - I find myself liking some things about one more than the other and vice-versa.  In general, I like the spatial depth, overall smoothness and solid bottom of the omnis, and like the more distinct imaging and up-front presentation of the subcards.  I say this from comparing the same numbers played both nights.  If forced to choose a favorite, I'd probably give the nod to the subcards.

It's exactly this kind of "wanting the best of both" that makes multi-microphone combinations like OMT attractive to me (among other reasons).  Sure, really good 2 channel stereo recordings can have a clean minimalist purity and beauty to them which cannot be matched via mic combination techniques, but will always be more of "take what you get, like it or not" kind of thing.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #101 on: May 17, 2018, 01:01:01 PM »
FWIW I'm pretty sure Scott ran both omnis and subcards on 5/11.  I definitely remember seeing two pairs of mics on the stand.  I have no idea how to get in touch with him (met him for the first time that night), but maybe someone who does could cajole him into posting his other 5/11 recording for you guys...?
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #102 on: May 18, 2018, 01:35:55 PM »
Nothing really groundbreaking here compared to other setups in this thread, but I think this effort came out okay. 

Here's a link to the setup: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=151303.msg2264778#msg2264778

Here's a link to the recording: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=186458.0

As always, input is very much appreciated.
I listened to most of the LMA 5-11 recording this morning at work over cheap PC speakers. I liked the openness of tone and the balance of instruments seemed more distinct than I typically get out of these Logitechs.
Great job both recording and Post.
Thanks for sharing
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 01:37:50 PM by rocksuitcase »
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Offline heathen

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #103 on: May 18, 2018, 02:04:43 PM »
Thanks, that means a lot to me.

To be honest, if I hadn't gone with XY on the center pair I might have scrapped the omnis entirely because of how much crowd noise the omnis picked up.  The XY pair on their own, though, was just too narrow of an image for my taste so I kept the omnis in the mix. 
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #104 on: May 18, 2018, 03:03:52 PM »
The XY pair on their own, though, was just too narrow of an image for my taste so I kept the omnis in the mix.

That's a good indication that you are doing OMT right!  Sort of like the inherent balance of a three leg stool.

I didn't listen to the entire recordings, but of what I did I prefered the portrayal of the audience reaction in yours.  More open, natural, less muffled, more spatially correct to my ear.  That's not necessarily with respect to the level balance of the audience, but at least for what I listened to the balance was in no way unacceptable.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #105 on: May 18, 2018, 05:56:28 PM »
The XY pair on their own, though, was just too narrow of an image for my taste so I kept the omnis in the mix.

That's a good indication that you are doing OMT right!  Sort of like the inherent balance of a three leg stool.

I didn't listen to the entire recordings, but of what I did I preferred the portrayal of the audience reaction in yours.  More open, natural, less muffled, more spatially correct to my ear.  That's not necessarily with respect to the level balance of the audience, but at least for what I listened to the balance was in no way unacceptable.
I keep marking this thread unread all day today as I wish to comment on that sentence heathen, but am moving so fast today- so briefly- the OMT mix uses the decorrelation aspect of the theory which makes the stereo illusion seem more natural. the psychoacoustic result, to my ears, is random audience noises such as talking or beer bottle drops are de-emphasized in an OMT mix when compared to the straight omni or straight center pair (all other things relative of course).
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 10:57:43 AM by rocksuitcase »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #106 on: May 19, 2018, 09:20:58 AM »
I found the comparison of onstage DPA 4006a omnis vs onstage DPA 4015c wide-cards interesting too.  One recording was made on 5/10 and the other on 5/11.  Same band, same taper.  I was very surprised at how much more I liked the omni recording vs  the subcards.

Can you describe what it is you like so much more about the omni recording?

^ I enjoyed both of the recordings but I was sucked into the omni recording by the same strengths of this particular omni pull that you mentioned earlier.  The depth and fullness of the low end really grabbed me and I enjoyed the overall immersive feeling that the omni recording gave me.  The subcards were very powerful in their own right, crisp, clear and in your face, but in this case I enjoyed the total omni effect!




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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #107 on: May 19, 2018, 05:37:39 PM »
FWIW I'm pretty sure Scott ran both omnis and subcards on 5/11.  I definitely remember seeing two pairs of mics on the stand.  I have no idea how to get in touch with him (met him for the first time that night), but maybe someone who does could cajole him into posting his other 5/11 recording for you guys...?

https://archive.org/details/gm2018-05-11.dpa4015c.flac16

Here is the 4015 source if it helps to keep the conversation moving along. It’s not going to be an accurate comp since I used the Portico in front of the 788 but the relative soundstage of the recording shouldn't be affected.
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Recordings on the LMA: www.archive.org/bookmarks/scottsch3

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #108 on: May 20, 2018, 09:31:30 AM »
^Thanks Scott.  Did you enable the "silk" option on the 5012 for the 4015 source linked to above??
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 12:50:29 PM by dactylus »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #109 on: May 21, 2018, 12:56:56 PM »
^Thanks Scott.  Did you enable the "silk" option on the 5012 for the 4015 source linked to above??

mmmmmnh, Silk.
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