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Author Topic: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2  (Read 81580 times)

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Offline down2earthlandscaper

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #225 on: November 19, 2018, 11:43:44 AM »
Trying again, with another impromptu rigging.

Poway Symphony Orchestra
2018-11-18 sunday

DPA4060 pair as 16' spaced pair, with APE response balls, and mics forward @0º just emerging from the balls, with grids only exposed.
Line Audio CM3 pair as 0º forward and 180º rearward, from the stage lip, center.
Mics arranged along the stage lip edge.
Tas. DR70D 24.96

And, also Gude Head binaural stream_ R09HR 24.96 from 1st row DFC

these are shareable, and will be going to LMA

This looks really interesting. Looking forward to checking it out when you post it. Thanks!
Mics: CA-14(cards & omnis) and CA-11(cards & omnis) ; AT853's(cards, hypers, mini shotguns); Busman BSC-1 (cards, hypers, omnis)
Nakamichi CM300's (CP-1,2,3,4) Nakamichi CM700's (cards, omnis)
Tascam PE-120's (cards, omnis) Countryman B2D
DPA 4061's DPA 4022's; DPA 4080; AKG 480 ck61 and ck63; Naiant AKG Active Cables
Preamps: CA-9100; Naiant Tinybox (12v/48v + PIP 8V); Naiant Littlebox;
DPA MPS6030; Sound Device Mix Pre-D
Decks: Mixpre 10T and 6; Roland R-07; Marantz PMD620; Sony PCM M10; Edirol R-4; Zoom H6; Marantz PMD-661; Sound Devices 722

mfrench

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #226 on: November 19, 2018, 09:42:21 PM »
just posted this 1644 version (and missed properly id'ing it in the title. doh!)
don't use this link: https://archive.org/details/pso2018-11-182018-11-18.omt-mix_16
the retarded link, for now, ^^

and, the fixed link:
https://archive.org/details/pso2018-11-18.omt-mix_1644
https://archive.org/details/pso2018-11-18.omt-mix_2496
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 05:25:44 PM by Moke »

Offline heathen

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #227 on: November 19, 2018, 09:56:42 PM »
just posted this 1644 version (and missed properly id'ing it in the title. doh!)
https://archive.org/details/pso2018-11-182018-11-18.omt-mix_16 
the retarded link, for now, ^^

This is great!
Mics: AT4050ST | AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 Pre: CA9200 Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #228 on: November 20, 2018, 05:13:07 PM »
just posted this 1644 version (and missed properly id'ing it in the title. doh!)
https://archive.org/details/pso2018-11-182018-11-18.omt-mix_16 
the retarded link, for now, ^^

This is great!

Yes, It's sounds excellent. Beautiful recording and music. Mike, thank you and orchestra for taping and sharing. 

How much did you add rear mic to the mix? What do you think is better -  to have the center mics forward and rear or to have both center mics forward in xy? I know, Gutbucket and you have an experience with acoustic music. I will make a recording of acoustic music, much smaller ensemble, voices and 2 or 3 instruments. I'll use a rig with four microphones, probably near the podium. Center pair are cardiods, spaced pair are omnis. And I do not know how to set the center pair. I'm tempted to do like you - let go the stereo created by xy and instead use front and rear mics.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 05:15:02 PM by kuba e »

mfrench

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #229 on: November 20, 2018, 05:32:19 PM »
Thanks much, gents!

Kuba,
I used the rear mic as it was in the master, and mixed it in at that amplitude, and mixed to center.  I had the level of that mic set to where it balanced with the other three mics, but only during the applause. other than that, during the music, I so desperately wanted to "turn it up". 
The rear mic, in my use, is mostly redundant for what it offers. The omnis had explosive ovation response, and needed to be tamed a bit, so that everything else could be brought up. So, the rear mic is mostly what offers the audience ovation response, as the omnis were compressed through the ovations. The ovations were easily +12dBfs over the music, and into the peaking red zone via the 4060 pair. Limiter? yeah probably should have used it, but, haven't done so in decades.

the links above were updated to include the 2496 file set.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 05:34:37 PM by Moke »

Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #230 on: November 20, 2018, 06:36:27 PM »
Thanks for the reply. Yes I understand, the audience should be very loud in acoustic recordings. Sometimes I lower audience applause in master track manually. It is extra work to mark the segments of the applause. But when those segments are correctly selected, the jump in volume is not heard.

I tried the rear microphone on just two recordings and it was always interesting. Next time I will not record myself, but I will lend rig to my friends. They are doing amateur classical music. I will tell them to set it up with the rear microphone.  ;D

Offline ycoop

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #231 on: November 27, 2018, 04:51:39 AM »
https://archive.org/details/cats2018-11-21.avantCA14mix

This is my first attempt at more than 2 channels, though I’m not sure it qualifies as OMT exactly, due to not going XY in the center.  Listening back to either stereo pair in isolation gives me a good idea of the benefits/detriments of spaces omnis vs near coincident and also how the combination of the two can sound *much* better. I feel confident saying this is my best recording to date.

I ran the CK1 cards in DIN to try out a different configuration in a venue I’ve run the hypers in DINa. Listening back there’s still a somewhat noticeable hole in the middle, though not as wide of one as with the spaces omnis alone. I may try an XY configuration for the CK1s next time in hopes of addressing that more fully. As it turns out the hypers in DINa sounded better then the cards in DIN, though I wasn’t running in the exact same spot and the few foot difference also placed my center mics right up against a sound deadening pad on the wall, whereas last time I was 1-2” off the wall.

Sadly I didn’t take a picture of the rig in the wild, but I ran the CA14s spread about a meter on this antenna apparatus that I found at the local salvage yard (Urban Ore in Berkeley for any of you Bay Area folks). It seems to be designed to be placed into a socket of an analog TV. There was a ribbon attached which I snipped off. I just taped the contraption to my stand with gaff tape. I need to find a more elegant solution, as this was a major hassle to take apart.

« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 05:10:57 AM by ycoop »
Mics: Avantone CK-1s, AT853 c+o
Pres: CA9100
Recorders: DR-60d mkII, DR-2d

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #232 on: November 27, 2018, 09:06:48 AM »
https://archive.org/details/cats2018-11-21.avantCA14mix

This is my first attempt at more than 2 channels, though I’m not sure it qualifies as OMT exactly, due to not going XY in the center.  Listening back to either stereo pair in isolation gives me a good idea of the benefits/detriments of spaces omnis vs near coincident and also how the combination of the two can sound *much* better. I feel confident saying this is my best recording to date.

I ran the CK1 cards in DIN to try out a different configuration in a venue I’ve run the hypers in DINa. Listening back there’s still a somewhat noticeable hole in the middle, though not as wide of one as with the spaces omnis alone. I may try an XY configuration for the CK1s next time in hopes of addressing that more fully. As it turns out the hypers in DINa sounded better then the cards in DIN, though I wasn’t running in the exact same spot and the few foot difference also placed my center mics right up against a sound deadening pad on the wall, whereas last time I was 1-2” off the wall.

Sadly I didn’t take a picture of the rig in the wild, but I ran the CA14s spread about a meter on this antenna apparatus that I found at the local salvage yard (Urban Ore in Berkeley for any of you Bay Area folks). It seems to be designed to be placed into a socket of an analog TV. There was a ribbon attached which I snipped off. I just taped the contraption to my stand with gaff tape. I need to find a more elegant solution, as this was a major hassle to take apart.
+T              running a crossed pair in the middle affords you a "safety pair" as well as gives some center imaging. When we run the hypers in the middle we have been going at about 50-60 degrees as opposed to a 90 or 110 (As recommended by Lee).
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI x2; Sony PCM-M10

Offline capnhook

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #233 on: November 27, 2018, 12:17:57 PM »
The problem you can have if you don't have your XY center pair at 90 degrees is that the more you deviate from 90 degrees, the more you kind of lose your "safety pair".

It will be more difficult to make rational mid-side adjustments (with MSED or other software) if you aren't at 90 degrees.
Proud member of the reality-based community

BSCS-L->JB-mod [NAK CM-300 (CP-3) and/or (CP-1)]->LSD2->CA CAFS-Omni->Sony ECM-907**Apogee MiniMe Rev. C->CA Ugly II->**Edirol OCM R-44->Tascam DR-22WL->Sony TCD-D8


"Don't ever take an all or nothing attitude when it comes to making a difference
and being beautiful and making the world a beautiful place through your actions.
Every little bit is registered.  Every little bit.  So be as beautiful as you can as often as you can"

"It'll never be over, 'till we learn."
 
"My dream is to get a bus and get the band and just go coast to coast. Just about everything else except music, is anti-musical.  That's it.  Music's the thing." - Jeb Puryear

Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #234 on: November 27, 2018, 01:13:46 PM »
https://archive.org/details/cats2018-11-21.avantCA14mix

This is my first attempt at more than 2 channels, though I’m not sure it qualifies as OMT exactly, due to not going XY in the center.  Listening back to either stereo pair in isolation gives me a good idea of the benefits/detriments of spaces omnis vs near coincident and also how the combination of the two can sound *much* better. I feel confident saying this is my best recording to date.

I ran the CK1 cards in DIN to try out a different configuration in a venue I’ve run the hypers in DINa. Listening back there’s still a somewhat noticeable hole in the middle, though not as wide of one as with the spaces omnis alone. I may try an XY configuration for the CK1s next time in hopes of addressing that more fully. As it turns out the hypers in DINa sounded better then the cards in DIN, though I wasn’t running in the exact same spot and the few foot difference also placed my center mics right up against a sound deadening pad on the wall, whereas last time I was 1-2” off the wall.

Sadly I didn’t take a picture of the rig in the wild, but I ran the CA14s spread about a meter on this antenna apparatus that I found at the local salvage yard (Urban Ore in Berkeley for any of you Bay Area folks). It seems to be designed to be placed into a socket of an analog TV. There was a ribbon attached which I snipped off. I just taped the contraption to my stand with gaff tape. I need to find a more elegant solution, as this was a major hassle to take apart.

Your recording sounds very good to me. I don't hear hole in the middle. Perhaps you will not use safety track often. If it's not a bad sounding room, adding spaced omni has always been a benefit for me. Center coincident pair is giving you possibility for M/S adjustment when mixing with omni. But you can try M/S on non coincident pair too, here is more about it http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=188238.0.

Also, when you mix coincident pair with spaced pair, there is less chance of phase cancellation in the resulting track. I use a coincident pair in the center, because it is more safe for me due to the already mentioned phase cancellation. On the other hand, others use up to eight microphones at a time and have no problem with phase cancellation, so my concerns are perhaps unnecessary.

To compare how sound different configurations go to bt.etree.org and find Phish 10/28/2018. Noah made beautiful recordings from tha same spot with different mic's patterns and configurations. There is also recording with fig. 8 and cardiod. You can try M/S manipulation on the true Mid / Side source.

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #235 on: November 27, 2018, 02:03:15 PM »
The problem you can have if you don't have your XY center pair at 90 degrees is that the more you deviate from 90 degrees, the more you kind of lose your "safety pair".

It will be more difficult to make rational mid-side adjustments (with MSED or other software) if you aren't at 90 degrees.
This is the nature of OMT, at some point you make trade offs unless you have unlimited channels. Lately, we have given up on the "safety pair" concept for two reasons:
1] We know what OMT will do for us and have determined the center channels, if coincident, at 50-60 degrees works best for the OMT mix but is NOT a safety pair at that point.
2] We typically run another set of mics and/or deck so that becomes our "safety recording".
That said, we have run 90' coincident crossed cards and hypers (AKG ck61, or ck3) several times as the middle pair of a 4chOMT setup and IMO this works a bit "better" mixing wise than the front/rear facing cards.
THAT said, I still prefer a "standard 4chOMT consisting of spaced omnis with front|rear cards or hypers. (Lately we have been doing the front mic a hyper (ck3) and rear a cardiod (ck61)
Finally, I have done exactly ZERO attempts at MS adjusting of any of our center channels; it's just not my thing.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 02:15:48 PM by rocksuitcase »
music IS love

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Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI x2; Sony PCM-M10

Offline capnhook

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #236 on: November 27, 2018, 02:17:04 PM »

That said, we have run 90' coincident crossed cards and hypers (AKG ck61, or ck3) several times as the middle pair of a 4chOMT setup and IMO this works a bit "better" mixing wise than the front/rear facing cards.


Exactly why I use coincident XY for the center.  With all these channels, I've been experimenting with including wide PAS cards lately, to get the "sizzle" I sometimes need.

Quote

THAT said, I still prefer a "standard chOMT consisting of spaced omnis with front|rear cards or hypers. (Lately we have been doing the front mic a hyper (ck3) and rear a cardiod (ck61)


Good to know what you prefer.  Thanks.
Proud member of the reality-based community

BSCS-L->JB-mod [NAK CM-300 (CP-3) and/or (CP-1)]->LSD2->CA CAFS-Omni->Sony ECM-907**Apogee MiniMe Rev. C->CA Ugly II->**Edirol OCM R-44->Tascam DR-22WL->Sony TCD-D8


"Don't ever take an all or nothing attitude when it comes to making a difference
and being beautiful and making the world a beautiful place through your actions.
Every little bit is registered.  Every little bit.  So be as beautiful as you can as often as you can"

"It'll never be over, 'till we learn."
 
"My dream is to get a bus and get the band and just go coast to coast. Just about everything else except music, is anti-musical.  That's it.  Music's the thing." - Jeb Puryear

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #237 on: November 27, 2018, 02:19:43 PM »

Quote

THAT said, I still prefer a "standard 4chOMT consisting of spaced omnis with front|rear cards or hypers. (Lately we have been doing the front mic a hyper (ck3) and rear a cardiod (ck61)


Good to know what you prefer.  Thanks.

Yeah, I had to correct my post as I forgot the "4" in 4chOMT".
And yes, what I meant by preferring the front/rear mics as opposed to the crossed pair is for ease of mixing. (My mixing, not necessarily anyone elses) I just feel, for what we record (Rock n roll from indoor/outdoor PA's) it is simpler to my ears to have a solid center and the rear is optional depending on venue/acoustics/crowd
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI x2; Sony PCM-M10

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #238 on: November 28, 2018, 09:14:55 AM »
Hi guys, I just got back after 10 days away, most of it offline.  Good to see such activity in this thread, I'll make some comments as I can while catching back up at work today.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline ycoop

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #239 on: November 28, 2018, 11:48:54 AM »
https://archive.org/details/cats2018-11-21.avantCA14mix

This is my first attempt at more than 2 channels, though I’m not sure it qualifies as OMT exactly, due to not going XY in the center.  Listening back to either stereo pair in isolation gives me a good idea of the benefits/detriments of spaces omnis vs near coincident and also how the combination of the two can sound *much* better. I feel confident saying this is my best recording to date.

I ran the CK1 cards in DIN to try out a different configuration in a venue I’ve run the hypers in DINa. Listening back there’s still a somewhat noticeable hole in the middle, though not as wide of one as with the spaces omnis alone. I may try an XY configuration for the CK1s next time in hopes of addressing that more fully. As it turns out the hypers in DINa sounded better then the cards in DIN, though I wasn’t running in the exact same spot and the few foot difference also placed my center mics right up against a sound deadening pad on the wall, whereas last time I was 1-2” off the wall.

Sadly I didn’t take a picture of the rig in the wild, but I ran the CA14s spread about a meter on this antenna apparatus that I found at the local salvage yard (Urban Ore in Berkeley for any of you Bay Area folks). It seems to be designed to be placed into a socket of an analog TV. There was a ribbon attached which I snipped off. I just taped the contraption to my stand with gaff tape. I need to find a more elegant solution, as this was a major hassle to take apart.

Your recording sounds very good to me. I don't hear hole in the middle. Perhaps you will not use safety track often. If it's not a bad sounding room, adding spaced omni has always been a benefit for me. Center coincident pair is giving you possibility for M/S adjustment when mixing with omni. But you can try M/S on non coincident pair too, here is more about it http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=188238.0.

Also, when you mix coincident pair with spaced pair, there is less chance of phase cancellation in the resulting track. I use a coincident pair in the center, because it is more safe for me due to the already mentioned phase cancellation. On the other hand, others use up to eight microphones at a time and have no problem with phase cancellation, so my concerns are perhaps unnecessary.

To compare how sound different configurations go to bt.etree.org and find Phish 10/28/2018. Noah made beautiful recordings from tha same spot with different mic's patterns and configurations. There is also recording with fig. 8 and cardiod. You can try M/S manipulation on the true Mid / Side source.

I noticed the hole when switching between omnis alone and both pairs. The hole narrows, but I can still hear it with the center pair included.

Can someone explain the exact idea of a “safety pair”?
Mics: Avantone CK-1s, AT853 c+o
Pres: CA9100
Recorders: DR-60d mkII, DR-2d

 

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