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Author Topic: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2  (Read 8563 times)

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Offline noahbickart

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2018, 01:15:51 PM »
Thanks Noah.  What are your thoughts about it?

I think it worked well.

My only real issue is the large bar needed for appropriate spacing. It requires a heavier larger stand.

On Saturday night, I probably had a chance to go FOB, but turned it down because I was committed to the big stand.

Sunday night in Albany, where I was poised for FOB, I ran three pairs, all of which sound great. but there was no way I could have used the big omni bar there.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2018, 03:15:09 PM »
Thanks and agreed- I see the need to space the omnis sufficiently as the most imposing setup constraint for OMT, assuming one is already setup to run more than 2 channels.  And it doesn't help that it seems the more spacing one can get between the omnis the better the result, at least as a general trend with this.

Both of these recordings sound good to me. I did EQ'd each separately before making a comparison (and then compared the two both with and without EQ), and found it interesting that I came up with a very similar although slightly different curve for each.
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Offline Moke

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #62 on: March 28, 2018, 01:48:31 PM »
Well, sometimes you find things when you least expect to.
Objective of the morning: Find/learn about a Pintle tow hitch system.
Found:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/TowSmart-Solo-Hitch-Alignment-System-1280/206798835


Telescoping, extends from 10.5" to 43" each w/ hardish foam ball ends with *2.5" balls. Heavy magnetic bases.

*measured this morning.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 09:44:55 AM by Moke »
Sent From My Craftsman Garage Door Opener

Offline Moke

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #63 on: March 28, 2018, 02:32:51 PM »
Do I ever leave anything alone?
Only in the bag, on the way home...

Found out:
Magnets just push out of the channels. This exposed mounting scheme of a pop rivet into the body of the tubing.
Determined: Childs play to mod further.
Pop Rivets will be removed, and machine screw replacements. At the magnet channel, matching all-thread connector female ferrules will be attached so that the magnetic bases can be utilized, or, the machine screws can be used to connect the two spreaders into a single unit.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 07:15:20 PM by Moke »
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #64 on: March 28, 2018, 03:57:45 PM »
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=185887.0
Rig pics of recent 2 day festival where we did two different OMT variants.
Friday variant was: Friday - AKGck22 omni spread 108 cm > Grace V2@+25dB 2 x AKGck3 XY 60' (PAS) in center >> Tascam DR680
The SAT variant:                  AKGck22 omnis about 15 feet apart >Grace V2; 2 x ck3' hypers crossed 60' (PAS) in center > Grace V3
Approximate locations are same center location; Friday we had the Manfrotto triple bar limitation of about 108cm spread; Saturday we were able to spread them using three stands.

In our opinions this wide spread resulted in a kick ass recording.
More will be added in here later to support the discussion. LMA links:
https://archive.org/details/jgb2018-03-24.akgck3_ck22                  SAT
https://archive.org/details/ggw2018-03-23.akgck3_ck22                 FRI

What I noticed between the two days differing setups is the wide spread omnis certainly have more "uniqueness" to the signal with very little correlation between the two channels. Unfortunately what we did is nowhere near scientific; each day had different acts, and although the same PA was used, on Saturday the JGB FOH was doing SIM measurements using a measurement mic close slightly above the floor area thus IMO the overall sound quality was 15-20% "Better" than Friday.
Another notable process: we had the center pair of hypers crossed PAS which essentially was about 60' maybe closer to 50' (as recommended by GB)
edited to answer GB's questions below
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 06:14:31 PM by rocksuitcase »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #65 on: March 29, 2018, 04:31:15 PM »
For anyone lurking, or wondering what the OMT hubbub is all about,  Rocksuitcase and Kindms's recording of JGB with Melvin Seals last Sat is an excellent example of what this technique is capable of, and is in my opinion indeed quite kickass!  Its comparatively easier to make a recording of this quality from well FOB in the sweet spot, but not so easy from 50' back near the back of the room in an indoor hall.

Link to that recording (again)- https://archive.org/details/jgb2018-03-24.akgck3_ck22

Quote
What I noticed between the two days differing setups is the wide spread omnis certainly have more "uniqueness" to the signal with very little correlation between the two channels.

Yes, exactly.  Low correlation between the wide omnis providing the big open ambience, fat bottom, and a nicely diffuse representation of the audience + High correlation between the coincident PAS hyper center pair providing clear focus and imaging of the direct sound from the PA and stage.. with the right amount of blend between the them.  Two complementary pieces of the puzzle which go hand in hand and work especially well in combination partly because they are sufficiently different enough from each other.  This is the core essence from which the technique is constructed - each part contributes something different, and no part works optimally on its own without the other (which is the necessary leap of faith in really taking the technique to the next level and making the most of it), so that in combination the sum of the separate elements produces something greater than any of the individual parts.

That leap of faith thing is the tough part, yet is essential to really wring the most from OMT.  It's much more comfortable to build upon 2-channel stereo techniques we've a preference for from personal experience and general practice, which are certainly true for for 2-channel recording in general (things like near-spaced stereo pairs in the center, wider X/Y angles in the center, pointing all the mics toward the stage, not overly-wide omni spreads, etc).   It's really ingrained in us.  I still find myself convincing myself to push further outside the envelope of "known good" stereo practice sometimes with regards to advancing the technique further in pursuit of the sound, man, the sound!


I gave a quick listen to the Friday GGW for comparison, and yes the difference in sound quality in PA optimization is apparent.  I can mentally "listen around" that when listening for other attributes of the recording which correspond the differences in your recording setup over the two days and I suspect others reading this can mentally do the same, as long as I know what variables didn't change.  With that in mind, can you clarify a bit on what was different other than the much wider omni spacing (15' verses 42"), the bands themselves, and the PA optimization?

Seems you were quite close to the same recording location both days.
Center X/Y pair in PAS both days? (same approximate 50 degree angle between mics to PAS both days or are you saying you made it a bit tighter on Saturday than on Friday?)
^Just want to make sure before I draw conclusions.

BTW for folks reading, there is more discussion on these two recordings and photos of the setups used in this alternate thread- http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=185887.msg2259795#msg2259795 And here's 'Suitcase's photo from that thread showing the 15' split omnis + PAS hyper center pair setup used to make this recording-

« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 04:56:12 PM by Gutbucket »
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
made easy- >>Improved PAS table<< | made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #66 on: March 29, 2018, 04:47:45 PM »
The Pintle tow hitch system Moke found as an alternate and more heavy-duty telescopic mic bar for spacing the omnis looks very promising, and Moke is already made rapid progress in transforming into a working telescopic mic bar.  To bring folks reading this OMT thread up to speed, we've posted more discussion on that in another thread specifically adressing bars for spacing 4060s and the use of various shapped modifier attachements for them- http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=185872.msg2259701#msg2259701  I won't duplicate that info here at this point since whats' been posted thus far is pretty much covered in the original OMT thread, other than linking a couple photos of his posted over there showing what he's done and a comparison with TV antenna arms.  Looks significantly beefier and capable of supporting mics larger than flyweight miniature omnis.

 
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
made easy- >>Improved PAS table<< | made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #67 on: March 29, 2018, 06:22:41 PM »
For anyone lurking, or wondering what the OMT hubbub is all about,  Rocksuitcase and Kindms's recording of JGB with Melvin Seals last Sat is an excellent example of what this technique is capable of, and is in my opinion indeed quite kickass!

I gave a quick listen to the Friday GGW for comparison, and yes the difference in sound quality in PA optimization is apparent.  I can mentally "listen around" that when listening for other attributes of the recording which correspond the differences in your recording setup over the two days and I suspect others reading this can mentally do the same, as long as I know what variables didn't change.  With that in mind, can you clarify a bit on what was different other than the much wider omni spacing (15' verses 42"), the bands themselves, and the PA optimization?

Seems you were quite close to the same recording location both days.
Center X/Y pair in PAS both days? (same approximate 50 degree angle between mics to PAS both days or are you saying you made it a bit tighter on Saturday than on Friday?)
^Just want to make sure before I draw conclusions.
Answers to questions in edited clarified post above yours! Thanks so much for your inspiration- results such as these make it all worth learning and doing!
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline kindms

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #68 on: March 29, 2018, 07:38:34 PM »
For anyone lurking, or wondering what the OMT hubbub is all about,  Rocksuitcase and Kindms's recording of JGB with Melvin Seals last Sat is an excellent example of what this technique is capable of, and is in my opinion indeed quite kickass!  Its comparatively easier to make a recording of this quality from well FOB in the sweet spot, but not so easy from 50' back near the back of the room in an indoor hall.

Link to that recording (again)- https://archive.org/details/jgb2018-03-24.akgck3_ck22

Quote
What I noticed between the two days differing setups is the wide spread omnis certainly have more "uniqueness" to the signal with very little correlation between the two channels.

Yes, exactly.  Low correlation between the wide omnis providing the big open ambience, fat bottom, and a nicely diffuse representation of the audience + High correlation between the coincident PAS hyper center pair providing clear focus and imaging of the direct sound from the PA and stage.. with the right amount of blend between the them.  Two complementary pieces of the puzzle which go hand in hand and work especially well in combination partly because they are sufficiently different enough from each other.  This is the core essence from which the technique is constructed - each part contributes something different, and no part works optimally on its own without the other (which is the necessary leap of faith in really taking the technique to the next level and making the most of it), so that in combination the sum of the separate elements produces something greater than any of the individual parts.

That leap of faith thing is the tough part, yet is essential to really wring the most from OMT.  It's much more comfortable to build upon 2-channel stereo techniques we've a preference for from personal experience and general practice, which are certainly true for for 2-channel recording in general (things like near-spaced stereo pairs in the center, wider X/Y angles in the center, pointing all the mics toward the stage, not overly-wide omni spreads, etc).   It's really ingrained in us.  I still find myself convincing myself to push further outside the envelope of "known good" stereo practice sometimes with regards to advancing the technique further in pursuit of the sound, man, the sound!


I gave a quick listen to the Friday GGW for comparison, and yes the difference in sound quality in PA optimization is apparent.  I can mentally "listen around" that when listening for other attributes of the recording which correspond the differences in your recording setup over the two days and I suspect others reading this can mentally do the same, as long as I know what variables didn't change.  With that in mind, can you clarify a bit on what was different other than the much wider omni spacing (15' verses 42"), the bands themselves, and the PA optimization?

Seems you were quite close to the same recording location both days.
Center X/Y pair in PAS both days? (same approximate 50 degree angle between mics to PAS both days or are you saying you made it a bit tighter on Saturday than on Friday?)
^Just want to make sure before I draw conclusions.

BTW for folks reading, there is more discussion on these two recordings and photos of the setups used in this alternate thread- http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=185887.msg2259795#msg2259795 And here's 'Suitcase's photo from that thread showing the 15' split omnis + PAS hyper center pair setup used to make this recording-



Hey thanks for the kind words. Always nice when it turns out well

considering we had all sorts of real and imagined issues  :o its amazing the v2 & v3 stayed powered on and we didnt create a problem

was really fun being able to contribute the 414s to the stream as well. we got to demo the mix during the JGB soundcheck. Matt said he had always wanted to mic the audience that way but never had the time / chance to do it

Also have to give a shout out to math and rocksuitcase. One of those classic moments. He walks off the distance from the video FOH to stage. yells back to set the delay 40ms, then says make 35ms. It was dead on
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #69 on: March 30, 2018, 05:20:36 PM »
another OMT goodie:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=185913.0
Kung Fu
The OMT setup:
Source: AKG ck3 (60deg) >Tascam DR680(24/48) + AKG ck22 split 42" (108cm) >V2 >Tascam DR680(24/48)
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline heathen

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #70 on: April 02, 2018, 01:13:41 PM »
Saturday night I broke out the TV antennas and ran some split omnis.  Specifically, I had a pair of AT4031s in the center in DIN config.  Flanking those were a pair of CA14 omnis, 70 inches apart, oriented 180 degrees from each other.  I've only listened to snippets of the recording, but I am very surprised at how decent the omnis sound on their own (this was indoors, by the way).  I hope to have something posted this week, but in the meantime I can say that it was a lot of fun to fly some mics at such a wide spacing.
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | AT AE5100s | AT853s (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3s | DPA 4061s | CA-14 omnis | Studio Projects CS5
Pre: CA9200
Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

Offline heathen

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #71 on: April 04, 2018, 09:47:11 AM »
Here's my recording from 3/31 with the split omnis and AT4031 mix: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=185963.0

I really like the low end that the omnis add, and was initially concerned about them adding too much crowd noise.  Then I listened to just the ATs and, unfortunately, the crowd was just really loud that night...can't blame the omnis.  As I mentioned before, though, I was really impressed with the omnis by themselves.  I wonder if Chris adds a bit of a high end boost to his omnis since they'll generally be used far from the source in our concert recording situations (that's a topic for another thread, though).
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | AT AE5100s | AT853s (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3s | DPA 4061s | CA-14 omnis | Studio Projects CS5
Pre: CA9200
Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #72 on: April 04, 2018, 12:55:21 PM »
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  downloading now. I love any Medeski project. I'll let you know my opinion on the recording. Thanks for sharing!

Wow, half way through- I like it. Very "wide" and spacious. I'm at work on small speakers but the AUD hasn't gotten in the way yet. Scofield has a very airy guitar tone which you captured pretty well here.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 03:24:01 PM by rocksuitcase »
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline heathen

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #73 on: April 04, 2018, 12:59:29 PM »
I'll let you know my opinion on the recording.
Looking forward to it.  I still have a lot to learn.
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | AT AE5100s | AT853s (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3s | DPA 4061s | CA-14 omnis | Studio Projects CS5
Pre: CA9200
Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #74 on: April 04, 2018, 02:59:13 PM »
Heathen, any possibility of posting short (say minute long or so) samples of the omnis and cards on their own prior to mixing?  No worries if that's too much hassle.
MP3's uploaded directly to the thread would be perfectly fine.  The size limitation on each file in that case is 750KB.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
made easy- >>Improved PAS table<< | made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

 

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