Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: DPA 4060-61'S: HOW "OMNI" ARE THEY?  (Read 1026 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline BlindGuyEars

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 124
DPA 4060-61'S: HOW "OMNI" ARE THEY?
« on: April 30, 2018, 11:20:20 AM »
Hi folks.

I usually tape with either 4060's or 61's attached to my shoulders, collar, etc.
This is probably a very basic questions for most of you.

Am I wasting time and energy trying to always attach them so they are both facing forward?
If one is angled off to my right and the other left, or even if they're facing inward or to my rear, does it matter? If they capture sound from all directions, does this even matter?

Or, should I just attach them in the best way possible for running the cables under my shirt etc. and not worry about the rest?

I'm guessing spacing is still important... I usually try to attach to fairly far out on each shoulder.
Is that an optimum spacing for tiny omni's like these?

thanks.

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12302
  • Gender: Male
Re: DPA 4060-61'S: HOW "OMNI" ARE THEY?
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2018, 12:16:46 PM »
In free space, these mics are effectively fully omnidirectional up to a very high frequency.  12 years ago I convinced myself I could hear a slight top end increase directly on-axis, using a test source with lots of HF and ultrasonic content a few feet away from the microphone.  In actual use, I've never been able to hear a difference and no longer try to point them directly at the source.  Could I still hear a difference today with 10 year older ears?  Was my 10 year old test really sound, or might I have been fooling myself? [shrug]

However, once you mount them to something, that changes things significantly.  Not in terms of which way the mic itself is oriented on the surface to which it is mounted, but in terms of which direction the surface itself is facing, the size and geometry the surface, the acoustic properties of the surface material, and in some cases how close/tight-coupled the mic is to that surface.  Spacing between the two microphones is always a variable of key importance, and angle (of the surface at each microphone, not of the mic-grid on that surface in this case) also becomes equally important once they are mounted to something.  My advice is to focus on getting the spacing and angle you want using whichever mic-orientation works most practically to achieve that.  And when fine-tuning your setup, adjust those variables without worrying overly much about mic-grid orientation.

That said, in the hierarchy of what matters, the direction the mic grid points probably has more influence than choice of recording sample rates above 48kHz, IMHO.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
made easy- >>Improved PAS table<< | made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Online Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)

  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 9053
  • Gender: Male
  • I dream in beige.
    • sloppy.art.ink
Re: DPA 4060-61'S: HOW "OMNI" ARE THEY?
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2018, 12:42:59 PM »
I've owned a few omni's including 4060's and from my experience (no science), I'd say these are more omni than others I've used (see my sig for the others). They do pick up sound behind you more than others I've used. I've found the plus side to that is that if they move around you can't tell as much. Downside they pick up chatter more behind you.

That being said they should be pointed towards the sound as much as possible.

-24      -12              -6             0       OVER
||||||||||||||||||||||||||| []  
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||| []

||| MICS:  Beyer CK930 ~ Nevaton MCE400 ~ Countryman B3 |||
||| CABLES: Kind Kables |||
||| PREAMPS: Naiant Tinybox | Naiant Littlebox | Naiant IPA | Church BB |||
||| DECKS: Sound Devices MixPre6 | Sony M10 |||
||| PLAYBACK: Outlaw Audio RR2150 > Epos ELS8 |||
||| PHOTO: Sony a6000 | Sony 16-50 | Sony 55-210 | Rokinon 14mm | Rokinon 8mm |||
|||Concert History || LMA Recordings || Live YouTube Channel ||

Offline Ronmac

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 157
  • Gender: Male
Re: DPA 4060-61'S: HOW "OMNI" ARE THEY?
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2018, 03:01:52 PM »
A simple Google search will take you to the published frequency plot polar patterns from DPA.

Offline kuba e

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • *
  • Posts: 164
  • Gender: Male
Re: DPA 4060-61'S: HOW "OMNI" ARE THEY?
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2018, 03:42:33 PM »
They are very tiny mics. The mic's body influences only sound of very short wavelength from back direction. I guess the other omni mics have directional parameters at higher frequencies because of the larger body.

Just a theoretical questions. I wonder what dimension affects the sound. For example, whether the object the size of half-wavelength will affect the sound? And whether high and low frequencies behave differently?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 03:48:34 PM by kuba e »

Offline Moke

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3608
  • m0k3 - √!n¥¬ 633|<
Re: DPA 4060-61'S: HOW "OMNI" ARE THEY?
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2018, 03:57:56 PM »
I took the grids off mine, 4060's, and made a slight speck of a mark on the mic body, with nail polish applied with a sharp point toothpick.  The paint spot indicates to me which direction the capsule openings face. I now make sure, where applicable, that they are oriented forward, for nothing more than having gone through the effort.
Sent From My Craftsman Garage Door Opener

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12302
  • Gender: Male
Re: DPA 4060-61'S: HOW "OMNI" ARE THEY?
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2018, 04:04:04 PM »
A simple Google search will take you to the published frequency plot polar patterns from DPA.

BlindGuyEars is sightless, making a visual plot difficult to interpret.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 04:17:29 PM by Gutbucket »
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
made easy- >>Improved PAS table<< | made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12302
  • Gender: Male
Re: DPA 4060-61'S: HOW "OMNI" ARE THEY?
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2018, 04:17:19 PM »
They are very tiny mics. The mic's body influences only sound of very short wavelength from back direction. I guess the other omni mics have directional parameters at higher frequencies because of the larger body.

Just a theoretical questions. I wonder what dimension affects the sound. For example, whether the object the size of half-wavelength will affect the sound? And whether high and low frequencies behave differently?

Acoustic diffraction threshold for an occluding body is about quarter-wavelength.  Below that frequency the sound "wraps around", above that frequency the body casts an "acoustic shadow".  The effect scales linearly with frequency: 1/4 wavelength at 20kHz = 0.17", while 1/4 wavelength at 20Hz = 170"

You can use this and divide the answer by 4 to find other sizes/frequencies of interest- http://www.mcsquared.com/wavelength.htm
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 04:18:54 PM by Gutbucket »
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
made easy- >>Improved PAS table<< | made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline kuba e

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • *
  • Posts: 164
  • Gender: Male
Re: DPA 4060-61'S: HOW "OMNI" ARE THEY?
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2018, 05:22:10 PM »
Thanks for the link and informations. I found diameter of DPA4060, it is 0.23'', my Naks are 0.82''. That is, omni Naks becomes directional already at about a third of the frequency compared to DPA4060. BlindGuyEars, this is roughly equivalent to their polar plots, I visually compared them. If it is right, large diaphragm mics cannot be true omni, only in low frequencies.

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (28)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2551
  • Gender: Male
Re: DPA 4060-61'S: HOW "OMNI" ARE THEY?
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2018, 07:41:51 PM »
Short answer: Very, very omni, and it doesn't matter that you orient them with any precision.  They are as consistently omnidirectional a mic as exists out there.  In this lecture, Jörg Wuttke of Schoeps describes the DPA 4060 as a "perfect" omni microphone.

Longer answer: It doesn't matter since they remain almost perfectly omni through the treble, and also because of the way they work with the grids installed, which is the typical use.  Internally, the diaphragm is side-address.  With the grids installed, such as the low boost grids which come installed out of the package, they become end-address and however you rotate the capsule doesn't do a thing.  If you are using them without any grids such that the capsules become side-address, then the orientation makes a difference.  You would never want to actually use them this way mounted to your body or under clothing as you'll need the high frequency boos provided by the grid.  There are a few classical recording folks on Gearslutz Remote forum who use them without the grids to make the response more flat.  I am only recording classical / acoustic in the typical behind-the-conductor position as they are, but I prefer to keep the grids on and EQ in post later on.  This makes setup hassle free, as I just mount the capsules pointing straight out to opposite sides and

Gutbucket has a very helpful post which describes the difference between how they work with and without the grids here:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=147921.0
DPA 4061 | Line Audio CM3 | Naiant X-Q
Naiant PFAs | Shure FP24
Tascam DR-70D JWMod | Sony PCM-M10

Tascam DR-70D FAQ
Team Line Audio
Quote
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.    ///    If a composer could say what he had to say in words he would not bother trying to say it in music.
- Gustav Mahler

Offline fandelive

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 416
  • I'm a llama!
Re: DPA 4060-61'S: HOW "OMNI" ARE THEY?
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2018, 07:47:41 AM »
I usually tape with either 4060's or 61's attached to my shoulders, collar, etc.
[...]
I'm guessing spacing is still important... I usually try to attach to fairly far out on each shoulder.

Doesn't directly answer your question, but if you act as a human mic stand you'll get better results with mics raised at head level.

I don't think spacing from one of your shoulders to the other is enough for omnis to provide a significant stereo separation. Your best option is to record binaural.

You could clip your mics to the rim of your eyeglasses, to a cap/hat, close enough to your ears. Your head will act like a baffle and you'll get a nice stereo separation.
Mics : Sony ECM-717, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline BlindGuyEars

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 124
Re: DPA 4060-61'S: HOW "OMNI" ARE THEY?
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2018, 01:40:29 PM »
wow! thanks for all the informative replies, folks!

As far as being a human mic stand, I'm 5'6" only, so mics on shoulders works, but I'm blocked off by people all around.

I'll run some experiments with a baseball cap, sunglasses, to get the mics higher, using my head as a baffle etc.
Hmm, because I'm blind, perhaps I can say the weird things clipped to my sunglasses are some sort of nifty navigational aid... LOL

I'm guessing metal detectors and pat-downs will be the norm at the upcoming Slayer show. Jazz things I attend never bother with that stuff. I guess they're not expecting elderly security threats. :)

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.151 seconds with 34 queries.
© 2002-2018 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF