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Author Topic: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM  (Read 6793 times)

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Offline Galen

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Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« on: May 01, 2018, 11:37:06 PM »
Understand that laws vary State to State, Country to Country. Understand that to be convicted of copyright infringement the prosecuting attorney, if one is prosecuted (big if), must demonstrate intent for financial gain of the individual recording and/or selling the recording(s). But what about those people that do not sell their recordings which would be... most tapers.

When you purchase a ticket for a concert you enter into a contractual obligation via the ticket: there are rules associated with the ticket and you must follow such rules if not you may be ejected. Simple stuff. If you tape a concert with microphones you are recording the ambience, if you will, of the room. If someone catches you and audio taping was not allowed you have thus violated the terms of the ticket and can by all rights be ejected from the venue. A good friend of mine is a lawyer who has given me guidance on several aspects of this but laws again vary State to State. I am curious about how this translates throughout the rest of North America and potentially the rest of the world? I have been taping on various levels since 2000 with several failed attempts dating back to 1998. Since then, have close to a thousand shows under my taping belt and have been very curious about this issue.

I have been caught taping at: GWAR in 2002 (kicked me out, I gave them my MD), Tool in 6/29/2007 (snuck back in afterwards, different story) and in 2011 a 'tool of a taper' contacted the venue at a Puscifer show and they ended up calling the cops on me which sucked but I still taped everything I wanted to.

What about tapers who pick up radio frequency (RF) and/or IEM recordings? Does this violate wiretapping laws similar to recording a private cell phone conversation? Hard to determine, seems unclear, as far as we can tell there is not one tested case on the books - anywhere. If you record a private conversation in certain States that is not ok, in other States it is fine based. One argument is that if one is broadcasting RF in an enclosed space/property and someone records that frequency *outside* of that space within the legal RF spectrum (i.e.: 470-688) there is no law that does not permit that - like if you parked just close enough to the venue to pick up frequency. (If you recorded that inside the venue you would be subject to the terms of the ticket).

For those that actually know and can cite sources of information, not opinion and conjecture, any thoughts?
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Sony MD RZ700 (retired)
Sharp MD MT-180 (retired)

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Nakamichi CM-300, omni (Stealth/non-mod, my father's originals from 1978)
DPA 4061 > MPS6030
Aiwa CM-30
Core Sound Binauarals
Soundman OKMII-R
Marantz EM-8
SEN G2/3
Shure P10R (470-698)
Icom RX7

Offline Scooter123

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2018, 01:14:06 AM »
If you get caught inside a venue taping with an audience rig or IEM packs, you will be brought to security, questioned by police and if you are lucky, escorted out of the building. Your gear is a crap shoot.  You might get it back, might not.  Sure, you try arguing with the cops that this is the same as being out in the parking lot.  Give them a legal memorandum.  Good luck with that. 

If this happens in a foreign country, then anything goes.

Bottom Line:   Most of the people caught are turned in by patrons next to them or behind them that spot an errant wire or a red light on your rig.  After Manchester, I don't blame them,  If you honestly want to tape a major act audience or IEM in a big venue, you better have your "A" game on.  This is not some game anymore. 
Regards,

Scooter123

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Offline Galen

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2018, 01:00:27 PM »
I have been taping in one form or another for 20 years, have been caught several times and never had an interaction with police. Always security who threatened to take personal belongings (i.e.: equipment but I never did that). If you get busted taping a show using a DAT for example you do not have to give anyone your tape - you may choose to - but it is still your, personal equipment. Either way, you are getting kicked out of the venue. Citing the Manchester attack - remember, that was not from inside a concert but a guy wired up wearing a bomb who detonated it as people walked out of the concert. If one is going to reference actual shootings inside a venue perhaps the Bataclan or Dimebag Darrell's death in Columbus, OH in 2004. But all of that was totally off topic.

Friend of mine is a lawyer and he did a little digging into this for me. There are laws on the books, varying by State, pertaining to wiretapping rules and consent. This can include both hijacking a frequency (i.e.: cell phone) and record it or recording someone without them knowing. But then comes 'public spaces' meaning no one should expect privacy in public. If you are at a public event and record the sounds then that could be considered fair use. If you get busted by security at a private event you have violated the terms of admission from the ticket you purchased. But you have not broken the law.

We did some digging around and could not find any times a taper has been prosecuted simply for recording a concert. There are plenty of prosecutions resulting in bootlegged material because there was intent to distribute live recordings for a financial gain though. Thus the purpose of my post is to see if other tapers have stories or information to share on this.


If you get caught inside a venue taping with an audience rig or IEM packs, you will be brought to security, questioned by police and if you are lucky, escorted out of the building. Your gear is a crap shoot.  You might get it back, might not.  Sure, you try arguing with the cops that this is the same as being out in the parking lot.  Give them a legal memorandum.  Good luck with that. 

If this happens in a foreign country, then anything goes.

Bottom Line:   Most of the people caught are turned in by patrons next to them or behind them that spot an errant wire or a red light on your rig.  After Manchester, I don't blame them,  If you honestly want to tape a major act audience or IEM in a big venue, you better have your "A" game on.  This is not some game anymore.
http://www.collectiveunconscious.org/

Recorders:
Sony PCM-M1 (Oade Mod II) x 2, Sony PCM-M1 (stock) x 1
Casio DA-R100 (1991 model, only used when able to use DC)
Edirol R-09
Tascam DA-R40
Sony MD RZ700 (retired)
Sharp MD MT-180 (retired)

Microphones:
Nakamichi CM-300, omni (Stealth/non-mod, my father's originals from 1978)
DPA 4061 > MPS6030
Aiwa CM-30
Core Sound Binauarals
Soundman OKMII-R
Marantz EM-8
SEN G2/3
Shure P10R (470-698)
Icom RX7

Offline Limit35

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2018, 12:42:08 AM »
Can't one record IEM from outside? IEMs broadcast in UHF (or did?) so it would be a matter of getting a tuned antenna and a receiver and parking near the broadcast area of the venue and trying it out. I don't know if companies use digital or analog anymore which would affect one's ability to monitor the broadcast.

I am no lawyer, but I know I can legally listen to RF frequencies except cell phones. Receivers are sold just for that. It was a big deal when cell phones appeared in the 800 MHz range and scanners had access to that portion of the frequency spectrum. They had to be modified by the manufacturer, which was easily circumvented, or have that area completely unaccessible to the user. I believe you weren't suppose to listen or tape cordless phones either back in the day. In summary no, it is not illegal to monitor radio frequencies since, in the US anyway, they are part of a public radio spectrum that is leased to users by the FCC. State laws may cause trouble however. I remember a state banned scanners due to police lobbying, one problem is in NASCAR a lot of fans listen to their favorite drivers. Local police where citing people with radios as they caravaned into town, car antennas probably being a red flag. This was 20yrs ago in the upper Midwest somewhere.

If you are in the US, Google your local laws. Print them out and throw them in your gear bag. Other countries are not as RF monitor friendly.

Offline Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)

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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2018, 04:15:16 AM »
Can't one record IEM from outside? IEMs broadcast in UHF (or did?) so it would be a matter of getting a tuned antenna and a receiver and parking near the broadcast area of the venue and trying it out. I don't know if companies use digital or analog anymore which would affect one's ability to monitor the broadcast.

I am no lawyer, but I know I can legally listen to RF frequencies except cell phones. Receivers are sold just for that. It was a big deal when cell phones appeared in the 800 MHz range and scanners had access to that portion of the frequency spectrum. They had to be modified by the manufacturer, which was easily circumvented, or have that area completely unaccessible to the user. I believe you weren't suppose to listen or tape cordless phones either back in the day. In summary no, it is not illegal to monitor radio frequencies since, in the US anyway, they are part of a public radio spectrum that is leased to users by the FCC. State laws may cause trouble however. I remember a state banned scanners due to police lobbying, one problem is in NASCAR a lot of fans listen to their favorite drivers. Local police where citing people with radios as they caravaned into town, car antennas probably being a red flag. This was 20yrs ago in the upper Midwest somewhere.

If you are in the US, Google your local laws. Print them out and throw them in your gear bag. Other countries are not as RF monitor friendly.

Can't be done at Madison Square Garden but I have seen it done from a parking structure right above the stage.

Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2018, 11:21:01 AM »
Citing the Manchester attack - remember, that was not from inside a concert but a guy wired up wearing a bomb who detonated it as people walked out of the concert. If one is going to reference actual shootings inside a venue perhaps the Bataclan or Dimebag Darrell's death in Columbus, OH in 2004. But all of that was totally off topic.

This is a non-starter. We make that differentiation because we want to feel like it won't make a difference to us, but that's not the case. To everybody outside of the people-who-sneak-things-into-arenas community that was an attack on a show and warrants more security. Everybody is more vigilant about errant electronics and bomby looking things these days. Doesn't matter that the dude didn't actually get inside. Same way it doesn't matter that the Bataclan guys didn't sneak guns in, they stormed the gates. Metal detectors don't stop people storming the gates...

IEM tapers seem to be a very secretive bunch, but from the ones I've interacted with, it appears most tape from outside the arena. Once had a dude send me a photo of his rig in the trunk of his car. Had a full rack of receivers/recorders/antennas. Was pretty impressive...
Mics: Berliner CM-33, CA-14 card, CA-11 card & omni, AT-853, Sony ECM-907
Recorders: Tascam DR-60D, Tascam DR-05, Sony Hi-MD

Offline Galen

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2018, 12:33:20 AM »
Thank you Limit35 & AKA Mike B. Relevant and appreciated information. Whenever possible everything pulled from the outside, however, there are plenty of occasions where this is simply not an option. At least for most people 100% of the time, no place to park.

http://www.collectiveunconscious.org/

Recorders:
Sony PCM-M1 (Oade Mod II) x 2, Sony PCM-M1 (stock) x 1
Casio DA-R100 (1991 model, only used when able to use DC)
Edirol R-09
Tascam DA-R40
Sony MD RZ700 (retired)
Sharp MD MT-180 (retired)

Microphones:
Nakamichi CM-300, omni (Stealth/non-mod, my father's originals from 1978)
DPA 4061 > MPS6030
Aiwa CM-30
Core Sound Binauarals
Soundman OKMII-R
Marantz EM-8
SEN G2/3
Shure P10R (470-698)
Icom RX7

Offline Limit35

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Offline down2earthlandscaper

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2018, 12:45:31 AM »
Citing the Manchester attack - remember, that was not from inside a concert but a guy wired up wearing a bomb who detonated it as people walked out of the concert. If one is going to reference actual shootings inside a venue perhaps the Bataclan or Dimebag Darrell's death in Columbus, OH in 2004. But all of that was totally off topic.

This is a non-starter. We make that differentiation because we want to feel like it won't make a difference to us, but that's not the case. To everybody outside of the people-who-sneak-things-into-arenas community that was an attack on a show and warrants more security. Everybody is more vigilant about errant electronics and bomby looking things these days. Doesn't matter that the dude didn't actually get inside. Same way it doesn't matter that the Bataclan guys didn't sneak guns in, they stormed the gates. Metal detectors don't stop people storming the gates...

IEM tapers seem to be a very secretive bunch, but from the ones I've interacted with, it appears most tape from outside the arena. Once had a dude send me a photo of his rig in the trunk of his car. Had a full rack of receivers/recorders/antennas. Was pretty impressive...

CA Ugly2 preamp is a perfect example of a really bomby looking device!
Mics: CA-14(cards & omnis) and CA-11(cards & omnis) ; AT853's(cards, hypers, mini shotguns); Busman BSC-1 (cards, hypers, omnis)
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Offline heathen

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2018, 12:56:35 AM »
Where do these IEM recordings circulate?  Dime? I don't think I've ever heard one.
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Offline Limit35

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2018, 01:00:24 AM »
Citing the Manchester attack - remember, that was not from inside a concert but a guy wired up wearing a bomb who detonated it as people walked out of the concert. If one is going to reference actual shootings inside a venue perhaps the Bataclan or Dimebag Darrell's death in Columbus, OH in 2004. But all of that was totally off topic.

IEM tapers seem to be a very secretive bunch, but from the ones I've interacted with, it appears most tape from outside the arena. Once had a dude send me a photo of his rig in the trunk of his car. Had a full rack of receivers/recorders/antennas. Was pretty impressive...

I have never monitored IEM but I imagine you would have to deal with multiple frequencies, so multiple receivers would be needed for a show, active antennas would help pulling in a weak signal. If I was outside I would use a tuned antenna for each individual frequency. The benefit, or not depending on your preference, would be you would look pretty narc like with that rig on your car.

Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2018, 07:41:56 AM »
Citing the Manchester attack - remember, that was not from inside a concert but a guy wired up wearing a bomb who detonated it as people walked out of the concert. If one is going to reference actual shootings inside a venue perhaps the Bataclan or Dimebag Darrell's death in Columbus, OH in 2004. But all of that was totally off topic.

IEM tapers seem to be a very secretive bunch, but from the ones I've interacted with, it appears most tape from outside the arena. Once had a dude send me a photo of his rig in the trunk of his car. Had a full rack of receivers/recorders/antennas. Was pretty impressive...

I have never monitored IEM but I imagine you would have to deal with multiple frequencies, so multiple receivers would be needed for a show, active antennas would help pulling in a weak signal. If I was outside I would use a tuned antenna for each individual frequency. The benefit, or not depending on your preference, would be you would look pretty narc like with that rig on your car.

It’s a a whole process day of show. Usually involves finding freqs during soundcheck from what I gather
Mics: Berliner CM-33, CA-14 card, CA-11 card & omni, AT-853, Sony ECM-907
Recorders: Tascam DR-60D, Tascam DR-05, Sony Hi-MD

Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2018, 07:43:29 AM »
Citing the Manchester attack - remember, that was not from inside a concert but a guy wired up wearing a bomb who detonated it as people walked out of the concert. If one is going to reference actual shootings inside a venue perhaps the Bataclan or Dimebag Darrell's death in Columbus, OH in 2004. But all of that was totally off topic.

This is a non-starter. We make that differentiation because we want to feel like it won't make a difference to us, but that's not the case. To everybody outside of the people-who-sneak-things-into-arenas community that was an attack on a show and warrants more security. Everybody is more vigilant about errant electronics and bomby looking things these days. Doesn't matter that the dude didn't actually get inside. Same way it doesn't matter that the Bataclan guys didn't sneak guns in, they stormed the gates. Metal detectors don't stop people storming the gates...

IEM tapers seem to be a very secretive bunch, but from the ones I've interacted with, it appears most tape from outside the arena. Once had a dude send me a photo of his rig in the trunk of his car. Had a full rack of receivers/recorders/antennas. Was pretty impressive...

CA Ugly2 preamp is a perfect example of a really bomby looking device!

Yuuuup. Combine that with a wire coming out of your shift and a device with a red light that you keep looking at, and no amount of “he wasn’t actually in the building”is gonna do you any good...
Mics: Berliner CM-33, CA-14 card, CA-11 card & omni, AT-853, Sony ECM-907
Recorders: Tascam DR-60D, Tascam DR-05, Sony Hi-MD

Offline EmRR

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2018, 09:14:42 AM »
Recording RF/IEM would be very expensive and likely not yield a terribly useful recording; not everything will be in mic transmitter paths and IEM signals are not a mix anyone other than the performer would want to hear in context, certainly not out of context.  A receiver channel per capture; very expensive rig.  If you get a signal.  The scanning software built to work with many receiver rigs now would allow fairly easy identification, OTOH, wireless space is becoming so crowded it's also likely you'd get interference at distance in many places. 

 

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