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Author Topic: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM  (Read 6827 times)

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Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2018, 10:06:05 AM »
Recording RF/IEM would be very expensive and likely not yield a terribly useful recording; not everything will be in mic transmitter paths and IEM signals are not a mix anyone other than the performer would want to hear in context, certainly not out of context.  A receiver channel per capture; very expensive rig.  If you get a signal.  The scanning software built to work with many receiver rigs now would allow fairly easy identification, OTOH, wireless space is becoming so crowded it's also likely you'd get interference at distance in many places.

Definitely not true. Some of my favorite tapes are IEM tapes. Some amazing ones floating around (U2 ones in particular tend to be fantastic)
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Recorders: Tascam DR-60D, Tascam DR-05, Sony Hi-MD

Offline EmRR

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2018, 11:49:57 AM »
Recording RF/IEM would be very expensive and likely not yield a terribly useful recording; not everything will be in mic transmitter paths and IEM signals are not a mix anyone other than the performer would want to hear in context, certainly not out of context.  A receiver channel per capture; very expensive rig.  If you get a signal.  The scanning software built to work with many receiver rigs now would allow fairly easy identification, OTOH, wireless space is becoming so crowded it's also likely you'd get interference at distance in many places.

Definitely not true. Some of my favorite tapes are IEM tapes. Some amazing ones floating around (U2 ones in particular tend to be fantastic)

Sure, U2!  Every show is so well tech'd.  Not.  That's a full service experience, unlike most situations.  I've run a lot of monitor mixes, and I've never built one for someone that was something anyone other than them, onstage, would want to listen to. 
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 11:53:02 AM by EmRR »

Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2018, 12:45:54 PM »
Recording RF/IEM would be very expensive and likely not yield a terribly useful recording; not everything will be in mic transmitter paths and IEM signals are not a mix anyone other than the performer would want to hear in context, certainly not out of context.  A receiver channel per capture; very expensive rig.  If you get a signal.  The scanning software built to work with many receiver rigs now would allow fairly easy identification, OTOH, wireless space is becoming so crowded it's also likely you'd get interference at distance in many places.

Definitely not true. Some of my favorite tapes are IEM tapes. Some amazing ones floating around (U2 ones in particular tend to be fantastic)

Sure, U2!  Every show is so well tech'd.  Not.  That's a full service experience, unlike most situations.  I've run a lot of monitor mixes, and I've never built one for someone that was something anyone other than them, onstage, would want to listen to.

I've done my fair share as well and most non-vocalist IEM mixes are pretty solid IMO. Also, the shows that do get IEM taped tend to be large arena/stadium shows. So your level of teching isn't much of an issue... Just go on dime and search IEM. You'll find plenty of great sounding ones
Mics: Berliner CM-33, CA-14 card, CA-11 card & omni, AT-853, Sony ECM-907
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Offline rhinowing

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2018, 01:11:00 PM »
Where do these IEM recordings circulate?  Dime? I don't think I've ever heard one.
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Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2018, 01:31:01 PM »
Where do these IEM recordings circulate?  Dime? I don't think I've ever heard one.
Japanese boot labels

and dime
Mics: Berliner CM-33, CA-14 card, CA-11 card & omni, AT-853, Sony ECM-907
Recorders: Tascam DR-60D, Tascam DR-05, Sony Hi-MD

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2018, 04:12:07 PM »
Citing the Manchester attack - remember, that was not from inside a concert but a guy wired up wearing a bomb who detonated it as people walked out of the concert. If one is going to reference actual shootings inside a venue perhaps the Bataclan or Dimebag Darrell's death in Columbus, OH in 2004. But all of that was totally off topic.

IEM tapers seem to be a very secretive bunch, but from the ones I've interacted with, it appears most tape from outside the arena. Once had a dude send me a photo of his rig in the trunk of his car. Had a full rack of receivers/recorders/antennas. Was pretty impressive...

I have never monitored IEM but I imagine you would have to deal with multiple frequencies, so multiple receivers would be needed for a show, active antennas would help pulling in a weak signal. If I was outside I would use a tuned antenna for each individual frequency. The benefit, or not depending on your preference, would be you would look pretty narc like with that rig on your car.

It’s a a whole process day of show. Usually involves finding freqs during soundcheck from what I gather

Yep. 

Offline Galen

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2018, 05:26:19 PM »
I do not about y'all but 99% of every show I attend I pull wireless with the correct receiver but I do use a scanner to determine the frequencies. Overwhelmingly, I do not bring my gear inside except for a rogue AUD source for fun. Last shows I hit were AWOLNATION (4 x IEM sources including Aaron Bruno mix), Noel Gallagher's High Flying Birds (5 x sources - really great mixes), Morrissey (only two good mixes well one really and that is the keyboardist), A Perfect Circle (6 x sources all amazing but they had 12 total of choices), Elbow (5 x sources including Guy Garvey's mix which is pristine), QOTSA (5 x sources J. Homme by far the best mix), The National (4 x IEM but they have oddly poorly balanced mixes on an individual level), Paul McCartney (1 x Macca mix, inside pull, but McCartney only uses one earbud in his left ear), Gorillaz (5 x mixes), Sturgill Simpson (4 x) and that was just Feb 2018 to Sept 2017... so on and so forth over the course of years.

But I would put any since source of most any IEM I've pulled against a great AUD recording. I love great AUD recordings and still record that way when I have to. There are times when you cannot IEM tape because it involves so much extra stuff to sneak in and there is no way to tape outside - think most amphitheaters as they are usually a bowl and dip down thus at the bottom of a hill. I cannot guess what other people have share(d) in regards to current IEM's but the quality is definitely there if you learn how to effectively tape in such a manner.  That said, I do not do anything with the recordings partly because I've seen how crazy people get about these things. I saw a Tool IEM (sourced from a scanner! Come on yuck!) and it was pressed onto vinyl and sold on eBay. I didn't pull it but that put a poor taste in my mouth. There are a certain amount of tapers who do this. But I think that *most* of the more prolific RF tapers who know what they are doing are not trying to gain Internet acclaim because they do not care about that.
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Recorders:
Sony PCM-M1 (Oade Mod II) x 2, Sony PCM-M1 (stock) x 1
Casio DA-R100 (1991 model, only used when able to use DC)
Edirol R-09
Tascam DA-R40
Sony MD RZ700 (retired)
Sharp MD MT-180 (retired)

Microphones:
Nakamichi CM-300, omni (Stealth/non-mod, my father's originals from 1978)
DPA 4061 > MPS6030
Aiwa CM-30
Core Sound Binauarals
Soundman OKMII-R
Marantz EM-8
SEN G2/3
Shure P10R (470-698)
Icom RX7

obsidian

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2018, 06:07:29 PM »
Great discussion. I have enjoyed reading all the comments. It's a little sidebar to the topic, but I have noticed that as a stealth taper it is getting tough to get gear inside now. With walk thru scanners, hand wands and old school pat downs. I don't blame the venue whatsoever, no one wants to be the next venue to have an a major incident, so security has tightened. These days it's not just getting "in" but people in general are on the lookout so when someone see's wires or an strange looking device, they usually run to the closest security personnel.  I use to use the wonderful Naiant IPA (see picture) but this thing looks like some sort of "device" ... even the Church Audio Ugly has caused me issues.

I know some people have had no problems getting gear in, and good for them, but you are kidding yourself if you think things have not got a LOT tighter and I don't see it ever getting any easier.


Offline heathen

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2018, 06:18:58 PM »
Hopefully using a cell phone as a recorder will soon become as easy and reliable as using a dedicated recorder.  Once that happens (I'm confident it's only a matter of time), that will be one less piece of gear to sneak in since EVERYONE brings in cell phones.  (While some shows are trying to keep people from having their phones, those seem to be few and far between.)
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | AT AE5100s | AT853s (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3s | DPA 4061s | CA-14 omnis | Studio Projects CS5
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obsidian

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2018, 06:23:14 PM »
Hopefully using a cell phone as a recorder will soon become as easy and reliable as using a dedicated recorder.  Once that happens (I'm confident it's only a matter of time), that will be one less piece of gear to sneak in since EVERYONE brings in cell phones.  (While some shows are trying to keep people from having their phones, those seem to be few and far between.)

I spoke to one of the Security Personnel at a venue in ATL and they are going to start using this ...

https://www.overyondr.com/


Offline Galen

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2018, 06:28:41 PM »
obsidian...

Yes, I have been talking to people and I feel the exact same way. Venues where up to the end of 2016 you could walk right into with your taping stuff 'recording and geared-up' with zero security at the door now have metal detectors, wands, pat downs and a sense of a take no shit attitude by staff. I was at The 1975 in Detroit the night of the Manchester attack @ Ariana Grande show and first I heard of it was when Matt Healy spoke about it after 'Change of Heart'. That show really had some intense energy from the band. They are from Manchester and it hit home for them, you could hear it.

A few days later I drove many hours to Hamilton, Ontario about a year ago to see Tool. To note, I did record IEM of this and had to physically go below the ground into the parking deck to figure out the signal during soundcheck then got promptly kicked out of that area by security. Anyway. Getting into the venue, I had 1 (DAT Sony M1), 1 RF box, plugs + headphones, DPA 4061 + battery box, and a Sony M10. First security sent me to second level security where a cop watched a higher-trained person do the check on me...gave my cover story, made it in. They wanded me and I got felt by security... I had a lot of stuff to sneak in. Helps when you are closer to 40 than 20. Went to a family bathroom and got my stuff organized then went to a bar inside the venue where I stayed until ~10 minutes before the show started (had 2 beers over 2 hours), went back to the bathroom, started my sources and went to my seat. Recorded a great performance. Mix sounded superb and the AUD was awesome. Long drive back home - got back at 3AM, up at 7, took kids to school, went to work, crashed at night. But I almost got popped at the door and I've been doing this a long time.

A week later, went to the Pine Knob or DTE (Michigan) as it is referred to now. My best buddy came from NY for the show. No problem with security as we have connections locally. We had row 7 tickets - closest I have ever been to Tool. Great performance. Thing is, saw bomb sniffing dogs, armed cops inside the venue (never see that @ DTE) and the 'security' were checking people out if they had pulled out their phone. Intense stuff. Keep in mind, these were events just a week + from the Ariana Grande performance in Manchester, England.

Since the Manchester attack, I have noticed a very real change. To all the tapers out there, keep on doing what you want but know that your hobby is now significantly harder. If you are not feeling it now, great, I hope that you never do. But the music business is a business. Businesses want to sell whatever product they offer in order to make money. That is the bottom line. Tapers are lower level annoyances in the eyes of many bands, Tool included, and until now getting your gear inside hasn't had to be like breaking into a bank. There are now several items in use that venues and promoters have at their disposal to use. Yes, they are for weapons and whatnot but some of this newer implemented technology will pick up whatever equipment you are attempting to covertly bring in.

In October 2017, the night of the Las Vegas shooting, I took my eldest to see Paul McCartney in Detroit, MI. So it was me and my son going through metal-detector-airport-security-style for McCartney. None of this would've rang off bells even two years back. He gets through obviously fine, I had DAT, scanner, IEM box, wires, headphones, microphones... taping stuff with me. I had several security staff come to me, wands, another pat-down. I make it through of course because hey I am with my kid right but for those that maybe are not as well prepared... good luck.  At that McCartney show, I saw bomb sniffing dogs inside and outside the venue, unmarked security personal blending as attendees, armed police and at least one policeman w/what looked to me like an AK-47. But I don't know for sure. If I had my way, every American would have health insurance and people could have guns only if they passed yearly competency tests. So what do I know?

Maybe I am older, which I am, but the thing with taping these days is that I am glad I do maybe 90% of it remotely so I do not have to even worry about security anymore. Things are definitely different these days with taping.
Things have changed.

And I'm not just talking about the dumpster fire that is the United States White House under President Trump.

http://www.collectiveunconscious.org/

Recorders:
Sony PCM-M1 (Oade Mod II) x 2, Sony PCM-M1 (stock) x 1
Casio DA-R100 (1991 model, only used when able to use DC)
Edirol R-09
Tascam DA-R40
Sony MD RZ700 (retired)
Sharp MD MT-180 (retired)

Microphones:
Nakamichi CM-300, omni (Stealth/non-mod, my father's originals from 1978)
DPA 4061 > MPS6030
Aiwa CM-30
Core Sound Binauarals
Soundman OKMII-R
Marantz EM-8
SEN G2/3
Shure P10R (470-698)
Icom RX7

obsidian

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2018, 06:47:30 PM »
obsidian...

Yes, I have been talking to people and I feel the exact same way. Venues where up to the end of 2016 you could walk right into with your taping stuff 'recording and geared-up' with zero security at the door now have metal detectors, wands, pat downs and a sense of a take no shit attitude by staff. I was at The 1975 in Detroit the night of the Manchester attack @ Ariana Grande show and first I heard of it was when Matt Healy spoke about it after 'Change of Heart'. That show really had some intense energy from the band. They are from Manchester and it hit home for them, you could hear it.

A few days later I drove many hours to Hamilton, Ontario about a year ago to see Tool. To note, I did record IEM of this and had to physically go below the ground into the parking deck to figure out the signal during soundcheck then got promptly kicked out of that area by security. Anyway. Getting into the venue, I had 1 (DAT Sony M1), 1 RF box, plugs + headphones, DPA 4061 + battery box, and a Sony M10. First security sent me to second level security where a cop watched a higher-trained person do the check on me...gave my cover story, made it in. They wanded me and I got felt by security... I had a lot of stuff to sneak in. Helps when you are closer to 40 than 20. Went to a family bathroom and got my stuff organized then went to a bar inside the venue where I stayed until ~10 minutes before the show started (had 2 beers over 2 hours), went back to the bathroom, started my sources and went to my seat. Recorded a great performance. Mix sounded superb and the AUD was awesome. Long drive back home - got back at 3AM, up at 7, took kids to school, went to work, crashed at night. But I almost got popped at the door and I've been doing this a long time.

A week later, went to the Pine Knob or DTE (Michigan) as it is referred to now. My best buddy came from NY for the show. No problem with security as we have connections locally. We had row 7 tickets - closest I have ever been to Tool. Great performance. Thing is, saw bomb sniffing dogs, armed cops inside the venue (never see that @ DTE) and the 'security' were checking people out if they had pulled out their phone. Intense stuff. Keep in mind, these were events just a week + from the Ariana Grande performance in Manchester, England.

Since the Manchester attack, I have noticed a very real change. To all the tapers out there, keep on doing what you want but know that your hobby is now significantly harder. If you are not feeling it now, great, I hope that you never do. But the music business is a business. Businesses want to sell whatever product they offer in order to make money. That is the bottom line. Tapers are lower level annoyances in the eyes of many bands, Tool included, and until now getting your gear inside hasn't had to be like breaking into a bank. There are now several items in use that venues and promoters have at their disposal to use. Yes, they are for weapons and whatnot but some of this newer implemented technology will pick up whatever equipment you are attempting to covertly bring in.

In October 2017, the night of the Las Vegas shooting, I took my eldest to see Paul McCartney in Detroit, MI. So it was me and my son going through metal-detector-airport-security-style for McCartney. None of this would've rang off bells even two years back. He gets through obviously fine, I had DAT, scanner, IEM box, wires, headphones, microphones... taping stuff with me. I had several security staff come to me, wands, another pat-down. I make it through of course because hey I am with my kid right but for those that maybe are not as well prepared... good luck.  At that McCartney show, I saw bomb sniffing dogs inside and outside the venue, unmarked security personal blending as attendees, armed police and at least one policeman w/what looked to me like an AK-47. But I don't know for sure. If I had my way, every American would have health insurance and people could have guns only if they passed yearly competency tests. So what do I know?

Maybe I am older, which I am, but the thing with taping these days is that I am glad I do maybe 90% of it remotely so I do not have to even worry about security anymore. Things are definitely different these days with taping.
Things have changed.

And I'm not just talking about the dumpster fire that is the United States White House under President Trump.

You said it exactly. We (tapers) tend to forget that not everyone is aware of what a preamp is and stuff, so it DOES look very suspicious when they find it.  I was stopped at a Mike & The Mechanics show in ATL ... as during the pat down he felt my mic cables. I tried to make up some BS but to no avail, it was a no-go for me. So we went to the car, left everything and I used an iPhone w/ one of those Shure iOS mics. Of course, since they had already caught me once, the second pat down was as close to a sexual act as one can get without being bought dinner first.

I actually had a "friend" call me chicken, paranoid ... whatever (like I give two shits his opinion) and he brags about how he has no issues. All I know, is that this IS getting tougher.  I miss the old days, but what can we do? It's the world we live in.  So my new setup is just a small recorder (Zoom F1) and a set of small mics and I use the mic-power instead of a battery box. This is about as compact as I can get unless I go with some sort of internal mic or using the iPhone thingy.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 06:49:49 PM by obsidian »

Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2018, 08:02:32 PM »
Hopefully using a cell phone as a recorder will soon become as easy and reliable as using a dedicated recorder.  Once that happens (I'm confident it's only a matter of time), that will be one less piece of gear to sneak in since EVERYONE brings in cell phones.  (While some shows are trying to keep people from having their phones, those seem to be few and far between.)

I spoke to one of the Security Personnel at a venue in ATL and they are going to start using this ...

https://www.overyondr.com/

So, for people that have dealt with these, how does the entrance process work? If I pull a phone out of my pocket it goes in? What if I say no? Would they make me put in Munich iPod and other devices as well?
Mics: Berliner CM-33, CA-14 card, CA-11 card & omni, AT-853, Sony ECM-907
Recorders: Tascam DR-60D, Tascam DR-05, Sony Hi-MD

obsidian

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2018, 08:16:47 PM »
Hopefully using a cell phone as a recorder will soon become as easy and reliable as using a dedicated recorder.  Once that happens (I'm confident it's only a matter of time), that will be one less piece of gear to sneak in since EVERYONE brings in cell phones.  (While some shows are trying to keep people from having their phones, those seem to be few and far between.)

I spoke to one of the Security Personnel at a venue in ATL and they are going to start using this ...

https://www.overyondr.com/

So, for people that have dealt with these, how does the entrance process work? If I pull a phone out of my pocket it goes in? What if I say no? Would they make me put in Munich iPod and other devices as well?

I'm curious as well. The security guy I spoke to said that the number one complaint that they dealt with was people complaining about the person in front of them blocking their view by holding up their cell phone. It has become an annoyance for sure, and inadvertently it made it tougher on us tapers.

Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2018, 08:23:12 PM »
Hopefully using a cell phone as a recorder will soon become as easy and reliable as using a dedicated recorder.  Once that happens (I'm confident it's only a matter of time), that will be one less piece of gear to sneak in since EVERYONE brings in cell phones.  (While some shows are trying to keep people from having their phones, those seem to be few and far between.)

I spoke to one of the Security Personnel at a venue in ATL and they are going to start using this ...

https://www.overyondr.com/

So, for people that have dealt with these, how does the entrance process work? If I pull a phone out of my pocket it goes in? What if I say no? Would they make me put in Munich iPod and other devices as well?

I'm curious as well. The security guy I spoke to said that the number one complaint that they dealt with was people complaining about the person in front of them blocking their view by holding up their cell phone. It has become an annoyance for sure, and inadvertently it made it tougher on us tapers.

I’m mostly curious if this is an “all electronics in the bag or you’re not going in” sort of situation
Mics: Berliner CM-33, CA-14 card, CA-11 card & omni, AT-853, Sony ECM-907
Recorders: Tascam DR-60D, Tascam DR-05, Sony Hi-MD

 

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