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Offline TheMetalist

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Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« on: May 20, 2018, 09:41:06 AM »
I will soon purchase a pair of Schoeps MK41 verticals with active cables. In which direction should I put them in a DINa/ORTF configuration? Does it really matter?

Please, see images.



« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 10:35:43 AM by TheMetalist »
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Offline edtyre

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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2018, 10:24:09 AM »
Second picture is correct, except the red dots point at
the sound source, not up at the ceiling
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Offline TheMetalist

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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2018, 10:38:17 AM »
Second picture is correct

Thank you.

except the red dots point at
the sound source, not up at the ceiling

Changed it now. :)
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Offline rippleish20

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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2018, 10:49:45 AM »

There is nothing wrong with using the strategy in the second picture, but the more standard usage (to me at least) is place them upright on a horizontal bar. The red dots are then oriented based on what pattern you are using...

https://www.shapeways.com/product/YE635ELWF/din-schoeps-actives-vertical-capsules?optionId=61777746
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Offline TheMetalist

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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2018, 10:51:45 AM »

There is nothing wrong with using the strategy in the second picture, but the more standard usage (to me at least) is place them upright on a horizontal bar. The red dots are then oriented based on what pattern you are using...

https://www.shapeways.com/product/YE635ELWF/din-schoeps-actives-vertical-capsules?optionId=61777746

Ok. Thanks. Unfortunately it's not possible for me as I'm only doing stealth jobs. I should have mentioned that.
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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2018, 12:55:30 PM »
If I put the capsules like picture 1. How will that affect the stereo image?
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Offline edtyre

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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2018, 04:11:22 PM »
If I put the capsules like picture 1. How will that affect the stereo image?

All the questions in the world won't tell you much about how things sound
until you go out in the field and try it yourself. I have been running vertical caps in a hat for
a long time and use the second picture setup.

sample
https://soundcloud.com/edtyre/tedeshi-trucks-band-2016-10-01mk6edtyre
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRCdQgP9RgQ&t=0s&list=PLm9VWtRHsBE4AHCP-duig-gQMQ6-9vu3k&index=2
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 04:25:34 PM by edtyre »
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Offline robeti

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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2018, 04:32:43 PM »
If I put the capsules like picture 1. How will that affect the stereo image?

All the questions in the world won't tell you much about how things sound
until you go out in the field and try it yourself. I have been running vertical caps in a hat for
a long time and use the second picture setup.

sample
https://soundcloud.com/edtyre/tedeshi-trucks-band-2016-10-01mk6edtyre
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRCdQgP9RgQ&t=0s&list=PLm9VWtRHsBE4AHCP-duig-gQMQ6-9vu3k&index=2

sounds perfect.
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Offline TheMetalist

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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2018, 04:33:58 PM »
All the questions in the world won't tell you much about how things sound
until you go out in the field and try it yourself. I have been running vertical caps in a hat for
a long time and use the second picture setup.

Yes, but it's also nice to know some things in advance to avoid the worst rookie mistakes. If picture one is a huge NO! NO! then it will save some time if being told so. I'm also curious how these verticals are actually built. I want to understand how they work.

I will order a matched pair these week and I'll hopefully be ready to use them in 5 or 6 weeks when they arrive. Also waiting for my new Nbob actives. I so freakin' excited about this. Feels like forever. :D

Nice sample! Sounds great.  :cheers:
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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2018, 07:51:55 PM »
All the questions in the world won't tell you much about how things sound
until you go out in the field and try it yourself. I have been running vertical caps in a hat for
a long time and use the second picture setup.

Yes, but it's also nice to know some things in advance to avoid the worst rookie mistakes. If picture one is a huge NO! NO! then it will save some time if being told so. I'm also curious how these verticals are actually built. I want to understand how they work.

I will order a matched pair these week and I'll hopefully be ready to use them in 5 or 6 weeks when they arrive. Also waiting for my new Nbob actives. I so freakin' excited about this. Feels like forever. :D

Nice sample! Sounds great.  :cheers:

Welcome to the team.  You will enjoy them immensely. 

I would take Ed's advice.  He has run these for awhile and has lots of samples out there that are stellar.  Since I don't run V's I can't offer useful advice.

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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2018, 11:23:22 PM »
holla before you buy

i might be selling my literally unused 2-year old matched pair soon

Offline TheMetalist

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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2018, 02:58:51 AM »
Welcome to the team.  You will enjoy them immensely. 

I would take Ed's advice.  He has run these for awhile and has lots of samples out there that are stellar.  Since I don't run V's I can't offer useful advice.

Thank you! I'm sure I will. Now I have to save for a pair of MK4V's as well.

His recordings are great and I sure appreciate his input. I also received a nice pm. :)
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Offline tim in jersey

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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2018, 04:45:48 AM »
Welcome to Team Schoeps!

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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2018, 06:10:56 AM »
Welcome to Team Schoeps!

Thank you, Tim!  8) :guitarist:
It's not about fancy equipment. It's about the thrill, passion and hard work. Liberate the music!

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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2018, 07:43:11 AM »
I have now ordered Nbob active cables from Nick and a pair of matched MK41V's from the official Swedish Schoeps reseller. Can't wait!

 :drool:
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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2018, 07:53:37 AM »
Is MK41V side facing capsule? I think only theoretically. Maybe the configuration for side facing capsule in horizontal position is better in the first picture. The capsule housing is blocking high frequencies from opposite stack in the second picture.

I am just curious. Why do you prefer the second picture? And what is the advantage of side facing capsule in the horizontal position compared to forward facing capsule?

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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2018, 12:13:38 PM »
Is MK41V side facing capsule? I think only theoretically. Maybe the configuration for side facing capsule in horizontal position is better in the first picture. The capsule housing is blocking high frequencies from opposite stack in the second picture.

I am just curious. Why do you prefer the second picture? And what is the advantage of side facing capsule in the horizontal position compared to forward facing capsule?

This is also theoretically as I don't have any experience of these capsuls, yet. In my case the bold in your text might be a positive thing. I usually tape the stacks and it's possible that this can create a more separated stereo image. I don't want one stack to interfere with the other. I'm sure many people here disagree with me on this, though. :D

Perhaps you mean the top of the capsule? On the V's it's solid on the top. No mic there. I can be wrong. It has happened many times before. But I don't think so. That I'm wrong.  :shrug:

About a regular MK41 capsule vs vertical. What I have been told the later is easier to use when doing recordings without a microphone stand. Stealth. That's why I decided to purchase them. Soundwise they are almost identical.

I'm really the last person who should reply to these questions but I couldn't stop myself.  :cheers:
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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2018, 12:22:37 PM »

I usually tape the stacks and it's possible that this can create a more separated stereo image.

If you're taping the stacks, then you really don't care about "separated stereo image" to begin with.

Or put another way, if "separated stereo image" was a concern, then you'd be taping the show from the middle of the room - approximately equidistant from the left and right stacks.

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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2018, 12:36:00 PM »
Remember the Schoeps vertical caps on the STC ORTF bar are at 70˚ while 4's would be 110˚.  if you care about that kind of stuff.  41v's--awesome caps.  Good luck and have fun.
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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2018, 12:37:13 PM »
If I put the capsules like picture 1. How will that affect the stereo image?

Like Daspy I don't run these myself so with that in mind weigh my advice against those who do, but imaging should be about the same either way.  The most important thing with regards to that aspect is that the capsule faces marked with red dots face the same direction, with the same angle and spacing between the diaphragms.  How you achieve that is much less important, but perhaps not completely insignificant.

There may be some minor differences from diffraction effects around the capsule housings and cable connectors due to the asymmetries of the alternate horizontal capsule arrangements shown in your diagrams.  Those differences may or may not be audible to a really discerning ear, but I'd expect them to be minor.  If that's a concern to you, you're best bet will be to run them with the capsules oriented vertically as rippleish20 mentions, which is their intended orientation.  In that configuration the capsule housings are fully horizontally symmetrical with respect to each other and the asymmetries of the capsule housing will be in the vertical rather than the horizontal plane.

The larger issues which swamp those minor concerns are practicalities of set up and management of the arrangement.  Ed's recommendation and experience reflects these essential practical aspects.

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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2018, 12:46:05 PM »
if "separated stereo image" was a concern, then you'd be taping the show from the middle of the room - approximately equidistant from the left and right stacks.

...and that's exactly what I do. Not to be rude but what's your point here?
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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2018, 12:52:14 PM »
if "separated stereo image" was a concern, then you'd be taping the show from the middle of the room - approximately equidistant from the left and right stacks.

...and that's exactly what I do. Not to be rude but what's your point here?

When someone on this site says they are stealth taping and "taping the stacks" that typically means very up close to one side or the other not from the middle of the room.

Just semantics - nothing more.
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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2018, 12:56:59 PM »
if "separated stereo image" was a concern, then you'd be taping the show from the middle of the room - approximately equidistant from the left and right stacks.

...and that's exactly what I do. Not to be rude but what's your point here?

When someone on this site says they are stealth taping and "taping the stacks" that typically means very up close to one side or the other not from the middle of the room.

Just semantics - nothing more.

thank you, i apologize for misunderstanding the OP's terminology when he said he "tapes the stacks" and "doesn't want one stack to interfere with the other".

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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2018, 01:05:59 PM »
When someone on this site says they are stealth taping and "taping the stacks" that typically means very up close to one side or the other not from the middle of the room.

Just semantics - nothing more.

thank you, i apologize for misunderstanding the OP's terminology when he said he "tapes the stacks" and "doesn't want one stack to interfere with the other".

Sorry, but I took for granted that the images I added in the first post was enough for anyone to understand how I usually position myself at a show.
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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2018, 01:45:23 PM »
Thank you for the explanation.

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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2018, 01:50:01 PM »
When i open tape, i run MK6's or MK4V's in a vertical position pointed at stacks but
close to DIN or DINa, not exactly, but close. Results are great! But when i use the hat
the verticals caps lying sideways facing rearwards fit beautiful in the proper hat. I'm not
going to post pictures or go into any details, experimentation in the field will show you what works.
As far as this setup stack taping, there is a way to still get a good stereo image and tape in front of one
speaker or another. This sometimes depends on room acoustics. It's impossible to get the perfect taping seat
every time, and minor tweaks to this setup can produce amazing results for stealth.
music>mics>pre>recorder

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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2018, 02:03:36 PM »
Remember the Schoeps vertical caps on the STC ORTF bar are at 70˚ while 4's would be 110˚.  if you care about that kind of stuff.  41v's--awesome caps.  Good luck and have fun.

I'm planning to use a DINa bar from Shapeways made for the V-caps. Thank you! I'm sure I'll have a lot of fun. :)
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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2018, 02:05:09 PM »
If I put the capsules like picture 1. How will that affect the stereo image?

Like Daspy I don't run these myself so with that in mind weigh my advice against those who do, but imaging should be about the same either way.  The most important thing with regards to that aspect is that the capsule faces marked with red dots face the same direction, with the same angle and spacing between the diaphragms.  How you achieve that is much less important, but perhaps not completely insignificant.

There may be some minor differences from diffraction effects around the capsule housings and cable connectors due to the asymmetries of the alternate horizontal capsule arrangements shown in your diagrams.  Those differences may or may not be audible to a really discerning ear, but I'd expect them to be minor.  If that's a concern to you, you're best bet will be to run them with the capsules oriented vertically as rippleish20 mentions, which is their intended orientation.  In that configuration the capsule housings are fully horizontally symmetrical with respect to each other and the asymmetries of the capsule housing will be in the vertical rather than the horizontal plane.

The larger issues which swamp those minor concerns are practicalities of set up and management of the arrangement.  Ed's recommendation and experience reflects these essential practical aspects.

You always add some interesting inputs. Thank you! :)
It's not about fancy equipment. It's about the thrill, passion and hard work. Liberate the music!

"The music is your passport - Your magic key - To all the madness that awaits you." B.L. '86

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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2018, 02:08:37 PM »
When i open tape, i run MK6's or MK4V's in a vertical position pointed at stacks but
close to DIN or DINa, not exactly, but close. Results are great! But when i use the hat
the verticals caps lying sideways facing rearwards fit beautiful in the proper hat. I'm not
going to post pictures or go into any details, experimentation in the field will show you what works.
As far as this setup stack taping, there is a way to still get a good stereo image and tape in front of one
speaker or another. This sometimes depends on room acoustics. It's impossible to get the perfect taping seat
every time, and minor tweaks to this setup can produce amazing results for stealth.

I love your recordings so I will try to come as close to them as possible. :)
It's not about fancy equipment. It's about the thrill, passion and hard work. Liberate the music!

"The music is your passport - Your magic key - To all the madness that awaits you." B.L. '86

Offline tim in jersey

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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2018, 07:29:58 PM »
If I put the capsules like picture 1. How will that affect the stereo image?

Like Daspy I don't run these myself so with that in mind weigh my advice against those who do, but imaging should be about the same either way.  The most important thing with regards to that aspect is that the capsule faces marked with red dots face the same direction, with the same angle and spacing between the diaphragms.  How you achieve that is much less important, but perhaps not completely insignificant.

There may be some minor differences from diffraction effects around the capsule housings and cable connectors due to the asymmetries of the alternate horizontal capsule arrangements shown in your diagrams.  Those differences may or may not be audible to a really discerning ear, but I'd expect them to be minor.  If that's a concern to you, you're best bet will be to run them with the capsules oriented vertically as rippleish20 mentions, which is their intended orientation.  In that configuration the capsule housings are fully horizontally symmetrical with respect to each other and the asymmetries of the capsule housing will be in the vertical rather than the horizontal plane.

The larger issues which swamp those minor concerns are practicalities of set up and management of the arrangement.  Ed's recommendation and experience reflects these essential practical aspects.

You always add some interesting inputs. Thank you! :)

You can definitely trust Ed's advise.

Here's a show that we both did. We were practically shoulder to shoulder location-wise...

https://archive.org/details/ttb2016-02-18.mk4v.flac24
https://archive.org/details/ttb2016-02-18.aud.mk4.edtyre

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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2018, 08:13:14 PM »

You can definitely trust Ed's advise.

Here's a show that we both did. We were practically shoulder to shoulder location-wise...

https://archive.org/details/ttb2016-02-18.mk4v.flac24
https://archive.org/details/ttb2016-02-18.aud.mk4.edtyre

Thanks Tim, fun times at the Keswick.
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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2018, 08:18:26 PM »

You can definitely trust Ed's advise.

Here's a show that we both did. We were practically shoulder to shoulder location-wise...

https://archive.org/details/ttb2016-02-18.mk4v.flac24
https://archive.org/details/ttb2016-02-18.aud.mk4.edtyre

Thanks Tim, fun times at the Keswick.

Indeed. If I'm not mistaken there was also a Nextel Grey Kangol that night too, eh?

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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2018, 10:06:32 AM »
I confirm Ed makes great tapes!  ..Tim does too!

Tim, from the URLs it looks like Ed was using mk4 and you mk4V for that show.  I assume this was an open tape from your seat event for TTB, or was this done stealth for whatever reason?
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Re: Schoeps MK41V - In which direction should I put them?
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2018, 04:32:06 PM »
I confirm Ed makes great tapes!  ..Tim does too!

Tim, from the URLs it looks like Ed was using mk4 and you mk4V for that show.  I assume this was an open tape from your seat event for TTB, or was this done stealth for whatever reason?

Both stealth. Keswick used to tolerate open taping, but has since changed policy...

 

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