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Author Topic: SD 744T syncing SBD patch with microphones  (Read 1290 times)

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Offline nak700s

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SD 744T syncing SBD patch with microphones
« on: May 21, 2018, 02:39:15 PM »
Hey ya'll...

When using a Sound Devices 744T to record a 4 track recording while taking a line out of the soundboard and hanging up microphones, could anyone offer some tips on how to sync the soundboard with the mics so the timing would be perfect going into the 744T, and not be off?

Thanks in advance for any help.
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Normal: Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD 744T
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: SD 744T syncing SBD patch with microphones
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2018, 02:47:40 PM »
The general rule-of-thumb is 1 millisecond per each foot of offset (actually closer to 1.1 ms/foot), if that's what you're asking for.

As to the specifics of how to go about setting channel delays on a SD 744T, I'm not much help.
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Offline nak700s

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Re: SD 744T syncing SBD patch with microphones
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2018, 02:50:55 PM »
Thank you Gutbucket...that is exactly the info I'm looking for.  I don't know how to do the setting either...yet, but then again, I didn't think I needed to until now.  I'll look at the manual to see how, but didn't know how to figure out the difference.
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Normal: Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD 744T
Fun times: 3 Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD744T + 2 Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD744T
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
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Offline rippleish20

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Re: SD 744T syncing SBD patch with microphones
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2018, 02:57:26 PM »
Most devices limit the delay to 30 ms.
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Offline nak700s

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Re: SD 744T syncing SBD patch with microphones
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2018, 03:04:00 PM »
If I'm over 30 feet back, I have no business recording ;-)
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Normal: Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD 744T
Fun times: 3 Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD744T + 2 Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD744T
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
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Offline Gordon

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Re: SD 744T syncing SBD patch with microphones
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2018, 03:09:06 PM »
it's so easy to do in post since both sources are the same deck.  just shift the file (sbd) once to lineup.
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Offline fsulloway

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Re: SD 744T syncing SBD patch with microphones
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2018, 03:53:33 PM »
Yep to what Gordon said. Personally I see no reason to set the delay on the 744. More than likely you'll want to play with it in post anyway.
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Offline rippleish20

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Re: SD 744T syncing SBD patch with microphones
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2018, 03:54:04 PM »
If I'm over 30 feet back, I have no business recording ;-)

It's quite easy to be further than 30 feet back when you also have a soundboard patch and are also recoding an audience with the same deck (unless you get a patch from onstage and the microphones are on stage too).  I often find myself trapped in a less than desirable location audience taping wise in order to get a soundboard also...
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 03:55:52 PM by rippleish20 »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: SD 744T syncing SBD patch with microphones
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2018, 04:11:59 PM »
Personally I see no reason to set the delay on the 744. More than likely you'll want to play with it in post anyway.

Making a live 2-ch down-mix is probably be the most common reason, for streaming, patching out, and/or recording a scratch stereo mix to the same deck (DR-680, SD Mixpres) or to an alternate deck.  But yeah, more optimal to tweak alignment by ear afterwards in most cases.
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Offline capnhook

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Re: SD 744T syncing SBD patch with microphones
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2018, 04:57:52 PM »
If you need a LIVE MIXDOWN, you can get one of these to delay the SBD, and then feed AUD and SBD to a mixer/recorder.


http://www.hallresearch.com/page/ad-340


You can get up to 510 mS delay with this puppy.  Sometimes they show up for a good price, used on the fleabays.
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Offline nak700s

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Re: SD 744T syncing SBD patch with microphones
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2018, 05:06:50 PM »
If I'm over 30 feet back, I have no business recording ;-)

It's quite easy to be further than 30 feet back when you also have a soundboard patch and are also recoding an audience with the same deck (unless you get a patch from onstage and the microphones are on stage too).  I often find myself trapped in a less than desirable location audience taping wise in order to get a soundboard also...

Most of the time, the board is at stage lip, and my mics are also at stage lip, or on the stage micing a particular amp or overhead drums.  This question is geared for the times I am in a small venue that the SBD is on the floor, but it's a small enough venue that the SBD is 20-25 feet in front of the stage.  There are very few times that I would be further back than that, but it certainly happens 1-2 times a year.

I have never lined up the channels in post, because I never felt I needed to.  Now, I'm thinking that I may need to from time to time when recording in these small venues that I'm 20-25 back at the board.  How would I correct the timing in post?
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Normal: Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD 744T
Fun times: 3 Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD744T + 2 Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD744T
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

Offline capnhook

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Re: SD 744T syncing SBD patch with microphones
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2018, 05:08:42 PM »
20 feet is about my limit.....after that it sounds unnatural to not delay the SBD.
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"Don't ever take an all or nothing attitude when it comes to making a difference
and being beautiful and making the world a beautiful place through your actions.
Every little bit is registered.  Every little bit.  So be as beautiful as you can as often as you can"

"It'll never be over, 'till we learn."
 
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: SD 744T syncing SBD patch with microphones
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2018, 05:18:39 PM »
How would I correct the timing in post?

Select the tracks you wish to shift, then slide them along the time-line until they are correctly aligned with the others.  You may need to unlock the channels or tracks in your DAW software to allow this shifting movement.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline nak700s

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Re: SD 744T syncing SBD patch with microphones
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2018, 05:34:33 PM »
If you need a LIVE MIXDOWN, you can get one of these to delay the SBD, and then feed AUD and SBD to a mixer/recorder.


http://www.hallresearch.com/page/ad-340


You can get up to 510 mS delay with this puppy.  Sometimes they show up for a good price, used on the fleabays.

Nice toy...but the last thing I need is more equipment to carry in, and to drop another $350 on more gear!  I'm pretty sure if I need to set a delay, I can do it internally on the 744 (please correct me if I'm wrong).
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Normal: Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD 744T
Fun times: 3 Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD744T + 2 Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD744T
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

Offline rippleish20

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Re: SD 744T syncing SBD patch with microphones
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2018, 05:42:09 PM »
If you need a LIVE MIXDOWN, you can get one of these to delay the SBD, and then feed AUD and SBD to a mixer/recorder.


http://www.hallresearch.com/page/ad-340


You can get up to 510 mS delay with this puppy.  Sometimes they show up for a good price, used on the fleabays.

Nice toy...but the last thing I need is more equipment to carry in, and to drop another $350 on more gear!  I'm pretty sure if I need to set a delay, I can do it internally on the 744 (please correct me if I'm wrong).

A digital delay is selectable on each channel of the 744T

Sample Frequency Maximum Amount of Delay Available (per input)
44.1 /48  kHz         30 mS
96  kHz                  15 mS
192 kHz                 7.5 mS


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Offline nak700s

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Re: SD 744T syncing SBD patch with microphones
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2018, 05:55:45 PM »
How would I correct the timing in post?

Select the tracks you wish to shift, then slide them along the time-line until they are correctly aligned with the others.  You may need to unlock the channels or tracks in your DAW software to allow this shifting movement.

Huh, never did this before...but never felt the need either.  I will check this out with either the last or the next recording that may need shifting.  Thank you.
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Normal: Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD 744T
Fun times: 3 Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD744T + 2 Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD744T
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

Offline jbell

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Re: SD 744T syncing SBD patch with microphones
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2018, 06:00:02 PM »
I would do it in the post!!  Super easy and I always shift mine some.  If you zoom in on a peak it is really easy to line them up.  There will always be a bit of delay. 
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Offline capnhook

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Re: SD 744T syncing SBD patch with microphones
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2018, 08:15:01 PM »
7.5 to 30ms ain't shit for delay, good luck with that 744T, buddy.




Remember to to delay the video too, if'n you're doing it LIVE.  Have fun and make great tapes, nak700s.
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"Don't ever take an all or nothing attitude when it comes to making a difference
and being beautiful and making the world a beautiful place through your actions.
Every little bit is registered.  Every little bit.  So be as beautiful as you can as often as you can"

"It'll never be over, 'till we learn."
 
"My dream is to get a bus and get the band and just go coast to coast. Just about everything else except music, is anti-musical.  That's it.  Music's the thing." - Jeb Puryear

Offline tim in jersey

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Re: SD 744T syncing SBD patch with microphones
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2018, 09:28:01 PM »
Both sources are synched to the same clock. Set levels appropriately for each source and line 'em up in post. Piece of cake. Takes all of about 1.5 minutes once you get the hang of it...

Offline pohaku

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Re: SD 744T syncing SBD patch with microphones
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2018, 12:34:25 AM »
Audacity, for example, has a Tracks - Align Together command.  Select tracks, click and done.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 02:20:36 PM by pohaku »
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Re: SD 744T syncing SBD patch with microphones
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2018, 09:03:15 AM »

I have done it on the deck a few times with some success but almost always end up doing it by ear in post.

Speed of sound
343.2 meters/second
1125.7 feet/second
1.125 feet/millisecond

The math is a good starting point but getting it tight by ear is crucial. I use the estimated feet from the source then start to go forward and back 1 ms at a time until the comb filtering in the bass frequencies gets tight. You will know it when you hear it.

The phase scope in Wavelab helps too. Not sure why but different sets recorded with the same gear in the same place an hour apart from each other have needed different amounts of delay to sound right...
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