Topic: dvda + Sacd on its way out PT 2

[1st set only]

just went to bestbuy to pickup the new beck Guero dvda/cd. its great by the way!!!

they said that bestbuy will not order anymore dvdas and sacds. good thing this release is a bundled package(cd/dvda). do you all think that this will be the only way hi res music will be released in the future?

[Ed.]

off subject a little - is the guero dvd really dvda - i thought it was just dvdv - thats cool if it is.  also, how much was it?  they never listed the price in the ad.

wow, i can't believe they won't order anymore.

[nickgregory]

Dave Matthews is doing the smae thing on their new disc...really a great marketing strategy imo...I think it was like $15 for the dual DVDa/CD

[radioboy1977]

they said that bestbuy will not order anymore dvdas and sacds. good thing this release is a bundled package(cd/dvda). do you all think that this will be the only way hi res music will be released in the future?

that doesn't surprise me.  i don't think any of the best buys around me have stocked a new dvda or sacd title in over a year.  i get all my albums from www.acousticsounds.com or amazon.

[Tim]

of course most people shop for music at the big box stores... so if they are giving up on DVDA and SACD it's a pretty good sign that both markets are on the way out.

[BobW]

Dual Disk is fine by me, but folks on AudioAsylum claim that it can cause incompatibility issues.
Also be aware that the DualDisc standard does NOT specify DVD-Audio, just "something" DVD, even video or AC-3 crap.

See the thread on the exciting news about dvd-authoring freeware in the works.
I was able to make TS_Audio files from a Tony Trischka 24/96 (upsampled from 48) file.
So far, I can't get the ISO that I burned with it to play nice with my HK DVD-A.
It may be the disk, I need to get to compusa or stapleds for media.

[radioboy1977]

of course most people shop for music at the big box stores... so if they are giving up on DVDA and SACD it's a pretty good sign that both markets are on the way out.

i don't know, tim.  i was just doing some poking around at acousticsounds.com and it seems like there's a ton of classical music and the like being released on sacd.  it seems to me that it may end up becoming a niche market like vinyl has.  dvda, on the other hand, seems to stick more to popular music.  i'd say sacd will probably stick around, but not dvda.

[Tim]

I'm pretty sure one of the hi-fi rags was saying that even Sony owned labels have stopped putting out SACD's... I'll see if I can find some support for that

[nickgregory]

I actually prefer the sacds I have heard over the dvd-a format..it may just be the titles, but the sacd titles sound richer to me

[BobW]

I actually prefer the sacds I have heard over the dvd-a format..it may just be the titles, but the sacd titles sound richer to me

SACD fluffers will claim it is from the 1-bit DSD stream and lack of need for a COMB filter.
I doubt that either has an inherent advantage and the greatest difference is in the playback gear and the mastering.

My main complaint about SACD is that you will probably never be able to burn one.  That sucks.

[bkirby]

Anyone know about this JVC format called XRCD? It's "eXtended Resolution CD", and not able to find much info. about it. Is it only playable on JVC player?

As far as SACD, I think it blows everything else out of the water so far! I am hoping that we will be able to burn them sometime since Tascam has released that DSD recorder, but the sample rates won't reach as high as standard SACD! Maybe Sony and/or Phillips will finally give in and let up on their stronghold of the SACD format!

I think DVD-A is going to be fine for me for a while. I still like it for my purposes of putting two full shows in 16/48 from DAT on one disc for my listening purposes! Very convenient for me if I want to listen to any of my DATs without further destroying my DATs or my DAT player!

[macdaddy]

i always thought the hybrid was a good idea; it is too bad that didnt catch on...

hopefully in the fall, or next year, whenever the stones kick off the tour, the rolling stones records catalog will get the hybrid sacd treatment, just like the abkco catalog rec'd three years ago...

i love the sacd thing - and some of the titles i have come across (most recently nuddy waters' "folk singer") are absolutely phenomenal...

i do think that some smaller labels will keep producing sacds, even if sony doesnt. like msfl and the folks that bankrolled the yo! miles releases. those small companies have spent entirely too much money to get the sacd licensing and production squared away just to abandon it now. and that is fine with me - a few reissues and ...

not to mention that for the calssical music set - the format seems to be dominant. those releases will continue for quite some time...

i also think that it is currently THE way to transfer analog > digital, and i thinnk there is an untapped reissue market there...

but i think the chances of seeing new, mainstream releases on sacd are getting smaller by the day...

[1st set only]

off subject a little - is the guero dvd really dvda - i thought it was just dvdv - thats cool if it is.  also, how much was it?  they never listed the price in the ad.

wow, i can't believe they won't order anymore.

I believe it is a dvd and dvda at the same time. it has 24/48 files as well as PCM 2.0 and  a normal 5.1 mix on the same disc
my dvd player says DVD adudio when it gets popped in.

[scb]

Dual Disk is fine by me, but folks on AudioAsylum claim that it can cause incompatibility issues.
Also be aware that the DualDisc standard does NOT specify DVD-Audio, just "something" DVD, even video or AC-3 crap.

See the thread on the exciting news about dvd-authoring freeware in the works.
I was able to make TS_Audio files from a Tony Trischka 24/96 (upsampled from 48) file.
So far, I can't get the ISO that I burned with it to play nice with my HK DVD-A.
It may be the disk, I need to get to compusa or stapleds for media.

how are you making the iso?  just wondering if i can find something wrong in what you're doing and help out

[George]

Anyone know about this JVC format called XRCD? It's "eXtended Resolution CD", and not able to find much info. about it. Is it only playable on JVC player?

XRCD isn't really a format, just a different way of mastering (or remastering) cds, from my understanding.  I own a Dire Straits "Brothers in Arms" xrcd and i cannot tell the difference between it and the regular $10 cd that was remastered recently.  The xrcd cost me $30...at least the packaging is cool.  If you want, i can scan and host the booklet inside that shows the process JVC follows for mastering their xrcd's.  On the other hand, those mfsl mastered cd's do sound different than the regular aluminum cds. 

[BobW]

Dual Disk is fine by me, but folks on AudioAsylum claim that it can cause incompatibility issues.
Also be aware that the DualDisc standard does NOT specify DVD-Audio, just "something" DVD, even video or AC-3 crap.

See the thread on the exciting news about dvd-authoring freeware in the works.
I was able to make TS_Audio files from a Tony Trischka 24/96 (upsampled from 48) file.
So far, I can't get the ISO that I burned with it to play nice with my HK DVD-A.
It may be the disk, I need to get to compusa or stapleds for media.

how are you making the iso?  just wondering if i can find something wrong in what you're doing and help out

Yup, you nailed it. I made the ISO with Nero, no sort. That's bad.

I installed cygwin (again)  and mkisofs and used the sort.txt file and it worked like a champ.
I can't beleive that after all the hassling the true DVD-Audio solution comes from FSF.
This is great news..  Are you helping with the GUI project ?

The scripts from Dave Chapman work fine. Wrapping them up in a VB GUI should be a breeze, but I'd bet that they'd rather see something TCL-ish and portable.

I'm currently listening to a DVD-A of my recording of Tony Trischka (24/96) .  The thrill just came back.     

[Ed.]

off subject a little - is the guero dvd really dvda - i thought it was just dvdv - thats cool if it is. also, how much was it? they never listed the price in the ad.

wow, i can't believe they won't order anymore.

I believe it is a dvd and dvda at the same time. it has 24/48 files as well as PCM 2.0 and a normal 5.1 mix on the same disc
my dvd player says DVD adudio when it gets popped in.

yeppers, i see that now, i bought it today, haven't tried dvd-a yet tho.  wouldn't the dvd-v part of it be 24/48 tho too?

[ducati]

XRCD is a mastering chain, as gloco mentioned.  Everything is strictly controlled from beginning to end, with much attention to detail, which should provide sonic benefits.  They go to great lengths to avoid jitter in the chain.

I have about 10 XRCDs, and to be honest I don't like them.  They are very bright, IMO, and the mastering isn't done all that well.  Dunno, lots of folks LOVE them...  But I just don't like the sound.

As for SACD vs DVD-A, I haven't heard the best of either to decide.  I liked DVD-A better on the McCormack UDP-1 I had in house...  But that certainly wasn't a fair test of format vs. format.

This guy has been dinging SACD since it came out, he has an interesting series of article starting here:
http://www.iar-80.com/page17.html

Interestingly enough, the manufacturer of a high-end CDP had an in-house test of ~15 of the most expensive SACD players.  He compared it with his most expensive CDP.  The SACD players used SACDs, his CDP player used the CDP versions of each SACD.  Only one SACD player was preferred over the CDP.  To me, this says a few things: 1) SACD is far from mature and 2) 16/44.1 is maturing, and can be much better than we thought.  However, what it told him is he needed to build a SACD player...

[macdaddy]

XRCD is a mastering chain, as gloco mentioned.  Everything is strictly controlled from beginning to end, with much attention to detail, which should provide sonic benefits.  They go to great lengths to avoid jitter in the chain.

I have about 10 XRCDs, and to be honest I don't like them.  They are very bright, IMO, and the mastering isn't done all that well.  Dunno, lots of folks LOVE them...  But I just don't like the sound.

As for SACD vs DVD-A, I haven't heard the best of either to decide.  I liked DVD-A better on the McCormack UDP-1 I had in house...  But that certainly wasn't a fair test of format vs. format.

This guy has been dinging SACD since it came out, he has an interesting series of article starting here:
http://www.iar-80.com/page17.html

Interestingly enough, the manufacturer of a high-end CDP had an in-house test of ~15 of the most expensive SACD players.  He compared it with his most expensive CDP.  The SACD players used SACDs, his CDP player used the CDP versions of each SACD.  Only one SACD player was preferred over the CDP.  To me, this says a few things: 1) SACD is far from mature and 2) 16/44.1 is maturing, and can be much better than we thought.  However, what it told him is he needed to build a SACD player...

+t for the info.

i just skimmed the first page (does not look encouraging). i will have to sit down and read the whole thing carefully when i have more time...

should pass this on to doug oade - i would be interested in what he thinks about the commentary...

[George]

XRCD is a mastering chain, as gloco mentioned.  Everything is strictly controlled from beginning to end, with much attention to detail, which should provide sonic benefits.  They go to great lengths to avoid jitter in the chain.

I have about 10 XRCDs, and to be honest I don't like them.  They are very bright, IMO, and the mastering isn't done all that well.  Dunno, lots of folks LOVE them...  But I just don't like the sound.

As for SACD vs DVD-A, I haven't heard the best of either to decide.  I liked DVD-A better on the McCormack UDP-1 I had in house...  But that certainly wasn't a fair test of format vs. format.

This guy has been dinging SACD since it came out, he has an interesting series of article starting here:
http://www.iar-80.com/page17.html

Interestingly enough, the manufacturer of a high-end CDP had an in-house test of ~15 of the most expensive SACD players.  He compared it with his most expensive CDP.  The SACD players used SACDs, his CDP player used the CDP versions of each SACD.  Only one SACD player was preferred over the CDP.  To me, this says a few things: 1) SACD is far from mature and 2) 16/44.1 is maturing, and can be much better than we thought.  However, what it told him is he needed to build a SACD player...

Very cool info indeed.  I personally also believe that 16/44.1 is maturing (minus all the highly compressed shit) and i own quite a few cds that sound wonderful.   Too bad SACD wasn't given a chance to succeed. 

[Daryan]

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?p=157727#157727&sid=e70ca9fdf2d3e72e3ede289db11ed4e3

[Ed.]

going back to the beck dvd for a second...this was on his website...

i give beck credit for being innovative.

How to get the most out of your Beck Guero Deluxe DVD

The Guero deluxe edition is a groundbreaking collision of art and technology. To the passive listener, it is a visually stimulating journey into an amazing record. To the advanced user, it is a journey like no other. With a stunning 5.1 surround sound mix by Elliott Scheiner and visuals by video artists D-Fuse, Beck’s Guero goes beyond the typical album experience.

Guero is the first-ever global release of a surround sound album in simultaneous release of the standard commercial CD. As another first, there is not only one video for every song on the album but by utilizing the outer limits of DVD technology discussed below, listeners can access over 100 videos.

For all 13 songs on Guero there are 2 video streams (aka angles) and 4 subpicture streams. When you play E-Pro for the first time, for instance, you’ll see green jelly fish and a pattern of rounded squares in front of them. This is more than meets the eye, the squares in front of the jelly fish are not part of the video, they are actually part of subpicture stream #1. The subpicture stream is a layer in front of the video that can be turned on, off or even changed using the “subtitle” button. Usually on DVDs of theatrical films, this feature is used to display text of the movies dialog in multiple languages: subtitles. So, by pressing the subtitle button instead of getting French dialog at the bottom of the screen, on the Guero DVD you can reveal more of the video, access 8-bit images of becks photography, reveal stylized lyrics or even see cute little Atari-looking birds flying across the screen.

Continuing with the E-Pro example if you were to press the angle button on the DVD player’s remote you will reveal the second video stream on “angle 2.” As a common example of the use of this technology, many of you may have “heard” of (but I’m sure not seen it) this in adult film, showing different angles of the same scene. In this case, the second angle is a different visual angle/interpretation of beck’s music by D-Fuse. For E-Pro we go from Jelly Fish to abstract lines and imagery combined with 3-dimentional architectural-influenced designs.

So with these concepts in mind you can create visual remixes of each so each song using the subtitle and angle buttons on your DVD player’s remote control. To showcase this in for the passive user, a special feature of this DVD is that after you play it all the way through, the DVD will go back to track 1 with a different combination of angle and subtitle without even having to touch the “angle” and “subtitle” buttons: Key for parties, hipster retail, etc.

Other features on the disc include:
1. photo gallery of D-Fused Beck Photos
2. the capability to play in several automotive surround sound DVD-Audio players such as the Acura TL
3. more detailed information about the visual in the credits section
4. a couple of easter eggs featuring the official E-Pro and Black Tambourine music videos. When you find the Black Tambourine video, hit the angle button to see the “double easter-egg!”

:: :: :: ::

A small percentage DVD players may have problem accessing certain tracks from the Track Menu on the Beck - Guero DVD disc. This issue can occur because of the complicated nature of the D-Fuse content on certain tracks. If your player has problems accessing a particular track from the menu, you can easily workaround this problem by going to the track before the problem track, and either skipping or fast-forwarding to the end that track so that the player continues playing into the problem track.

[George]

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?p=157727#157727&sid=e70ca9fdf2d3e72e3ede289db11ed4e3

Thanks a ton for the link, looks like a cool site.  +T

[ducati]

Interesting, Bingenito (who claims "been there, done that, sold it on audiogon" for SACD) has the same CDP I do, and the same one I alluded to above...

I do think 16/44.1 can be damn good.  Heck, I just liestend to "Shake That Thing" a new(er) release from the Preservation Hall collection.  It's KILLER!!

[Evil Taper]

Even listening to old recordings mixed to 5.1 for movies brings a new brilliance to them...listen to the tunes in Pulp Fiction.

But doesn't anyone else think it's funny that companies are marketing a product as "DVDA"?  I know it's childish...but still cluckin funny to me.  (maybe others don't realise what that means in the hooood)

[Jammin72]

I can see Best Buy getting out of the Hi-Rez game.  The reality is that most of the folks that are into those formats only go there to buy TV's.  Since the Hi-Rez market is and will continue to be a niche market I see online e-Tailers as being the main source for the DSD software.  The bottom line is that for most of the buying public 128 kb .mp3's sound like music, if you're a big box retailer you cater to the market.  It's correct that you're limited to the source recording for the effectiveness of SACD but if you have a good source it sounds FANTASTIC!  Most of the buying public doesn't have the system to discern the difference nor the desire to do so.  For those that really do listen though. SACD is bringing true Audiophile source mateiral to the table that was only available in the highest end analog setups in the past.

[Tim]

so is Jammin72 Doug Oade?

you've taken us by storm

[Jammin72]

so is Jammin72 Doug Oade?

you've taken us by storm

Good guess!  Ben Nelson.    Worked there for 6 years though.  Have to admit much of his ideas rubbed off on me, the reason for that though is that my ears would always validate the information.   The Oades are wonderful people and Doug understands more about sound, electronics, code, and the combination of such than just about anyone else that I've met.

[Tim]

awesome, I actually didn't think you were Doug and almost guessed it was you Ben....

welcome, glad to have you here!!!!!!!

[ducati]

so is Jammin72 Doug Oade?

you've taken us by storm

Good guess!  Ben Nelson.    Worked there for 6 years though.  Have to admit much of his ideas rubbed off on me, the reason for that though is that my ears would always validate the information.   The Oades are wonderful people and Doug understands more about sound, electronics, code, and the combination of such than just about anyone else that I've met.

Hey. Ben...  You sold me my Gefell M300's and the WMod UA5...  Still lovin' that setup.  Thanks for the recco.  I still like NOS better than XY tho

[Jammin72]

Hey. Ben...  You sold me my Gefell M300's and the WMod UA5...  Still lovin' that setup.  Thanks for the recco.  I still like NOS better than XY tho

Glad you're diggin' it!  That's the great thing about owning a rig... you get to set it up the way that makes you happy!  We'll have to keep workin' on you though...

[ducati]

Hehe well I never did get the M300 fixed (the protective screen came off).  Eventually, if I ever finish my audio rig, I'll get back to the taping rig