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Author Topic: Hot on the heels of the KM18xD comes the CMD2U  (Read 8959 times)

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Offline 0vu

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Hot on the heels of the KM18xD comes the CMD2U
« on: November 25, 2006, 07:25:25 PM »
Neumann's KM83D has been in the public domain for ages and the first production units are shipping. So here's a digital output CMC for the Schoeps fans out there; it's been beta testing for quite a while but there's finally some official info on it.

http://schoeps.de/PDFs/Schoeps-CMD2U.pdf

I'm told that Schoeps are keen to avoid the supply problems experienced with the shotgun mic so they've been sorting out proper full scale production for these before going fully public. I'm also told that I'll have a production pair before Christmas. Looking forward to trying them.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2006, 09:32:44 PM by 0vu »

Offline John Willett

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Re: Hot on the heels of the KM18xD comes the CMD2U
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2006, 09:28:17 AM »
I knew this was coming and am glad that not only Neumann are doing AES42 microphones.

Now perhaps the mixer and DAW manufacturers will start doing AES42 inputs.  ::)

The Neumann converts at 28-bits and the Schoeps converts at 24-bits, though.

The Neumann then adapts the 28-bit conversion to a 24-bit AES42 output.

The Neumann and Schoeps are clocked differently, though.  The Neumann is clocked in the mic. and the Schoeps is fre-running and clocked at the AES42 device it is plugged into - as I understand it.

Offline John Willett

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Re: Hot on the heels of the KM18xD comes the CMD2U
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2006, 09:59:54 AM »
Interesting...  Be curious to hear how they sound and the price.  What devices can interface to that AES standard?

Does the Neumann digital system use special mic caps or does it also use reg caps?


The Neumann DMI-2 is made to the AES42 standard - it comes with PC software to remotely control the mics and outputs AES/EBU.  One DMI-2 controls two mics and they can be daisy-chained for multi-mics.

It should work with any mic. made to the AES42 standard - even the Schoeps.

I am using a pair of the KM 183-D with the DMI-2 - I have a week of piano recordings starting in 10 days time, so I will really be putting them through their paces.

I went to Neumann Berlin a couple of weeks ago and saw what the mics really could do and ordered a pair on the spot.

The KM-D series capsules are basically the same as the 180 analogue series (and the same capsule as the KM 100 series) but the analogue series had part of the acoustic bit of the mic. in the body.  So Neumann have done a new capsule that is interchangeable with the acoustic part fully built into the capsule.

This will become a full series like the KM100 series.

Does this answer you OK?

Offline John Willett

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Re: Hot on the heels of the KM18xD comes the CMD2U
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2006, 11:02:13 AM »
Thanks for the info, John.  I assume you'll be comparing them to conventional Neumanns?

No need - the KM 183-D has the same capsule as the KM 183 - so they will basically sound identical in that respect.

But the digital converts at 28-bits and has a greater headroom and lower noise.

It has a built-in limiter so it won't overload - and I have heard what happens compared with a specially prepared one without a limiter.  It also has a built-in compressor/limiter which is user adjustable on a PC via the DMI-2.

Hugh Robjons reviewed the KM 184-D in LineUp magazine (latest issue) and Alistair McGhee reviewed the set in a recent issue of Audio Media - both these are UK magazines.

Offline John Willett

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Re: Hot on the heels of the KM18xD comes the CMD2U
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2006, 11:08:50 AM »
won't this "date" the mic, and even go so far as to make them archaic, as things develop and change in the world of recording?


No.

The Neumann uses interchangeable capsules and the firmware can be easily updated.

The worst will be that a future KM-D module would have increased memory so that you could have a built-in delay - but all that would do is to mean a change in that module only - and only if you needed the extra facility.

The same would be true of the Schoeps.

AES42 is an internationally agreed spec. that will be around for a long time.

Manufacturers like Neumann and Schoeps don't do "here today, gone tomorrow" products.

I have put my own money into my stereo set of KM 183-Ds, and I don't spend my hard-earned cash lightly (must be the small bit of Scottish blood in me ;) )

So, these will be long term investments - like any good mic.


Offline JasonSobel

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Re: Hot on the heels of the KM18xD comes the CMD2U
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2006, 11:32:48 AM »
won't this "date" the mic, and even go so far as to make them archaic, as things develop and change in the world of recording?


No.

The Neumann uses interchangeable capsules and the firmware can be easily updated.

The worst will be that a future KM-D module would have increased memory so that you could have a built-in delay - but all that would do is to mean a change in that module only - and only if you needed the extra facility.

The same would be true of the Schoeps.

AES42 is an internationally agreed spec. that will be around for a long time.

Manufacturers like Neumann and Schoeps don't do "here today, gone tomorrow" products.

I have put my own money into my stereo set of KM 183-Ds, and I don't spend my hard-earned cash lightly (must be the small bit of Scottish blood in me ;) )

So, these will be long term investments - like any good mic.



I think what Moke was getting at, and I tend to agree with him, is that A/D converters are improving fairly rapidly.  a top-of-the-line A/D converter from 10 or 15 years ago certainly isn't top of the line anymore.  on the other hand, a high quality analog mic will remain a high quality analog mic.  that's why people love some old vintage mics - they still sound great.  (and I don't mean to imply that these new digital mics from neumann and schoeps won't sound great).  so if you stick with analog mics, you'll always be able to use your A/D converter of choice.  where-as with the digital mics - they may sounds great - but I'd be willing to bet that A/D converters in 10 or 15 years will sound better than they do today.  so, with the digital mics, you will someday be "stuck" with older A/D converters.

thoughts?

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Hot on the heels of the KM18xD comes the CMD2U
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2006, 11:42:51 AM »
Very interesting.  Seems like this might be one technology path to take to achieve lower analog noise and therefore broader dynamic range to approach true 24-bit recording.  Based on the specs, they're not there yet (115 dB dynamic range for the CMD2U, 122 dB for the KM180D), but they're in good shape at the moment.
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Offline John Willett

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Re: Hot on the heels of the KM18xD comes the CMD2U
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2006, 12:02:36 PM »
I think what Moke was getting at, and I tend to agree with him, is that A/D converters are improving fairly rapidly.  a top-of-the-line A/D converter from 10 or 15 years ago certainly isn't top of the line anymore.  on the other hand, a high quality analog mic will remain a high quality analog mic.  that's why people love some old vintage mics - they still sound great.  (and I don't mean to imply that these new digital mics from neumann and schoeps won't sound great).  so if you stick with analog mics, you'll always be able to use your A/D converter of choice.  where-as with the digital mics - they may sounds great - but I'd be willing to bet that A/D converters in 10 or 15 years will sound better than they do today.  so, with the digital mics, you will someday be "stuck" with older A/D converters.

thoughts?

The Neumann uses a patented state-of-the-art 28-bit converter - it should be many years before that gets superseded.  When a good 28-bit chip becomes generally available it will, no doubt, be included in the production version.

AES42 dictates a 24-bit output and this will stay as it is for several years - if it eventually gets amended the new spec would be included in later versions.  It may be then possible to modify earlier KM-Ds to have the 28-bit outputted I am not sure at this stage.

Sennheiser bought out the Orpheus headphones with integral D/A about 10 years ago (or more) and that DAC is still one of the best sounding around, even after all this time.  So do it properly at the start and it may not be outdated so quickly.


What you forget about mic pres and external A/D converters is that you loose about 25dB of the mics dynamic range due to the headroom you have to allow for peaks.

Having a 28-bit A/D at the mic. capsule, you get the full 130dB dynamic range of the capsule and a digital peak limiter in the mic. prevents overload distortion.

But remember - a KM-D module is about a quarter of the price of your PC and you happily bin your PC every couple of years and get a new one.  At the very worse, the KM-D would last at least 10 years before it needs changing I would have thought (likely much longer), so it is still cheap at the price.

All the mic. heads, clips, remote cables, etc. of the system would not need changing - so it is definitely worth investing in.  I put my own cash into it, and I do not like investing in stuff that's will go quickly (except the bl**dy PC  >:( ).

Does this answer you OK?


Offline John Willett

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Re: Hot on the heels of the KM18xD comes the CMD2U
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2006, 12:08:22 PM »
Very interesting.  Seems like this might be one technology path to take to achieve lower analog noise and therefore broader dynamic range to approach true 24-bit recording.  Based on the specs, they're not there yet (115 dB dynamic range for the CMD2U, 122 dB for the KM180D), but they're in good shape at the moment.

I think you'll find that the limiting factor is the analogue capsule rather than the digits.

Neumann did not build a digital mic. until the point that it had better resolution than the analogue counterpart.

So - NOW - the digital version is better than the analogue.

Offline mmedley.

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Re: Hot on the heels of the KM18xD comes the CMD2U
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2006, 08:37:39 PM »
I want some of the Schoeps digi bodies.
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Offline BC

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Re: Hot on the heels of the KM18xD comes the CMD2U
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2006, 09:08:36 PM »
Thats all well and good if you like the sound that Neumann/Sennheiser, or, Schoeps have derived,.. without the possibility of adding texture/color, etc. from other outboard pieces of gear, prior to digitizing (not to mention the added texturing and coloring that can be brought into play at the adc).

I guess with these you will need to add your flavors in post using different effects/plugins. Seems kinda strange to me but we'll have to see how it turns out. I'm wondering how well these will catch on, given that lots of people/studios have their favorite mic pres, channel strips, and AD convertors, etc...

I never really heard much about the solution-D mic that Neumann introduced a few years back.
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Offline muj

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Re: Hot on the heels of the KM18xD comes the CMD2U
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2006, 02:55:02 AM »
Neumann's KM83D has been in the public domain for ages and the first production units are shipping. So here's a digital output CMC for the Schoeps fans out there; it's been beta testing for quite a while but there's finally some official info on it.

http://schoeps.de/PDFs/Schoeps-CMD2U.pdf

I'm told that Schoeps are keen to avoid the supply problems experienced with the shotgun mic so they've been sorting out proper full scale production for these before going fully public. I'm also told that I'll have a production pair before Christmas. Looking forward to trying them.


hmm..not quite new news

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=40789.0

Offline muj

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Re: Hot on the heels of the KM18xD comes the CMD2U
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2006, 02:56:25 AM »
Erik sikkema has been running these schoeps for a year now ( the prototypes ofcourse) ;D

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Hot on the heels of the KM18xD comes the CMD2U
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2006, 09:57:29 AM »
I want some of the Schoeps digi bodies.

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Offline ingsy

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Re: Hot on the heels of the KM18xD comes the CMD2U
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2006, 09:34:34 AM »
sorry if i should have posted this somewhere else - but for the KN18xD - would it be possible to run 2 of these (i.e. stereo) into a digitial recorder w/ no PC interface?
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Offline John Willett

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Re: Hot on the heels of the KM18xD comes the CMD2U
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2006, 05:11:29 AM »
sorry if i should have posted this somewhere else - but for the KN18xD - would it be possible to run 2 of these (i.e. stereo) into a digitial recorder w/ no PC interface?

Yes and no.

If the digital recorder has proper AES42 inputs, then the answer is "yes you can" - but these don't exist yet.

You can certainly run two into a recorder without a PC, but you would need the DMI--2 interface to clock the two microphones to the same clock time (you do not have to use a PC as the last settings are saved in the microphones - just make sure you set them before you go).

I would guess you could run two microphones with two of the connection kits to a recorder that has two AES/EBU or two S/PDIF inputs; but the recorder would have to do the clocking.

Mention has been made to Neumann about doing a battery portable stereo connection kit that will lock both microphones to the same clock time.

I hope this helps.

I was recording all last week with a pair of the KM 183-D into a Fostex FR-2 via the DMI-2 and it went very well.  We were amazed how quiet (self noise) they are - every thime we listened to a take we kept wondering if it was working - until the music started


Offline ingsy

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Re: Hot on the heels of the KM18xD comes the CMD2U
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2006, 06:08:45 AM »
sorry if i should have posted this somewhere else - but for the KN18xD - would it be possible to run 2 of these (i.e. stereo) into a digitial recorder w/ no PC interface?

Yes and no.
If the digital recorder has proper AES42 inputs, then the answer is "yes you can" - but these don't exist yet.
You can certainly run two into a recorder without a PC, but you would need the DMI--2 interface to clock the two microphones to the same clock time (you do not have to use a PC as the last settings are saved in the microphones - just make sure you set them before you go).
I would guess you could run two microphones with two of the connection kits to a recorder that has two AES/EBU or two S/PDIF inputs; but the recorder would have to do the clocking.
Mention has been made to Neumann about doing a battery portable stereo connection kit that will lock both microphones to the same clock time.
I hope this helps.
I was recording all last week with a pair of the KM 183-D into a Fostex FR-2 via the DMI-2 and it went very well.  We were amazed how quiet (self noise) they are - every thime we listened to a take we kept wondering if it was working - until the music started

thanks for the info.  since the dmi-2 doesn't appear to be battery powerable, and no recorders currently exist w/ proper AES42 inputs, then this solution doesn't seem ready for the typical recordings most of us do here (i.e. stereo w/ no plug in power).  i don't know of any recorder w/ 2 S/PDIF inputs.  lets hope they build that battery portable stereo connection kit.  thanks again. 
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Offline John Willett

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Re: Hot on the heels of the KM18xD comes the CMD2U
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2006, 09:37:58 AM »
  i don't know of any recorder w/ 2 S/PDIF inputs.   

There's one coming next year (well, two AES/EBU inputs I understand).  ;)

I'm going to get one as soon as it's available.  ;D

Euro launch will be the AES in Wien (Vienna) in May '07 and whatever the American show is just before that date (NAMM?).

 

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