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Author Topic: Need feedback on Audix M1255B-S (micro shotguns) ..come on people....someone ?  (Read 12835 times)

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Offline mterry

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If you need a contact @ audix let me know. Ill get you in touch with cliff castle, he is the go-to guy there.
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Offline igene

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Yes, I'd like to talk to someone at AUDIX.
thanks.


« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 09:05:43 PM by igene »
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Offline igene

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THIS REALLY LAME....NO ONE HAS HEARD/USED/TRIED THESE...?

I'd ask the mods to move this topic to the appropriate subforum (Microphones) before calling fellow TS'ers lame. Just my $.02...

Actually... The situation is Lame, not the people.
Just to be clear !
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Offline DSatz

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"Shotgun" isn't a directional pattern; it's a way of constructing a microphone by placing an interference tube in front of the capsule for added directionality at high(er) frequencies. The interference tube only has an effect above a transition frequency that's inversely proportional to its length--or to put it another way, the tube has an effect only on sound wavelengths that are shorter than the tube itself is. Below that transition frequency, the sound waves simply flow around the tube, and the microphone is just an ordinary directional microphone.

Shotgun microphones are useful for increasing the intelligibility of speech pickup at moderate distances, since that depends greatly on the articulation of consonants (critical frequencies ca. 2 - 4 kHz). You can cover that frequency region with a shotgun mike of reasonable length, but to cover the frequency range of most music, the tube would need to be on the order of 10 to 20 feet long--which I don't think fits the stealth profile exactly.

The interference tube isn't 100% acoustically opaque. It creates something like a Moiré lens effect--above the transition frequency the microphone's sensitivity can vary greatly by as much as 10 dB in response to small changes in angle or frequency. The result isn't a smooth, narrow pattern; it's a choppy pattern with enormous peaks and dips in it. This inevitably means that the frequency response at any given angle off-axis will have similar peaks and dips. Most manufacturers don't show this in any detail in their spec sheets, but the longer the tube, the more it's so.

This makes the quality of reverberant sound pickup at high frequencies a real concern--only the very best multi-thousand-dollar shotguns have decent sound quality off axis, and those tend to be about 10 to 12 inches in length rather than the longer type. The longer ones cover more of the midrange of the human voice, but they mess up the off-axis response even worse. Plus the longer the tube, the farther the actual capsule is from the sound source. Professionals don't use shotgun microphones from across a room, so that difference in actual miking distance matters, and long shotguns are used only when there's no other choice.

Again, at the distances and in the situations where professional film and video sound recordists use them, they can be OK for speech and effects pickup, but the physics just aren't in their favor for wide-range music pickup at typical recording distances in a normally reverberant space.

Stereo just adds a whole other layer of why people should learn what shotguns actually are and how they actually work. The usual coincident or closely-spaced stereo miking arrangements are all based on the assumption that the microphones have essentially the same directional pattern across the audio frequency range--which is exactly what shotgun microphones don't and can't have (without extra capsules and fancy DSP for a few extra thou). M/S recording allows the M microphone to be any kind that you like, and stereo recordings (even of music) are sometimes made with a shotgun generating the M signal. But it still has to be a good microphone in a good position--one that could give you a musically satisfying mono recording if it were placed by itself in the place where you plan to put it.

Executive summary: If you're too far away from the sound sources for a good recording, then don't imagine that using a pair of shotgun mikes can make up for that. They more likely will just make things worse.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 08:45:29 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Gutbucket

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Thanks for the clarifying input.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline igene

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Then why have I heard lots of "shotgun" recordings that sound really good.
Of course they don't sound like a cardioid recording, missing a lot of room reflection and side ambient sound,
but not bad.

[for instance Nak 700, sennheiser ME66, neumann KMR81IMT and especially the SCHOEPS CMIT 5U]

These are longer type mics than the one I'm discussing, that allow for the necessary length to achieve the the side
(and some rear) rejection.

I wonder how something this small can begin to achieve the same pattern ?
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Offline Walstib62

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Then why have I heard lots of "shotgun" recordings that sound really good.
Of course they don't sound like a cardioid recording, missing a lot of room reflection and side ambient sound,
but not bad.

[for instance Nak 700, sennheiser ME66, neumann KMR81IMT and especially the SCHOEPS CMIT 5U]

These are longer type mics than the one I'm discussing, that allow for the necessary length to achieve the the side
(and some rear) rejection.

I wonder how something this small can begin to achieve the same pattern ?
I don't know for sure, but it is possible that Audix has taken some license in the term "shotgun". The actual pickup pattern may be very narrow, and more akin to a Hyper card. If you try it, I'd like to hear what it sound like. It's possible that a 4 channel recording with this mic and a pair of cards or even omni's would sound pretty good(?)

Offline igene

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Actually, that's what I was hoping to eventually try if I get these.
A pair of large diaphram mics and these little shotguns...
2 separate recordings and matrix them at home.
Each mic type providing what the other is lacking (mixed together).
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Offline Gutbucket

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Then why have I heard lots of "shotgun" recordings that sound really good.
Of course they don't sound like a cardioid recording, missing a lot of room reflection and side ambient sound,
but not bad.

Maybe they were really recorded with hypers, that people incorrectly called 'shotguns'  ;)


Quote
..especially the SCHOEPS CMIT 5U..


..especially $$$$


Quote
These are longer type mics than the one I'm discussing, that allow for the necessary length to achieve the the side
(and some rear) rejection.

I wonder how something this small can begin to achieve the same pattern ?

Did you read any of the recent posts describing what shotguns are and how interference tubes work?


Actually, that's what I was hoping to eventually try if I get these.
A pair of large diaphram mics and these little shotguns hypers...
2 separate recordings and matrix them at home.
Each mic type providing what the other is lacking (mixed together).

FTFY  ;)
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline DSatz

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igene, you asked:

> I wonder how something this small can begin to achieve the same pattern ?

It doesn't. IT CAN'T. End of story. Audix doesn't use an interference tube [edited later to add: of sufficient length to matter], and their marketing material misuses the term "shotgun." This isn't some wonder of science for which an explanation should be sought; [edited later to say:] it's a severe marketing exaggeration, possibly based on not understanding how shotgun microphones actually work.


> Then why have I heard lots of "shotgun" recordings that sound really good.

Good-sounding recordings can be made with shotgun microphones just as they can be made with almost any equipment that basically works at all, if the deficiencies of the recording method tend to compensate for deficiencies in the original sound. You probably don't know what the original sound was like, or whether the recordings that you like reproduce the original sound accurately--which is not likely for the reasons stated above, as well as others that I didn't go into (particularly the very "rolled off" high-frequency response that is typical of shotgun microphones in a diffuse sound field).

More likely, the microphones changed the original sound picture into something quite different from what it was originally, and you happen to like the outcome. The skill of the people who made the recordings is also a big factor, since if you work with a certain type of microphone long enough and listen carefully enough to what you are doing, you can make the best of anything you have.

--best regards
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 10:52:03 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline igene

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Although no one has actually used or listened to the mics,
the input on shotgun style mics is really helpful.
I learned some things I didn't know, and some that I had forgot.

Someone promised to connect me to an Audix guy ?

After all the input, I'm thinking that the 1255-HC is probably a better choice for a truer reproduction of a wider range of frequencies.
It's just a slightly narrowed pickup that is pretty close to the real thing (close enough) without being too "roomy",
(with higher sensitivity and RF immunity).

I have AKG SE393's, and I love the way they sound.




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Leela : Well, if you think it's a good idea.
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Offline igene

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sent an email to audix
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Offline igene

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Results of the emails >




From: i.Gene [mailto:igene@frontiernet.net]
Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 10:22 PM
To: Cliff Castle
Subject: Audix m1255-S vs. m1255-HC

 
Hi,

I've been trying to get info on these mics, but it's hard to find.
I've read the .pdf on the series, but it's not specific enough
I'd like to know what you mean by supercardiod/shotgun when describing the m1255-S's pickup pattern ?
From my understanding, achieving this pattern involves manipulation of an omni and a figure 8.
That's a very small capsule (It's not even as big as the m1280/90)

Do you have actual lobe charts for both these mics ?

Is the sound captured same/similar/colored/different compared to the Cardioid or even Hypercardioid ?

(tested at various distances and db variations...)


any other information you can provide would be appreciated

(like sound clips of the different mics in same environments)


thanks for your anticipated help,

Gene Dulyn
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Gene,


The supercardioid pattern is the technical term for “shotgun” mic.    Another term for this type of polar pattern is called “line cardioid.” 

Basically, the capsule tube is elongated which effects the side lobe of the pickup pattern making it super directional. 

The pattern will be the same on the M1250 or M1255 as it is on the M1280. 

There are NO electronics involved with the mics as far as achieving the pick up patterns.   This is done at the capsule level.   

The attached photo is the M1255B  with the shotgun capsule.    As you can see , it adds quite a bit of length to the mic. 

 

What is your applications for these mics – I may be able to give you some more info based on experience.



Best regards,

Cliff Castle

Audix Corporation
PO Box 4010
9400 SW Barber Street


Wilsonville, OR  97070
503-682-6933    ph
503-682-7114    fx
800-966-8261    sales



From: i.Gene [mailto:igene@frontiernet.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 10:41 PM
To: Cliff Castle
Subject: Re: Audix m1255-S vs. m1255-HC

 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,

Thanks for that explanation.  I was under the impression that the 1255-S was a small mic like the hyper, card., omni etc type.

Now that I see the picture I see that it actually looks like the larger shotgun pattern mics.

Well, primarily I need the 1255 series RFI immunity as I use them for video work and often get cellphone x-mit noises on  my recordings.

(I currently have an m1245-C stereo pair)

I'd also like to narrow the pickup area, so there is a more pronounced stereo effect when I mix it with the soundboard recording.

I hang my mics overhead from a balcony on a boom about 10' from the stage 15' up.

Also, when I go record shows from a greater distance (20' - 100') the higher output sounds like a great plus.

I like the way my micros sound, so I'm willing to get another set just reading specs.

 

Oh, and the Shotgun size is too large. I'm trying to be unseen overhead.

I think the hypercardiod are the ones I'm looking for.

m1255-HC

Do you think it is the best choice for my needs ?


-------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Gene,

 
It sounds like you are on the right track.   Both the 1250 and 55 have RF protection.   
The 1255 sounds like the way to go since you get a lot more sensitivity without extra noise.   
The HC will definitely give you a tighter sound with less room noise.   
The closer you can get them to the sound souce , the better the results.   

Please let me know how they work out !   

Best regards,
Cliff Castle

Audix Corporation
PO Box 40109400 SW Barber Street

Wilsonville, OR  97070

 503-682-6933    ph
503-682-7114    fx
800-966-8261    sales

http://www.audixusa.com

http://www.myspace.com/audixmicrophones

 


 

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the Doctor : Should we try using our Intelligence ?
Leela : Well, if you think it's a good idea.
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Offline DSatz

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> The supercardioid pattern is the technical term for “shotgun” mic.

That is simply incorrect. Anyone who would say that doesn't know what he's talking about, even if he is a nice, intelligent person who works for a company that sells pretty good microphones.

The shotgun principle CAN'T be shrunken down or miniaturized, since the entire effect of the interference tube depends on the wavelengths of the sounds that are being picked up. A 6" interference tube is too short to have any audible effect on low or midrange frequencies. It can only begin to narrow the microphone's pattern at ~2 - 3 - 4 kHz and above. That's too high to have any useful effect at typical recording distances for music.

That doesn't stop people from making and selling these microphones, though--AKG has had one in their catalog for a very long time (C 747--see attached photo). It's actually a pretty nice little microphone, but it's not a shotgun microphone despite its shape.

Abraham Lincoln is said to have asked, "How many legs does a dog have if you call its tail a leg?" The answer is four--because calling its tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. Same thing here.

--best regards
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 10:49:16 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline igene

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"AKG has had one in their catalog for a very long time (C 747--see attached photo). It's actually a pretty nice little microphone, but it's not a shotgun microphone despite its shape."

I always thought the 747 was a hypercardioid, but I get what you mean.

The HC 1255 looks to be what I need.
I have a church micros cable too.
Now I can have another pair of caps for it.

Leela : ...what are we going to do ?
the Doctor : Should we try using our Intelligence ?
Leela : Well, if you think it's a good idea.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gallifreyan Guard : But you do have access to the greatest source of knowledge in the Universe.
the Doctor : Well, I do talk to myself sometimes, Yes...

 

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