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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: Gutbucket on June 20, 2009, 01:55:01 PM

Title: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on June 20, 2009, 01:55:01 PM
A thread for chamber, orchestral, choral, operatic, etc. music of any ethnicity. All acoustic sources, usually good to great venues, quiet respectful audiences, and the challenge of capturing that huge dynamic range of a full orchestra- there's a lot that makes these recording opportunities some of the most rewarding.

To start here is an interesting rig up at a chamber music concert I attended last fall.  Spaced omnis flanking a Schoeps KFM360- omni caps mounted flush in the surface on opposite sides of the sphere each with a forward facing figure-8 cap next to each, forming two sideways oriented M/S pairs.  The 4 capsules feed a dedicated matrix box which varies the four resulting mic patterns for stereo or 4 channel surround.  6 channels total for the main array with the omni outriggers. Additional stereo spot on the piano and two mics at the edge of the stage facing the audience. Quite a setup.  No it's not mine-


Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Carrera2 on June 20, 2009, 02:21:28 PM
Great idea. Thanks for setting up the team thread.

Here's a link (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,104040.0.html) to a conversation about recording a woodwind quintet from a while back.

I'll try to post some pics, samples and discussion from my outing tonight. Gotta go pack!

Off topic: How do you create a hyperlink?

Edited to add: Thanks to the tutorial, I fixed the above link. It's been a while since I did any text-based coding of html.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on June 20, 2009, 02:46:28 PM
Say you want to make a link using this text. Copy the address to your clipboard, then highlight the word or phrase you'd like to serve as the link and click the hyperlink button above. That will look like this:
Code: [Select]
[url]this text[/url]   Edit the first part in brackets, the
Code: [Select]
[url] at the beginning of the statement to read
Code: [Select]
[url=http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,123523.0.html]  The phrase stays between the ][ parts of the brackets, so the final code appears like this:
Code: [Select]
[url=http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,123523.0.html]this text[/url].
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Carrera2 on June 20, 2009, 03:42:36 PM

On the above set-up notice the NOS (or similar) coincident pair on the piano also.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on June 20, 2009, 04:54:57 PM
Good eye, yes the piano was spotted with a stereo pair.  There were also two SDC's at the extreme edge of the stage facing the audience.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: guosh86 on June 21, 2009, 11:28:04 PM
thanks for setting up the thread!

nice pics, i don't think i'll ever get such a sophisticated rig - though i'm gonna try something more interesting in the near future!

just got back from a show last night, and was a kinda lazy setup on my part. just did 2 dpa 4090s in a-b and ran them into an mbox and into protools.
actually brought an 002 but the firewire was giving problems so we decided not to use it (its becoming a bit of a white elephant... all because we keep procrastinating about getting a new cable  :P)

geez the mbox pres are pretty darn noisy. haven't used it in quite a while but i really didn't like it yesterday. all in all it wasn't a great concert, the playing left something to be desired and it has to be the noisiest audience i've ever recorded as well. at times i was getting as much chatter from the audience as from the stage!

here are the pics - it was just a concert featuring various ensembles (woodwind, brass, horns, perc, saxes, etc.) from a high school band, so i thought it'd be good to go simple for this one since the positions keep changing

cheers,
guo
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: guosh86 on June 23, 2009, 01:27:39 PM
did a recording today of a chinese orchestra in my university auditorium

not very exciting really, just a main pair of mc930s in ortf (sometimes i'm not really sure my ortf config is right... it sounds funny now that i listen to the recordings) my rode nt5s for percussion spots, and a couple of sm57s as spots for various instruments mixed on the fly into a mackie mixer and into my T+ UA-5 and finally SPDIF to microtrack 2

somehow i'm not happy with my mic positioning, its not really working in this room so far. any comments just based on the pictures below? i usually don't have problems in larger spaces, but this one is really screwing me up big time due to limitations on where i can place my mics

wondering if omnis might do better.... hmmm.... never really got my ortf right i think, so i'm trying to see if i can get the placement right



Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on June 23, 2009, 03:35:28 PM
Are those photos showing things as set-up in the recording space, except for seating for the orchestra musicians?  ORTF pair just in front of the back wall behind what I assume is the conductor's platform and chair?
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: notlance on June 23, 2009, 10:03:26 PM
did a recording today of a chinese orchestra in my university auditorium

not very exciting really, just a main pair of mc930s in ortf (sometimes i'm not really sure my ortf config is right... it sounds funny now that i listen to the recordings) my rode nt5s for percussion spots, and a couple of sm57s as spots for various instruments mixed on the fly into a mackie mixer and into my T+ UA-5 and finally SPDIF to microtrack 2

somehow i'm not happy with my mic positioning, its not really working in this room so far. any comments just based on the pictures below? i usually don't have problems in larger spaces, but this one is really screwing me up big time due to limitations on where i can place my mics

wondering if omnis might do better.... hmmm.... never really got my ortf right i think, so i'm trying to see if i can get the placement right

Joining the team and throwing in my $0.02 worth on the above mic placement.  If your mics were that close to the back wall, I don't think you will get any configuration to sound right.  You'll get some nasty reflections from the wall being so close to the mics, and you'll perhaps get some cancelation at certain frequencies.  You need some room behind the mics.  Sometimes when I'm recording in a small room I'll set up the orchestra on the diagonal so I can get some room behind the mics and behind the orchestra.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: guosh86 on June 24, 2009, 08:38:57 AM
yep it was just the setup without the orchestra in place yet.  turns out my camera ran out of battery when the orchestra finally got in  >:(

i'll take more pics in a day or two with the same setup with a wind ensemble in place. problem being that there really isn't any space in the room to move. i'll just have to find some other way to mic it up i guess. any suggestions?

regarding the vertical riser... i'm not really sure where i can get one? i've been looking for one for quite a while actually, and right now i'm depending on the use of washers to raise my mic but it just isn't enough

could anyone post a pic of their ortf setup? i've been trying to get it as accurate as possible, even to the point of measuring out the 110 degree angle and the 17cm spacing. but i have a feeling i got the angle wrong still, and not really sure if the length is between the middle or the ends of the capsules

 regarding the angling of mics towards the ensemble... would you guys generally angle towards the middle of the ensemble? or do you have other positions? generally i tend to point towards the middle, about 3 feet above the head of the conductor, 3 feet behind. not much of a problem in the concert halls, but this room with the wall just behind my mics is really giving me problems

cheers :)
Title: classical recording discussion
Post by: Gutbucket on June 24, 2009, 01:03:14 PM
The pragmatist approach. Either way keeps the mic bodies from interfering with each other where they cross, making ORTF easier to setup with the mics in the same plane.  Without it one mic is forced to point slightly upwards the other downwards.

For this particular room, I'd suggest trying a setup with considerably less angle between the mics, compensating for that with more spacing between them. DIN for instance has a slightly smaller angle between mics and a greater spacing.  As a side bonus, for anything DIN or wider you won't need the mic riser or over/under technique.   But I'd try going even wider with less angle than DIN.  You could use your cardioid pair like spaced omnis and cut down significantly on the contribution of the sound bouncing off that back wall.  The more angle between the mics, the less the stereo pair acting together will limit pickup of sound bouncing off the back wall.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on June 24, 2009, 01:38:05 PM
Here's my approach to thinking about the problem. My apologies if you already have a thorough understanding of how this works, but hopefully it will help someone or at least spark a conversation.  In any case it helps me to get it clear by thinking it though enough to describe it.  This starts with the Stereo Zoom idea but goes much farther. A philosophy of mic setup?   :-\ ;)

I'll assume that the orchestra as viewed from the mic stand all fit well within, say, a 120º angle and that you are using a pair of cardioid mics for your stereo pair.  You can choose various combinations of the angle and spacing between mics which all have an angle of pickup of 120º.  If you just choose angles and spacings randomly then the angle of pickup changes, but if you are careful about which combinations you choose, the pickup angle remains constant and you only change other variables.. like how your stereo pair handles the reverberant pickup of the room in the remaining 240º.

For any particular angle of pickup (my assumed 120º angle into which the orchestra fits as viewed from the mic stand) the relationship between the angle between the mics and their spacing forms a continuum - one end of that continuum is X/Y with a very wide angle between mics and no distance at all between them, using the directionality of the mic pattern alone to produce stereo. The other end of the continuum is no angle at all between mics (both facing straight ahead) and a good amount of spacing, which treats the mics as if they were a pair of spaced omnis, using the only time of arrival differences between them for producing stereo.  As mentioned, you can choose any point between those two extremes, trading angle for distance and maintaining the 120º pickup angle.  This is what Michael Williams' Stereo Zoom (http://www.microphone-data.com/pdfs/Stereo%20zoom.pdf) technique is all about.  If you want a 120º pickup angle (he calls it SRA- or stereo recording angle and writes 120º as +/-60º) with cardioid mics, you can refer to his cardioid chart and read spacing and angle combinations off the +/-60º curve of the graph.  For instance you might choose to set your mics up in X/Y @ 140º, or 14cm @ 90º, or 32cm @ 45º, or 44cm @ 0º (mics pointing straight ahead).  All of those combinations have a 120º pickup angle.  ORTF, DIN, NOS and others are just commonly used points on various SRA curves.

Williams charts are set-up to let you choose between angles and spacings for a certain SRA using a particular pickup pattern.  They also tell you a little bit about how even the distribution of instrument sources across the playback stage will be within that pickup and playback angle.  But other than that they don't tell you anything about why you might choose one combination over another.  One perhaps obvious, or at least fairly often discussed choice is a preference for either the sharper imaging of mic setups that rely primarily on level differences generated by mic pattern or the less sharp imaging but deeper and spacious sound of setups that primarily use the spacing between mics to record time of arrival differences.  Rarely discussed and I'd argue more important, especially for less than ideal situations such as this one, is the effect on the reverberant pickup of everything outside of the SRA.  I feel the sound of the room and the correct balance of that contribution with the direct sound is the most critical aspect when choosing a setup.  For me, the real value of the Stereo Zoom concept is providing the ability to hold the pickup angle variables constant and change how the reflections and reverberation in the room are recorded.

As far as the Stereo Zoom is concerned, two cardioids spaced 44cm apart and pointing straight ahead with no angle between them and two omnis spaced 44cm act identically.  They produce the same SRA and distribution of sound sources between the speakers.  But we all know they'll sound very different. One reason for that is the cardioid pair is angled so that the mics reject all sound arriving from directly behind them as a pair, whereas the omni pair doesn't favor any particular direction.

What I'm suggesting is to 'read between the lines' of the Stereo Zoom info and using it to consider ways of setting up your mics to reduce the negative aspects of the recording environment.  You could use your cardioid pair like spaced omnis and cut down significantly on the contribution of the sound bouncing off that back wall.  The more angle between the mics, the less the stereo pair acting together will limit pickup of sound bouncing off the back wall.

I find the Stereo Zoom relationship between mic pickup pattern, distance and angle between the mics very interesting and relatively easy to get an feel for.  Most recordists develop an instinctive understanding of the concept even if they may not have a clear intellectual idea of what is going on or if they've never heard of the Stereo Zoom stuff. The part that fascinates me is the huge contribution of everything outside of the Stereo Zoom SRA.  The idea of choosing a setup to cut down on the sound bouncing off the back wall is part of that.  Other important factors that I'm trying to understand more completely are the nature of the the reverberant and reflective contribution from 'that other 240º'.  Questions like: how much of the reverberance from the rest of the room is recorded as mono vs stereo information?  Were does that reverberance and room reflections appear in the stereo soundstage illusion on playback?  How differently does the stereo pair capture reverberance and reflections from above and below as opposed to the side or back. If this sounds interesting you might take a look at a thread I posted last fall which gets into that: Why Blumlein sounds more spacious than other coincident or near-so arrays (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,110861.0.html) The link there to Stan Linkwitz's page on Mapping from recording to playback (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Recording/record-play-map.htm) is pretty easy to understand and explains why 48% of the total reverberation of the room is captured as mono reverberation using an ORTF pair. 

Everything I've mentioned so far considers only sound on the horizontal plane. Lnkwitz only looks at the horizontal plane as I recall, yet reverberant sound comes from all directions.  When considering the entire 3-D pickup of a stereo pair in a real room, that 48% mono reverberation figure for ORTF would be much higher still.  Michael Williams' 1991 AES paper91st AES Convention in New York - Preprint 3155« Early Reflections and Reverberant Field Distribution in Dual Microphone Stereophonic Sound Recording Systems » (http://www.soundsscot.com/MMAD_04/Collected%20Papers/Stereo/3155%20New%20York%201991%20(28%20pages).pdf) does a good job of explaining what happens above and below the horizontal plane.  This one was enlightening for me with 3-D analysis of both individual mics and of stereo pairs.  In most cases, the farther the source of sound is above or below the horizontal plane of the mics, the more it is recorded as mono instead of stereo information, and that happens surprisingly rapidly.

This spring I ran across another excellent paper by Geoff Martin that he's made available on his website which goes further in depth: General Response Characteristics of Microphone Configurations (http://www.tonmeister.ca/research/pubs/martin03a.pdf).  If the Linkwitz page and the Williams papers make sense, then take a look at this one. It is quite technical and through. Even if reading the whole paper is not your thing, you may get something out of checking out the colored globe images that illustrate the 3-D pickup of stereo pairs and analyzes what I'm getting at. 
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: guysonic on June 24, 2009, 06:38:43 PM
As shown by posts many mic array technics and positional tacts exist for doing classical music recordings.  My tact is for using HRTF mic array with DSM-6S/H or /M model mics either headworn or baffle mounted.

Advantage to HRTF array with these mics is widest 5-40,000Hz mic bandwidth, consistent natural sound and precise imaging, ease of mic placement as heard sound is always the recorded sound, and low cost of mic system that competes easily with most costly mics and array systems available.

Of course the proof is in the recordings produced by the various mics/arrays so I have posted many raw classical recordings done with HRTF arrayed DSM model mics for comparison purposes, and just for pure listening pleasure for classical music fans.

Many performance/session recordings exist on page: www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm (http://www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm)

The classical music of most interest to this team are listed by title in top-to-bottom page order and I encourage fans of this type of music to give some or all titles a listen. 

Hayden Cello #5 Jim Dukey, Rec.Eng/Musician Cello, Violin, & Symphony Orchestra Recording: DSM-6S/M + DSM-GUY

Classical/Jazz/Acoustic Sampler - Recorded by Jim Dukey with DSM-GUY Cello, Violin, Saxophone, Duets, Trio + Big Band

HIGHLY RATED MULTI-TRACK MIX DESTROYS TCHAIKOVSKY INTERPRETATION !!!

The Air Force Band of the Golden West

Eliane Lust plays 'Chopin Nocturne'

Rochester Oratoric Society: A CARIBBEAN CONCERT

Lyle Lovett Acoustic Orch.Concert, Snitzer Hall, Portland OR '94...DOWNLOAD Set One 70:51Min 113Meg DOWNLOAD Set Two 82:54Min 105Meg

Ives Piano Sonata Paul Hekman's 1999 Pipe Organs of Europe Tour

Piano - Violin Live Performance Recorded with LiteGUY + DSM-6S/H mic + PA-24NJ preamp + Microtrack deck @ 24bit/88.2k

CARMEN: 5:33Min/7.4Meg Excerpts 2003 OPERA Recorded in large auditorium distant audience seat~17-20th row; DSM-6S/EH mic+PA-24NJ+PCM-M1 DAT

St. James Cathedral Sacred Music Festival Clips Multiple Organ, Choral, Orchestra


Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on June 24, 2009, 07:03:56 PM
Headworn miniature omnis like Guysonic sells do a good job of accurately recording the actual sound of the room from the listening position. 

In goush86's application the actual sound of the room in the mic position is probably not ideal with that wall so close.  If he had some miniature/lavaliere/binaural omnis I'd suggest simply taping them up against the wall to form a boundary-mounted spaced omni pair. That would completely eliminate any interference off the back wall.  In fact it would use the wall to his advantage through the boundary effect, both increasing the mics sensitivity and the direct/reverberant ratio from that position in the room.  Unfortunately, he didn't mention having any miniature omnis available.

I've had very nice results with that technique the few times I've used it, mounted on walls much farther back in the room.  MFrench has also done this for classical music recording, maybe he can post a photo.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: guosh86 on June 25, 2009, 12:11:23 AM
great suggestions Lee!

i never really considered these options actually, since the usual ORTF has gotten me by pretty decently whenever i had to use cardoids  ;D i tried to access william's stereo zoom theory on the mics & setup page but that link was down so thanks for posting a working link here!

i'll go read up on it (just downloaded the file) and see what i can do for tonight's rehearsal. i might even try the boundaries.... think my friend has some naiants somewhere, so i'll try to borrow them and tape them down. but i probably can't get them tonight so i'll try adjusting the mic position and angles.

sometimes i just feel like being lazy and sticking some binaural's on the conductor's head and give him what he hears  :P but i don't think i'd really like to hear that either! even the conductor complains that the sound in the auditorium sounds funny, so much so that i'm always too loud (i'm a bass trombonist. i don't know how the acoustics work but it makes the bass trombone really loud in there...)

i'll take some pics tonight of the setup... haven't decided what to do yet, will go read up more and try it out later. i'll update what setup i use later! probably just a stereo pair, and i'll use a different setup per half and hopefully post some samples


regarding the chinese orchestra, i've got a sample track here:  http://download.yousendit.com/UmNJbGtDeFUyWGNLSkE9PQ (http://download.yousendit.com/UmNJbGtDeFUyWGNLSkE9PQ)
don't mind the overwhelming spots on that one though, didn't get the levels right. turned them down considerably after that

cheers,
guo
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Carrera2 on June 25, 2009, 01:17:40 AM

Michael Williams' 1991 AES paper91st AES Convention in New York - Preprint 3155« Early Reflections and Reverberant Field Distribution in Dual Microphone Stereophonic Sound Recording Systems » (http://www.soundsscot.com/MMAD_04/Collected%20Papers/Stereo/3155%20New%20York%201991%20(28%20pages).pdf) does a good job....


I couldn't get this link to open. I do see that the paper is offered on the AES website.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on June 25, 2009, 09:25:28 AM
Looks like his website is down.  I tried to check something over there last week and noticed the same.  Great papers and an on-line Stereo Zoom and surround array configuration tool there, I hope it's only temporary.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: guosh86 on June 26, 2009, 03:04:52 AM
i just realised my university has a whole lot of tonmeister stuff in the library - would you guys be interested? i suppose i could put some stuff up here

regarding last night's recording, i went for ~80 degree angle, about 20cm apart. sorry, no pics though, i forgot my camera  :banging head:

doh!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on June 26, 2009, 09:18:45 AM
Sure. So how'd it sound?
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: guosh86 on June 28, 2009, 12:25:18 AM
it was ok i guess, better than the ortf but still not optimal

i'll probably try to cut the room out totally the next time i record there, maybe just go a-b with cardoids :)

i was in the library the other day and i picked up some books. some interesting graphs there, combining the williams stereo zoom for hypers, cards, sub cards and omnis in a single graph. not sure if its already up but i could post it at some point


also, what kind of recordings do you guys usually do? full orchestra? chamber? wind ensembles? and what kind of sound do you guys look for when you record?

cheers!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: notlance on June 28, 2009, 01:28:39 PM
I'll record just about anybody that will let me, as long as there is no PA.  Lately I have been recoding a lot of chamber music due to summer chamber music camps occurring now.  Lots of string groups ranging from duos up to 100 member string orchestras.

What do I listen for in my recordings?  Well, I try to get a good octave to octave balance.  What I most often hear is too much treble in the 4kHz to 12kHz range.  This is often the fault of SDC mics that have a "bump" in that range.  Fortunately, it's easy to eq that bump out.  Of course mic placement is important.  I try to stay away from the violins for reasons explained below.

I'm also listening for that ideal balance between room and direct sound.  What's the ideal balance?  Hell, I don't know, but I know it when I hear it.  Since I so often record live concerts and do not have a chance to move the mics after the concert begins, I do a lot of MS recording which allows me to adjust the direct and reflected sound ratio a bit after the fact.

Perhaps the hardest thing to do is get the balance between instruments to sound right since I have little control over the musicians placement in a concert setting.  In particular, getting the viola to be loud enough is very difficult because in almost every case the viola is on the right with its top surface facing away from the mics, whereas the violin is on the left with its top facing into the mics.  In addition, the higher pitch of the violin tends to cut right through the recording, and add to that the afore mentioned common SDC treble "bump" and it can sound like all violin all the time.

So I guess what I am saying is I listen for balance.  I don't want any sound to "stick out" in my recording, unless that's the way the musicians played it.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: JackHenry on June 28, 2009, 06:24:35 PM
In particular, getting the viola to be loud enough is very difficult because in almost every case the viola is on the right with its top surface facing away from the mics, whereas the violin is on the left with its top facing into the mics.

Is there a way to solve this issue with just a stereo pair of mics? Does having the mics closer and higher, so it's looking more 'down' on the orchestra help? Taking this concept to the extreme, what happens if you have an ORTF set high above the middle of the orchestra looking straight down?
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Brian Skalinder on June 29, 2009, 01:59:46 AM
FYI:  if Bri needs to clear out old data because the DB gets too big and causes maintenance / backup problems, he's likely to start in the Miscellaneous section:  Open Forum, PZ, etc....and possibly Team Boards.  I think he's only had to clear out data once or twice, ever, and at least one of those instances focused on pictures.  Anyway, all this to say:  there's a chance Team Board threads may disapper some day.  If you want to mitigate the risk of losing content in this thread, you might consider posting in the Technical Help forums.

Good stuff here!
Title: classical recording discussion
Post by: Gutbucket on June 29, 2009, 09:59:36 AM
Thanks Brian, that's an appropriate concern. Do you care to move/re-title the thread?   I started this as a team thread after the previous defacto classical recording thread which developed in rig pictures went away.  It would be a shame to loose it again.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: boojum on June 29, 2009, 05:56:49 PM
Great thread!  And overdue.  Thanks, Lee.

I use MS for chamber groups and AB ~38 - 39cm for chorale or Jecklin disc. I like the Jecklin for its better imaging.   

The constant problem with recording live is "Do you want good sound or do you want good pictures?"  If the group wants good sound it will have to suffer the consequences of mic arrays, and sometimes weird ones like the Schoeps ball in the first post or my ugly home made Jecklin.  The MS is a good compromise for small groups like chamber as it is relatively unobtrusive, gives good imaging and is a quick and easy setup.  I know some decry it as bad mono but that has not been my experience.  I get very good stereo imaging with MS.

Glad to see this thread.

L8R
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: boojum on June 29, 2009, 07:06:18 PM
Lee, regarding Williams and SRA.  I think it is best to first get the best mic placement and then work Williams from there.  I am not sure you specified getting the optimum spot as primary.  Then Williams will get you in the ballpark.  Tweaking can be done after that, but may not be necessary.  In a rush Williams' tables will be enough.  The other thing about Williams is that the angle between the cards is counter-intuitive.  One would think closer would call for wider angles and vice versa but I do not think this is the case.  Tricky bit of physics that.  ;o)

I am off tonight for my usual acoustic bluegrass jam: MS overhead aimed downward into the center of the circle from about three feet above.  Because of the awful venue this is all I have been able to get to work.  I will try to run some DPA4061's parallel with the MS soon.

Again, Lee, thanks for getting the thread started.


Cheers to all.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: notlance on June 30, 2009, 09:14:56 AM
In particular, getting the viola to be loud enough is very difficult because in almost every case the viola is on the right with its top surface facing away from the mics, whereas the violin is on the left with its top facing into the mics.

Is there a way to solve this issue with just a stereo pair of mics? Does having the mics closer and higher, so it's looking more 'down' on the orchestra help? Taking this concept to the extreme, what happens if you have an ORTF set high above the middle of the orchestra looking straight down?

Moving the mics higher helps, but in concert situations it's often hard to get them high enough without becoming too visually obtrusive.  Moving them closer makes the balance shift more towards the violins, unless, as you proposed, you move them into the middle of the orchestra.  I've never had the balls to ask if I can put my mic stand in the middle of the woodwinds, but go for it and report back, please.  I've had some luck with moving the mics left of center to get the violins off axis.

In general, the smaller the group the easier it is to find a good position since small changes can make a big difference.  It all works out fine unless the musicians move during the concert.  On Saturday, I recorded a concert consisting of 9 separate chamber groups ranging from duets to octets.  The stage crew seemed to set up each group in a slightly different position relative to my mic stand; I think they were messin' with me.  Oh well, the music sounded great, and it was a learning experience for me.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: live2496 on June 30, 2009, 01:43:52 PM
RE: balance
I think I would shoot for making it sound as realistic as possible for a person in the audience. Not every listening position is the same, but you don't want to be too close otherwise some instruments will dominate the overall sound. If too far away you will get too much room sound. Make it sound good to you.

I attended Beethoven's 9th in Dallas last fall. That requires a big orchestra and choir. They had outer omni mics on each flank as well as a stereo pair in the middle. Also mics were flown close to the different sections of the choir. I would use flanking mics if you have a big group.

I have also seen them use a spot mic on a guest cello player in one case. They needed to get close to get him at the right level in the mix, but they added some reverb on the fly to give it some room sound to balance it out with the rest of the orchestra.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Brian Skalinder on June 30, 2009, 02:28:50 PM
No, not an error.  In response to my post (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,123523.msg1648732.html#msg1648732) about Team Board threads, the OP asked me to move it.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: jnorman34 on June 30, 2009, 07:59:52 PM
joining thread - recording chamber music is the most rewarding thing i can think of.  generally serious musicians trying very hard to do something correctly.  and you can actually (depending on the performance, of course) acheive professional sounding results with nothing but a decent ORTF pair and a nice space. 

please keep posting pictures of your setups - always fun to see.  this might also be a good thread to start posting short clips of various mics for comparison (like multiple pairs of ORTF setups at a single performance), and comparisons of various stereo arrangments (ORTF vs NOS vs AB vs jecklin, etc).   i've got a couple of clips i can post of ORTF vs spaced omnis on a flute piano duo.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on July 01, 2009, 10:37:28 AM
Posted about a very interesting 4 mic headworn techique over in Team DPA (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,123926.msg1650032.html#msg1650032) which one of our members has developed for some Opera recording.  Figured you all may be interested. I plan to explore this further.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: live2496 on July 01, 2009, 10:58:56 AM
Thanks. I'm definitely intererested in experimenting with that Strauss Packet technique that was mentioned.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: WiFiJeff on July 01, 2009, 02:02:49 PM
Checking in.  Great thread.  I'll be doing a Strauss Packet tape this weekend, seats a bit too far back to go straight omni and still hope to pick up soloists.

Learning from serendipitous mistakes: last week I was taping a jazz quartet, not my usual fare.  I went with a pair of Cascade Fathead II (Lundahl transformers) ribbon mics, in Blumlein configuration.  The right channel picked out the trumpet and drums accurately, the electric bass center was about right, but my stand was angled down too steeply and the left channel was centered under the piano.  I usually do Blumlein with an AKG 426, these ribbons are far more colored off-axis (by the time I figured this out, too late to change).  The result was that the Steinway grand ended up sounding like my idea of a jazz piano (softer, weaker highs).  No feedback yet from the artists, but I really like this tape!

Jeff
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: boojum on July 01, 2009, 10:01:16 PM
Checking in.  Great thread.  I'll be doing a Strauss Packet tape this weekend, seats a bit too far back to go straight omni and still hope to pick up soloists.

Learning from serendipitous mistakes: last week I was taping a jazz quartet, not my usual fare.  I went with a pair of Cascade Fathead II (Lundahl transformers) ribbon mics, in Blumlein configuration.  The right channel picked out the trumpet and drums accurately, the electric bass center was about right, but my stand was angled down too steeply and the left channel was centered under the piano.  I usually do Blumlein with an AKG 426, these ribbons are far more colored off-axis (by the time I figured this out, too late to change).  The result was that the Steinway grand ended up sounding like my idea of a jazz piano (softer, weaker highs).  No feedback yet from the artists, but I really like this tape!

Jeff

Sample??
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: WiFiJeff on July 03, 2009, 10:04:35 AM
pm sent.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: guosh86 on July 05, 2009, 10:41:40 AM
did a recording of my university orchestra (amateurs though, just doing it as a hobby) before they head to korea for a tour in a couple of days

nothing new in terms of pics, just did ortf with beyer mc930s a couple of feet from the group. can't remember how high it was, but it was pretty decent. had to move the stand slightly forward in order to balance the strings and winds, and also managed to get curtains to absorb most of the sound in the small room.

added some spots for the group - a rode nt5 to add more detail to the winds (wanted to do XY but i only brought 4 cables and i had to use one for my double bass spot)

mixed them on the fly with a behringer mixer to my UA5 and finally to the microtrack 2

in the end it was ok, but needed quite a bit of work in post-production just to get it to sound right - the behringer mixer was unbearably noisy, and the room still didn't sound great at all. did quite a bit of eq before compressing, adding reverb and limiting. i'll post a clip of them soon, either the mozart or the beethoven.

thats basically the setup for my recordings on the road, just a bag with all my equipment in it and mic stands in another bag. i'll have to get a 4 track recorder at some point i guess, because mixing on the fly is pretty nervewrecking imo. what do you guys usually bring to your recording sessions?

i'm still waiting for a pair of omnis so i can run split omnis or a jecklin disc. maybe i'll mount it all on the same stand too.... i'll post some pics and clips when i get them! for now, here are the pics from the session
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: boojum on July 06, 2009, 01:44:56 AM
What do I bring to sessions?  Depends.  When I do the local chorale I bring a pair of omnis for AB or Jecklin and will bring a card or two for spots.  I also did some spot recording with an MS rig which turned out well.  The problem I have with AB plus spots is the time difference.  If I do not delay the spots to align with the AB's sometimes the spots stand out too much.  That is, they sound recorded closer than the omnis, because they were.  Backing the timing off a few milliseconds to align more with the omnis overcomes this.  By dinking around with the spot timing I can seemingly move the soloists back and forward in the stage, which can be useful.

The chamber group I did was MS on the chamber quartet and AB omnis on the piano.  Multi, more than two, tracking I do with either two two track recorders linked or an eight track.  Either way is good.  I did the chamber group with the two two tracks, the chorale with an eight track and also with two two tracks.

Most critical for me is finding the "sweet spot."

Cheers
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Mike R. on July 07, 2009, 01:51:37 AM
I've had a couple of recording opportunities in the last few weeks.  In both cases I used a pair of Beyerdynamic M88TG mics aimed outward ala ORTF.  No measurement of spacing or angles, but keeping in mind the hyper-cardioid-ness of the mics and what I've read in the Stereo Zoom article.  Mics feed a Mix-Pre, the tape-out of that goes to the line-in of a PMD-660.

Session 1 was a flute/cello duo in a medium sized living room with high vaulted wood-paneled ceilings.  An area rug on the wood floor under the musicians extended nearly to the mic stand.  The mics were about 4 feet above the floor.  I had a second 660 that I ran a pair of AT 3032 (omni) spaced about 4 feet apart,  All mics were within 8 feet of the musicians.  The omnis were a backup pair, I was not mixing, and the two 660s were not synchronized.  I was somewhat surprised how similar the primary and the backup recordings sound.  The microphones were very different.  The omni pair went to an Oade Advanced Mod 660.  The primary pair (hypers) went to a Basic mod 660, but I think there is not much of that mod in the line-in path.  The goal here was a demo recording for the musicians.

Session 2 was four performers on a Japanese flute, two solo, one with shamisen, one with koto, and then all four flutes with bass koto.  The concert performance was in a dome shaped auditorium that seats about 400, maybe 70 in the audience.  The mics (M88s) were closer to the floor than session 1, more like 12 inches off the floor, aimed up slightly.  The audience was very quiet.  I only hear audience noise in one or two places.  I've recorded here before with less directional mics and audience noise and chair creaks were more audible.  This was primarily a concert performance so the mics were kept low, out of the main sight lines.

I think the results were pretty good with relatively modest equipment by professional recording standards.  Session 1 required no balance tweaking.  In Session 2, I gave about 3dB more to the left channel (koto side) in the Koto/flute duo.  The final with all four flutes and bass koto has a bit more emphasis on the koto than is optimal, the koto was front and center.  This arrangement was for the concert audience, not the recording.

I can probably get some short clips together...

Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: JackHenry on July 07, 2009, 04:01:16 AM
I'd be interested in the recording of the AT3032 pair if you can post a clip please..

Oooh! And a photo of the position relative to the musicians if possible
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: boojum on July 07, 2009, 01:10:37 PM

I can probably get some short clips together...



I am hoping.    8)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: jnorman34 on July 08, 2009, 11:20:09 AM
jack - i have some clips available of flute/piano duo from the new AT4022 omnis (which replaced the AT3032) - they are very nice mics.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: SClassical on July 08, 2009, 12:14:13 PM
in the end it was ok, but needed quite a bit of work in post-production just to get it to sound right - the behringer mixer was unbearably noisy, and the room still didn't sound great at all. did quite a bit of eq before compressing, adding reverb and limiting. i'll post a clip of them soon, either the mozart or the beethoven.

I can see why it didn't sound that great!! It's not a huge room even though with good ceiling height. The long black curtains on all the walls will definitely make the recording sound bad. Usually for classical recording a room with no absorbent material on the walls or ceilings will work best. Also your main mics near the conductor stand is right next to the curtain. Usually, if you want good results for recording classical you need to have free air around the pickup (mic) location. If you attend a Symphony Orch concert you will see the main omni AB pair hanging mid air from the high ceiling behind the conductor. Next time if you can pull the curtains together you should hear some improvements even with that bad crowded room. Good luck!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: jnorman34 on July 08, 2009, 05:17:12 PM
a couple of clips from flute/piano duo - doppler's fantasie hungarian - hope the links work, the files were too large to upload here:

first one is a pair of AT4051s in ORTF about 7-8 feet out
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/97701d1223943884-ortf-vs-spaced-pair-ortf1.mp3

second one is a spaced pair of AT4022 omnis about 4-5 feet out.  (the 4022s replaced the AT3032 omnis)
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/97702d1223943884-ortf-vs-spaced-pair-omnis1.mp3
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: JackHenry on July 08, 2009, 05:59:13 PM
The omnis sound nice. How far apart were they??
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: jnorman34 on July 08, 2009, 06:16:11 PM
jack - omnis were spread about 40cm. 
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on July 09, 2009, 09:01:57 AM
Interesting comparison, John. Thanks.

Both sound very good. I hear sharper imaging and a fully developed, well balanced sound with the mic'ing distance of the 4051s -vs- increased recording depth, space, smoothness of response and a sort of direct upfront realness with the proximity of the 4022s.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: jnorman34 on July 09, 2009, 11:03:19 AM
mr bucket - thanks for the comments.  i think i wound up using a blend of the two pairs in the final mix.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Mike R. on July 09, 2009, 04:25:17 PM
To follow up from a few days ago, with clips, about 20 sec each:

The first two are in a living room, high ceilings, panel walls and ceiling, rug on floor.

FluteCelloM88 (http://tinyurl.com/lkocb9)

FluteCello3032 (http://tinyurl.com/ncfkcf)

The following is in an auditorium, public concert performance.

BambooShamisenM88 (http://tinyurl.com/nzpgtz)

I'll keep these files up for a little while, but not forever.  The links will go dead eventually.

[edited to add descrptive text to URLs]
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: WiFiJeff on July 10, 2009, 11:37:10 AM
I ran the Strauss Packet (DPA 4099 + DPA 4063 pairs) as planned, but a computer crash kept me from doing the editing until yesterday.  I was sitting ten rows back from the stage, normally not great for the best sound; on top of that, the conductor had the orchestra playing way too loud and often covered the piano soloist (this was a problem all through the hall, as friends were sitting upstairs and also complained of this).  I experimented with a straight mix, but ended up going with the omnis low-passed (down about -20 dB above 300 Hz) as I do for opera, which had the advantage of a quieter tape since the hypercards screened out much of the rather filthy audience coughing and noises in the quieter passages, making cleanup in iZoptope RX a bit easier.

I am reasonably pleased with the recording.  The piano is still somewhat distant (I like to be under the instrument), but the sound is much better than I have ever gotten this far back.  NO, repeat NO, mini cardioid has ever sounded this good to me, and few larger ones either.

Jeff
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on July 10, 2009, 10:39:29 PM
Thanks for the update Jeff, I'm really intrigued with what you're doing. I still need to call DPA in Denver and ask about the new rumored mini cards before committing to these.  Have you heard anything else about those?

Similarly, I recorded last night from what I figured would be less than optimal seats, 14th row back way off to the side, under the balcony. Solo female vocal with piano accompaniment, PA reinforced in a gorgeously refurbished 1500 seat theater.  Used the 4 x 4060 (L,R,C,B) technique and am amazed how well it worked from that position.  I moved forward out from under the balcony for the final encore and was surprised to find the sound quality diminished somewhat, less clarity and a bit much reverb from the open volume to the ceiling.  They installed a new FOH system during the latest refurbishment and I think they may have installed a LARES  (http://www.lares-lexicon.com/)or equivalent DSP acoustic enhancement system as there are now arrayed speakers hidden in the side walls throughout the hall and under the front edge of the balcony. Listening to the just the L/R stereo pair actually sounds a bit over dry and up-front in comparison to playback with all four channels, the opposite of what I normally would expect from that position in the room.  Haven't tried mixing the four channels down to stereo with this recording.

A few photos-

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2562/3708896238_f735261799.jpg?v=0)

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2575/3708896252_93ba3ea19d.jpg)

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2674/3708896262_9fc7d12d31.jpg?v=0)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3477/3708090265_20ba6aa114.jpg?v=1247278573)

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2473/3708902840_a1a1ae9279.jpg?v=1247278533)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: boojum on July 11, 2009, 03:10:57 AM
You guys are makin' me feel bad doin' my guerrilla taping in saloons.

I ran the 4061's for the first time.  Mmmm-hmmm.  They sound nice.  I am just now combining the tracks and will compare the 4061 in AB to the Schoeps in ORTF.  First impression of the 4061's:  Wow!  I am just now working on the Schoeps tracks and have not heard them.

L8R
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: guysonic on July 12, 2009, 05:31:04 AM
A customer recently sent both photo and recording sample of a christmas song using the DSM LiteGUY baffled array in the picture below. 

(http://www.sonicstudios.com/SHEPARDS PIPE CHORAL 12-08.jpg)

The ~4.2 MEG recording sample is at www.sonicstudios.com/SHEPARDS PIPE CAROL (JOHN RUTTER).mp3 (http://www.sonicstudios.com/SHEPARDS PIPE CAROL (JOHN RUTTER).mp3)

The gear used was Sonic Studios system of DSM-6S/H model mic + LiteGUY HRTF baffle + balanced output PA-24 series preamp driving 24 foot balanced extension into MT1 using deck's TRS input.

The church's interior is solid stone construction and extremely live.  As some of you know, large choral inside extremely live rooms is quite problematic to record satisfactorly using most mic arrays.

I think you'll find this recording quite good considering the circumstances.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: boojum on July 12, 2009, 01:07:49 PM
^^^ GS - Interesting.  Is there a way that I can DL rather than be forced to listen to this in Quicktime?
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on July 12, 2009, 07:45:07 PM
^^^ GS - Interesting.  Is there a way that I can DL rather than be forced to listen to this in Quicktime?
 
Right click and save as, or just drag the link to your player of choice's playlist.



Found this great full BBC orchestra redition of Cage's 4:33 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUJagb7hL0E), especially moving for recordists that actually listen to all the sounds of silence that most people ignore.. except when forced to acknowledge it by pieces such as this.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: boojum on July 12, 2009, 10:34:00 PM
^^^ GS - Interesting.  Is there a way that I can DL rather than be forced to listen to this in Quicktime?
 
Right click and save as, or just drag the link to your player of choice's playlist.
 

That works.   ;o)   Nice sense of space in the recording.  And Rochester; say no more!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: guosh86 on July 13, 2009, 11:20:42 AM
sorry off topic, but just thought i'd post some pictures up

just got back from a recording session. flew a dpa 4006 pair about 6 feet from the orchestra, ~4 feet above the conductor's head. added another 2 dpa supercardoids at circle 3 raised on stands pointing upwards towards the roof to capture some reverb. was just playing around with the pair at the back in all truth, just hoping it'd add something special to the recording

turned out alright, but we messed around using surround mixing and it was actually pretty interesting at the end. sounded good on the headphones, real surround, but we seemed to lose a little clarity in the process. i guess now we know why decca had the central mic so far forward from the other 2 mics! we didn't have a centre mic, so we tried to boost the phantom centre using the waves m360, but it just sounded too distant

was fun playing around though!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: boojum on July 13, 2009, 11:30:55 AM
^^^ Good hall; good gear.  A recipe for success.  Thanks for the info on Decca and quasi surround.  Much of the current technique was arrived at after many attempts at honing the methods.  There is a good deal of art in this discipline as well as science.

Cheers
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: guosh86 on July 18, 2009, 11:47:16 PM
did another recording in the hall today, with the Singapore Chinese Orchestra featuring Manuel Barrueco on solo guitar.

as it was, we wanted to get a fuller sound and try the decca tree. we were using the dpa surround kit to attempt this one, and came up with a rather odd decca tree - one with equal spacings, and placed about 18 feet above the stage.

results were actually surprisingly good, but we're planning to try it at a lower height, say about 10-12 feet above the stage, and with different spacings and see how it turns out the next time.

usually we've done surround using a stand, so it was the first time we've flown the kit. rather sad/amusing story though - we bought fishing line to fly the kit for the first time, and it was too thin. it led to the line cutting my hand as i was pulling it up, forcing me to let go and send it swinging across the stage!

luckily it didn't hit anything though... don't think i'd like to pay for those mics at all. but yep lesson learnt - wear gloves or get a thicker fishing line!

sorry i don't have that many pictures this time, didn't really have time to take them other than during the teardown. busy day since we were doing 32 channels and the decca tree actually took up most of the time, and we had to rush the rest of the spots and flanks after that.

interesting day all in all. managed to try out the beyer 910s and 950s and they worked nicely. will see if i can get some samples up. also, we managed to rent a dpa 4011 so we're going to try it out on thursday for a closed door recording and see how that works. looks to be an interesting period :)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on July 20, 2009, 12:34:12 AM
Good stuff. Nice little room you've got there. Thanks for the photos.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: boojum on July 21, 2009, 01:58:47 PM
Good stuff. Nice little room you've got there. Thanks for the photos.

GB, demonstrating his mastery of understatement.     8)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: jnorman34 on July 21, 2009, 06:15:10 PM
yep - makes me want to install a few balconies when i remodel my studio...
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: DSatz on August 22, 2009, 11:48:31 AM
I haven't listened to your recording--sorry--but when there's too much focus on the front/center performers (a fairly common problem), the usual suggestion is to try placing the mikes a little farther away and perhaps somewhat higher up.

But you always have to weigh that problem against the problem of picking up too much reverberation (hall sound). Sometimes wide cardioids are a better choice than omnis for that reason. They're still warm and soft like omnis and most of the nice full rolling bass is still there, but they can maintain focus from a slightly greater distance.

Anyway, congratulations on making the brave leap.

--best regards

P.S.: You may want to read http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,100121.0.html (or not).
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Mike R. on August 23, 2009, 10:09:37 PM

I did listen to the clip, and agree that you're too close.  Think of it this way.  If the front row is 4 feet away, and the back row is 16 feet away from the mics (just a wild guess), you're going to be getting a lot more energy from that fron row than the back.  24 dB down if I'm not too brain-dead right now.

The solution is get your mic position more equidistant from both front and back musicians.  Yes, farther in the audience, higher, or both.  There are lots of tradeoffs involved when you've got the audience, and even more when the recording is not the primary focus of the performance.

Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: DSatz on August 26, 2009, 07:58:38 AM
Mike R., the front/back disparity is only partly a matter of amplitude. The pickup from the musicians in front will also have a much higher proportion of sound arriving at the microphones directly, while the pickup from the musicians in back (and off to the sides beyond the microphones) will have a much higher proportion of reflected sound. So the pickup from the front is clearer and more direct.

I suspect that the formula you used was based on a free sound field--a space with no reflected energy. In a concert hall the difference wouldn't be so drastic. It's harder to predict "real-world" attenuation in a reverberant environment; it's easier to measure it, if you can get into the hall.

As you point out, the audience hears all the musicians from a more or less equal distance. For recordings to sound right over loudspeakers, the microphones must nearly always be placed closer to the sound source than the preferred audience position. In part this is because the playback environment adds sound reflections of its own (so to deliver the right balance of direct and reflected sound, the original has to be a bit clearer than what the audience would normally hear), and in part it's because by now, we're all used to hearing an enhanced pickup of detail--the basis on which "high fidelity" was sold to the public ("presence" was the buzzword back then). But this closer placement amplifies the disparity between distance-to-front and distance-to-back.

--Another technique that can help maintain "focus" with pressure (omni) microphones at greater distances is the use of accessory spheres around the capsules. The "Decca tree" approach is based on this, but the technique actually predates commercial stereophonic recording. The capsules need to be appropriate for the distance; you wouldn't use a capsule with flat 0-degree response for this.

--best regards
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: dean on August 26, 2009, 07:42:23 PM
.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: boojum on August 26, 2009, 07:57:06 PM
So, you're saying that because I recorded from the belly of the beast that my pull is crap?  I knew going in that it wasn't the right/best/optimum spot.  I shouldn't have asked, "What did I do wrong?" but rather, "What do you think of this crap?"  ;D

I do appreciate the enlargement on the whole orchestra recording deal, though.  If I ever get a little more advanced look at the room and the program, I'll have a much better feel for what I can get away with.  Thanks.

Reading Eargle and Bartlett have helped me a great deal in getting the basics of mic placement.  Then I can start from a reasonable place and proceed to the sweet spot.  Mics are like real estate: it is location, location, location.  Once I had begun to get the broad outlines of placement down I found that my recordings were getting better.  It takes practice.

Cheers
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: DSatz on August 27, 2009, 07:45:30 AM
U~Ca^, be of good cheer. As you practice and learn, you begin to expect more from yourself. This can lead to dissatisfaction with what you've done in the past--but when you can hear in your mind's ears what a better recording might sound like, you will already be making better recordings on the basis of that "sound picture." I promise this.

When I was first learning to record concerts, I called some experienced engineers and asked them to let me tag along to see how they did it. To my surprise, no one told me "no." From what I saw, it seemed that there were two crucial phases: the initial, planned setup, then the quick adjustments that they would make while the musicians warmed up. I got the feeling that the second part was almost as important as the first, and that it was where a lot of their experience and critical listening abilities showed themselves.

I eventually got to where I could "sight-read" a hall better than I could in the beginning, and to where I could learn a lot from listening through headphones to guide the quick adjustments. But there's still no substitute for going to the dress rehearsal, trying out several plausible setups, and listening to the results through a familiar set of loudspeakers until you know which setup you prefer and why.

It also helps if you don't change too many variables at the same time. Try your favorite mikes in several different arrangements and compare the results, or try several different mikes in the same arrangement and compare the results--but comparing microphone type A with microphone type B when A and B are set up very differently can be confusing. The range of results that can be produced with different placement of the same microphones can be quite surprising.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: guosh86 on August 28, 2009, 12:11:54 AM
just heard the recording - it does sound as though the front row is too loud with respect to the rest of the orchestra. what i'd usually look out for when recording is the blend and balance between instruments as heard from the audience and try to replicate that. reading bartlett helped me get the basics too, especially with the section on 'troubleshooting sound'.

when i first started out, i believed that getting the conductor's perspective was important since he was the one controlling the sound. it was only later that i realised conductors usually had someone seating in the audience to comment on the balance - thus taking the acoustics of the location into consideration. and so i started moving my mic stand higher and further back

one thing i noted was that by raising the mic stand too high, there was actually the possibility of making the front row too soft, and the back rows way too loud due to the different distances between the mics. and i guess thats where experience comes into play. it took me quite a number of other performances to finally find the sound i wanted, and no doubt theory helped as well

a couple of months later i started working at a studio after realising one of my colleagues in the army band was an engineer there. that was where i picked up the most information i could, as they did rather large projects which helped fine-tune my placement of mics. interestingly, that colleague of mine does not have any theoretical background in the work that he does - he's not read any books about recording, but has gone purely by work experience and his own ears.

to me, its really interesting how someone can simply use their ears and come up with an ortf placement without knowing it ever existed, or place omnis pretty close to the 3-to-1 rule without knowing about it either. perhaps being a classical musician helps in understanding the end result that is desired, in which case its good to just go with your ears. if not, i've found this forum and gearslutz a really good place to get opinions over the sound that you want

in terms of discrete recordings with desirable results, its really a give and take. i heard some recordings from iso mic and they were fantastic, but its a real killer on the sightlines. and i've also done quite a few recordings where the conductor refuses to allow me to put my mics behind him as he feels its stealing the limelight from him  ::). in which case, the recordings have not turned out very well at all. but i believe there are ways around this... i've just not found them yet  :P maybe someone else here has?

welcome to team classical recording though, hope to hear more from you in the future!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on August 28, 2009, 04:48:12 PM
..what i'd usually look out for when recording is the blend and balance between instruments as heard from the audience and try to replicate that.

It strikes me that distance/height relationship is a particularly valuable variable to play with for this material -vs- the type of typical live band recording that is the main focus here at TS because of three things: 1) were talking about true acoustic sources without any PA reinforcement 2) all those individual sources take up a huge amount of real estate on the stage 3) each of those sources have different directional radiation patterns. 

Turning it around, the influence of those things (excepting the PA part) is what historically determined the traditional positional arrangement of elements within the orchestra.

The radiation pattern of the instruments is a big factor.  The violins sound shrill from close and above, but sound more tonally balanced from the same distance away from directly in front.  I've made recordings from the front row center audience perspective (~10' behind the conductor, not an elevated mic position) that I really enjoy becasue of the great sense of natural depth between the front sections and back sections of the orchestra, while retaining a nice modern detailed presence and timbre from the instruments up front.  I don't hear that same sense of depth in many commercial recordings where they strive to (and have more ability to) balance the front and back sounds a bit more by placing the mic higher.  So although I made those recordings that way because of the constraints I was placed under, I find the results sound more natural with an audience perspective- increased depth and reverberance from the back sections with some attractive modern detail and presence element from the violins and violas without them sounding shrill or independent from each other.  Sounds big, deep and there.  That's my self justification anyway.

On the other hand, I've made other recordings from a high tier to the side and almost directly above the front sections of the orchestra that I figured would be compromised at best, but which worked pretty well despite the large distance because of the extra brightness radiating upwards from the strings.

Quote
..or place omnis pretty close to the 3-to-1 rule without knowing about it either.

Not sure exactly how he was using it, but I can't let this one pass without commenting since it's one of my pet peeves that I see repeated all over the web incorrectly applied to stereo mic'ing.  The 3:1 rule applies only to multiple mics that are summed to a single channel, not to to stereo mic'ing or discrete multichannel recording.  If you think about it, nearly all popular stereo mic'ing techniques would break it.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: guosh86 on September 14, 2009, 12:18:55 PM
similar to GB, i've had occasions where the conductor didn't want my mics in the way, so i had to bring them lower and angle them almost flat. interestingly, the end result was quite decent - not the ideal balance, but the band sounded like it would have from the stall seats. the band members liked the recordings, commenting that it sounded natural to them. however, i had other friends who heard it and said the band just sounded flat to them.

the height of the mic stand really makes a big difference when capturing these instruments... i was reading this book recently, Tonmeister Technology and it outlined the different frequencies and sounds captured from instruments at different placements. after reading it, i better understand how to place my mics to get the desired sound, though in a stereo pair i suppose there has to be a compromise in sound especially when recording an orchestra - ie. how to balance the cellos and the violins if they are radiating so differently?

some time back i did a recording of an orchestra with only half the strings, but still the full complement of brasses and woodwinds. to get a better balance, i had to move my mics much closer and lower. the recording definitely didn't sound like it did from the audience, but i felt it was more balanced as it almost sounded like a brass band from the audience!

Not sure exactly how he was using it, but I can't let this one pass without commenting since it's one of my pet peeves that I see repeated all over the web incorrectly applied to stereo mic'ing.  The 3:1 rule applies only to multiple mics that are summed to a single channel, not to to stereo mic'ing or discrete multichannel recording.  If you think about it, nearly all popular stereo mic'ing techniques would break it.

oops! i was sure i had read it somewhere, but now that i've tried looking for it i can't find it. i always assumed that it applied to placing split omnis. sorry about that!

btw GB, have you had any experience with a jecklin disk? i'm in the process of making one following these specs: http://www.studiy.tv/?p=22 (http://www.studiy.tv/?p=22). i realise its the old specs, but i thought i'd give it a shot. i've just made the wooden disk and base, and will be going to source for some foam. i'm thinking of some soundproofing foam that would absorb the high frequencies. just hoping it'd work out right!

also, do you have any tips on placement? i've read the josephson article http://www.josephson.com/tn5.html (http://www.josephson.com/tn5.html) but i was wondering if there was anything i'd have to watch out for?  i'll be testing it out on a choir i'm recording on sunday, i know i should be going by ear to test it, but i don't think they have much time for a soundcheck so i'll have to be fast

though if i can't get it done by this sunday (still have to stick the foam on and bolt the flanges) i'll probably run the DPA 5.1 and hopefully get the samples that i've been promising for a while now  :P

cheers,
guo
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on September 14, 2009, 04:34:45 PM
Lots of Jeckin construction info here from the 'Jecklin craze' a few years back.  I'll dig up some links for you later.  The two schools of thought are to either build it exactly to Jürg's spec's (there are several different sizes and spacing he's used over the years, including a twin disk surround version with a center mic embedded in the front disk) or to take the general idea and run with it, changing the disk construction, size and mic spacing and playing around with using it to find something that works for you.  Moke has a few threads on his miniature square versions that he's used on stage.  Those are the least sight-line problematic Jecklins I've seen.

I think of the Jecklin disc as a way to solidify the imaging of omnis, retaining their natural sound and 'omni-ness' while trading off some wide spaced 'bigness'. Or alternately as a way to use omnis when I can't space them as much as I'd like.  My favorite application is for small groups who play in a circle around the disc, where the compactness and 360 degree pickup along with the good imaging all become virtues.

I tend to prefer using a Jecklin baffle up close, probably becasue of the relatively close mic to mic spacing required when using normal sized disks.  Farther back I like spacing the mics more and would need a pretty large disk to still 'shadow' the mics effectively.  I've considered spacing the mics farther and using two separate small disks- one relatively close to each mic, but have never tried that.  Tending to value the feeling of 'spaciousness and size' in orchestra recordings over 'razor sharp imaging', the J disc is sort of a compromise for me in orchestra applications- a way to still run omnis in a narrower configuration.  It would be interesting to supplement a close, centered J-disk with two omni outriggers.

For a chorus as typically setup, my first thought would be regular spaced omnis since in that case I'd probably be shooting for even more big openness and blend vs sharp imaging. Spacing the mics more would also help to balance all the singers in that wide source.  I don't think that the J-disk would be a bad or problematic choice though.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on September 14, 2009, 05:38:15 PM
Photos and write up on my J disks here (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,96009.msg1365706.html#msg1365706), Bunch of Homebrew Jeckins and results (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,81611.0.html), old master thread from the archives (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,5231.0.html).  There are more if you care to dig deeper.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: guosh86 on September 16, 2009, 12:43:52 PM
thanks for the replies GB! much appreciated! btw, your bug eyed surround rig looks cool!

i'll be getting some soundproofing foam and gluing it on to my disc to see how that works. the reason i'm trying the disc out is because the choir is about 20 strong, and some pieces will involve the choir members in the 4 corners of the room. i want to see whether this surround effect works with better imaging ;D

on the other hand, if i can't get the disk done on time i'll probably roll with the dpa 5.1... but i really want to try the disk out and see if it can do a job. its my first time recording a choir (i usually record orchestras and other classical ensembles) plus i've been reading quite a bit on mic placement so hopefully i can put it to practice and get a good recording this time. frankly, i'm still figuring out what the 'sweet spot' should sound like. i've never really known what sound to look out for frankly, and either get too much or too little of the room into my recordings according to various people. guess i need much more practice!

 
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: guosh86 on September 18, 2009, 08:41:25 AM
oreo anyone?  ;D
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on September 18, 2009, 03:46:47 PM
Looks like the real deal from here.

Here's to enjoying some tasty recordings with a nice creamy center and contrast between sides.  ;)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: jnorman34 on September 19, 2009, 07:13:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I took a shot at doing a live video performance yesterday at Octoberfest in Mt. Angel, Oregon, in the wonderful St. Mary's historic church. My video recorder conked out on me, so i made the video part using my little panasonic FX100 point and shoot camera. i recorded the audio with an ORTF pair of KM184s>Lexicon U42s>IBM T61 Thinkpad running Reaper. The performers are RoseWynde, flute and harp duo.

I edited the video in Ulead DVD factory to remove the audio from the original video clip and add in the Reaper audio files. In Reaper, i inserted reafir to do some noise reduction, and boosted the audio level a little bit. otherwise, the reverb is just the natural reverb of the church (which is a huge cruciform church). i will try to upload a shot of the church, and will include a link to the video on YouTube (i dont know how to embed the youtube video, but if someone will tell me how, i will do that.)

here is the link to the Video:
http://redirectingat.com/?id=690X1299&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DVskXkH01Q4Q
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on September 20, 2009, 07:12:46 PM
Super nice job. Love the lush recorded ambiance, perfectly tuned to the sparse nature of this music. There's nothing like great sounding real spaces.  Capturing the feel of performers in those ambiances is really rewarding.

After checking out the sweet 'Ricola' horn in your photo  ;D, I noticed the vertical cylindrical forms attached around the bases of the fluted columns.  Tube traps? Speakers? if so, PA for voice only?
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: jnorman34 on September 20, 2009, 07:25:34 PM
thanks gb - yep, that is a hella space with amazing natural reverb.  and yes, those are speakers for the PA - did not notice what kind.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: guosh86 on September 22, 2009, 06:28:15 AM
sounds great! i'd kill for a space like that...

great musicians + great space + great recording =  :happy:


on a side note, i got the jecklin disk done and did a choir recording with it  ;D thanks gb for all the help!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Brian Skalinder on September 22, 2009, 10:53:48 AM
i got the jecklin disk done and did a choir recording with it  ;D thanks gb for all the help!

Nice disk!  How'd the recording turn out?
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: guosh86 on September 22, 2009, 11:31:01 AM
hey brian!

turned out pretty good. interesting how it sounds though. here's a short snippet... let me know what you think!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Brian Skalinder on September 22, 2009, 01:27:43 PM
guosh86 -- I like it!  I admit, though, I'm partial to baffled omnis v. split.  I like the sound on the sample you provided.  How does it sound "interesting" to you?  Tough for me to tell what you mean, since I'm not familiar with the performance group, recording space, other recordings you've made before, etc.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: guosh86 on September 22, 2009, 01:54:55 PM
i felt it was interesting because i had a small threading issue with the right mic flange - it was probably an inch further away from the disk than the left side. thus, at times i felt i got quite a different sound from my left and right channel. i felt the imaging on the left was much better, whereas the right side was rather hazy - it was sounding a little like my usual omnis, rather roomy

in the end i compensated by turning up my pre levels on the left a little to balance with the right side. strangely it still turned out fine! right now i'm curious as to how it would sound if i get my mics equidistant from the disk... and i might find out soon. might be recording a guitar ensemble tomorrow!

i posted this up on gearslutz too, and one comment was that it sounded like cardoids! i'm not sure how the jecklin should sound, my recordings certainly don't sound like what i heard from the takacs quartet early string quartets cd (well, duh. they're a string quartet and i'm recording a choir  ;D but i still felt quite a bit of tonal difference). don't get me wrong though, i'm quite happy with the results of my first test of the disk. sounded realistic to me when i was monitoring with my IEMs... i walked up to the disk to have a listen at times, and it seemed really accurate

any tips of placement though? i've read that the jecklin has a recording angle of 45, so i'd be capturing a soundstage of approximately 90 degrees. however, i also read that it has to be placed closer than other techniques. whats your experience though? i'm really new to this and i'd like to maximize my recordings!

also, i've got a clip of a song that had the choir walk in from the back of the room and take up positions along the middle aisle, kind of a surround effect. sounds great on earphones... i could upload it if you're interested.

this is the room i recorded in... a really small chapel, 2nd floor of an art museum. nice and cosy  :)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on September 22, 2009, 05:21:12 PM
Curious if you got a chance to listen with your IEMs while positioning the disk and playing with the mic spacing.  Personally I really learn a lot about how the configuration works by doing that.  Another great way to learn exactly how your configuration responds is to set it up and do the classic 'walk around' test: make a quick recording of yourself walking all the way around the rig in a circle, stopping and announcing your position at intervals along the way (an easy way is announcing the clock face numbers- 12:00, 1:00, 2:00 etc, might use tighter 30 minute increments for better angular resolution the front stage).  It can be useful to repeat the walk at several different distances from the mics so you get a feel for how things change with distance.  That way you get a good feel for the recording angle, imaging qualities, tone and sense of depth for various mic'ing distances.  Just remember to announce the distance at the beginning of the track so you don't get mixed up when you listen.  I've setup and done this in the parking lot of a nearby church, to assess various A-B spacings, mic angles and the effect of sphere attachments on the mics, and got some odd looks in the process. 8)  If you get a chance to do it before or after the session in the actual room then all the better.

I look forward to listening to your sample tonight. I'd love to hear the 'choir walk' clip too if you get a chance.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: guosh86 on September 23, 2009, 12:30:11 PM
hey gb!

i've seen that test being done on youtube actually. haven't had a chance to try it out yet though, my room's really small and cluttered so there isn't much space to move around. i'd like to try it at the venue though, would really help my decisions in mic placement. problem is that i'm rarely allowed into the venues before the performers arrive  >:(

i can imagine it looks really odd though, but then again they'd probably figure that out when i whip out my furry jecklin!  ;D   

usually i setup in the hall in the midst of the soundcheck and commit one of the most basic mistakes... i judge the sound of the ensemble from where i am setting up (eg. in one of the corners of the hall) and see how realistic it is. now i feel i should walk around and locate the sound that i wish to capture before i place my mics

i'm never happy with the sound i capture though, i always feel it is missing a little something... clarity, tone, maybe a little magic dust. i'll have to figure something out in the next recording session i have, but its probably more to do with my technique than anything. gear would definitely make a difference, but as brian has pointed out to me, it'd be more beneficial for me to maximize the potential of what i have before an upgrade in gear would make any sense. i'm sure i can get good results with what i have, i just haven't found out how yet!


excuse the rant, got a little carried away  ;D

i got the choir walk track here: https://www.yousendit.com/download/ZW9EYkJtcWZubVZjR0E9PQ (https://www.yousendit.com/download/ZW9EYkJtcWZubVZjR0E9PQ)
basically what they did was they started with a solo soprano in the middle of the stage, joined later on by another soprano as the rest of the choir walked in from the back of the room in 2 files, turning towards the audience in the chairs as they sang.

apologies though, i was messing around with my T+ UA-5, as i accidentally turned the left channel down. started recording a little late, and raised the height of the mics for the actual performance. personally i felt the rehearsal placement was better, but thats life isn't it?

cheers,
guo
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: jnorman34 on September 25, 2009, 10:18:14 PM
hi guys - as we all know, trying to record live performances of classical music with audiences present, often mixed in with passing truck noises, HVAC issues, etc, can be a very problematic affair, and rife with heavy background noise in the tracks.  what kind of noise reduction plugins are you using, and how are you compensating for the various effects that noise reduction has on the overall EQ of the result?
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: WiFiJeff on September 26, 2009, 03:08:48 PM
I've been using iZotope RX (I use it standalone, but it also can be used as a plugin in many audio editors) since May.  There is a thread on it in the computer section.

I love it.

Jeff
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on September 26, 2009, 03:32:55 PM
I've played around with the tools available in Samplitude (my version also included the Cleaning & Restoration suite) and have gotten some good results reducing HVAC rumble and other background noise, impulse de-clicking for fabric rubbing against mic noises, and spectral editing for coughs, squeaks, candy wrappers and that one especially loud clapper that always seems to sit nearby.  Not sure how comparable it is to Izotope RX and I haven't had the time to get into it deep enough to really commit to applying it.. just enough to know that it works well when applied properly.  I'm holding off on committing to applying those modifications until I have my playback system really well sorted.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: guosh86 on September 29, 2009, 06:47:00 AM
been using the waves x-noise and z-noise

i find z-noise pretty effective, as it has eq built-in where i can adjust the eq on the spot to keep the sound as similar as possible (though with pretty poor speakers, i'm not really that sure and don't dare to tinker around too much)

however, the guys who i work with in the studio aren't very impressed by the waves restoration bundle. its probably not the best value for money, and there are probably better plugins to use. i forgot exactly what they were recommending, but i'll ask the next time i go down.

so far i've only had to use the noise reduction for the inherent noise of my equipment, extracting the noise from a quiet track and then reducing it by a certain measure. haven't experimented with removing all the other background noises yet though. i take it as part and parcel of a live performance  ::)

curious as to how it works too though
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on January 27, 2010, 04:12:28 PM
tap, tap, tap..

Pretty quiet in here, but then a low noise floor is fitting for the team classical thread I suppose.

A last minute posting.. I'm not familiar with these works, which will be performed tonight in a benefit for Haiti.  If any of you are familiar with them, can you tell me what dynamics I might expect? With a full 125 piece orchestra I suppose I should prepare for full scale symphonic range regardless, but I suspect much of the material may be more mornful and heartwrenching than bombastic:

Barber: Adagio for Strings
Elgar: Nimrod from Enigma Variations
Beethoven: Leonore Overture No. 3
Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 4
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: mfrench on January 27, 2010, 04:17:04 PM
Headroom!!
The *Barber piece is so friggin quiet that you'll get breath noises if the mics are close at hand.
Anything above that, and you're looking at a need for _at least_ 25dB headroom because of it.

*became the "US nat'l song of mourning" during JFK's assassination and wake/funeral period.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on January 27, 2010, 04:49:14 PM
Thanks Mike!

That's the challenge in these situations, which litterally range from a whisper to a scream.

BTW, caught a great chamber trio last weekend.  Music for clarinet, cello & piano in a nicely intimate room.  A series organized by the cellist and held in a local operatic space - both of which I had somehow overlooked it for years, right under my nose.

Featured Julian Milkis on the clarinet, originally from St. Petersburg, Russa, the only student to study under Benny Goodman- an incredibly expressive and virtuosic musician.  Saw a listing in a local monthy news rag at breakfast on Sat and headed over to hear the performance the next day. What a suprise treat.  Performed works by Louise Farrene, Robert Kahn, Mendelssohn, Nino Rota, and added two fantastic Astor Piazzolla pieces as an encore (noted as his favorite modern composer).
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on January 28, 2010, 12:36:54 PM
The *Barber piece is so friggin quiet that you'll get breath noises if the mics are close at hand.
^^
Sure enough, the conductor was a heavy breather, sucking in a sizable breath just before each movement, but I caulk that up to adding sonic emotion and atmosphere.

Of course there were the usual assorted, not especially helpful audience noises: snorting, wheezing, snorkling, hauckling, rustling, fidgeting, scratching, and jangling we've all fretted about at some time or another- but it struck me this time that most of those offenders are actually church-mouse quiet during the climaxes and do all the noisy stuff during the more quiet bits.  I visually confirmed this by observing no less than 3 separate chronic fidgeter/noisemakers who sat completely motionless, holding their breath during the big, noise blanketing climaxes.  Irony.

My partner has been training for a mini-marathon and had strained her right calf muscle last week.  We parked about a 1/2 mile from the venue and was hurrying over there when she stepped off a curb and severely tore the muscle a few blocks from the venue.  She was in severe pain and unable to walk. I managed to get the car, drive her to the theater door, nearly carry her to the seat, park the car again and return just before the start of the performance.  I sprinted to a drug store at intermission and bought ibuprofen, instant cold packs and a compression bandage to patch her up for the remainder of the performance.  Ouch.  She was in severe pain, but still turned a grimaced face to give the eye to one especially offensive jangler/rustler/whisperer who immediately shut up for the remainder of the night.  Not a technique I'd choose to use regularly but highly effective!  That fact that she is a true recording asset is only one of the minor reasons that I lover her.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: boojum on January 28, 2010, 03:36:14 PM
GB -  Just finding a babe who will tolerate the recording insanity is a great deal.  You took home the pick of the litter!    ;o)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on January 28, 2010, 03:59:35 PM
I can't complain much.. at least about that particular aspect of our multi-faceted relationship.  If anything, she is quick to judge and much less tolerant of 'bad' music, which I can more easily endure while waiting for a redeeming musical moment or listening to the purely technical aspects of a recording.  But that's probably a good check on the audio geek in me.

[edit] On the topic of audience noises- the last few chamber/symphonic things I've recorded had moments at the end of particularly impressive or moving pieces where, as the final notes died away to silence, a number of people can be heard releasing soft sighs of emotional delight/melencholy/profundity.  That stuff is an especially welcome contribution to the 'liveness' in my recordings.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: dean on January 28, 2010, 09:54:28 PM
[edit] On the topic of audience noises- the last few chamber/symphonic things I've recorded had moments at the end of particularly impressive or moving pieces where, as the final notes died away to silence, a number of people can be heard releasing soft sighs of emotional delight/melencholy/profundity.  That stuff is an especially welcome contribution to the 'liveness' in my recordings.

Agreed.  Appropriate, well timed moments of audience delight can really make a recording, especially with all the "extreme close up" recording I do which can make for "canned" sounding recordings without the audience.

Also, Lee, that's a hilarious story about your partner!  Karen's the same way, though I've never seen the effects when enduring injury.  If the next scene I'm in gets out of hand, maybe I'll stomp on her foot at set break!   ;D   ;)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: DSatz on January 28, 2010, 10:46:29 PM
The Tschaikowsky symphony has full brass and tympani with many real fortissimo passages, especially in the outer movements.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: rhinowing on January 29, 2010, 12:19:05 AM
hey guys--i am pretty much a noob with classical recording. This is a short sample of the recording I did of Kronos Quartet and Wu Man tonight (SP-BMC-2>R-09--I have to run 007 setup due to insane venue security). I was about 30 feet back, close to center. All I've done with it so far is amplify...how do you guys think it sounds? I was also wondering if there are any common EQ curves or anything you'd recommend using on it.
(instrumentation was string quartet plus a chinese lute, with some assorted percussion thrown in)

http://netfiles.uiuc.edu/valocch1/eastisred.mp3
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: boojum on January 29, 2010, 06:21:21 PM
"The East is Red!"   That's an old chestnut.   ;o)

Sounds good but distant.  I am assuming you recorded this in the PRC.  True??
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: rhinowing on January 29, 2010, 07:24:04 PM
nope, central illinois... :P . Guess I'll be running cards next time
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: jnorman34 on March 16, 2010, 07:41:11 PM
hi boys and girls - didnt want to let this thread disappear. 

btw - what are youse guys using for monitors these days?  i need to pick up a new pair of powered monitors for my studio...
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: boojum on March 17, 2010, 12:56:45 AM
Jim -  I am running a pair of the old Mackie HR824's.  They are not the best for classical but they work OK.  When I am really fish fry flush I would like Spendors similar.  Like I really need them.  ;o)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: guysonic on March 17, 2010, 03:01:59 AM
New classical postings going up on my site in next few days thanks to old friend/customer recording three different venues. 

One is complete Mahler 8th in two parts. 

Another is a well performed by pro orchestra Dvorak Cello Concert.

And a third is a more spiritually oriented 'Midwest Motetsoc' choral presentation.

These selections are quite lengthy so doubt any but the most interested in excellently recorded classical/choral would be downloading and listening to these, but this is THE thread for such interests.

You will find these on my recordings page in the performance section at: www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm (http://www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: SClassical on March 24, 2010, 09:50:39 PM
Most well known classical CD companies like DG, Sony Classical, EMI, RCA etc monitor their recordings using B&W speakers especially the 800 series:

http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/display.aspx?infid=4621

I use the B&W805s and I must say they do sound the best I've heard..

They are very clear, clean, powerful and well balanced that it makes you feel you're in the concert hall!!!

They are a bit pricey but worth every penny!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: boojum on March 25, 2010, 02:28:04 AM
Tannoy concentrics are supposed to be killer.  The British speakers are good.  The Tannoy's are used by a few mixers who like their coherent sound.  I have not heard them and am only passing on what I have read.  I would like to hear them, for sure.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: jnorman34 on March 25, 2010, 03:36:55 PM
i picked up a used pair of yamaha HS80m's.   after i test them a bit, i will post my impessions.  my last monitors were tannoy active reveals, and have been using some alesis M1 actives for the past couple months while i was shopping.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: 0vu on March 28, 2010, 09:12:53 PM
It varies but usually:

For stereo stuff not needing a full low end response *, ATC SCM20A-Pro or Dynaudio C2 with Bryston 4B
For stereo stuff needing more low end response, either SCM20ASL-Pro with SCM 0.1/15 Pro Sub or SCM100A/SL**
For surround stuff in 5.1, mix and match between 5 x SCM20A-Pro and 2 x SCM100A/SL with SCM 0.1/15Pro Sub

Or sometimes others.

Edited to add -
* Or in smaller 'control rooms'
**Choice mostly dictated by what I have available, tempered by how many stairs I have to carry things up to get into the venue/'control room'.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: guysonic on March 29, 2010, 02:10:57 AM
Finally got 4 new classical recordings edited, uploaded, and site's live performance section updated.  Selections of interest look as shown below, and can be found by clicking on this link: http://www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm#dvorak (http://www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm#dvorak)

(http://www.sonicstudios.com/dvorak.jpg)

Please enjoy these excellently performed and recorded selections.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: live2496 on March 30, 2010, 12:09:11 PM
i picked up a used pair of yamaha HS80m's.   after i test them a bit, i will post my impessions.  my last monitors were tannoy active reveals, and have been using some alesis M1 actives for the past couple months while i was shopping.

I think the Yamaha HS80M's are good value for the money. I would be interested in what you think about their suitability on the low end. Will you use a subwoofer with them?

Currently I am using some EV MS802 and I think they would be very similar in sound to the HS80M's. But they are getting old and the foam diffuser on the tweeter has deteriorated. EV may still have parts available but as they are old I am thinking that it's time to replace them.

I have been looking at B&W's for a while. I listened locally to the 805s and they held up pretty nicely on the highs and mids compared to the 802D's. The 802D's had more lower-end extension, but other than that I couldn't tell the difference. I'm leaning toward the 805s as my next speaker. Something with the diamond dome tweeter would be nice, but I can use 805s for now.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Teen Wolf Blitzer on April 26, 2010, 01:39:20 PM
Hey guys.  I need help identifying a few tunes.  I believe they are both classical songs but not really sure.  I know I've heard both many times.  Any help appreciated.  They are both played on the saw.

The first song is here..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8o-KML6Usg

The second tune is like the first minute of this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EArjXWqhyQM

Thanks!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: notlance on April 26, 2010, 02:15:11 PM
The second song is "Beautiful Dreamer" written by Stephen Foster (1826 – 1864), American popular/art song composer.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Teen Wolf Blitzer on April 26, 2010, 02:37:56 PM
Thanks!  Hopefully someone knows the first.  I've heard it a million times it seems.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: jnorman34 on April 26, 2010, 04:16:14 PM
live - i am finding the HS80m's to be pretty good, and a fair improvement over my tannoy active reveals.  imaging is clean and precise, and freq pesonse is about average for an 8" two-way system.  yes, i am using a sub with them, and you can hear the difference...

i recorded a concert yesterday of "rising stars" which was fun.  it was held in the historic Elsinore Theater here in salem, oregon - a great sounding venue, and perhaps 300 people.  got a stunningly nice pull on a young cellist by using an ORTF pair of KM140s flanked by a pair od DPA 4061 omnis.  by blending the 140s at unity and adding in the omnis at about -20dB, the soundstage is clean and clear and i picked up the width and depth of the omnis along with just enough of the nice natural ambience of the hall - sounds purty good to me...
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: fmaderjr on April 26, 2010, 05:31:26 PM
Hey guys.  I need help identifying a few tunes.  I believe they are both classical songs but not really sure.  I know I've heard both many times.  Any help appreciated.  They are both played on the saw.

The first song is here..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8o-KML6Usg


"Sleepwalk" (originally by Santo & Johnny around 1959)

Shouldn't this have had it's own thread?
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on April 26, 2010, 06:16:47 PM
Beat me to it.

Here's Santo & Johnny doing it back in '59- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogxTQXAgY3Q&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogxTQXAgY3Q&feature=related)
& Skunk Baxter working the pedal steel with the Ventures- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Jkhs_1FBcE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Jkhs_1FBcE)

Not classical... but certainly classic!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: boojum on April 28, 2010, 02:32:03 AM
It does not seem that long ago, but it was: 50+ years.  I never saw S&J play the tune but I sure listened to it plenty.  Those closing chords are a part of my brain stem.  Such as it is.   ;o)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: live2496 on April 28, 2010, 11:59:56 AM
live - i am finding the HS80m's to be pretty good, and a fair improvement over my tannoy active reveals.  imaging is clean and precise, and freq pesonse is about average for an 8" two-way system.  yes, i am using a sub with them, and you can hear the difference...

Thanks for the feedback on the speakers.

I'm glad someone knew the songs that were posted. I heard that song "Sleepwalk" a lot on the radio in the 60's, but never knew the name of it. I think it must have been the Santo & Johnny original, but I see that Ventures have a nice rendition of it.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on April 28, 2010, 02:37:57 PM
Bette Anne Steele's version with string section and lyrics- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pCUR0gMXDc&feature=related

& one other version with lyrics, Gene & the Pearls (featuring a Roy Orbison'esque Bolero rhythm & 'verby vocal)-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j09XBlq95k0&feature=related

Back on topic, I picked up four B&W802 series 3's a while back which have worked quite well for my monitoring and general listening.  They were relatively inexpensive since they were superceeded by the 800 Nautilus series 10 years ago or so, then later by the D series which are well out of my price range. These aparently were somewhat of a classical monitoring standard back in the day, but certainly don't fit the self powered monitor description as floor standers and need space out in the room.  & the room is by far my weakest link currently.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: live2496 on April 28, 2010, 04:01:01 PM
Four? Do you listen to ambisonic decodes with them?
What do you use to power them?
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on April 28, 2010, 06:01:10 PM
I've moved to doing surround recording and monitoring has been the retriction to post processing the recordings well. The motivation to pick up the second pair was primarily to have 3 identical speakers across the front (L,C,R).  Most of my surround recordings are 4 channel (Left,Right,Center,Back) with a single channel of surround information.  For now I just mult that Back channel to multiple speakers around the back and sides, which works suprisingly well for general hall ambience and audience applause.

Once I get into processing these recoringds I plan to look into ways of decorelating that single Back channel into 2 channels for typical 5 channel playback. For that work it would be great to have 5 so they would be identical all around. I don't think it's that important to have the same speakers around the sides & back for enjoyment listening, but for tweaking the raw multi-channel recordings into something finished that translates elsewhere well, I think it would be benefitial.

The room is setup on a diagonal and I've put the 4th 802 in the center back, between pairs of B&W surrounds and Klipsch KSB 3.1 bookshelfs wired in parallel as Ls & Rs.

I power them all with a 7-channel Panasonic SA-XR55 class D reciever for the time being, which sounds much better than it has any right to, and switches to a bi-amp mode for stereo.  I'd like to improve that, but I know the room will benifit more from some bass trapping.

Funny you mention the ambisonic decodes as I just picked up a Tetramic last month.  I've not decoded any surround playback from it yet, only realtime stereo decoding of the raw files directly out of the VVmic software (which is really ear-opening to play with).  Of course now I'm burning to hear a full ambisonic decode so I may shift things around.  I also have a few recordings I've made with 4 omnis spaced across the front of the stage that I'd like to playback with all four speakers in a row some time, just because.

I'm about to walk out the door to drive up to Merlefest in a little bit so appologies if I don't respond for a week!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: DigiGal on October 05, 2010, 07:56:47 PM
This thread has not been active for quite a while.  Thought I'd give it a bump, since the classical concert season is back.

I recently uploaded a recording I made about a year ago to the Community Audio Archive of a classical chamber orchestra.

http://www.archive.org/details/aco2009-10-30.DigiGal.vp88.flac16
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on October 05, 2010, 09:49:20 PM
Thanks for the revival, it's that time of year.  Looking forward to it.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: live2496 on October 05, 2010, 09:58:30 PM
Have you made any recordings with the Tetramic yet?
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on October 05, 2010, 10:57:00 PM
Nothing classical and nothing recent.  I recorded two music festivals in the spring and an used it on-stage for a Charlie Hunter Trio date last spring.  The computer I had the decoding software setup on died and I need to setup another one but just haven't gotten to it yet.  Pretty cool though when I played with some simple realtime stereo decoding.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: live2496 on October 05, 2010, 11:12:02 PM
The Soundfield plugin is available for free now. No key required.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: live2496 on October 05, 2010, 11:22:45 PM
http://www.archive.org/details/aco2009-10-30.DigiGal.vp88.flac16

DigiGal, thanks for the link.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: DigiGal on October 19, 2010, 12:55:53 PM
I was looking at some AKG mics and found this info of "Orchestral Recording Basics" on their website, here's a link:

http://www.akg.com/site/product_tipps/powerslave,id,25,nodeid,2,_language,EN.html
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on October 20, 2010, 03:18:19 PM
Fall is starting to roll. Wind ensemble this week.. with a soprano (the wildcard). String quartets this weekend and next week. I usually dig wind ensembles, but I'm far more particular about sopranos (not a big fan of the trill as standard operating proceedure for every note sung).  Hey venue managers, time to oil those squeaky seat hinges!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: notlance on October 20, 2010, 05:47:53 PM
Yep, it's the crazy time.  I've already recorded a couple of choirs, orchestras, woodwind trios, string quartets, marching bands(!), audition tapes, and a world music festival in the last month.  The 3 weeks before Christmas will be busier still.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Shadow_7 on October 20, 2010, 06:54:23 PM
So how does one partake of this busy time of year? 

I generally end up recording a few Tuba Christmas's and that's about it.  I'm not a social animal, which is why I think recording suits me.  As I wont be talking while recording.  Or having others coming up to say hi either.  I'm also not a local so I still need directions to most places.  Born on one coast, raised on the other, and currently living somewhere in the middle.  I'm not a church goer nor have I signed up for / taught anything academic in the past decade.  Factor in that many within arms reach of me probably haven't heard of the internet.  Or that there's an option of having someone pick up trash instead of just burning it.  But I'm still within driving distance (1 hour drive) of three fairly major cities.  And within ten miles of the nearest University.  Plus my car gets reasonable gas mileage.  If for no other reason than to discourage the rabbits and birds from taking up residence in/on my car, I need to get out more.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on October 20, 2010, 07:04:18 PM
Universities with decent music programs are often a good opportunity.  Many cities have small organizations that arrange concerts to suppport jazz or classical music groups, some of those are church based, some are not but use churches for their venues, some are not and use whatever space they can find.  Many of those are word of mouth or email mailing list type things.  I've found some advertized in various community free newspapers as well as the culural events rags and calendars.  Alot depends on where you are. 
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: dean on October 20, 2010, 09:11:06 PM
Additionally, there is money to be made.  Students generally are required to record their recitals.  Oftentimes the performance program utilizes tech program students to do the recording, but there's not always enough, or any, recording students to do the actual work.  Additionally, it's typically required that the students pay for the recording work.  Soooo, opportunity.

Hang a flyer advertizing your skillz at the local college/univ that has music performance program.  I've done a bunch of opera recital recording (typically running blumlein on stage/lip at about 6'^).  I charge a $100 flat rate for record, post production, track and transfer, and provide a wav and flac disc to the student.  Generally rave reviews, of the likes of "awesome, and certainly better than the student recordist who f'd up my spring recital from last year, and $50 less, to boot!!!"  And once you get one good student, they're good at recommending you to others.  Last spring I had to turn some folks away because I'd already be booked on a particular night. 

Heard some amazing and inspiring work doing this.  Also suffered through some sheer horror.  Preponderance has been very good, though, and the money's been a nice little gear purchase funding source!!  I'd have been happy to do it for free, actually, but the students made it clear that, at least at the two programs for which I've worked in Minneapolis, they're required to pay.

Another benefit is you can cozy up to the accompanists who can (a) refer you to other students, (b) turn you on to other events of interest, and (c) blow your mind at how good they are.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on October 20, 2010, 10:18:26 PM
Cool gig, Dean!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: notlance on October 21, 2010, 12:08:22 AM
I've gotten cozy with a couple of local groups.  One is a professional chamber music organization that performs all around the area, often in rural churches that have wonderful acoustics.  (And are often really quiet.)  Each summer they have a week long chamber music camp an I have become the camp's "recordist in residence" if there is such a thing.  We have a couple of recording sessions during the week.  I got started with this chamber music group by just showing up at a concert and asking if I could record them.  To keep them happy I try to turn around a CD the next day since they often repeat the same concert and like to modify their performance based on what they hear.

One of the local HS has a very fine music program with an outstanding Jazz vocal group and Jazz band.  I record just about every vocal, band, and orchestra concert they do, and quite frankly, they love me.  I try to get a student to help record and teach him or her a few things about recording.  I can pretty much do what I want recording wise, so I have been able to try out various techniques.

Other recording opportunities tend to be one shot deals.  Like gutbucket suggested, I scout the local arts calendar/arts magazine for concerts.  Then I try to contact the artists in advance to ask permission to record.  Explain that the recording is for personal use and that no copies will be made without the artist's permission.  Don't post recordings on the internet without permission.  If I don't hear back from the artist giving me permission to record, I just show up at the concert with my gear anyway.  I confidently start setting up my gear and I've never been told that I can not record.  Most musicians are flattered.  However, I do try to be as discreet as possible, usually using only one stereo mic.  I have the advantage of being a middle-aged white male, so people assume I have the authority to be doing what I am doing.  I don't make these rules, but that's the way it is.  Dress nicely.  Be polite.  Send a CD to the artists as soon as possible after the concert.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: faninor on December 15, 2010, 02:39:03 PM
I've been taping (mostly rock shows) for 8 years. Strictly low profile/frequently stealth. I'm starting to feel like I've taken the low profile/stealth path to the point where I'm satisfied with my techniques and my results. My rig (DPA4060 > MMA6000 > Tascam DR-07 / DR-03) certainly could be upgraded, but since I'm satisfied with my results already... it makes more sense to me to begin to explore the open taping realm. So I have some questions about microphones.

I'm thinking that in terms of capsules, my first priority should be a pair of cardioids, and second priority should be a pair of figure 8s, then later omnis. I think cardioids will allow the greatest flexibility on their own and I'm very interested in exploring midside and Blumlein configurations. Would you experienced folks tend to agree that this makes sense?

I've also been trying to pick specific microphones. From my experience (which is limited more to amplified live music i.e. rock acts rather than orchestras) it seems Schoeps (Colette or CCM) and Neumann (KM) seem like popular choices and I've heard very nice recordings made with each. Is it safe for me to assume that these are also good choices for unamplified orchestra, choir, etc. type situations? Are there other popular / recommended microphones that I should also be looking into?
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on December 15, 2010, 04:39:46 PM
Hi fanior, Schoeps and Neumann are highly respected in acoustic/classical recording world, but IMO you are pretty well set for getting into this genre of recording using the gear you already have.  If you are happy with your minature omnis for recoding rock shows, you'll probably be even happier using them for this type of material.  Of course directional mics can work very well also and can be a better answer for some situations, but honestly I feel they have more value vs omnis in addressing problems of rock type shows and their associated acoustic challenges such as less than acoustically great sounding rooms and noisy crowds.  The Blumlein technique is an exception to that, in that it only works well in situations where omnis also work. Fortunately with this type of music, you're more likey to find quiet attentive audiences listening to unamplified musicians in good to excellent sounding spaces- situations where omnis can really shine and are often the first choice.

Your 4060s can be rigged for open recording and are more than capable of producing excellent recordings in these types of situations. I'd concentrate on the gear you have for a while and explore different ways to rig it for this type of thing: A-B spaced; baffled techniques like using a Jecklin disk; boundary mounted against the stage surface itself, on the back of chairs, on walls, balconies; etc.  Their small size is a real advantage even with open recording, sometimes allowing you to put the mics places that would not be allowed with more physically and visually imposing gear.

Once you get a good feel for what omnis can do in these situations, and what you feel they might be lacking, that experience will give you a strong basis of comparison for trying other types of mics and mic techniques.  If exploring those different techniques is a big part of your motivation, then a set of mics with switchable polar patterns can be a great way to experiment with different configs without breaking the bank with expensive mics.  Of the mics I have that fit that description, I've gotten a lot of milage out of my ADK TLs.  Their four switchable patterns allow trying most every stereo mic'ing configuration including mid-side and blumlein.  There are other mics that fit that description as well of course.. it's just that the ADKs have worked very well for me and have been a very good value, both sound and experince-wise.  Keep in mind that most multi-pattern mics are large diaphram types so they are much larger and heavier.  You'll be open taping all the way, hauling more gear (preamp with phantom power required), and bringing a larger footprint to the situation.   But going that route, you can develop a feel for what works best you and your recording scenarios, before making costly investments in specific mics.  Even then you may choose to use your 4060 rig more often than not.  At least that's how I feel.

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: faninor on December 15, 2010, 09:27:25 PM
Thanks. I was thinking that I might still use the 4060s concurrently with larger directional mics but I hadn't really thought about running an open rig with only them. One area I want to focus on is local school bands. I haven't been to see any of the schools here perform yet but I have a feeling most of them don't perform in the greatest sounding rooms, where I expect that directional mics would probably be an asset. I'll have to give some thought to microphones with switchable polar pattern, hmmmm.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: matahaka on January 11, 2011, 03:32:01 AM
Just posting a link for the Stereo Zoom Pdf, seeing how the previous links are no longer valid, in case someone like me pokes around here.  ;D

http://www.rycote.com/images/uploads/The_Stereophonic_Zoom.pdf
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: rjp on January 11, 2011, 09:04:03 AM
Once you get a good feel for what omnis can do in these situations, and what you feel they might be lacking, that experience will give you a strong basis of comparison for trying other types of mics and mic techniques.  If exploring those different techniques is a big part of your motivation, then a set of mics with switchable polar patterns can be a great way to experiment with different configs without breaking the bank with expensive mics.  Of the mics I have that fit that description, I've gotten a lot of milage out of my ADK TLs.

Are the TLs discontinued? I don't see them listed on the ADK website. I'm saving my pennies for a multipattern LDC set, but I'm torn between going relatively low-budget with the AKG Perception 420, or shooting a bit higher with something like the AT4050 (about as expensive as I can consider). There are certainly arguments in favor of either - the two have comparable specs, and I've had great results with my Perception 170 set (cardioid SDCs). The Rode NT2-A is another candidate I'm considering.

As much as I'd like to get a set of C 414s, that's just too much of a budget-buster.  :o
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on January 11, 2011, 09:53:25 AM
The ADK TL is discontinuted, but pops up in the yardsale occasionally. AT4050 is a nice and well respected mic, I'm not familiar with the AKG Perception line.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: jnorman34 on March 15, 2011, 01:25:01 AM
how about a little telemann?  i got to do a nice flute recital down in eugene at the U of O saturday night.  i ran an ORTF pair of KM140s with a pair of DPA 4090 flanks>lexicon U42s>thinkpad t410 running reaper.  video was shot with panasonic ZS7, edited and rendered at 720p in adobe premiere.  is there a way to embed the youtube video?

i would like your opinion on the audio, and would love some comments on how to improve video quality.  thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr3dg8oaNCs
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on March 15, 2011, 08:00:08 PM
Sounds very good to me John, the image is quite nice.  Is all the ambience I hear naturally occuring from the room?  That wide and deep, open ambient quality is what I feel the omni flanks really nail for me.  I think sometimes they sort of exagerate that quality, in a good way, in that I'm sometimes suprised that the ambience sometimes sounds richer to me using them than it did live. I do hear a slight touch of brightness or sibilance that may be due to Youtube codec compression, or could simply be the inexpensive AT earbuds I have plugged directly into this machine at work where I'm listening. Where were the mics placed relative to the performer?

Very good performance as well from Ms Cardona, which always tends to help make recordings sound their best IME.  ;)

I'm no expert on video, but I think it comes across quite nicely within the constraints of the existing room lighting.  That's a difficult dynamic range of light with the dark piano curves and the hot highlights on the flute and arms. I like the composition/framing with the piano and off-center performer placement and would only pan down ever so slightly to keep from cropping off the toes of her shoes. I'm planning on picking up a ZS7 or ZS10 myself based on the nice quality video I've seen from them.

Thanks for sharing your work.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: jnorman34 on March 16, 2011, 11:03:39 AM
gut bucket - thank you for the nice comments.  i am finding that the often harsh lighting at stage events is very problematic for my amateur video skills...
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: guysonic on March 19, 2011, 02:17:46 AM
Video made in bad lighting might be rescued using some of those special effects features, like making a film look to be from the early 1900's, or morphed to be colored in softened pastel colored images.   Some of new still-video cameras like the DMC-FZ100 www.sonicstudios.com/videomic.htm (http://www.sonicstudios.com/videomic.htm) and newest GH2 seem to have many such effects available while recording. 

While I personally have not used in-camera video special effects. most are wise to consider real time modification with camera effects as risky if not first making some tests.  Still, maybe worth taking a chance if not intending to spend time editing a video of low importance, but might be made more viewable with effects to look immediately nicer 'right-out-of-the-camera.'
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: jnorman34 on March 25, 2011, 11:42:48 AM
for the past couple of years, i have been running a 4-mic array since i often find myself in situations where i do not know in advance where i will be able to set up my mics, nor what a given venue sounds like in terms of natural ambience.  i use an ORTF pair of KM140s flanked on either side by a pair of DPA 4090s, all mounted on a single bar (omnis are spaced about 60cm)>lexicon U42s>thinkpad t410 (i7) runnning reaper.   that way, during post, i can select just the ORTF pair if i had to set up further back than i wished or if the hall was more ambient than i expected, or i can use just the pair of omnis if i have to set up closer than i liked, or if the hall had little natural reverb, or i can use a blend of the two pairs to control how much ambience, width or depth is in the final mix.

now someone over at gearslutz has named this setup the "boojum/jnorman array" (boojum (sandy noyes) is a friend of mine up in astoria, with whom i discussed this approach and who also uses a similar setup in his work).  there is a fun discussion of the approach here:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/592570-first-try-w-boojum-jnorman-array-2-pairs-1-bar.html

have any of you guys tried similar kinds of setups, and what have your experiences been?  if you are using 4 mics, what is the rest of your signal chain - preamps, power supplies, recorder, etc.  thanks.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: allan on March 25, 2011, 03:47:01 PM
we ran 6 mics the other night for the local symphony, a pair of Audix somethings on stage far left and right, a pair of Rode NT5 XY on a short stand directly in front of the conductor, and a pair of KM184 DFC of the camera pit in the balcony. Ran everything to a digi 003 console + laptop. Sounded pretty good while monitoring. Anyone else running XY at the conductor?
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: notlance on March 25, 2011, 04:34:20 PM
For just about the same reasons you stated (new acoustic, new artists, no time to set up, no chance to move the mics during the performance, not sure how much "room" the artist wants in the recording) I often use a Double MS setup.  Like the "regular" MS, the DMS has a side facing figure-8 for the Side signal, but the Mid signal consists of a Front and Back cardioid mic.  So by recording three channels, Front, Back, and Side, you can have a front pair of virtual mics with any pattern separated by any angle.  It is also possible to derive 5 channels of surround information from these three mics.

For a recording mixed to two channels, in simple terms the image width is adjusted by the Mid/Side balance, and the ambiance is adjusted by the Front/Back balance.  When I use the DMS I tend to place it a bit closer to the performers than I would a MS or ORTF rig because the Back mic allows me to add lots of reverberation if I want.  Like I tell my clients, it's easy to add chaos, but removing it is difficult.  Since DMS is coincident, there is never any phase issues when mixing the signals.

As for my specific rig, I most often use a Sennheiser MKH-800 for the Side mic, and a Sennheiser MKH-800 Twin for the Front and Back channels.  Thus with 2 mics I can get the three channels I need, which makes for a compact setup for the live concerts often record, and the Sennheisers are very fine mics.  I've used other mics in a DMS configuration with fine results also.  I use DMS so much I've built a 3 channel snake, which it's just a 7 conductor mic cable with the appropriate connectors on each end.  This really speeds up and cleans up my setup.  My recorder is a Sound Devices 788T, and I use its internal pre-amps which I have found to be more than adequate.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: jnorman34 on March 25, 2011, 07:32:40 PM
not - i like your signal chain :-)
there are a few folks over at GS remote forum that run double MS, and similar hybrid setups like double ORTF (one facing forward and on backward).  do you ever visit the remote forum?
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Carrera2 on March 26, 2011, 02:52:16 PM
Somewhat related, I played in a concerto for two flutes and ran two rigs recently. I ran AKG 481s > 744T in ORTF above and behind the conductor and then ran a second rig clamped to an arm that was a Sennheiser ME66 (short shotgun) with an AKG 394 (blue line bi-directional) run in MS (>V3>Sony M10) pointed at the soloists. You can spot the mics in the video at http://www.vimeo.com/21141879 (the sound in the video clip is just from the little Flip my wife used, and yes, I'm the old guy with white hair). All that said, I haven't had much time to work on the audio, but as expected, the recordings are vastly different, but bring an opportunity to mix some interestingly different "perspectives." After tax season clears up and I have a little time to mess with the audio I'll post a sample or two.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: DigiGal on March 28, 2011, 01:01:41 AM

Somewhat related, I played in a concerto for two flutes and ran two rigs recently. I ran AKG 481s > 744T in ORTF above and behind the conductor and then ran a second rig clamped to an arm that was a Sennheiser ME66 (short shotgun) with an AKG 394 (blue line bi-directional) run in MS (>V3>Sony M10) pointed at the soloists. You can spot the mics in the video at http://www.vimeo.com/21141879 (the sound in the video clip is just from the little Flip by wife used, and yes, I'm the old guy with white hair). All that said, I haven't had much time to work on the audio, but as expected, the recordings are vastly different, but bring an opportunity to mix some interestingly different "perspectives." After tax season clears up and I have a little time to mess with the audio I'll post a sample or two.

Thanks for the link, at first glance I thought it was Steve Jobs playing flute.  ;)

Not classical but similarly, I just ran a Sennheiser ME66 for a mid using the figure 8 of my Shure VP88 for the side at Radio City Music Hall for Furthur.  I'm looking to pick up a CK94 for my AKG 391's, but haven't really seen anyone else using them.  How do you like the CK94?  The availability of the figure 8 caps from AKG for these was one of my reasons for getting the 391's.

(http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b419/DigiGal_taper/Furthur%20Radio%20City/d9f0b8b5.jpg)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on March 29, 2011, 11:55:57 AM
now someone over at gearslutz has named this setup the "boojum/jnorman array" (boojum (sandy noyes) is a friend of mine up in astoria, with whom i discussed this approach and who also uses a similar setup in his work).  there is a fun discussion of the approach here:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/592570-first-try-w-boojum-jnorman-array-2-pairs-1-bar.html

have any of you guys tried similar kinds of setups, and what have your experiences been?  if you are using 4 mics, what is the rest of your signal chain - preamps, power supplies, recorder, etc.  thanks.

Hi John, I also like the flexibility of spaced omnis plus center directional mics and have talked a good bit about it with Sandy.  I just got back from Springfest last night (lots of strings, though non classical except for a very talented fellow playing solo Bach violin pieces around a campfire) and while there I realized that the new array I rigged to bring there essentially takes that idea to something of a logical geometric extreme. I had the Tetramic at the center (coincident directional patterns) with four omnis on telescopic outriggers pointing left/right and front/back.  Three of those were 4060s forming a good sized Decca tree with a 2 meter base and the fourth was a single Countryman B3 off the back of the tree acting as a single spaced surround channel (Decca surround diamond?)

I recorded the Tetramic via it’s own phantom power adapters directly into the DR-680 to take advantage of its channel ganging feature allowing me to keep those four input gains matched at all times plus a SBD feed into channels 5&6.  I ran the four spaced omni outriggers into an Oade CM R-44 via Niant PFA phantom power adaptors.  I only used the preamp sections of the recorders themselves. The two recorders were not synced and I have that work to do if I want to combine tracks.  I considered bringing the V3, which with a digital output would have let me run 8 synced channels on the DR-680, but wanted to keep things portable and less complex since it was my virgin run with the 680.  Including the SBD, I ended up recording 10 channels, with 8 of those from mics flown on one lightweight stand.  I tech-flexed the cabling to the Tetramic and omnis into a single snake and arranged things so I only needed to plug in the SBD feed for setup. It runs off two 9V ‘DVD-style’ lithium batteries for 15+ hrs of record time and everything worked out very well.

I haven't been over to GS in a while so I'll have to poke my head in again over there.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on March 29, 2011, 12:07:43 PM
That's one fine DMS rig, notlance.Thanks to everyone for sharing interesting rigs and gigs and keeping this thread alive. 

we ran 6 mics the other night for the local symphony, a pair of Audix somethings on stage far left and right, a pair of Rode NT5 XY on a short stand directly in front of the conductor, and a pair of KM184 DFC of the camera pit in the balcony. Ran everything to a digi 003 console + laptop. Sounded pretty good while monitoring. Anyone else running XY at the conductor?

Curious to hear how you end up mixing the 3 pairs if you are involved in that portion of your production.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: RichT on March 29, 2011, 12:44:03 PM
I usually record chamber music and more experimental stuff.

Depending on the gig (and how much kit I want to/can carry)  I'll run:
C480 / CK62 A-B omni pair and/or
C480 / CK61 Coincident cardioid XY pair (I usually prefer this to ORTF, gets a more solid centre) CK63 in bad rooms
on a K&M fixed 4 point bar. The older AKG clips are higher than the new ones so you can use them quite easily to get 2 heights for XY or ORTF

+ spot mics on players (mainly AKG C480/460/blue line)

Most of the time the best result's just from the stereo pair, the rest is mainly for alternatives and redundancy

They're going to go into a Sonosax SX-M32 (yet to have an outing)- used to be a SX-M2
and an Edirol R-44 as a recorder

If I'm using more than 4 channels it'll go into an RME Multiface / Quadmic and laptop (with R-44 as backup)

I've also recently got a CK94 capsule so can start playing with some M/S (and double M/S)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: notlance on March 29, 2011, 03:29:37 PM

Hi John, I also like the flexibility of spaced omnis plus center directional mics and have talked a good bit about it with Sandy.

Just the opposite, I will sometimes run spaced cardioids with an omni center mic, and by spaced I mean in a NOS configuration.  Even at 30 cm spacing, I sometimes hear a "hole-in-the-middle" that the center omni fills in nicely.  The omni also adds some low-end weight to the recording that often the spaced cards do not provide.  Usually I end up mixing in the center omni at about -5 to -8 dB relative to the LR cards.  Just last night (28 March) I recorded a small (55 piece) symphony orchestra with two Milab DC-196 in NOS with a center Sennheiser MKH-8020.  I ended up mixing in the omni at about -6 dB which stabilized the location of the woodwind solos and added some oomph to the bass drum, although the Milab mics do have a pretty good low end.  The only time I will use this NOS + omni configuration is if I have a good idea where to place the mics, otherwise I'll use DMS or MS.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on March 29, 2011, 04:21:33 PM
Yeah, most if it is simply learning what works and expanding on to that for flexibility/redundancy.  For instance, I'd previously arrived at a known good starting point of ~1 meter spacing for a stereo pair of spaced omnis at this venue/mic-position years ago simply by adjusting things extensively while monitoring.  This time I wanted to try a wider spacing in combination with the additional channels I'm running and purposefully decided on a 2 meter spacing for the L/R omni pair with a much shorter spacing to the Center mic.  I did that partially from consulting Micheal Williams' MMAD charts for good 'critical-linking' of the recording segments between the three front mics (Left-Center playing nice with Center-Right) for my recording angle when played back as 3 or 5 channel material, but I also chose that configuration because I can can listen to just the Left and Center omnis as a stereo pair (or the Center & Right omnis).  Those two mics are then at my known 1 meter spacing, with only a slight angular mis-alignment due to the center mic being ~7" forward of the Left one.

I haven't had a chance to listen extensively yet, but when I got home last night I did a quick multi-channel playback listen (no channel mixing) of just the omnis and played around with levels. Like your experience, I often end up using somewhat less of the center channel in support of the L/R pair to basically firm up the middle, but in this case with the additional base spacing and perhaps the Williams 'critical linking' array design, the entire front stage sounded solid and was best with all three front channels at the same playback gain. 
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on May 30, 2011, 10:51:34 PM
If any of you do Netflix, 'Glass: A Portrait of Philip in Twelve Parts' is available via instant streaming until this Wednesday.  Excellent documentory.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: ilduclo on May 31, 2011, 08:31:22 AM
and, Frith and Glennie--Touch the Sound!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: DigiGal on May 31, 2011, 01:30:23 PM
Also "Genius Within: Glenn Gould"
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on May 31, 2011, 02:37:23 PM
^^
All good ones!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: twatts (pants are so over-rated...) on June 08, 2011, 03:51:32 PM
Looking for someone to help me identify a certain tune:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx-Hy3eDZ30

Terry


FIGURED IT OUT:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwwX8sPRyM0
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on June 30, 2011, 08:28:27 PM
Don't think this video interview has been posted yet- Tony Faulkner talks about orchestral recording with George Shilling
http://www.recordproduction.com/tony-faulkner.htm (http://www.recordproduction.com/tony-faulkner.htm)

The most relevant part is the second half, interesting to hear that he has the same problem with audience being ~8dB louder than the strings, talk of mics, techniques, etc.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: notlance on July 01, 2011, 12:43:02 PM
I found the Tony Faulkner interview interesting since I have followed a very similar path in recording as he, with the big exception being he is famous and I'm nobody.  While listening to the interview I kept smiling and thinking to myself "yes, yes".  He appears to be a really nice guy and not pretentious at all.  Thanks for the link.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: John Willett on July 02, 2011, 06:48:33 AM
I found the Tony Faulkner interview interesting since I have followed a very similar path in recording as he, with the big exception being he is famous and I'm nobody.  While listening to the interview I kept smiling and thinking to myself "yes, yes".  He appears to be a really nice guy and not pretentious at all.  Thanks for the link.

Yes, recorded in Tony's kitchen, I recognise it well.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: rastasean on July 03, 2011, 11:55:49 AM
Don't think this video interview has been posted yet- Tony Faulkner talks about orchestral recording with George Shilling
http://www.recordproduction.com/tony-faulkner.htm (http://www.recordproduction.com/tony-faulkner.htm)

The most relevant part is the second half, interesting to hear that he has the same problem with audience being ~8dB louder than the strings, talk of mics, techniques, etc.

I liked this a lot but I don't understand why the sound quality of the video isn't good. couple minutes, some humming noise would start and shutoff. You figure they would go the extra mile to make the sound good for recording an interview.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: John Willett on July 04, 2011, 11:47:23 AM
Don't think this video interview has been posted yet- Tony Faulkner talks about orchestral recording with George Shilling
http://www.recordproduction.com/tony-faulkner.htm (http://www.recordproduction.com/tony-faulkner.htm)

The most relevant part is the second half, interesting to hear that he has the same problem with audience being ~8dB louder than the strings, talk of mics, techniques, etc.

I liked this a lot but I don't understand why the sound quality of the video isn't good. couple minutes, some humming noise would start and shutoff. You figure they would go the extra mile to make the sound good for recording an interview.

Probably the fridge or something - it was recorded in the kitchen of Tony's house.

I guess it was just a static camera with the on-board mic. only.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: jnorman34 on July 06, 2011, 08:27:58 PM
oye - here is a recent effort for your critique and comments.  always trying to find ways to improve this sort of stuff.  used to be only audio work, but now everybody wants video too.  the performance was with alive audience and a loud HVAC which gave me fits during post.

audio was ORTF KM140s and AB DPA 4090s > Lexicon U42s > Thinkpad T410 i7 running Reaper.  video was captured with panasonic ZS7 AVCHD at 720p.  syncing was done with adobe premiere and output as mp4 at 720p.

Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAi6x8G_0tw
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on September 20, 2011, 07:04:35 PM
'Tis the season to catch the classical craft.

How 'bout a symphonic flash mob revelatory railstation Ravel Bolero blare-o blowout & bow-out?
http://www.flixxy.com/symphony-flash-mob-copenhagen-central-station.htm#.TnMAB9ivuTI.email (http://www.flixxy.com/symphony-flash-mob-copenhagen-central-station.htm#.TnMAB9ivuTI.email)
Ingenious staging particularly appropriate for the piece I think.


oye - here is a recent effort for your critique and comments. 
Nice work, no warts I see or hear.  I enjoyed this when you posted a couple months back & didn't mean to neglect to comment. 

Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: noahbickart on September 22, 2011, 08:24:57 PM
I'm looking forward to my Carnegie Hall Piano virtuosos series. I've got center balcony first row all year (and a low pro schoeps m-s rig on the way...)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: dean on September 23, 2011, 05:19:58 PM
^ :clapping:   Please notify us of your results.   :)  What's the lineup?
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: jnorman34 on September 24, 2011, 04:17:35 AM
hiya gutb - thanks.  fun stuff.

just did some work at octoberfest in mt angel, oregon.  one of the wierder performances was an alpenhorn/accordian/cow bells trio - very entertaining.  here is a link to harp, flute, clarinet trio doing some norwegian folk songs by grieg.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1aqMte33pQ&feature=related
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: noahbickart on October 03, 2011, 09:49:33 AM
^ :clapping:   Please notify us of your results.   :)  What's the lineup?

http://www.carnegiehall.org/Series.aspx?id=4294973651

I'll likely have an extra seat for some of these, and there are great slats in the balcony for the positioning of  >:D microphones.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on October 03, 2011, 10:37:18 AM
alpenhorn/accordian/cow bells trio - very entertaining.  here is a link to harp, flute, clarinet trio doing some norwegian folk songs by grieg.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1aqMte33pQ&feature=related

Interesting instrumentation is cool.  I bet that alpenhorn was something else. I was once at a Tibetian monistary when a large religous festival was underway and 4 or 6 monks were playing those huge Himalayan equivalent horns (plus bells, gongs, and the rest). I wish I had made a recording of that!

Love to make it to Carnegie someday, though in my case it will certainly be as audience member.  I'll just keep recording, recording, recording 'till I get there.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: dean on October 03, 2011, 02:25:48 PM
^ :clapping:   Please notify us of your results.   :)  What's the lineup?

http://www.carnegiehall.org/Series.aspx?id=4294973651

I'll likely have an extra seat for some of these, and there are great slats in the balcony for the positioning of  >:D microphones.

Jealous!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on October 03, 2011, 03:01:31 PM
Jealous!

X2
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: noahbickart on October 06, 2011, 11:48:19 PM
Check back here, and I'll share if all goes well...
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: DigiGal on November 02, 2011, 11:19:47 PM
Bumping the thread with a community classical chamber orchestra recording I made last weekend.  Recorded Mid/Side using AKG 391 (mid) & AKG 394 (side) with Rycote's back-to-clips on a Rycote INV 7 shockmount.

New link, old link was broken with the addition of flac16 identifier.

http://www.archive.org/details/aco2011-10-28.akg391.akg394.digigal.flac16


** 16-bit/44.1 Khz **
Wide Stereo Ambience Version

01. Joyeuse Marche....................................Emmanuel Chabrier

02. John Henry...................................................Aaron Copland

03. Hungarian Dances No. 5 & No. 6.............Johannes Brahms

04. Music for Shea Stadium..............Arr. by Arthur Frackenpohl
      "for brass & percussion"
      Opening Medley
      New York Medley
      George Cohan Medley
      America the Beautiful
      The Stars and Stripes Forever

05. Symphony No. 3 in E flat -Rhenish-.........Robert Schumann
      Movement No. 1, Lebhaft
      Movement No. 4, Feierlich
      Movement No. 5, Lebhaft
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: bobbygeeWOW on November 21, 2011, 10:44:16 AM
Get a load of my dentist:

http://thomasyu.ca/

He's played all the great symphony halls in the world including Carnegie :)



Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on November 21, 2011, 05:50:33 PM
Quote
Get a load of my dentist:

Alternate chops.

Unlikely, but is he an woodsman or pig farmer as well?
Wait, maybe me he dabbles in the martial arts!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: bobbygeeWOW on November 21, 2011, 06:13:48 PM
Unlike myself I would doubt that he's involved in those sorts of more ... er, primal undertakings Lee :)

Possibly martial arts, but I will testify that he's got a good touch when wielding sharp objects down my hatch ...
Not many people study world class piano on the side while running at the top their class in dentistry school!

Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on November 22, 2011, 01:18:46 AM
Chops is chops, vont diverses.  ;)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on January 21, 2012, 04:14:57 PM
video link-
http://www.rodetv.com/iwal/interview-with-a-legend-tony-faulkner/ (http://www.rodetv.com/iwal/interview-with-a-legend-tony-faulkner/)

^^
Another outstanding Tony Faulkner interview which Hynocracy posted elsewhere earlier today. (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=152926.msg1936763#msg1936763)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Massive Dynamic on September 10, 2012, 07:53:17 PM
Additionally, there is money to be made.  Students generally are required to record their recitals.  Oftentimes the performance program utilizes tech program students to do the recording, but there's not always enough, or any, recording students to do the actual work.  Additionally, it's typically required that the students pay for the recording work.  Soooo, opportunity.

Hang a flyer advertizing your skillz at the local college/univ that has music performance program.  I've done a bunch of opera recital recording (typically running blumlein on stage/lip at about 6'^).  I charge a $100 flat rate for record, post production, track and transfer, and provide a wav and flac disc to the student.  Generally rave reviews, of the likes of "awesome, and certainly better than the student recordist who f'd up my spring recital from last year, and $50 less, to boot!!!"  And once you get one good student, they're good at recommending you to others.  Last spring I had to turn some folks away because I'd already be booked on a particular night. 

Heard some amazing and inspiring work doing this.  Also suffered through some sheer horror.  Preponderance has been very good, though, and the money's been a nice little gear purchase funding source!!  I'd have been happy to do it for free, actually, but the students made it clear that, at least at the two programs for which I've worked in Minneapolis, they're required to pay.

Another benefit is you can cozy up to the accompanists who can (a) refer you to other students, (b) turn you on to other events of interest, and (c) blow your mind at how good they are.

My days of rock recording are getting fewer and further between. There is a state university with a well-respected music department blocks from my house, and I am wondering about approaching someone at the university. Before doing so, I am wondering if my gear is going to be sufficient. Most contributors to this thread are using 4 channels - I have two recorders, but don't really want to spend my evenings doing post, my least favorite thing. That may also be a reason not to even contemplate this endeavor. Can acceptable results be had with a nice pair of cardioids and a 2-channel recorder? Should I keep my LSD2 instead of selling?
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on September 10, 2012, 08:32:46 PM
Sure, a simple stereo pair of cards in ORTF can be just the ticket.  If you want to keep the LSD2 you'll be far more likely to find good situations to be able to run it in Blumlein than most rock situations.  Simple two channel 'purist' techniques have a better chance of working really well in decent rooms designed for or at least somewhat adapted to making music without PA reinforcement.

Seems to me colleges/universities generally fall in two categories: they either have mediocre gear and no one to really run it competently or serious endowment mics and a recording engineering program.  It's probably easier to get in with the first since the second will be more serious about having recording engineering students recording the music program students.  There are more of the first type anyway.  Dean will be more likely to have better insight to this than I if he's around to reply.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Massive Dynamic on September 10, 2012, 09:50:36 PM
Thanks, Lee. The university is state-funded, but there are many generous alumni. Guess I'll just have to inquire.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: dean on September 11, 2012, 10:17:59 PM
I'd hang onto that LSD2 and run it blumlein on stage about 6'^.  Talk to the students if you can.  I think they're more receptive to what you're selling than the faculty would be, and they're the ones paying.  However, it's a public school, so I think you can hang a flyer or something with no issues.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: ScoobieKW on September 24, 2012, 11:19:16 AM
First time recording a classical choral piece. First session will be rehearsal with performance in a few weeks.

Have cardioid, sub, super, and omni capsules for my Avantone CK-1 (Busman mod) mics.

Thinking card/stereophonic zoom at 7' front row of audience. basically trusting the conductor to mix.

Feedback?
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on September 24, 2012, 12:46:42 PM
Seems appropriate.
Good sounding room?

Irrespective of pattern, which of those capsules has the sweetest sound to your ears?  If the room is good I'd go with whatever that is in the appropriate Zoom config.  I'd probably lean toward the subcardioids, which should work well from there if the room is nice.  I think choral pieces typically benefit from the wide, lush sound of spaced configs verses sharper imaging of closer spaced configs which rely more on mic directivity.  Spaced omnis on the edge of the stage could work really well for this too, and they don't necessarily need to be up high.  Position of the group forward or back on the stage can make a significant difference in the direct/reverb ratio at the front row.  A lot depends on the quality and quantity of the room reverberence, how quickly the direct sound drops off into that with distance from the group, and of course the audience's behavior!  One big difference with recording acoustic material in nice halls as opposed to amplified music in bars and clubs is that the room sound is more likely to be a big asset to the recording, rather than just a problem to work around.  Getting best direct/room balance is the primary key to nailing it.

The conductor is the live-mix soundguy!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: ScoobieKW on September 24, 2012, 01:17:43 PM
Seems appropriate.
Good sounding room?

Irrespective of pattern, which of those capsules has the sweetest sound to your ears?  If the room is good I'd go with whatever that is in the appropriate Zoom config.  I'd probably lean toward the subcardioids, which should work well from there if the room is nice.  I think choral pieces typically benefit from the wide, lush sound of spaced configs verses sharper imaging of closer spaced configs which rely more on mic directivity.  Spaced omnis on the edge of the stage could work really well for this too, and they don't necessarily need to be up high.  Position of the group forward or back on the stage can make a significant difference in the direct/reverb ratio at the front row.  A lot depends on the quality and quantity of the room reverberence, how quickly the direct sound drops off into that with distance from the group, and of course the audience's behavior!  One big difference with recording acoustic material in nice halls as opposed to amplified music in bars and clubs is that the room sound is more likely to be a big asset to the recording, rather than just a problem to work around.  Getting best direct/room balance is the primary key to nailing it.

The conductor is the live-mix soundguy!


No idea on the sound of the room, rehearsal is in a room at a church, performance space TBD.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on September 24, 2012, 02:59:58 PM
My post above comes from the perspective of a performance hall or chuch space accoustic.  As you'd suspect, cardioids may be a better choice in a smaller, less than great room.. depending.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on September 24, 2012, 03:23:25 PM
Hope springs eternal.

I was pleased to find positive potential for improved quality of future concert goers recently- at a couple free admission pre-season concerts, two groups of young children in the front row were quieter, more attentive and better behaved than their mothers and most of the adults and seniors seated behind and around them.  The obviously well informed kids even refrained from clapping between movements, and looked to their mothers with unapproving expressions when others in the audience did not, perhaps hoping the moms would scold the inattentiveness of the less mindful adults!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: DigiGal on September 24, 2012, 04:03:03 PM
Hope springs eternal.

I was pleased to find positive potential for improved quality of future concert goers recently- at a couple free admission pre-season concerts, two groups of young children in the front row were quieter, more attentive and better behaved than their mothers and most of the adults and seniors seated behind and around them.  The obviously well informed kids even refrained from clapping between movements, and looked to their mothers with unapproving expressions when others in the audience did not, perhaps hoping the moms would scold the inattentiveness of the less mindful adults!

 :clapping:
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: ilduclo on September 24, 2012, 06:05:31 PM
For classical in a good hall, I don't think good omnis can be beat.

Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: DSatz on September 25, 2012, 08:28:35 AM
When I started out recording, omni and cardioid were pretty much the main choices (e.g. AKG C 451--do you want a CK 1 or a CK 2 with that? Neumann fet 80 series--do you want the KM 83 or the KM 84?). It was as if they were a Platonic dichotomy that defined the whole universe. I only learned that first-order patterns are actually a continuum or spectrum a while later. But I would still have to agree with "ilduclo" (above) that for beauty, spaciousness and just plain listening pleasure, omni was the pattern of choice as long as it wasn't "too much of a good thing."

I've also had my flings with supercardioid and figure-8 microphones--actually, supercardioids and I had a long, serious relationship.

In the past decade or so, after years of thinking that this wasn't an alternative worth taking seriously, I've acquired good single-diaphragm capsules with patterns between omni and cardioid. They are predominantly pressure transducers, with just some controlled amount of pressure gradient sensitivity mixed in. So they still have (to a corresponding degree) most of the roundness, smoothness and bass extension of good omnis, but they also let me put both capsules on a single mounting bar on a single, central stand or hanging fixture and get a stable (if not overly detailed) stereo image.

Often in life when you try to fulfill two opposing sets of criteria, you end up with disappointment all around. To my surprise this has not been this case with these capsules. The first time I used wide cardioids, the situation must have been exactly right because I got one of my best recordings in decades (a small ensemble at one end of a huge private library). I don't usually love my own recordings, and I am constantly asking myself why I do this at all, I am so frustrated. But in this instance the beauty and the clarity--both together and not fighting one another--was exactly what I want from a recording.

There are still times now when I record with omnis--mostly small ensembles in relatively dry but still well-balanced halls, where I can get the main pair in fairly close to the musicians. But I find that these in-between capsule types have become my "go-to" capsules, and I'm having more fun recording now than I was having for a number of years.

--best regards
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: kindms on October 01, 2012, 03:13:53 PM
Last week I was out working the all natural lump charcoal on the grill (ribeyes over wood yum)

anyway I bring the food up to the living room and the other half has a shit eating grin on her face. I take a look at the tv and realize why

Just happened on Opening night at lincoln center being broadcast live on PBS channel 13. I immediately wondered if any of you guys were recording :)

Was a great treat. Itzahk Perlman did several pieces (he makes it look soo friggin easy) and they finished with the Pines Of Rome.

I wish they would have more stuff like this on TV etc.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: ScoobieKW on October 01, 2012, 03:54:57 PM
So the rehearsal recording is done. The composer, Richard Peaslee, is very happy with my result, I ended up using subcardioid capsules AB. The hall was live with loud folding chairs, and the subs worked well. Will post a sample when/if I get permission.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: mfrench on November 28, 2012, 11:22:27 AM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/546836_10151118860035658_824967509_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: bobbygeeWOW on November 28, 2012, 11:47:34 AM
Wow. That real?
Reminds me of the Jimi Hendrix rock of my youth.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: mfrench on November 28, 2012, 05:11:03 PM
It supposedly an island off of Papua, New Guinea.
I just grabbed the link to the image, and am not sure what the exact lineage is.  I'm also easily fooled by photoshop jobs, so,....
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on November 28, 2012, 05:21:33 PM
Impressive.  Especially so if not 'shopped.   Wondering if native New Guineans recognize the western instrument likeness?  There are a few keys south of here that look something like gamelan bells/gongs or whatever they are called.  Pretty simple likeness, just the rounded shape with a dome-like shape in the center.  When I pointed the it out, everyone asked, what's a gamelan?
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: bobbygeeWOW on November 28, 2012, 05:54:11 PM
We all have our own cultural references Lee :)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Ultfris101 on January 03, 2013, 05:22:50 PM
In the next 2-3 weeks I'll have an opportunity to record a classical ensemble, specifically this group from the Richmond Classical Revolution Chapter (http://classicalrevolutionrva.com/). I've gotten comfortable with the basics of recording amplified rock shows but not yet done anything like this. I'm going to go to one of their "Jam Sessions" next week at a somewhat noisy bar and experiment a little and then try to use that experience to do a more serious recording at an event on 1/20.

I plan to take a crash course by reading through this whole thread but also wanted to see what opinions folks have. Given the short time frame, I more or less need to start with the gear I have in my sig. I have two recorders + a few different mics. I'm still working on proper microdot > miniplug adaptation so the 4061s may or may not be an option.

I was thinking I'd run at least one PIP/9v rig (CA-14 omni > CA-9200+gain  > m10) and then one of the following:

Do you think I'll have any success at all with this gear to make it worth it or should I try to pick up some more sensitive mics like the SP-TFB-2's or something similar for relatively low $$'s and quick turnaround?

As for positioning, I don't know what the musician config will be, but should I try to have the musicians circle/semi-circle the mics? or spread the omni's and put them out in front of the whole group? Up high on a stand or hanging? down Low?

Thanks for any insight and pointers you have to get started. I'll do some reading and probably come back with more questions.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: page on January 03, 2013, 05:42:09 PM
Do you think I'll have any success at all with this gear to make it worth it or should I try to pick up some more sensitive mics like the SP-TFB-2's or something similar for relatively low $$'s and quick turnaround?

do you want to use my DPA 4015c set (subcards)? I use them when I record non-amplified jazz stuff around town.

My tips:

1) What instruments? Brass is loud, strings not nearly as much.
2) Where are you? Stage lip is of course louder than in the room, but it's surprising by how much.
3) Dynamics; peaking at -6db isn't the goal. Not clipping is the goal. Where as amplified shows might have a swing of 12db peaks, I see double (or more) that for non-amplified stuff. I'll run 90% of a show peaking at -15 only to run up to -4 for a handful of seconds a couple times a set. Makes 24bit recording a necessity. Side note; I've learned to use a compressor in post-work as a result.
4) Beware semi-coincident spacing when you're working with a stereo image that is this wide (and no duplicate on the other side). I've found where I want to do amplified shows at 30cm/110 degrees out doors, I want to condense that to almost 20cm/90 degrees when doing non-stack amped shows.
5) Setup is 90% situation, and I've found that I have to setup about 5-10 minutes before they start (everyone climbs on stage, I throw my stuff up, they start soon after) which is rather different than amplified rock gigs.
6) Study the Williams curves, you're headed for the realm of non-standard configs even if they use the same principle. "Right tool for the right job" sort of thing.

are you looking at the balliceaux gig or the one at the camel?
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Ultfris101 on January 03, 2013, 06:20:20 PM
Do you think I'll have any success at all with this gear to make it worth it or should I try to pick up some more sensitive mics like the SP-TFB-2's or something similar for relatively low $$'s and quick turnaround?

do you want to use my DPA 4015c set (subcards)? I use them when I record non-amplified jazz stuff around town.

Quite possibly. Thank you for offering. I'll think about it. I would like to get my own mics so I can be prepared for this whenever but this might be a good way to go in the short run. I certainly won't be forking out $$ for DPAs any time soon.

My tips:

1) What instruments? Brass is loud, strings not nearly as much.
2) Where are you? Stage lip is of course louder than in the room, but it's surprising by how much.
3) Dynamics; peaking at -6db isn't the goal. Not clipping is the goal. Where as amplified shows might have a swing of 12db peaks, I see double (or more) that for non-amplified stuff. I'll run 90% of a show peaking at -15 only to run up to -4 for a handful of seconds a couple times a set. Makes 24bit recording a necessity. Side note; I've learned to use a compressor in post-work as a result.
4) Beware semi-coincident spacing when you're working with a stereo image that is this wide (and no duplicate on the other side). I've found where I want to do amplified shows at 30cm/110 degrees out doors, I want to condense that to almost 20cm/90 degrees when doing non-stack amped shows.
5) Setup is 90% situation, and I've found that I have to setup about 5-10 minutes before they start (everyone climbs on stage, I throw my stuff up, they start soon after) which is rather different than amplified rock gigs.
6) Study the Williams curves, you're headed for the realm of non-standard configs even if they use the same principle. "Right tool for the right job" sort of thing.

are you looking at the balliceaux gig or the one at the camel?

Great tips, thank you. Exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for. I'm exchanging emails to get info on number of musicians and instruments. I expect I'll record stage lip if not actually in the middle of the group in some fashion. I might try both since I plan to run two rigs and see what works best.

I'm planning to go to both. The Camel on 1/9 will be to mess around. I know it'll be a less than optimal place to record something quiet with the bar and talkers  but it'll be a chance to meet the folks and try some stuff out. They'll be sight reading so it's going to be more of a rehearsal than a performance. They can see what I need to do and i can get an idea of what they will do.

Ellen from the group said that won't be worth recording but I'll do it anyway for the practice. She said the gig at Balliceaux on 1/20 is more suitable to record and they were actually thinking about recording and archiving their performances recently but don't have the equipment so it's a happy coincidence I reached out.

Thanks again. Now off to study the Williams curves.

Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: bluewingolive on January 03, 2013, 08:51:56 PM

3) Dynamics; peaking at -6db isn't the goal. Not clipping is the goal. Where as amplified shows might have a swing of 12db peaks, I see double (or more) that for non-amplified stuff. I'll run 90% of a show peaking at -15 only to run up to -4 for a handful of seconds a couple times a set. Makes 24bit recording a necessity. Side note; I've learned to use a compressor in post-work as a result.
Can you give some more detail about your compression strategy in this case?  Threshold, ratio, attack, etc.  I've run into this situation and I've fiddled with compression to get the right dynamic....I've found I really have to set the threshold pretty low, dB wise to handle that wide range like you mention above.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on January 03, 2013, 11:05:07 PM
Hey, internet came back up.. and Page answered most everything.

Parallel compression works well to bring up the low level passages and details of acoustic recordings in a natural sounding way.  I find it much easier to apply than top-down compression while retaining transparency.

Typed earlier..
About all I can say for sure is that audience applause is likely to be the loudest source.  Horns might be louder if close. As a general starting point, set gain to where your own loud clapping near the mics is just at or under peak and fine-tune from there if necessary.

The mics you have should work well.  If the bigness of 'big mics' is not a problem, run the TLs.  They'll be great for this and give you the possibility of different configurations depending on the room and crowd situation.  Plus they are very transparent and will sound great on these acoustic instruments.  They will also impress the musicians and gain you some respect, warranted or not!  They look 'serious'.

Diaphragm size has nothing to do with sensitivity, a microphone with a large diameter capsule may or may not be more sensitive than a small diaphragm mic, but as a class, large diaphragm mics are quieter than small diaphragm mics in general.  Classical music recorded up close is more dynamic than amplified music, and often has very quiet passages that hover around the noise floor of the room, so your concern is not unfounded.  However, mic-self noise of any of your mics isn't likely to be a problem recording in that kind of venue.  No problem on that account with your AKGs, but personally I'd still choose the ADKs.

Skip the TFB-2s.  They are quite good relatively inexpensive omnis for less than loud sources, but you have plenty of omnis already with the CA omnis, DPA omnis, and TLs.. plus the TFB-2 can be prone to picking up electrical interference in the cable (at least the pair I have, made in ~2005 are).  The gain of your preamps is clean enough to use any of your mics.

As for microphone configuration, a lot depends on the room.  Omnis are great and very natural sounding on unamplified acoustic instruments especially, but if the room sounds like a concrete bunker with a cocktail party in it then omnis may not be the best choice.  The musicians will probably be arranged in something of a semi-circle and the open side is often an obvious and good place to put the mics.  If the ambience sounds good from there then spaced or baffled omnis would be a great.  In a good room, Blumlein can be great if the ensemble is small enough to fit within about a 110-degree angle as seen from the mic position, but that’s accumulating a lot of ‘if’s.  If the room is less than great sounding and the crowd noise is significant, then a more directional configuration like ORTF from the same position would probably be more appropriate.  The ADKs can do any of those well.  Your situation sort of spans two worlds: classical ensemble and bar recording, somewhat of a tough cookie. 

Unless there is a trip or drink spill hazard, I'd just place them on-stage down low, facing upwards somewhat towards the musicians.  That is probably the most practical place anyway.  Standard practice is above pointing down, but unless you are high enough or farther away, violins and violas can sound loud and harsh from above, and you will need to be relatively close to get strong enough direct sound in your situation.  Although professional classical location recordists will scoff, below shooting up under the music stands can work nicely and sound balanced.  Don’t worry to much about music stands being in the way, they always are, but are rarely that much of a problem IME.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: page on January 04, 2013, 12:13:01 AM
Hey, internet came back up.. and Page answered most everything.

(http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh203/OverByteSales/th_SmileyWavingHello.gif)

but yeah, I agree on lots of points.  :coolguy:


3) Dynamics; peaking at -6db isn't the goal. Not clipping is the goal. Where as amplified shows might have a swing of 12db peaks, I see double (or more) that for non-amplified stuff. I'll run 90% of a show peaking at -15 only to run up to -4 for a handful of seconds a couple times a set. Makes 24bit recording a necessity. Side note; I've learned to use a compressor in post-work as a result.
Can you give some more detail about your compression strategy in this case?  Threshold, ratio, attack, etc.  I've run into this situation and I've fiddled with compression to get the right dynamic....I've found I really have to set the threshold pretty low, dB wise to handle that wide range like you mention above.

the strategy I use I shoot for more of an S curve than an L (or checkmark depending on your perspective). I try and get some top down reduction, some bottom up reduction, and then leave the middle largely untouched. To do that, I have to have the same signal with multiple compressors. The first is a parallel compressor (bottom up style) that I wet. Then I'll apply a straight/top compressor with a high/loud trigger and wet that some. The advantage here is I can have different firing speeds and releases; a faster attack/release for the top down one to catch transients and a slower one to prevent pumping on the parallel. I spend a lot of time dickering with them though as it's not particularly easy, but I've generally liked the results over either by itself. One tip there is to keep your wet values low as you're building it and once you've got everything setup, start letting the wet values creep up to a wetter mix. The danger is that the wet value on the first compressor will affect the threshold of the second one, but I've found that beats trying to guess a wet value up front when you don't know what the downstream stuff sounds like yet. ymmv, I think it's more of an art than a science.

Whatever you do, if you're using VSTs, make sure they operate in real time; you don't want to have to render something to see how it sounds, you need to be able to play it in the background and watch the compressor fire so you know what you're hearing and getting for gain reduction. I paid for Reaper because Audacity wouldn't do that.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: bluewingolive on January 04, 2013, 08:30:21 AM
Thank you, sir!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Ultfris101 on January 04, 2013, 09:43:21 AM
Thanks a lot for replies. Sounds like page and I may team up and try a few things next week. I think I will give both the AKGs and TLs a try if I can. I'm familiar with the AKG's in other situations so I can compare and I keep hearing good things about the TLs in but haven't had opportunity to run them yet. (well other than Christmas morning when I recorded gift opening with the kids. Certainly sounded good for that unamplified gig)

And the TLs do look cool  :P
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on January 04, 2013, 10:16:42 AM
Tinybox runtime due to the current draw may be the most meaningful constriant. 

I can confirm from much on-stage use that the TLs SPL limit, distortion, frequency response, and stereo imaging will not be a problem.   AKG is unquestionably one of the top microphone manufacturers, with a far better pedegree than ADK, yet.. OK I'll just come out and say it-  I just prefer the sound of the ADK TLs to the small diaphram AKGs.  I don't often use them as omnis though, moslty as hypercardioids or figure 8s.  They have, to my sow's ear, a smoother/cleaner high frequency response and are more transparent, whatever that means to anyone else.  I don't own AKGs, love the 414s, to which the TLs sound quite similar, yet something about the top end of their SD mics often bugs me. [shrug] No offense meant to the AKGophiles, just my own opinion.

Chalk it up to subjective preference over technical superiority, I guess.

Page's post on compression is spot on.  I'll only add that he is better than I at getting the top down compression sounding suitably transparent.  I usually get better results by just seeking out the biggest transients and manually knocking them down until I get tired of it.. or doing that along with being very subtle on the compression, which would not be enough to constrain those peaks.  Like he mentions, it's something of an art that takes much playing around with to get sounding good if you really listen closely.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: page on January 04, 2013, 11:02:50 AM
I guess my last reply on it (since this isn't a compression thread, but is mildly applicable) is that I will spend upwards of 80% of my editing/mastering time on tweaking compression settings and reviewing the results. Last, similar to traditional mic configs that have been carried over to other areas, I think it's difficult to take traditional methods of compressing and use them on tracks which are not spots but instead contain multiple sounds/instruments. It's certainly not impossible, but I find it rare. Instead of trying to build a specific sound as one would with individual tracks of instruments, I merely try and gently sculpt what I've already got (multiple instruments per channel) as the compressor will fire based on what is distilled as a mathematical algorithm and not necessarily on "hit that guitar but not the three violins sitting behind it" sort of deal. Yeah, if somethings out of the mix and louder, you can sort of guide it around and work on that, but that's serious effort and I don't think the ROI is there... The most advanced thing I've been able to pull off is different attack/release to induce punch to an initial note, but even that's sort of subtle. The only thing I sort of rage on the compressor is the wet value (which I want to average around half).

I guess this is one of those topics for a fabled TS conference.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Ultfris101 on January 04, 2013, 11:04:39 AM
Posts from you and others regarding the TL's are what lead me to jump on them when they showed up in the Yard Sale a few months ago. I wasn't looking for LD mics but after a little research it seemed like these would be good to have in the bag for some variety.

I can hear what people call the AKG "sizzle" at times on my recordings. So far it's only bothered me on one of them (Moon Taxi 11/28) but I think that was also as much due to venue sound, mic config (NOS) all exaggerating it. To my ears when I listen to Schoeps recordings I almost find it missing a little high end, but overall they are really good of course. I might well be running them in a couple years.

For now I'm happy with what I'm getting with AKG's and very glad I stretched to get them when upgrading from mini-mics for open recording. The combination with the tinybox was very lucky gear gathering for a newbie. I'm now tetering on the edge of picking up an R-44 or DR-680 to let me run TLs and 460s simultaneously to get Apples-to-Apples comparisons. Either that or another Tinybox. The tinybox/m10 overall small form factor is quite appealing. Hard to say enough good things about it.

And then the TLs are just so big and heavy in comparison, I can't see myself dragging them to a festival or many crowd challenging venues, not to mention running way up high on a stand, but they seem well suited to recording in this scenario. I think I'll probably run cardioid stage lip and angle as suggested. The stage at the Camel is very small and the rise is only about a foot or so. I anticipate a lot of background noise.

Thanks again for all the input. It's been very helpful and I think I'll be ready to give this a whirl.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Ultfris101 on January 04, 2013, 12:09:10 PM
I get that. I hear a lot of people commenting on DPAs being excellent for capturing reality well, allowing for whatever post processing you might want to do. They are also on my long term consideration list but sure aren't cheap. I'm also intrigued by your mini/efficient/inexpensive philosophy to this industry, Jon. The Tinyhead is very compelling in the same way the Tinybox is in that regard for me, not to mention the microphones which all have miniplug, rca plug, low power options.

This will be the first time really doing anything serious with acoustic instruments so detail will be more of a focus. At the loud rock shows I frequent it's less of a priority since we're already getting everything through a PA most of the time and I'm wearing earplugs for goodness sakes! I basically do the recording so I can hear the show at a reasonable volume. I swear I hear the audio distorting in my ears like they're running hot when I'm not wearing plugs. that can't be good.

I love listening to many kinds of music but in a lot of areas of my life I'm as interested in the infrastructure behind the product as the product itself and then being able to play with it and tweak it to really see what affect everything has is what fires me up. I was a CompSci major and I've been an IT geek for many years professionally and was always drawn more to why the NFS server was hanging or the network was or wasn't performing well than finishing a particular piece of code for a class assignment. These days I'm in Management and the technical challenges that come up just aren't that different than the one we faced last week/month/year so here I am spending money on recording gear figuring out how everything works.

A more stimulating job might keep me out of the Yard Sale! But this is stuff I started to get into in High School but got distracted by computers so it's cool to finally be doing it for real. And helping local artists document their work and get some exposure is very fulfilling.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on January 04, 2013, 12:36:46 PM
I'm a big proponent of making simultaneous recordings into identical gear for less biased listening for differences in mics and setups.

Mic 'flavor' preferences are such a subjective thing that I hesitate to mention my own personal preferences even with those I've owned and are quite familliar with.. plus there are always exceptions.

Due to their weight & size, I pretty much only use the TLs for on stage or stage lip gigs these days.  I just picked up a third a few months back to do three mic on stage setups so admittedly I'm sort of into them currently, but don't mean to be a cheerleader.  I haven't measured or null tested the new mic against the others, but was pleased to find it sonically quite well matched with my original matched pair on the past few recordings.  I have B&K graphs of the matched pair somewhere- if anyone wants to see them I can scan & post 'em here somewhere, probably in the team ADK thread.

Maybe I need to take some time to explore more compressor plugins to find something that works well for me.  The one I use most which is pretty easy to use and good sounding has a relatively simple interface like Jon mentions and usually does a nice job at reasonable settings on full-program material.  However, as a typical top-down comp I tend to use it for jazz/blugrass/americana/rock stuff more than classical.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on January 04, 2013, 12:40:44 PM
Using four baffled mini-omnis (with a 5dB high end bump which I like but others don't - DPA 4060) tonight..
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: F.O.Bean on January 04, 2013, 01:37:19 PM
Chris, what do you think of my mk41s vs. your 461s from NYE ???

And thanks for all of the great reading folks :)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Ultfris101 on January 04, 2013, 02:01:09 PM
Chris, what do you think of my mk41s vs. your 461s from NYE ???

And thanks for all of the great reading folks :)

I've only had chance to sample yours a bit so far and they are quite similar. I like them both a lot. I'm quite curious now to hear Steve's and the CA-14's.  I THINK i hear more high end on the 461s and the Schoeps seems to have fuller mid and lower if I those are the right terms. The mk41s sound very similar to a recording of Big Something I did with 463's. They are good, but what I hear makes me think of a flat wall vs a more open and realistic feeling I get when listening to the 461s. I think that's the more focused recording field of the hypers. The night, 12/8 I believe it was, I did the second band with 461's for comparison if you want to get a sense for what I'm trying to put into words. Both are up on LMA. Basically, I think that if I had run the 463's NYE I would have had a recording that sounding much like your mk41s. Very good, but different than what I got with the 461s.

The mk41s definitely didn't get as much of the talking as my 461s. I think that set of recordings will make for some good comparisons. Given the excellent location all the mics had a good chance to shine in their own ways.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: F.O.Bean on January 04, 2013, 02:34:55 PM
My ca14 cards>9100 source is REALLY GOOD :) The Schoeps DEFINITELY DO NOT sound like they were $3k more ;)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Ultfris101 on January 10, 2013, 12:17:53 AM
page and I recorded the classical jam session this evening. Seems like it was mostly musicians from the Richmond Symphony but I think one or two others from the area showed up. This is a recurring event where anybody is welcome to bring an instrument and join in.

There were several violins, a french horn, a couple cellos, a flute, maybe others(?). They setup in a horseshoe on a one foot high stage and changed personnel frequently, sight reading all night. There's a more formal event on 1/20. This was loose and informal.

We ran my ADK TL's and page's 4015's about 9 ft up on a stand at stagelip angled slightly downward. I had some challenges at the beginning running my new-to-me R-44 for the first time but once I worked out the kinks things were smooth. Initial listening is encouraging.

I'll try to get pics and samples up in the next day or so. I'd appreciate comments and suggestions.

page and everybody here, thanks a lot for the helpful discussion and pointers. This was fun and I'm very encouraged for the real event on 1/20!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on January 10, 2013, 09:25:37 AM
page and I recorded the classical jam session this evening.
[snip] [..]sight reading all night.

Thanks for the description, I was wondering how a classical jam format would work.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: page on January 10, 2013, 02:27:36 PM
I'm very encouraged for the real event on 1/20!

parking will be a wench, especially since it's supposed to start at 8..... (Fan parking zone 1 while VCU is in session) I haven't figured out what I'm going to do, but I'm tempted to park over on Main or Cary and just hoof it.

I'll tinker with it this weekend and post a clip. There are some highlights, but I think the best part of the evening was the reception that we received for coming out and recording. One of the few times I'd wished I had extra long balanced XLRs to run the gear bag off to the side. I may invest in a pair for future reference and just tape the cable down as it crosses from the stage to the benches. I'd typically left it under the stand with the lights on to give people walking past a heads up, but I'd really have liked to have checked my levels more than once last night....

oh, and Team Dumbass didn't turn off the -15db pad before I left the house so I think I ran through 3/4ths of the gain knob before I got sufficient stuff. Live and learn. :P
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Ultfris101 on January 10, 2013, 05:40:37 PM
Yes, they are really happy to have us coming out. It's going to help them a lot to have some recordings of their performances available online and also to get attention from outside their core group.  I like the technical aspects, but just as much being involved with something like this is very rewarding.

The sextet they got together toward the end is pretty nice and I liked the stuff at the beginning with the French horn. I'm wishing I had tried to get notes on what they played.

( update, got this from Ellen: Strictly from memory, I think we played a Mozart flute quartet, the Mozart horn quintet, the Reger Serenade, Beethoven op. 135, a Mozart quartet, another Mozart quartet, the Brahms G major sextet, and another Mozart flute quartet.)

I'm finding the conversations among the musicians between pieces and as they're changing out  fun to listen to as well. Figuring out which movement to play, etc. Ellen didn't think this would be valuable as a recording but I wonder if she listened she wouldn't change her mind. Not unlike taking some snapshots at a party. maybe in a few years.

Hmmm, I'll definitely strip down my gear bag if I'm lugging the TLs a ways. Maybe I'll call a cab  ;D
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: page on January 11, 2013, 12:47:50 AM
The sextet they got together toward the end is pretty nice

yeah, that's the section I'm going to pull out and toss on my gdrive for them. Maybe one other.

I'm finding the conversations among the musicians between pieces and as they're changing out  fun to listen to as well. Figuring out which movement to play, etc. Ellen didn't think this would be valuable as a recording but I wonder if she listened she wouldn't change her mind. Not unlike taking some snapshots at a party. maybe in a few years.

Very possible.  There are some things that I grimaced on (I have a major gain change half way through during a break that I'd have to fix), but there are some great moments as well. With some creative editing it could be an interesting document, even from just a historical or personal prospective.

It was a great experiment, and mine turned out well. Other than maybe light compression (in the 1.5:1 range), there isn't much I'd tinker with. We were close enough to get the clarity of the instruments, and far enough away to include room reverb (listen especially on the cello). Final peak was -7dbfs. I thought about using the british transformer modeler that I have to see what that would do to bring out the cello a bit more and tame some of those front strings, but I didn't on the first replay. If we had setup closer and angled further down, that probably would have alleviated itself, but we're back to the pregame chat of what do you want your stereo image to look like. Plus, if you angle it down too much, you're rear lobe is now rejecting the ceiling and not incidental crowd noise.

I did notice the quip about being glad that the mics weren't in their faces afterward. So xnay the multi-track spot mic yay I guess.

Totally worth going though, even if it was a tough evening in general for me.

Hmmm, I'll definitely strip down my gear bag if I'm lugging the TLs a ways. Maybe I'll call a cab  ;D

I have a friend who has a house down the block and we were talking about it cause of the 9pm parking enforcement. Neither of us realized until almost 30 minutes later that it's moot on Sundays (no parking nazis). Finding a spot in general will still be tough cause of VCU, but you at least don't have to worry about the time/zone problem which is a constant issue during the week there.

but yeah, now you have a better understanding why I pack what I pack.  :D

If you've never been to Balliceaux, and you have some money to burn, both the bar and kitchen are worth it.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on January 11, 2013, 09:49:20 AM
Note to all orchestra directors- please oil the piano benches before they become more distracting than your nosiest patrons!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Ultfris101 on January 11, 2013, 10:36:35 AM
So "Classical Revolution" has a stated aim (http://classicalrevolution.org/):


They aren't exactly trying to perform in a packed, noisy bar, but the venues such as The Camel are not acoustically optimized for such instruments I don't think.

Before we got started setting up our gear the sound guy was scratching his head over how he might try to mic them and run something through the PA's. He ditched that after he saw us setting up (and we talked him out of it) but it got me to wondering if it might be necessary if there had been more bar patrons. You're not likely to get a typical bar crowd to sit politely for this kind of stuff very often.

Has anybody ever seen or worked on such a situation?

The idea is to bring chamber music to non-traditional settings, but I wonder if there isn't some benefit to adapting a bit to these settings to improve the presentation as long as it somehow preserves the core of the music.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Ultfris101 on January 11, 2013, 11:57:01 AM
He had a handful of mics in his hands and was debating between spot mic'ing and setting up a stereo pair which given all the musicians changing probably would have been best for the situation. If it comes up again I'll keep that in mind.

As page pointed out, the woman leading the group commented that she was pleasantly surprised we just had the single placement of rigs up on a stand vs mics down in their faces so for this group it seems they would prefer that method if reinforcement was needed.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on January 11, 2013, 12:04:55 PM
Nooo! I hope you can avoid the PA if possible.  It can be done, but if it's not done well it destroys much of what makes classical music so interesting and involving and different from many other forms of modern music, at least for me.  It's much trickier to do well than reinforcing a rock band and sound guys who work bars around VCU that mostly play amplified stuff are not likely to master it quickly, and even if done technically well, changes important aspects of what makes 'chamber music' unique.

Hopefully they can simply select and play lively fortississimo pieces in decently live rooms without massive levels of background noise from HVAC/blowers, and if possible arrange things so people interested in the music can sit closer, and others can talk at the bar farther away.

Maybe reinforcement will be necessary, but I'd consider it a last resort.  Treating it something like a traditional blugrass act playing around a couple mics in the middle of the group would probably be the most fruitful approach and less foreign to decent sound guys around there I'd think.

As for chamber groups playing amplified with close mic’ing, I've seen Turtle Island Quartet recently and Kronos Quartet a few times in the past, both of which were excellent sounding exceptions, and their playing styles and techniques take specific advantage of what the PA can do other than simply make them louder without timbre and dynamics suffering much for it.  I was very interested to check out their reinforcement techniques and efforts.  They played PA amplified in theaters, but obviously have made a long-term effort to perfect the reinforcement and are top of the crop.

But those groups have a different focus in that they are modifying the traditional definition of what chamber music has been and has sounded like.  Since the goal here is instead performance of high-quality chamber music in non-traditional settings, (presumably traditional chamber music), it seems to me that preserving the traditional aspects of 'high-quality chamber music' which have value in those non-traditional settings is an important goal, as much as that’s possible.

Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: page on January 17, 2013, 12:36:39 AM
I've finally uploaded a sample (https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BwFNbeTwJYtWXy1zSXFoLXFwQm8) of mine from the 4015s. (24bit, no processing, needs about 2db of gain in the left channel). 90degrees, about 19cm.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: bombdiggity on January 17, 2013, 04:29:21 PM
I've finally uploaded a sample (https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BwFNbeTwJYtWXy1zSXFoLXFwQm8) of mine from the 4015s. (24bit, no processing, needs about 2db of gain in the left channel). 90degrees, about 19cm.

Thanks.  Interesting.  More power to 'em. 

I saw Joel Harrison's String Choir up here recently (ostensibly - and at least partly - playing the music of Paul Motian) and it was chamber/classical in orientation (that seems to be where his head is at these days).  So it was two electric guitars (Harrison and Steve Cardenas) and violin (ex-Turtle Island String Quartet), viola (Mat Maneri) and cello.  The were all amplified (guitar, cello) or mic'd overhead (violin and viola), as one might expect in a moderately sized hall (250-ish) with those dynamics in the mix.  In a pre-show talk he was discussing the classical/jazz synergy/dichotomy a bit. 

I do wind up seeing some "chamber jazz"...  also caught William Parker's Double Quartet (with a lot of strings) at the same place.  Have not really ventured to straight classical as I like improvisation (which is not necessarily a staple of classical music, though if one gets to know it well enough you do start to hear the individuality come through a bit).  I did also see that one of the NSO's violinists was joining the DC Jazz Jam last weekend, though missed that. 

As far as mics if you have access to some MK4V's try them on strings.  I have never heard anything better on strings (especially cello, which I do love) - unamplified, amplified and even mixed with effects.  The sweetness of the sound is enough that I don't even really care if I like what they're playing too much... 

The Harrison was good and sounded fine.  It's edited but not sure where I'll put it (or when I can do that). 


@ Jon Stoppable : "Most classical musicians HATE sound reinforcement,"

Some jazz musicians hate sound reinforcement too  ;D  Ask Lee Konitz about that sometime... or maybe not if you're the one who wants to set up mics.   :facepalm: 
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on January 17, 2013, 05:31:00 PM
Some jazz musicians hate sound reinforcement too  ;D  Ask Lee Konitz about that sometime... or maybe not if you're the one who wants to set up mics.   :facepalm:

So does Konitz get worked up if you only want to send mics signal to a recorder and not a PA?

I'm pretty much in that boat as well, just not as strongly as with classical, and find more good exceptions.  My problems with jazz reinforcement usually arise from attempts to PA reinforce rooms designed for accoustic music rather than in messing up the acoustic nature of it.

Looking forward to giving your samples a listen, Page.

Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Ultfris101 on January 17, 2013, 05:52:30 PM
For comparisons if anybody is interested I have everything I pulled out of the session Page and I recorded out here: https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0B_HyJhyb2H9vaXhTSUw0MHVUM1E/edit

MP3's under Classical Revolution RVA dir and 24bit flacs under the "classicalrevolution....flac24" dir. The longer tracks are mostly music, shorter ones are bits of music but mostly talking and shuffling of musicians.

Edit: although I see now that Google Drive doesn't show file sizes so it's probably hard to figure out which tracks are which. When I get home I'll point out the few that are the longer sets of music.

i ran the ADK TLs on the same stand with page, stagelip about 7-8ft angled slightly down over the musicians.

Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: bombdiggity on January 17, 2013, 10:33:50 PM
Some jazz musicians hate sound reinforcement too  ;D  Ask Lee Konitz about that sometime... or maybe not if you're the one who wants to set up mics.   :facepalm:

So does Konitz get worked up if you only want to send mics signal to a recorder and not a PA?


He doesn't like mics at all.  The show I have in mind he walked in and told the sound guys to take them all away.  Didn't really need them.  I got to leave mine into the recorder off stage but close (that time) since it was for the organizer of the date and maybe he was in a good mood.  Next time around he didn't want any for any purposes (though later asked if it was recorded since he thought it was a good one)...  He's a tad mercurial...  Plays great though. 

Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Ultfris101 on January 21, 2013, 12:56:22 AM
page and I recorded Classical Incarnations in Richmond, VA Sunday night. I ran AKG 480 ck62 omnis (~ortf, 110*, ~12in separation) this time and page the DPA 4015 about 8ft up at stagelip over the performers. This was more formal than the "jam session" but still a very loose event with a wide range of skill levels and instruments including violins, cellos, french horns, piano, voice, and I think my favorite from the evening a harp.





Update: I'll add that I'm in search of a service to make it easier to let a musician preview a recording without making it fully available on the internet. For example, the woman I'm working with had some challenges getting samples off of Google Drive (see my question in Ask The Tapers if you have any ideas: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=160314.0)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: page on January 21, 2013, 11:21:27 AM
I have a better appreciation for why people want to "fly" rigs now. There is a time and a place for each setup and I'd sort of forgotten when and where I might want to fly my mics without a stand.

Now I just need a pickup and 20' ladder that folds up...
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Ultfris101 on January 21, 2013, 11:25:32 AM
Indeed, i'm thinking of ways to hang 4061s out of the christmas light overhead and run a cable over and down the wall near the PA setup.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: page on January 21, 2013, 11:28:27 AM
Indeed, i'm thinking of ways to hang 4061s out of the christmas light overhead and run a cable over and down the wall near the PA setup.

That's probably the best pair to use for something like this for a series of reasons (small, unobtrusive, light weight). Only thing I'd worry about is a longer cable run without a balanced signal, especially running cables near those lights. We'll figure something out.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on January 21, 2013, 01:56:04 PM
Photo of four 4060s in a chandelier.  The 4060s are mounted in the charcoal colored spheres on the ends of telescopic TV antennae. No cable run though, recorders and preamps were stashed in the light fixture.   If powering them with the DPA XLR adapters or Niant PFAs you'd have a balanced run from that point onwards.

(http://taperssection.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=96009.0;attach=89005;image)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: bobbygeeWOW on January 21, 2013, 02:05:08 PM
Classic Gut rig. :)

Not that we'll ever get to hear it .....   8)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: page on January 21, 2013, 02:07:18 PM
If powering them with the DPA XLR adapters or Niant PFAs you'd have a balanced run from that point onwards.

I was about to contest that, but then I looked up the DPA microdot/xlr adapters. So yes, I agree with that. Carry on.  ;)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on January 21, 2013, 03:44:48 PM
:-*
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: F.O.Bean on January 21, 2013, 03:49:45 PM
:-*
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Ultfris101 on January 21, 2013, 04:27:35 PM
I ordered a second microdot/xlr adapter so that will be an option. Might also give the AKG active gear I ordered from Jon a whirl as well at some point once I have that in hand. Next classical performance will be in mid-Feb.

Now I'm contemplating recording Gamelan Raga Kusuma (music and dancing) in the same venue next week.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: F.O.Bean on January 21, 2013, 06:41:08 PM
Do it!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: page on February 16, 2013, 06:56:09 PM
Sooo... Is there a rule of thumb related to the optimum angle down and aim point of a stereo pair if you're setup behind a conductor? (e.g. 30 degrees below level and aimed 2/3rds of the way deep into the orchestra)



Paging D.Satz and J.Willett, cleanup on aisle 5. Thank you.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: DigiGal on February 16, 2013, 08:48:18 PM
Sooo... Is there a rule of thumb related to the optimum angle down and aim point of a stereo pair if you're setup behind a conductor? (e.g. 30 degrees below level and aimed 2/3rds of the way deep into the orchestra)



Paging D.Satz and J.Willett, cleanup on aisle 5. Thank you.

try 5 degrees downward tilt
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: page on February 16, 2013, 08:52:33 PM
Sooo... Is there a rule of thumb related to the optimum angle down and aim point of a stereo pair if you're setup behind a conductor? (e.g. 30 degrees below level and aimed 2/3rds of the way deep into the orchestra)



Paging D.Satz and J.Willett, cleanup on aisle 5. Thank you.

try 5 degrees downward tilt

and aim where (which would thus give me a height).
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: DigiGal on February 16, 2013, 09:04:12 PM
Sooo... Is there a rule of thumb related to the optimum angle down and aim point of a stereo pair if you're setup behind a conductor? (e.g. 30 degrees below level and aimed 2/3rds of the way deep into the orchestra)



Paging D.Satz and J.Willett, cleanup on aisle 5. Thank you.

try 5 degrees downward tilt

and aim where (which would thus give me a height).


Place the mic pair about 6.5 to 8 feet higher than the performance floor, about 4 to 6.5 feet behind the conductor, tilt the array down 5°.  Listen carefully to results after recording a rehearsal, adjust distance and height until satisfied with the ambience and imaging.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: page on February 16, 2013, 10:20:35 PM
Sooo... Is there a rule of thumb related to the optimum angle down and aim point of a stereo pair if you're setup behind a conductor? (e.g. 30 degrees below level and aimed 2/3rds of the way deep into the orchestra)



Paging D.Satz and J.Willett, cleanup on aisle 5. Thank you.

try 5 degrees downward tilt

and aim where (which would thus give me a height).


Place the mic pair about 6.5 to 8 feet higher than the performance floor, about 4 to 6.5 feet behind the conductor, tilt the array down 5°.  Listen carefully to results after recording a rehearsal, adjust distance and height until satisfied with the ambience and imaging.

Really, that low for a mid-sized chamber orchestra? That looks like I'd be losing the direct sound (as blocked by sheet stands) for anything past the first or second row if I was under 9' off the stage floor. Am I missing something? I get the 6' back from the conductor, that gets a nice orchestral angle, but the low height throws me for a loop.

Unfortunately practice/listening isn't an option for this, so I'm trying to compensate with extra planning... I have a sneaky suspicion that I'll be at a minimum of 8' off the stage floor (tall conductor...)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: F.O.Bean on February 17, 2013, 07:25:58 PM
I would record at a height equal to the orchestra and maybe just a few feet behind the conductor
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: bobbygeeWOW on February 19, 2013, 02:01:07 PM
I record a jazz orchestra with a stand right behind the conductor on a regular basis.
Tried a bunch of different heights (and mic configs) over the years, basically by eyeballing from the stage, then listening back..
Obviously conditions vary and its a game of finding a useful compromise.

I think the only reference that would be useful for you is that I try to get a balanced sound by thinking of placing the mics sort of equidistant from all rows of performers, front to back.
So adding height moves the mics away from the front row saxes (loud), and effectively sort of brings the mid-row trombone section (quiet) more into the mix. (Trumpets in the back have no problem projecting..)
The actual placement would be unique for the riser configuration they use on stage.

I additionally also run/split a couple spot mics for quiet instruments like percussion and vocals to get them to tape at decent levels for later blending.


 -Cheers!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Ultfris101 on February 19, 2013, 03:45:50 PM
page and I are actually tackling very similar challenges this week. Without the benefit of practice taping a rehearsal I think I am going to start about 9ft with a small amount of downward angle. I will dust of my junior high trig and do some rough calculations to see if I'm way off once I see how they physically setup the group to aim for equal distances.

Thanks for the helpful responses to page's questions which in turn benefit me as well. At the very least I feel like I have a good place to start from with a reasonable chance of decent results. I'm recording Thursday so I can take notes and let page benefit from what I learn. I don't expect to have my KCY Tinybox yet so my Schoeps are out but I will probably run page's DPA 4015 subcard pair he has generously loaned me.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: DigiGal on February 19, 2013, 05:24:14 PM
There are several iOS Apps (i.e.: iHandy Level, Clinometer+3, etc.) that are handy to measure your tilt angle.

iHandy Level Free By iHandy Inc. (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ihandy-level-free/id299852753?mt=8)
(http://a315.phobos.apple.com/us/r1000/100/Purple/v4/b8/57/7d/b8577d5e-db5a-a04f-6f1d-3dcf1af4ceed/mza_1071756328655042813.320x480-75.jpg)


Clinometer+3 By michael heinz (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/clinometer+3/id409812819?mt=8)
(http://a1225.phobos.apple.com/us/r1000/058/Purple/59/71/62/mzl.ayweofwy.320x480-75.jpg)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: page on February 20, 2013, 08:58:48 PM
I think the only reference that would be useful for you is that I try to get a balanced sound by thinking of placing the mics sort of equidistant from all rows of performers, front to back.
So adding height moves the mics away from the front row saxes (loud), and effectively sort of brings the mid-row trombone section (quiet) more into the mix. (Trumpets in the back have no problem projecting..)
The actual placement would be unique for the riser configuration they use on stage


Thanks. His was where I was headed in that ive done jazz recording exactly like this (irnically, i fnd trmbones loud and trumpets quiet, i guess i know loud trombone players or quiet trumpeters... actually it probably because reading sheet music with a trumpet necessitates "looking" down and effectively muting it some)

First, most of the strings will be targeted/tilted upward in their radiation pattern. Second, i find sheet stands to be blockers in terms of clear sound, more so than i would have expected. This is also a carry over from jazz recording, so I didnt know if folks did anything to compensate for that. Like chris, I appreciate the responses.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on February 20, 2013, 10:14:08 PM
Music stands suck.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: ScoobieKW on February 20, 2013, 10:29:29 PM
Music stands suck.

one more reason to listen to improvised music...  ;D
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Tom McCreadie on February 21, 2013, 09:45:01 AM
Sooo... Is there a rule of thumb related to the optimum angle down and aim point of a stereo pair if you're setup behind a conductor? (e.g. 30 degrees below level and aimed 2/3rds of the way deep into the orchestra)

Ensure that the angle subtended to the stand top by the L- and R-edges of the orchestra fits comfortably within the recording angle of the array. Normally you would need ca. 90 deg (+/- 45) subtended when using an ORTF setup, but ca. 80 deg. (bit further back) for NOS. Try to even out the intensity (distance) differences  between the front and rear orchestra rows by raising the mics. This will also minimize the effect of one musician blocking the sound of a player behind him (less of an issue if the musicians are on a "terraced" podium.) When using unidirectional mics like cardioids, it can help to point the mics slightly downwards, but at the rear row. By feathering the mics over the heads of first row, you enlist the off-axis level drop-off of the cardioids to help manage the front/rear level inbalance.

After a final check that the direct/reverb ratio is pleasant (by listening through one ear), you might typically be ca. 3m behind the conductor and 3-4m high. Then the test recording and tweaking can begin in earnest  :-).

Li
   
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on February 21, 2013, 09:57:27 AM
Music stands suck.
one more reason to listen to improvised music...  ;D

..where the musician plays the roll of real-time instantaneous composer.  I'm happy there is a broad fertile range between both ends of the spectrum. 

Music stands are an unfortunate necessity.  They clutter up things, get in the way of the stage arrangements, and block sound and sight lines.  Bring on the retinal projection score technology.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: page on February 21, 2013, 10:37:19 AM
When using unidirectional mics like cardioids, it can help to point the mics slightly downwards, but at the rear row. By feathering the mics over the heads of first row, you enlist the off-axis level drop-off of the cardioids to help manage the front/rear level inbalance.

Makes sense. Thanks for the confirmation.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on February 21, 2013, 01:06:07 PM
It was a slow moring here, I'll play something of a contrarian on the stand height / microphone angle geometry stuff.

My suggestion is not to get overly hung up on trying to get a similar level of direct sound from all sections of the orchestra.  For one thing, the physical arrangement of instrument sections is purposeful and designed with the loudness and timbre of each section as heard from the audience in mind. For another, hearing a wide range of depths across the orchestra or ensemble makes for a more interesting and rewarding listening experience to my ear.  To be clear, I’m not taking about some purist stance of ‘recording the actual sound,’ or ‘recording from the audience perspective’.  I have no qualms about improving things to optimize the listening experience as much as possible.

All the suggestions for height and angle have obviously worked well for others here and are more or less standard time-tested setups, yet.. and I know it is cliché to say so and repeated ad nauseum.. trust your ears rather than your eyes or the dictates of any standard setup technique to optimize things beyond those generic starting points if you can.  And when doing that, it may be helpful to mentally switch hats back and forth between listening as a music lover as well as a recordist and audio technician.

What makes for an interesting and engaging recording to your ear?  Do you really want all the sections of the orchestra to appear in the same sonic depth-layer, with the same direct/reverberant balance?  If the room doesn’t sound that great, then that may be a good choice to achieve the most palatable sound. But if the room sounds really good..

What I really love about my better classical recordings is when the technical aspects are well balanced enough that I can quickly put all those things out of mind and forget about them when listening. I want a full experience of being there, hearing it all even more optimally than I can experience it live- with among other things, both intimacy and depth in a believable perspective, both equally important.

Beyond the basic technical aspects need to achieve a decent recording, I get that listening experience from a good breadth of balanced contrasts- a wide range of dynamics, image depth, timbres, and imaging, and room envelopment.  I don’t get that listening experience when all the instrumentation seems to have nearly identical depth and an identical direct/reverberant balance.  I want to hear all the elements and sections clearly of course, but I also want to hear the instruments which are located in the back of the orchestra as being in back and farther away.

Admittedly, recording that way is something of a luxury which demands a great sounding room.  If the ambience of the room doesn’t sound that great, or if there are other more basic issues, a reduced depth perspective which achieves a clear and equal contribution from all sections may be a very wise compromise. But if the room sounds great, do you really want all the sections of the orchestra to appear in the same sonic depth-layer, with the same direct/reverberant balance? 

Ideally I don’t want the instruments in the back row to have the same apparent depth as those in front.  I want them to sound like they are in the back, farther away from me, deeper in a great sounding hall than the sections in front.  I want the front sections to sound closer, including any featured soloists sounding more direct and intimate standing beside the conductor, yet still in the same space and not overlaid on top or oddly gigantic.

I was thinking about this (and this thread) last night while reading some excerpts from David A. Pickett’s website (http://www.fugato.com/pickett/index.shtml) on his research into the music of Mahler.  He explains how after a few performances, Mahler would sometimes make post-publication manuscript revisions to his scores to achieve the intended sound from the audience perspective, reflecting his experience of conducting them in a live concert hall setting, and how those changes have sometimes become ridiculously exaggerated in recordings which ignore the composers original intended listening balance for clarity and technical balance.  I’d argue it also sacrifices the sonic depth which I feel make a great recording engaging and enveloping. Here’s a good short example with sound clips to hear what he’s talking about- http://www.fugato.com/pickett/mahler5-3.shtml (http://www.fugato.com/pickett/mahler5-3.shtml)

His general argument is pretty much what I’m getting at, although it argues more specifically against over use of spot microphones (an long running classical recording debate we’re all familiar with – I’m sure we’ve all have ridiculously exaggerated soloists or other sections in some commercial classical recordings).  As mostly simple stereo-pair recordists for the most part, we don’t need to worry about those spot mic’ing problems so much, but I still find the crushed depth perspective provided by mics up high looking down on the orchestra to often sound unnaturally flat and less-engaging, even if it does make for all the sections sounding more or less equally clear.  It can also present problems with timbre from the upward radiating brightness and proximity of the violins and violas as others have noted.

I don’t want either an entirely distant, ambient audience perspective or a flat, up-close birds ear view.  I want the best balance which incorporates something of both extremes, something of a middle way with range.

In the best rooms I’ve recorded in, I’ve gotten that from diffuse field response omnis placed lower, out of the bright upward violin radiation zone, sometimes without a direct line of sight to everything farther back. I much prefer the sound of violins from in front of them rather than not very high above them.. as long as the damn music stands don't get in the way. ;) The diffuse omnis, placed out of the violin screech zone helps achieve that.  But good clarity from the distant instruments in back while also getting that nice depth requires very good room sound. 

Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: bombdiggity on February 21, 2013, 02:36:00 PM
Music stands suck.

one more reason to listen to improvised music...  ;D

On a contrarian note: I was initially a bit surprised by how many improvising musicians do have some sort of music notation on stands at their performances.  I'd bet in a blindfold test without prior knowledge of the players it would be practically impossible to tell if a particular improvising performance (or even one more or less fully improvised) involved some sort of notation or not (though one can sometimes easily recognize when there is no notation at all).  I'm inclined to think that middle space may actually be the most challenging way to try to play... 
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on February 21, 2013, 03:14:32 PM
How much is, and the limitations on what can be indicated in a score is an interesting thing.

I imagine some jazz charts are highly notated while others simply indicate the song structure (A-B-A-B-A for example) and the Key or modes or what have you.  Like many others, as an amateur musician who doesn't read music, I use simple lyric and chord change sheets to play less familiar pieces with friends.  Other than following that the chord structure, the arrangement and playing is either improvised or interpretations of the general melody line.  Ironically the problem is usually a lack of music stands and extra copies, making the lyrics and chord changes hard for everyone to follow by sight.  I once considered building a board with foot switched lights that a song leader could use to clearly and easily indicate just the chord changes to the rest of the group, and maybe when the B section rolls around.

Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Ultfris101 on February 22, 2013, 02:51:17 AM
I ended up at about 12ft up, 8ft behind conductor, ORTF config (did my best) ~110*, 17cm separation, 15* down angle. Turned out pretty good other than my levels weren't high enough and after normalizing there is a lot of background noise. If soloist I was recording for approves I can share a sample.

I ran page's DPA 4015s > tinybox +16db > sony pcm-m10 gain 4

Here's a picture from riser:

Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Ultfris101 on February 22, 2013, 09:02:21 AM
So thinking about the levels more, I didn't want to jump all the way to +32db on the tinybox for fear of maxing out. In hindsight I probably would have been ok, but it's a bit scary to go that far. I never have trouble getting decent levels (in the -12db range) with loud rock or at least I don't notice the noise floor after normalizing except for a show like the The Residents which I recorded recently and for the first time in memory an audience was actually quiet.

I've been thinking about getting another preamp to pair with my R-44 and provide balanced connections all the way through as well as more variable gain. If I had had time to run more tests I'd have used page's usbpre2 but in this case didn't want to change too many things up.

Is it normal to find you need to add that much gain in this recording scenario or does this suggest I was setup in a less than optimal location/configuration? I know it's probably tough to answer without samples. I'll try to get some up soon.

Lee, I only had a chance to skim your post last night after the performance. It certainly has me thinking after the fact. I hope get an opportunity to record in this venue again. If you consider the best seats (or any seats) in the house are rarely 15 ft up right behind the conductor, there's certainly something to be said for capturing what the audience is hearing. I'm far from an expert in these things, but it sounded pretty good to me sitting at the base of my mic stand. I assume a couple rows up the riser right behind me would have been just that much better.

I do wish I had had another set of mics or an omni down lower as the Conductor spent a fair amount of time introducing the pieces and the soloist was also given an opportunity to talk about the piece she chose to perform. That was picked up but is very low even after amplifying.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: DigiGal on February 22, 2013, 10:09:18 AM
Is it normal to find you need to add that much gain in this recording scenario or does this suggest I was setup in a less than optimal location/configuration?

Unlike amplified and compressed rock shows Orchestral Music has a very W - I - D - E  Dynamic Range! 
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on February 22, 2013, 10:18:28 AM
Dynamics are so heavily dependant on the program and the audience for this type of recording.  Peak levels other than audience applause are harder to predict.  If your levels are lower than you’d like, call it recording headroom and you can feel better about it.  If the audience was relatively tame, they won’t peak too high with the mics 12’ up and it really becomes a question of the dynamics of the pieces played.  It's usually either all pretty low or hugely dynamic in places.


I wasn’t suggesting you should necessarily setup the mics lower, I'm mostly just rejecting always using standard cookie-cutter setups and throwing alternate ideas out there.  I'm also not actually advocating putting the mics in the 'best seat' locations in the audience. I think the mics really need to be closer to the ensemble than that, somewhere around the critical distance.

Of course a lot of what determines which live and recorded perspective is optimal is simply personal preference.  I like the impact, intimacy and perspective of sitting up front, and I also like not having patrons in front of me which become distractions.  Maybe that’s the recordist in me.  Most prefer to sit farther back where the orchestra blends a bit more. It’s a good thing we don’t all prefer the same things.

Lower will catch more of the audience perspective as well as the conductor's introductions, but can introduce problems like picking up little noises like squeaky performer chairs or conductor podium, more audience noise in general, and more specifically discernible audience noises in the near-proximity.   It will make the applause peak higher and sound much closer.  It’s all about finding the most optimal compromise for the situation.

I can’t imagine you could go wrong with the setup in your photo.

Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: page on February 22, 2013, 01:50:20 PM
Music stands suck.

one more reason to listen to improvised music...  ;D

On a contrarian note: I was initially a bit surprised by how many improvising musicians do have some sort of music notation on stands at their performances.

+1

Whether they read it or not is a different question, but most of the folks I know who do improv (but not avant-garde) style music that has a general base to it will use stands. The pure free/improve people don't use stands, but thats a different story.


ORTF config (did my best)

don't forget; ortf is cardioid only. Now that I think about it, I don't think there are any traditional patterns that use subcards; it's all SRA-style calculations at that point.

Turned out pretty good other than my levels weren't high enough and after normalizing there is a lot of background noise.

I ran page's DPA 4015s > tinybox +16db >

your AKGs have a much higher mv/pa sensitivity than the DPAs which are 11 mv/pa, so you're needing more gain to get the same levels right off the bat (order of 4-6db or so). Second, as others have pointed out; classical strings are likely to be quieter than anything else we will record in "room recording" environments. So now that you know the mv/pa, and you said the tinybox added 16db of gain, then it's just find the max input of the m10 and your final peak value, that should tell you what your overall SPL peak was at the mic cap.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: bombdiggity on February 24, 2013, 03:10:23 AM
How much is, and the limitations on what can be indicated in a score is an interesting thing.


It is (and I'm not even a musician).  When Tim Berne's Snakeoil was here they had fairly large sets of charts.  Two of my musician friends took a look at them in between sets and neither could determine what any of it meant...  I think they were sort of like pictures or illustrations (though watching the show they clearly were referring to them - but on the other hand the same song can be 10 minutes one night and 20 minutes the next, so it isn't notation exactly). 

I think a lot of the deeper improv leaders wind up developing their own systems of notation. 

Mary Halvorson said Anthony Braxton's scores are these gigantic color coded things that bear no resemblance to traditional notation but carry a huge amount of information within them.  So to play in his groups you also have to learn how to interpret his system (of notation as well as of music).  Though she also said it's not a literal note by note score but instead a sort of general framework from which the band operates while following each other and his conduction/cues (and improvising). 

It was definitely an adjustment for me when I started going to shows where people were referring to or reading music.  Joel Harrison held an interesting discussion I caught that wound up examining the written/not written and jazz/classical divides.  He was of the opinion it was a different skill set and that the best classical musicians have to spend their time focused on very specific pieces to where they become sort of untouchable on them, whereas the true improvisors don't have that time (or usually the inclination either) to limit their range and so can't play a repertoire the way a classical musician can.  Sight reading itself is also a very specific skill (and a very difficult one that not too many players truly "own"). 

I've finally come to notice that there is a very subtle level of interpretation and intonation in classical music that isn't improvisation but carries some individual personality and sets the performances apart.  But I have to like the repertoire and style to like listening to any given piece (and still don't know enough about it all to always be sure of that in advance).

Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Ultfris101 on June 04, 2013, 11:14:22 AM
We're finally getting some of the monthly Classical Revolution RVA (http://classicalrevolutionrva.org) performances shared with the public. Here are January and February of this year. More to come. Grayson and I have been evolving our recording techniques and thus the overall consistency improves from month to month. Some of the transitions may be choppy as a few of the performers chose not to have recordings of their performances made public for one reason or another.

January 2013 - https://archive.org/details/classicalrevrva2013-01-20.akg482.tb.m10.flac16

February 2013 - https://archive.org/details/classicalrevrva2013-02-17.dpa4015c.usbpre2.r-44.flac24

Updates to come as I get more of them posted. I'll try to find some pictures of the setups to post as well.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: bombdiggity on June 04, 2013, 11:46:33 AM
I've posted a few classical audies (lo-profile) on DIME of late.  I've enjoyed the sets and the sound was good despite the circumstances. 

They're also available archived via a real low res video stream from the venue site so it seems fair game to provide something listenable for any who are interested. 

I'm not really tuned into that scene around town (and wouldn't have time to go to much else) so I go mainly just to broaden my ears/mind and record to be able to listen later. 
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: jnorman on June 04, 2013, 12:06:55 PM
i just did some recording of a concert by a local composer in the Mt Angel Abbey Library Auditorium here in oregon.  couple pieces for english horn and piano, fantasy for oboe and piano, and 36 songs for flute, soprano, and piano based on poems by sappho.  here are a couple of them on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t1sumTNtQg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCbUxfhMTBY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMEIwISY8j4
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Ultfris101 on June 04, 2013, 01:53:12 PM
Thanks for sharing bomb and jnorman. I'll check these out when I have some time at home. Can't listen to audio at work but the video looks great.

jnorman,

Can you share some technical details like mics? Are the ones in the shot all you used or did you have others? And were you running sound into the camera or did you match up later?

One of the regulars at the Classical Revolution gigs who provides piano accompaniment also runs a video camera so I've been contemplating getting with him to start combining video and audio.

On 5/19 Grayson and I ran a stationary pair above, just in front, and roughly centered on the stage (schoeps mk5's)  and then we had a second pair (dpa 4015c) on a short stand we repositioned with each performer. These shows have lots of different instruments and configurations, sometimes a seated guitarist, sometimes a standing violinist, even a harpist so it varies a lot. One pair just isn't enough most of the time. The second pair really helps manage the dynamics.

The harp performance and recording turned out great that night btw. I might put that one up next.



Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: page on June 04, 2013, 02:30:25 PM
One of the regulars at the Classical Revolution gigs who provides piano accompaniment also runs a video camera so I've been contemplating getting with him to start combining video and audio.

He snagged me at the recital last week and chatted about that. It's just a point of scheduling time and doing the work and I've got his contact info. From my conversation, I gather the onerous will fall on us to do it though. If he leaves it running between performances (unlikely) it will be significantly easier to resync and do speed correction just once per set instead of on each song...  :(

The harp performance and recording turned out great that night btw. I might put that one up next.

that harp was lush. I'm be tempted to move back about a foot next time to get a little more room reverb, but it did sound awesome.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: jnorman on June 04, 2013, 02:31:38 PM
ultfris - i only ran the ORTF pair of KM184s>focusrite scarlett 18i6>thinkpad T410 i7 running Reaper.  video (panasonic ZS10) and audio were done separately, and then sync'ed during post with adobe premiere, output as 720p mp4.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Ultfris101 on June 04, 2013, 04:34:39 PM
ultfris - i only ran the ORTF pair of KM184s>focusrite scarlett 18i6>thinkpad T410 i7 running Reaper.  video (panasonic ZS10) and audio were done separately, and then sync'ed during post with adobe premiere, output as 720p mp4.

The Lumix ZS10? I think I have a ZS15. haven't paid much attention to it lately using my phone for snapshots and a new-to-me Canon EOS Rebel. Duh. Never occurred to me to try doing video with that. I might try some video while audio taping this weekend to see how it goes. I could easily mount that on my stand next to the mics.

Could it really be that I might add some equipment to my rig and gear bag without spending more $$?

[Edit: Nope. I remember now talking to the guy at Best Buy "No, I don't really need high quality video..." I have a ZS5]
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on June 05, 2013, 10:19:57 AM
Thanks for posting links to the samples.  I got a chance to listen to a few last night.

Enjoyed the sappho pieces in your third link most, John.  Interesting combination of sounds with the flute, vocal and piano. I always like how flute illuminates a good room room differently than the other instruments. The vocal sounded very nicely recorded with an interesting contrast between the sounds of all three musicians and excellent imaging on your recording.

Chris, I just listened to the first half of your February date and really dug the Je te veiux piece in track 10. I think the violin pieces would benefit from mic'ing from a bit farther away or from a lower angle to put some more room around the instrument and give it more of a rounded sound with and less screech and forward presence.  Hope you don't mind that bit of critique.

Looking forward to giving the rest a listen.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: page on June 05, 2013, 01:35:52 PM
Chris, I just listened to the first half of your February date and really dug the Je te veiux piece in track 10. I think the violin pieces would benefit from mic'ing from a bit farther away or from a lower angle to put some more room around the instrument and give it more of a rounded sound with and less screech and forward presence.  Hope you don't mind that bit of critique.

ah, that was mine. there are a couple problems, those dpas are subcards, but regardless, the kitchen for the restaurant is directly to the left (and largely open) of the stage, so short of spot micing, there isn't much you can do to get rid of the sizzle of fryers, the clanking of dishes being washed and (more aptly at the last performance) the cooks shouting foul language back and forth. The cards work better for a further back sound, but that runs into the next problem; they have the PA (which is hideously tuned) sitting behind the stage, so get too far away and you start to pick up the stage and whatever the PA picks up.

It's an attractive room, with great food, but it has a bunch of sonic deficiencies...
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on June 05, 2013, 04:55:47 PM
Cooks!

If you are moving the mics between musicians anyway, you might try mic'ing one of the violin pieces from down low, like in front and underneath the player, 2-3' off the ground and pointing up at the underside of the fiddle- which keeps the mics in close, positions them in the warmer timbre radiation zone of the violin, and may also be low enough that other persons, stands, chairs and whatever else to either side may help screen out a little of the kitchen mahem.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: jnorman on June 05, 2013, 05:39:45 PM
gut - good point.  i have used that technique on vocalists also when i needed to keep a low profie for the micing.
Title: First choir recording with new Church Audio setup
Post by: voltronic on July 15, 2013, 05:07:35 PM
First I want to thank everyone here at TS for giving me quite an education on live recording, especially the information on SRA.  Yesterday I finally got to apply what I've learned here and I'm very pleased with the results.  I would love to hear feedback and criticism on my recording.  This is my also my first time using the Church CA-14s that came last week (thanks Chris). 

I can only share the two public domain works in their entirety - Rheinberger Abendlied and Viadana Exultate Justi.  The other tracks are excerpts of 30 seconds or less which I'm including only for public critique on the recording.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ibbl92kc882t7fn/cwuwLi6SKg (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ibbl92kc882t7fn/cwuwLi6SKg)

Venue:
St. Peter's Episcopal Church - Lewes, DE
http://www.stpeterslewes.org/ (http://www.stpeterslewes.org/)
July 14, 2013

Ensemble:
Chester County (PA) Choral Society Chamber Ensemble (14 singers out of the normal 20 for this performance: 4 Soprano, 4 Alto, 3 Tenor, 3 Bass). 
My wife and I are both performing with the ensemble (so please excuse the shameless promotion here);D.
http://www.chestercountychoralsociety.org/ (http://www.chestercountychoralsociety.org/)
Singers arranged in mixed voice formation; single arc with center of formation standing in front of communion rail; edges curving around to just past first stained-glass window on side walls.

Here is a picture from the rear of the church (my setup is on the tall stand):
(http://s24.postimg.org/tr4cybfa9/IMG_2332_1374016877430.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/tr4cybfa9/)

Church Audio CA-14 Cardiods, DIN-A
Clipped to DIY mount made from cut aluminum ruler in shockmount.  Mics angled about 15 degrees down toward center singers.
10' stand, center aisle at first pew directly behind conductor.

Church Audio CA-14(c) > Darktrain 10' mini star quad extension > Church UBB > Sony PCM-M10 MIC IN, level 6 (24/48) > PC

Audacity (limiting applause and normalization) > Reaper (splits / fades / tracking) > TLH (FLAC24 level 8 )

(edited to add better picture taken during performance)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on July 15, 2013, 05:42:49 PM
Glad to hear.  Looking forward to giving a listen, but heading out of town so it will have to be in a couple weeks when I get back if they're still in your dropbox.
Title: Re: First choir recording with new Church Audio setup
Post by: page on July 15, 2013, 10:45:23 PM
Audacity (limiting applause and normalization) > Reaper (splits / fades / tracking)

Neat looking room.  :coolguy:

You're the first person I've ever seen do audacity > reaper. I do it the other way around is what makes it seem odd is all (reaper for all of my edits, audacity just to track it).
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: voltronic on July 15, 2013, 11:23:57 PM
Yeah, I loved singing (and recording) there.  Really suprisingly good acoustics for such a tiny church - that picture was taken from the very last pew with no zoom!  Also, it was by far the most polite audience I've ever experienced.  They were completely quiet during the music - just some brief camera shutter noise in two pieces - and they were enthusiastic and appreciative in between.  I recorded the dress rehearsal also in case we needed to do comps for some selections, and the noise floor was nearly identical - obviously there's just a difference in the hall ambiance with the pews empty / full.  Maybe I'll have to start a counter-thread to the "Latest annoying concertgoer behavior" discussion... ;)

I suppose it is strange to use Audacity first, but I find it easier to tame applause peaks and normalize the level there before popping into Reaper for more serious editing.  Also, for the types of things I record I'm throwing away all of the in-between talking, etc. and fading in/out at track boundaries as the last thing I do before exporting to new files, and those things are so much easier to do in Reaper.  I could just use Reaper for everything I suppose, but old habits die hard.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: F.O.Bean on July 16, 2013, 12:13:37 AM
Looks like a cool church/venue. I would LOVE to record in a place like that. 4 channel Schoeps in a nice church would be killer. Got any samples I can stream on soundcloud or the like? Im DYING to hear your recording ;) 8)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: voltronic on July 16, 2013, 08:43:07 AM
I uploaded at least a portion of each piece to my dropbox - check my post above.  They're the original resolution 24/48 FLACs so kind of big files, but I figured if I'm asking folks to critique my recording I'm not going to post mp3s.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: bombdiggity on July 17, 2013, 11:48:04 AM
Beautiful setting. 

Having recorded in a lot of churches I will say most sound... well... cavernous.  You have to get close (as you did).  Since they are not often designed with the acoustics of music in mind (though sometimes with the thought of naturally amplifying spoken word) they tend to be extremely "live" and reverberant.  Good settings for choir or classical perhaps but most are extraordinarily challenging with any amplification in the room... 

Will try to listen later. 

Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: page on July 17, 2013, 08:36:13 PM
Finally got around to posting it: http://archive.org/details/classicalrevrva2013-06-12.dpa4015c.flac16
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: voltronic on July 18, 2013, 05:37:04 PM
Beautiful setting. 

Having recorded in a lot of churches I will say most sound... well... cavernous.  You have to get close (as you did).  Since they are not often designed with the acoustics of music in mind (though sometimes with the thought of naturally amplifying spoken word) they tend to be extremely "live" and reverberant.  Good settings for choir or classical perhaps but most are extraordinarily challenging with any amplification in the room... 

Will try to listen later.

The acoustics were really great for such a small church.  If you check my original post, I just uploaded a much better picture that a church member took during the concert. 

I was set up that close mainly because I had to be in order to not interfere with the audience getting in and out.  I went DIN-A instead of DIN or ORTF in an effort to get more hall sound while still being that close.  If we were just recording there rather than doing a live concert, I would have preferred to be more towards the middle of the church.  I'm not sure if my interpretation of Stereophonic Zoom is correct as far as that goes, but if I have understood correctly DIN-A would give me the widest SRA of those 3 setups.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on July 18, 2013, 10:24:11 PM
I went DIN-A instead of DIN or ORTF in an effort to get more hall sound while still being that close.  If we were just recording there rather than doing a live concert, I would have preferred to be more towards the middle of the church.  I'm not sure if my interpretation of Stereophonic Zoom is correct as far as that goes, but if I have understood correctly DIN-A would give me the widest SRA of those 3 setups.

Widest in the sense of the distribution of sound sources between the speakers.  If located in the same spot, what will change most between those setups is the playback stereo imaging, not so much the amout of hall sound on the recording.  Actually ORTF will pickup slightly more room sound due to the wider angle between mics, but to change the direct/reverberant balance significantly you'd need to move closer/farther-away or more radically change the angle between microphones and perhaps the pickup pattern.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: voltronic on July 19, 2013, 12:53:54 AM
I went DIN-A instead of DIN or ORTF in an effort to get more hall sound while still being that close.  If we were just recording there rather than doing a live concert, I would have preferred to be more towards the middle of the church.  I'm not sure if my interpretation of Stereophonic Zoom is correct as far as that goes, but if I have understood correctly DIN-A would give me the widest SRA of those 3 setups.

Widest in the sense of the distribution of sound sources between the speakers.  If located in the same spot, what will change most between those setups is the playback stereo imaging, not so much the amout of hall sound on the recording.  Actually ORTF will pickup slightly more room sound due to the wider angle between mics, but to change the direct/reverberant balance significantly you'd need to move closer/farther-away or more radically change the angle between microphones and perhaps the pickup pattern.

Hmm, I guess I need to go study the SZ paper again.  I was under the assumption that ORTF would actually pickup less room sound becuase while the mic angle is widest of the 3 arrangements, its SRA is narrowest.  This is the part of the SZ paper that took me the longest to wrap my head around, and maybe I still don't quite get it. :P

My main concern during setup was making sure the entire group was within the range of the SRA.   Moving my stand farther back was not an option, unfortunately.  When I measured angles from the mic position, the outer singers of the ensemble would have been outside the SRA of ORTF (96 deg for cards).  We were just within the SRA boundaries for DIN, so I chose DIN-A to give me some breathing room in covering everyone and hopefully capturing some more of the room sound also.  Was my OCD measuring of angles unnecessary?

BTW, this is the app I used to measure the angles quickly with my phone: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.appyhand.bearingcompass (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.appyhand.bearingcompass)
You rotate into landscape mode and then you are looking at your camera with a horizontal compass bearing overlay on the screen.  I took a bearing of straight ahead from the mic position, then pivoted left and right to the edges of the group and noted the bearings of those points also and then added / subtracted from the original bearing to come up with the width of the group as seen from the mic position.  I must have tried about 10 different apps before I found one that did this.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: page on July 19, 2013, 01:16:31 AM
if you want to cheat @ SRA calculations:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Visualization-ORTF-E.htm
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: voltronic on July 19, 2013, 08:31:00 AM
if you want to cheat @ SRA calculations:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Visualization-ORTF-E.htm

Yup, that's what I was using, on recommendation from someone here at TS.  I also use this:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=air.com.neumann.recordingtools (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=air.com.neumann.recordingtools)
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/recording-tools/id576702914?mt=8 (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/recording-tools/id576702914?mt=8)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: page on July 19, 2013, 10:17:03 AM
if you want to cheat @ SRA calculations:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Visualization-ORTF-E.htm

Yup, that's what I was using, on recommendation from someone here at TS.

ok, then yeah, I'd suggest re-reading the SRA bit; thats the benefit of the sengpiel visualization; you can see where given a known orchestral angle, you can see where it would end up when played back without having to mess with the SRA (but it will provide it).

Now, it's nice to know why that works that way, and thats a concept that could probably use some more face time here, but it's not technically needed as long as you can fire up that site.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on August 04, 2013, 05:49:53 PM
Hmm, I guess I need to go study the SZ paper again.  I was under the assumption that ORTF would actually pickup less room sound becuase while the mic angle is widest of the 3 arrangements, its SRA is narrowest.  This is the part of the SZ paper that took me the longest to wrap my head around, and maybe I still don't quite get it. :P

It's not intuitive. I still get confused about it and have to think it though at times, but this is how I think about a basic dichotomy going on with mic configurations- there are two separate primary aspects: The combined polar pattern of the mic pair and the stereo playback imaging it produces.  The Stereo Zoom addresses the playback imaging part directly, what it doesn't address directly but one of the important things which changes when selecting between different Stereo Zoom configurations with equivalent SRAs, is the combined directional sensitivity of the two microphone patterns which effects sound arriving from outside the SRA.  It's not the polar plot for a single mic, but the combination of two in that specific arrangement, covering the region where the two patterns overlap enough to produce stereo imaging (the stereo zoom region), but also including large areas of sensitivity outside of the SRA 'frame' which crops the playback image window between speakers. And it's that region where much of the sonic reflections, audience reaction, cooks in the kitchen, and reverberant information is coming from.

There are also other aspects that change when switching between different configurations which produce same SRA, such as the specifics of the distribution of individual sound sources within the SRA window- whether they are spaced evenly across the playback window in the same relationship as they were at the recording session or clumped towards either speaker towards the edges, but that is of secondary importance to how the combined polar pattern effects the ambient pickup of sound arriving from outside to the SRA window.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Ultfris101 on October 04, 2013, 09:01:36 AM
One of my favorite performances and recordings from Classical Revolution RVA so far: Heiliger Dankegesang

https://archive.org/details/classicalrevrva2013-08-21.pairs.mk5.tb.r-44.flac16

Source: Schoeps MK5c(DIN,~7ft) > Naiant Tinybox > Edirol R-44 > wav@24bit/48kHz
Lineage: wav@24bit/48kHz > Audacity (comp) > wav@16bit/44.1kHz > TLH > FLAC 6

Tracklist:

01 Intro
02 Sicut Cervus
03 Heiliger Dankegesang
04 Outro

Total: 27:01



Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina (1525-1594) – Sicut Cervus arranged for string quartet by M. Kamada

Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827) – String Quartet in a minor, op. 132, III. Molto adagio – Andante – molto adagio – Andante – molto adagio (Heiliger Dankegesang)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: dean on October 04, 2013, 01:45:47 PM
One of my favorite performances and recordings from Classical Revolution RVA so far: Heiliger Dankegesang

https://archive.org/details/classicalrevrva2013-08-21.pairs.mk5.tb.r-44.flac16

Source: Schoeps MK5c(DIN,~7ft) > Naiant Tinybox > Edirol R-44 > wav@24bit/48kHz
Lineage: wav@24bit/48kHz > Audacity (comp) > wav@16bit/44.1kHz > TLH > FLAC 6

Tracklist:

01 Intro
02 Sicut Cervus
03 Heiliger Dankegesang
04 Outro

Total: 27:01



Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina (1525-1594) – Sicut Cervus arranged for string quartet by M. Kamada

Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827) – String Quartet in a minor, op. 132, III. Molto adagio – Andante – molto adagio – Andante – molto adagio (Heiliger Dankegesang)

This is excellent.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: ilduclo on October 19, 2013, 04:42:56 PM
just recorded Seshadri/Vyas sitar/tabla duets at a place with marvelous acoustics using dpa 4061's. Just a great clear sound, unfortunately I had this loud woman behind me talking and groaning at times. She shut up when I gave her the look. A bad audience member can really affect the recording >:(
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: NorseHorse on October 19, 2013, 08:55:01 PM
Some jazz musicians hate sound reinforcement too  ;D  Ask Lee Konitz about that sometime... or maybe not if you're the one who wants to set up mics.   :facepalm:

So does Konitz get worked up if you only want to send mics signal to a recorder and not a PA?

Actually, he doesn't really like to see mics much at all.   ::)  Here's my recording of Lee performing at the Atlas Performing Arts Center in Washington DC with Brad Linde and co: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9mymH_Y7TU  BombDiggity might remember Lee grumping at me when I went up to adjust the mic for this piece.  You gotta do what ya gotta do.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: bombdiggity on October 19, 2013, 10:47:28 PM
Some jazz musicians hate sound reinforcement too  ;D  Ask Lee Konitz about that sometime... or maybe not if you're the one who wants to set up mics.   :facepalm:

So does Konitz get worked up if you only want to send mics signal to a recorder and not a PA?

Actually, he doesn't really like to see mics much at all.   ::)  Here's my recording of Lee performing at the Atlas Performing Arts Center in Washington DC with Brad Linde and co: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9mymH_Y7TU  BombDiggity might remember Lee grumping at me when I went up to adjust the mic for this piece.  You gotta do what ya gotta do.

LOL.  I was surprised he said OK to all that (though maybe wasn't entirely aware what he was walking into that night).  It was a special performance though so he probably wanted it documented if it worked out (which it certainly did). 

He hates mics, especially for sound reinforcement, though doesn't like them for recording much either...  but on the other hand the one night he said not to record he asked if it was recorded after the show was over.  I think he feels they're distracting (and maybe make him self-conscious).  He is notorious for playing off mic (even on his own official live recording dates).  Definitely of the ambient school. 
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on October 20, 2013, 10:34:23 PM
Lee performing at the Atlas Performing Arts Center in Washington DC with Brad Linde and co.

Well done.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: jnorman on October 28, 2013, 11:57:44 AM
all - i just finished doing a CD project for a local composer, with piano, soprano, and flute.  the vocalist was one of the best musicians i have ever worked with.  the CD was recorded live in my studio - ORTF km184s mains, C414b-uls vocal spot, KM183s piano spots.  i would appreciate any comments from my fellow TS'ers.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Now-Today-Will-Sing-Sappho/dp/B00FBX2QKS
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: voltronic on October 13, 2014, 09:17:41 PM
Here are a few samples of things I've recorded in the past week using my CM3s in the community-preferred NOS array (at least on GS that is).  I continue to be impressed by these mics, especially for the price.

First two are a chamber choir concert I sang in last weekend - very small church but nice acoustics.  This is an auditioned but amateur group.  Choir and piano at one corner of modern squarish church, CM3s 10ft up behind conductor, about 10-15ft closer to ensemble than exact center of room.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wtwukenlb4mbls6/08.%2008%20Ubi%20Caritas.mp3?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/wtwukenlb4mbls6/08.%2008%20Ubi%20Caritas.mp3?dl=0)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nq76h66a5mhw15s/09.%2009%20Ziegeunerlieder.mp3?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/nq76h66a5mhw15s/09.%2009%20Ziegeunerlieder.mp3?dl=0)

Last one is solo piano (me) in a large high school auditorium. Mics are behind center orchestra seats, about 20ft forward of balcony overhang. Please excuse my errors in the fugue. Also, I had to run this one through RX noise removal because of the massive A/C blowers in there.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o71p41pl8dm9oyb/10%20Shostakovich%20Op%2087%20No%2015.mp3?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/o71p41pl8dm9oyb/10%20Shostakovich%20Op%2087%20No%2015.mp3?dl=0)

For both concerts, the lineage was CM3 > Shure FP24 > Sony PCM-M10.

Curious to hear feedback from you good people.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: bombdiggity on October 14, 2014, 12:34:18 PM
^ I remain fairly impressed.  Given that much of what I record involves electric bass and drums I'm curious about the results with a full low end. 

I'm debating sending my V's to the factory for a cleaning/maintenance/check up so am casting about for whether I might need something else while they're out.  So I remain tempted but perhaps closer... 
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: 2manyrocks on October 14, 2014, 12:37:12 PM
For me, the piano sounds too distant.   For some reason, I automatically think of positioning the CM3's just outside the lid (up) near the curve of a grand piano instead of out in the auditorium.  Or one in the curve and the other at the tail. 

There's an awesome piano recording in the CM3 thread at GS and another one of a smallish console piano in a WWII barracks or warehouse in another thread over there. The console sounded larger than it actually was when it was finally revealed what it was.   You've probably already searched them out, but I will put up the links if needed. 

Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: voltronic on October 14, 2014, 05:08:45 PM
For me, the piano sounds too distant.   For some reason, I automatically think of positioning the CM3's just outside the lid (up) near the curve of a grand piano instead of out in the auditorium.  Or one in the curve and the other at the tail. 

There's an awesome piano recording in the CM3 thread at GS and another one of a smallish console piano in a WWII barracks or warehouse in another thread over there. The console sounded larger than it actually was when it was finally revealed what it was.   You've probably already searched them out, but I will put up the links if needed.

The GS thread is what sold me on buying these mics, so yes I know the samples you're talking about.

For the piano recording, I completely agree that it is too distant, but my placement was dictated by local TV coverage - they wouldn't allow my mics to be in the shot so that's as close as I could get.  Stage lip would not work in this instance either because it was a recital of various ensembles in different configurations, so I needed to go a bit farther back anyway to get a decent balance with the concert overall.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: 2manyrocks on October 14, 2014, 05:13:03 PM
An artist such as yourself should be able to command whatever mic placement he wants. 
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: voltronic on October 14, 2014, 05:34:12 PM
^ I remain fairly impressed.  Given that much of what I record involves electric bass and drums I'm curious about the results with a full low end. 

I'm debating sending my V's to the factory for a cleaning/maintenance/check up so am casting about for whether I might need something else while they're out.  So I remain tempted but perhaps closer...

On the GS thread 2manyrocks referenced, there are some samples where the CM3 compares pretty favorably to the MK21 subcard (not MK4 as that's a true cardioid).  Here's a couple piano solo shootouts one board member did:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/product-alerts-older-than-2-months/52519-line-audio-design-cm3.html#post6716883 (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/product-alerts-older-than-2-months/52519-line-audio-design-cm3.html#post6716883)
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/650884-sdc-acoustic-guitar.html#post7062692 (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/650884-sdc-acoustic-guitar.html#post7062692)

Not much I record has a lot of bass, but here's an organ solo (although soft) from that same choir concert.  Again, a very tiny church so a similarly sized organ.  The CM3s certainly don't have the low end of omnis, but you can hear they get quite a bit of the bass:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4g6t7gbkhkn7tnd/10.%2010%20Mendelssohn.mp3?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/4g6t7gbkhkn7tnd/10.%2010%20Mendelssohn.mp3?dl=0)

If you really want to here what these can do though, check this out. - I've posted the album below elsewhere here before.  I've spoken with the bass player and he assured me the whole thing was done with just one pair of CM3s (close overhead array) straight into a SD 702.
http://elswhr.co/projects/lumiere (http://elswhr.co/projects/lumiere)
http://elswhr.co/blog/photos-from-lumiere-recording-session (http://elswhr.co/blog/photos-from-lumiere-recording-session)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: voltronic on October 14, 2014, 05:39:01 PM
An artist such as yourself should be able to command whatever mic placement he wants.
Well thanks, but this wasn't the "me" show - there was lots of other stuff going on and I needed to make sure I could get it all.  Plus, the TV people were doing us a favor covering the event and also a very professional job of running our lights and PA, so I was more than happy to compromise with them.  All that considered, they gave me the exact placement I asked for - even though I knew it wouldn't be optimal for my particular part of the concert.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on October 14, 2014, 09:04:15 PM
The sample of that first choral piece you posted is fantastic.

Piano is often just plain difficult to get sounding right, IME.  It so often suffers from either sounding distant with not enough direct attack and dynamics, or is too dry, close and flat sounding without body, and often weird peaks in the midrange.  Of course, maybe I'm just not that good at recording it well.

Thanks for sharing samples of your playing, that's quite a piece to tackle!

Haven't listened to the GS samples (haven't spent much time there in a long while). Post a link to those CM3 samples over there if it's not a hassle.  I'll be out for about a week, but will give them a listen when I get a chance.  I do like what I hear from the CM3s.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: bombdiggity on October 15, 2014, 11:16:44 AM
While piano and voice may be difficult they don't really give a full range when compared to what is needed for a band (bass and drums).  Nevertheless I suspect these would give a reasonable representation of that end without being overwhelmed or overemphasizing those aspects (the two main issues likely to crop up with any mics).  The tone seems good.  that's what I'm most concerned with. 

I don't need or expect them to be better than Schoeps (and they're not based on the GS samples, which while they sound good do not convey the same nuances).  I'd just want to like them more than the SP CMC-25's or Naks that are my backups...   As far as my taste and type of recording I really haven't run across anything small and inexpensive I like better than the CMC-25's (though perhaps a little thin as small cards are prone to be that works in their favor with the low end in less than ideal situations/distances and since the tone is good across the range a little eq can bring back the bass to taste).  These are larger but seem like they may offer some utility in situations where I'd want to fly something and may give a more balanced representation out of the box in some circumstances. 
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: bombdiggity on October 15, 2014, 02:05:21 PM
Piano goes plenty low, at least if it's a grand.  On a spinet or baby grand the fundamental of the lowest notes is not prominent, but on a 9' grand it's much better.  Lowest note on a piano is A0, which is 27.5Hz, and a step below the low note on a five-string bass (unless detuned).

I recognize that but also that the dynamics and balance are not the same as among a band within a typical room.  On a piano the whole range is fundamentally balanced. 

In a live music setting with several instruments and a little distance you can pretty soon be dealing with a heavy predominance of reverberating drums and bass and might not even hear an accompanying piano in the same range.  The tone of the mics is very important across the range but the stability or predictability across the range maybe more so.  Many mics just sound like crap once you move them into that sort of setting, though that may be a lot less apparent on a recording of solo piano up close where a lot less is going on at the same time.  Piano can be a good test of the general tone though. 
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: 2manyrocks on October 15, 2014, 02:28:52 PM
I've used CM3s to record speeches, choirs and piano, and found them to record a smooth, pleasing sound in each instance.  I don't have Schoeps to compare them with, but I have read others comment that higher end mics do give more details.  With amateur choirs generally, a little rounding off can be a good thing. 

Getting an enjoyable piano recording is not an easy task.   So many pianos are poorly maintained and placed in terrible rooms to start with.  A well tuned piano in a good room will reveal shortcomings in a microphone pretty quickly, IMO.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on October 15, 2014, 03:51:31 PM
The thing about bass and drums with PA amplified bands is that part of the spectrum is often over-emphasized by the PA system, the mix EQ or a combination of the two, and is sometimes aggravated by the room acoustics.  In moderate amounts that emphasis is enjoyable.  But so often it's either simply too much or just tends to muddy up the rest of the recording.  In that situation, mics with a downward sloping low-frequency response can help compensate by having a response curve that resembles something of an inverse of that response.  Sometimes that inverse curve works well for fixing the problem, sometimes it doesn't, but in general it often works to clean things up.  Consider a flat measurement mic used for recording a subwoofer-heavy band in an overly reverberant bar mixed for the sensation of chest slam feel. In that situation the raw recording may well sound dull and bloated, but it would be 'accurate'.

By contrast I find that recordings of acoustic music in good rooms often benefit from boosting the bottom somewhat, even when using pressure omnis which remain flat to the bottom octave regardless of distance.  It may not be technically accurate to do that, but it sounds good in moderation, doesn't clutter things up with bloat, and often increases the nice long-reverberant ambient immerseve feel of acoustic music recordings made in good sounding rooms.  One aspect that makes halls for acoustic music 'good sounding' is longer reverberant times at low frequencies and shorter reverberant times as the frequency increases.  It's sort of the same thing and acoustically reinforces the bottom and heft of the music.  It also makes those rooms more difficult to use for music with PA amplified bass and drums, which do better when the reverb-time at low-frequencies is shorter.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on October 15, 2014, 04:34:53 PM
Agreed. 

And I'll note that the room itself is one of those mechanical resonant systems.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: voltronic on October 15, 2014, 06:20:07 PM
I've used CM3s to record speeches, choirs and piano, and found them to record a smooth, pleasing sound in each instance.  I don't have Schoeps to compare them with, but I have read others comment that higher end mics do give more details.  With amateur choirs generally, a little rounding off can be a good thing. 

Getting an enjoyable piano recording is not an easy task.   So many pianos are poorly maintained and placed in terrible rooms to start with.  A well tuned piano in a good room will reveal shortcomings in a microphone pretty quickly, IMO.

One of the reasons I bought them, and what I've come to really enjoy about using them, is that they have very good off-axis response and have less roll-off at distance than regular cardioids.  Because of these factors I've found them pretty easy to find a placement where you can get a good sound, even if they aren't going to grab Schoeps-like levels of detail.

And yes, piano recording is not easy, even on a full size concert grand that is perfectly maintained.  The one in my sample was a Steinway D, but it's suffered over 50 years of school abuse without anything really beyond a few yearly tunings, so it sounds pretty hollow and lifeless for an instrument of its size until you really drive it hard.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on October 15, 2014, 07:45:21 PM
Not sure where non-linearity entered the conversation.  Maybe diggity's comments about change of mic behavior with dynamics?  I don't see that happening with properly operating microphones until overload, or beneath the limits of their sensitivity, but I do find that to be the case (or maybe I just mis-characterizing it as such) acoustically down in the modal region of a room, which is what I was trying to get at.  The room seems to saturate at a certain high enough bass level.

One thing which is not linear is our hearing.  I hear distortions during loud sustained massed chorus sections which I know is in my ear.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: voltronic on October 15, 2014, 08:24:23 PM
By contrast I find that recordings of acoustic music in good rooms often benefit from boosting the bottom somewhat, even when using pressure omnis which remain flat to the bottom octave regardless of distance.  It may not be technically accurate to do that, but it sounds good in moderation, doesn't clutter things up with bloat, and often increases the nice long-reverberant ambient immerseve feel of acoustic music recordings made in good sounding rooms.  One aspect that makes halls for acoustic music 'good sounding' is longer reverberant times at low frequencies and shorter reverberant times as the frequency increases.  It's sort of the same thing and acoustically reinforces the bottom and heft of the music.  It also makes those rooms more difficult to use for music with PA amplified bass and drums, which do better when the reverb-time at low-frequencies is shorter.

I would love to try this out, but 9 times out of 10 that I'm recording quiet music in a nice church or concert hall, there is significant A/C noise and I have to either do some noise removal or a steep high pass filter in post to knock it down.  The choir concert I posted samples of, I got lucky - the A/C was on off cycle for probably 3/4 of the concert, meaning we were sweating but most of the recording came out clean. 

Perhaps I could try a very gentle wide-Q low boost after applying the high pass filter, but I get good enough results after tweaking iZotope RX that I never felt the need.

Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on October 15, 2014, 09:43:11 PM
HVAC noise sucks.  I sometimes record some small ensemble chamber music with excellent musicians but the small room they perform in is acoustically horrible. The worst of it is that they are totally swamped in horrendously loud HVAC noise and the vents in the low drop ceiling directly overhead rattle intermittently like crazy.  I've suggested running it hard beforehand to cool down the room enough that It could be turned off just prior to the performance, but things are always rushed and this is Florida so it's often an uphill battle with the heat and humidity to begin with.  Ironically just before intermission, the room sometimes cools down enough that the HAVC turns off for a while, though never long enough for an entire piece.  Then during intermission the french doors along two walls to outdoor patios are opened and once closed again for the second part, it's back to running hard again the entire time.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: 2manyrocks on October 15, 2014, 11:54:14 PM
I believe the choir recording sounds great. 

I wonder if you could fill us in on the composition of the choir? 

Mrs. Rocks conducts a teen choir.  Depending on who shows up, there might or might not be much bass to be had at some of their performances. 

Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: voltronic on October 16, 2014, 06:19:16 AM
It's about 20-25 singers depending on the performance, auditioned from the large main choir, but like I said an amateur group.  3 of us are professional musicians.  For this concert we had 5 sopranos, 5 altos, 4 tenors and 6 basses.  We changed formations a several times through the concert - I honestly can't remember exactly which we were in for the two pieces I posted.

I feel your wife's pain.  I am now an elementary choir director, but formerly I was with middle school where some of the boys would only have a range of about a fifth to work with for a little while.  Ahh, hormones.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: 2manyrocks on October 16, 2014, 10:23:19 AM
It seems that by the time the young men's voices, what precious few of them there are, get through puberty, they suddenly graduate.  That being said, I was moved to hear one of my wife's former elementary choir male students more than hold his own as an adult soloist in an evening concert a few months ago amid several talented other soloists. 

I would like to try the CM3's as a main pair with omni flanks; however, I am completely confused about the proper spacing of the omnis.  I seem to recall that DPA recommends an 18" spread of the 4061s, and yet I read that others are spreading them further out. 

Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on October 16, 2014, 11:29:54 AM
Safe to can go wide with the omnis if you have a main pair in the center.

The sengpielaudio on-line microphone setup virtuallizer can help for an omni pair alone- http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Visualization-AB60-E.htm

Recent TS thread on omni spacing- (mostly outdoor recording)- http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=168749.msg2097953#msg2097953

Heading out the door, foff-line for about 5 days..

Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: 2manyrocks on October 21, 2014, 10:49:12 AM
Thanks.  Reading those links and http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=1625.msg2037866#msg2037866, my next question moves from how wide to how tall? 

I wouldn't have thought that it was possible to get a recording like that from mics positioned on the stage in that configuration.  I suppose when the sound source is guitar amps and a drum kit not more than 3 or 4 feet off the stage, the mics are really closest to the source source when positioned just off the stage at an equivalent height?

In recording a choir, do you sort of aim at the back row of the choir and that establishes the height where the mics should be placed? 

More specifically, if I wanted to attempt having two omnis spread out at 6' and two cards 20" apart front/back, should the mics be parallel with the stage or angled towards the sound source?
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on October 21, 2014, 12:57:10 PM
Well, that setup in the link you posted was for a very different situation- a small-format jazz trio playing in a small room rather than a choir in a hall.  In that situation I got good proximity to the sources as well as effectively eliminating reflections off the floor by positioning the microphones directly at floor level.

For a large distributed source like a choir, the typical setup is microphones spaced across the front of the choir.  The important factors determining placement will be finding a good direct to reverberant balance, getting a good representation of all singers throughout the entire the choir, achieving an appropriate blend where single voices aren't overly emphasized, and avoiding pickup of unwanted sound sources.  There isn't really the goal of achieving sharp imaging in a typical stereo sense, it's more the sense of massed voices, blending together with a good spatial sense and a large enveloping presentation.

With a typical choir setup of rows of singers in tiers, a number of spaced microphones hanging above and in front the choir usually achieves all that, with the appropriate pattern for a good direct/reverberant balance determined by the room and whatever else is being recorded.   You can lower the direct/reverberant ratio by moving away, moving up, changing to a less directional microphone pattern, or combinations of those things.. and do it keeping in mind how each change affects the other aspects.

For a choir I'd probably first consider using just a spaced pair.  Omnis an obvious choice, the CM3's if you needed a bit less reverberant room sound, or a spaced pair of cardioids if you needed even less.  A spaced pair, or three or four, achieves a somewhat a more similar path length to the singers who are farthest away rather than highlighting those closest to a near-spaced pair in the center.

It's when there are other sound sources or instruments in addition to the choir that you need to add other microphones or pairs, or adapt the setup which is focused on recording the choir to pickup everything appropriately.

The 6' spaced omnis plus center cardioid(s) setup is a main mic setup which sort of uses the center card sort of for direct-sound center focus, with the omnis providing a big, enveloping sense of space and ambience.  The center card may highlight singers in the center if the setup is close to the choir, which might be good or bad.  For something like chorus plus piano, if the array can be placed appropriately that directional center cardioid can provide some increased direct sound from the piano which you might want.   I use that 6' omnis with center cardioid arrangement because it works well for most things outdoors or inside in a good sounding room when recording from somewhere around the sweet-spot of the room.

But I'd suggest going with what you know to start and branch out from that.  For chorus, maybe a near-spaced pair of  the CM3s plus a somewhat wider spacing of omnis (I dunno, maybe omnis something like 8'-12' apart, with the CM3 pair in the middle).  That way you know you can use the CM3 pair alone and it will work.  You can listen to the omni-pair alone to see what how well that works, and the wide spacing of the omnis might work very well for a choir.  The combination of both pairs may be even better.  Conceptually that's sort of "nearspaced CM3s as primary pair plus wide-spaced omnis as secondary support."

If find you need more direct sound without sacrificing too much of the big openness of the spaced omnis, you can try the single center facing cardioid between the 4' to 6' spaced omnis.  That's more of a dedicated array, as you would't use the center cardioid alone in isolation without the omnis. Conceptually its sort of "spaced omnis as primary pair plus center cardioid as secondary support."

Since we were talking about low-frequency balance previously-  Microphone height also effects the bottom end response.  Farther from a surface the bottom end becomes less reinforced via boundary effect.  That's easily heard at amplified concerts where sitting on the ground is super boomy even compared to standing (ignoring the muffle effect of bodies blocking midrange and treble), and mics raised high are still less effected by and over-emphasized low end.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: 2manyrocks on October 21, 2014, 05:02:29 PM
You could probably tell from the way I asked that I was confusing myself.  Thanks for getting me headed back in the right direction.

I'm still amazed at your jazz trio recording.  It's so clear. 
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on October 21, 2014, 05:46:48 PM
Thanks.  That was sort of a very-quick trial run session actually.  No listening on setup, just guess and go like concert taping and they just ran through numbers one after the other like a live date.  They did end up making a CD from it that the principle artist of the trio sells at their gigs.  We did a similar session that I think was much better, both in sound and the overall performance, and they shot some video at the same time, but we sort of lost momentum on the project.  I still need to mix that one down for them.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: voltronic on January 29, 2015, 10:29:34 PM
I had the opportunity to record a HS wind ensemble the other night.  This was just a session of some quick takes in an empty hall to possibly use for a recorded audition.  The director already had 2 other mic arrays running in the center orchestra section of the hall when I got there (AKG C214s and Schoeps MK4/MK8 in M/S).  So I decided to give him a close-miked perspective for contrast using my CM3s, and that's what I'm posting here.  I unfortunately do not have access to the other recordings right now as it wasn't my rig.

CM3 > FP24 > M10.  Mics on stage directly behind conductor, 12ft up and angled slightly downward in NOS spacing.  No post processing other than a 3dB level adjustment on the second track to compensate for my over-cautious lowering of the preamp gain before recording it.

I'm not fully satisfied with this recording, and can't quite put my finger on why.  I expected a very dry sound, but something about the imaging seems off.  I have used this placement with good results for choirs in the past, but this was my first time trying it with an instrumental group.  I also had to set up in about 5 minutes, so I had no time to really walk around and listen for the best placement.  NOS usually sounds great with these mics on everything else I've done, but maybe it's a bit too wide for the very close perspective.  My DIY NOS rig is the only way I can easily do a slight downward angle right now until I pick up one of those neat Posi-Lok clutches.  Thoughts or suggestions?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tp003e4v940b6o1/01%20Take%2003.mp3?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/tp003e4v940b6o1/01%20Take%2003.mp3?dl=0)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5z3m6a7n9ecr26m/02%20Take%2002.mp3?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/5z3m6a7n9ecr26m/02%20Take%2002.mp3?dl=0)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Ultfris101 on January 30, 2015, 12:07:30 AM
Have you tried ORTF and found you didn't like it? I'm still learning but I've been very happy with my mk5's in that config when I'm up close to a chamber quartet or something similar.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Tom McCreadie on January 30, 2015, 05:51:03 AM
What angle was your NOS array subtending to the edges of the ensemble? .
I'm sensing a mild bunching towards the L and R speakers, with a slight emptiness or lack of solidity in the centre. Recall that the SRA for NOS is fairly narrow at ~ 81°, so perhaps you went too close? (although such imaging could result from how the band chose to line up...deep U-shaped arc vs. flat line etc).
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: voltronic on January 30, 2015, 06:45:52 AM
What angle was your NOS array subtending to the edges of the ensemble? .
I'm sensing a mild bunching towards the L and R speakers, with a slight emptiness or lack of solidity in the centre. Recall that the SRA for NOS is fairly narrow at ~ 81°, so perhaps you went too close? (although such imaging could result from how the band chose to line up...deep U-shaped arc vs. flat line etc).

The edges of the ensemble were well beyond the outer angle of the mics.

The lack of center pretty much describes what I'm hearing as well.  The band was generally arranged in large semicircular rows with the players evenly spaced. 

Regarding SRA, the CM3 is really a subcard pattern so you have to redo the SRA calculations with that in mind.  In this case, a NOS spacing yields an SRA of 104°.  I had thought that my high elevation would create enough distance from the ensemble for it to image properly, but clearly it didn't.  DIN would give me 145.7° SRA which may have been a better choice in this situation.  ORTF would give almost the same thing - 146.4°.  Once I have the means to angle my regular adjustable mic bar downwards, I might try one of those in the future.  But as I said, I was pressed for time and my fixed NOS mount was the only option at the time if I wanted the high perspective.  NOS has up to this point been my "default" spacing with this mic, as DIN is when I use regular cardiods - it tends to give me a nice image most of the time.  But in this case, this was my first time recording from this close to an ensemble.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Ultfris101 on January 30, 2015, 10:04:19 AM
I didn't realize the CM3s were subcards. I was figuring standard cards.

  Ah, there it is (from the website): "Polar pattern: Cardioid (slightly wide/semi wide cardioid)"

As has been pointed out to me a few times, ORTF requires small diaphragm condenser cardioids or it's not technically ORTF  :P

I'm usually in fairly close quarters so used ORTF a lot. I like the way it can add some warmth and openness which I attribute to the wide angle while still getting a good image by being so narrow. I ran DIN last week and initial sampling sounds pretty good but is more in your face compared to ORTF in my opinion. I'll have to give NOS a shot.  I also used to do most of my mixing and listening on headphones but recently added monitors so my view on stereo imaging is changing.

But then again I've also found I liked using ORTF outdoors at a rock festival recording at the soundboard. I may just have an obsession with it for some reason. DIN feels too narrow and in your face to me.

The group is organizing a Mozart Festival on 3/1 around town for the second year. Should be a good opportunity to try a few different setups.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Ultfris101 on January 30, 2015, 10:37:38 AM
I'm expanding my playback/mixing system with some monitors and a sub (JBL LSR305 and LSR310s to be specific). Does anybody have a short list of readily available classical recordings you would consider references to help dial in a mixing station?

I think what I'm looking for is examples which at least somewhat objectively have good stereo imaging, tonal range, etc.

I can pick some and listen and decide what I like and don't but I'd like to get an idea what others with more experience in this area like so I can compare to what I'm hearing.

thanks for any thoughts you have.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on January 30, 2015, 11:27:58 AM
Don't underestimate the influence of the vertical angle of the microphone array when it is placed above the ensemble 'looking down', especially if using cardioids or near-cardioids.  The SRA width changes with vertical arrival angle for any array which uses angled directional microphones.  Also, using different microphone setups, the nature of the way in which sounds arriving from outside of the SRA are reproduced changes, in ways which are unrelated to the stereo imaging within the SRA. 

With some setups the sounds from outside the SRA are mostly reproduced as hard panned monophonic sources positioned at one speaker or the other.  With others those sounds are distributed between the speakers, or reproduced with inverse phase differences that push those sounds somewhat outside the speakers.   The irony is that the setups which reproduce that stuff arriving from outside the SRA as hard-panned monophonic sound eminating direclty from each speaker, can have something of a 'hole in the middle' even though the revererant information is not overly spacious sounding.

Not enough time to explain in more depth, but there is some relevance to this 2008 TS thread-
 
Why Blumlein sounds more spacious than other coincident or near-so arrays (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=110861.msg1480342#msg1480342)

Some discussion of the change with vertical arrival angle is here in that same thread (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=110861.msg1646428#msg1646428). The Geoff Marin paper I linked in that post is the one which really analyzes the changes due to vertical-angle of arrival to a stereo pair, but that link appears to be dead.  That paper is titled: General Response Characteristics of Microphone Configurations.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: voltronic on January 30, 2015, 11:28:38 AM
The CM3 is usually compared to the Schoeps MK22 as their specs are very similar, though I don't think anyone would claim they are equal in performance.  I can't afford Schoeps though, and I think the CM3s get at least close in performance level.

For classical recordings, I would recommend any recent recordings done by Linn Records, particularly anything with the Dunedin Consort.  Absolutely superlative performances and recordings.  Also, the BIS label still continues to be my standard for excellent recordings.  See if you can find their older recording of Schnittke's Faust Cantata to really see what your system can do.  Try eclassical.com to purchase downloads of their stuff.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on January 30, 2015, 11:50:33 AM
Classical recording methods vary widely, and one can find good examples of each as references of what can be done generally, how they sound in an overall sense and in comparison with each other.  But using a fantastic sounding recording made with lots of microphones may not be an appropriate benchmark for comparison with the two microphone stereo recordings most around here are making, and most modern classical commercial recordings are made that way, for large ensembles at least.

For some excellent recordings made using simple two-microphone only techniques, including large ensemble classical stuff, you might check out some of Kavi Alexander's recordings on the Water Lily Acoustics label.  I love the recordings of his I've heard such as his Grammy wining "A Meeting by the River" with Ry Cooder & V.M. Bhatt, and have been meaning to check out his well regarded two-microphone symphonic recordings as well. He's recording style is closer to the ways we do it than most classical recording engineers.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: 2manyrocks on January 30, 2015, 12:53:28 PM
I suspect the sound from a choir would project differently than the sound from woodwinds.  That is, I would expect the woodwinds to be more directional?  I'm thinking clarinet horns would face at an angle towards the stage, for example vs. the more outward projection of a choir. 

So far as two mic recording is concerned, Rolo keeps knocking it out of the park on GS with his two Senns and SD702. 

I have recommendation after recommendation to use isolating headphones or earbuds to determine the final positioning of mics in classical recording.  I think you can only get so far with SRA calculations. 

that being said, I suspect one has to set up the mics and experiment with positions to nail this down until you accumulate so much experience that it becomes second nature.  Of course, I am not there by any means. 

Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: voltronic on January 30, 2015, 05:34:17 PM
I didn't consider Ulfris was looking for 2-channel recording specifically, just the best available regardless of method... at any rate here's the Schnittke recording I love so much: http://www.eclassical.com/labels/bis/schnittke-faust-cantata-1.html (http://www.eclassical.com/labels/bis/schnittke-faust-cantata-1.html)

In any case, for "minimalist" classical I would also recommend the DTR label, a small label near my neck of the woods.  The website is very, very basic but the recordings are excellent.  If you read the info, their whole aim is to recreate the natural, live concert experience.  I met the proprietor at a session once, and he told me that for most everything he just uses one pair of Earthworks omnis into a Sound Devices recorder (I don't remember the exact model, but I'm certain it was a 7-series).  This was quite a while ago - he may have upgraded since then.

For example, here's an extremely natural piano sound, and I was pleasantly surprised to find that the pianist was my private teacher in college!
http://www.dtrmusic.com/2001cd.html (http://www.dtrmusic.com/2001cd.html)

Good organ example:
http://www.dtrmusic.com/2011CD.html (http://www.dtrmusic.com/2011CD.html)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on February 02, 2015, 09:49:25 AM
Didn't mean to pigeon-hole recommendations around specific recording techniques, just pointing out a potentially relevant aspect when using them as a basis of comparison with our recordings.

Thanks for the suggestions and links.

I've long been curious to hear some of the piano recordings of James Boyk, given what I've read of his writing on the subject, but have never sought them out.
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: voltronic on February 02, 2015, 08:02:16 PM
Didn't mean to pigeon-hole recommendations around specific recording techniques, just pointing out a potentially relevant aspect when using them as a basis of comparison with our recordings.

Thanks for the suggestions and links.

I've long been curious to hear some of the piano recordings of James Boyk, given what I've read of his writing on the subject, but have never sought them out.

I wasn't suggesting that you were.  Your line of thinking makes total sense given what this board is about, but at the time Ulfris was asking about good recordings, my brain just spewed out the best-sounding classical albums I can think of.

Interesting that you mention James Boyk.  I sometimes show Music Animation Machine videos as teaching tools with my students, and this is a one I have used often that features an excellent Debussy performance of his:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJDlqCX8Qrk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJDlqCX8Qrk)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Ultfris101 on February 02, 2015, 08:13:13 PM
thanks guys. I had in mind great sounding recordings of great performances however they were made. But good examples of two mic/minimalist recording is helpful too.

I want to get a feel for what good recordings sound like on my system and then can ultimately compare to my own recordings to see what's working.

Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: DSatz on February 05, 2015, 07:21:03 PM
I greatly admire the recordings of Marc Aubort. One CD that I often use when checking out a stereo playback system is a set of recordings of music by Busoni with Michael Gielen conducting the Cinncinnati Symphony Orchestra (Vox Cum Laude MCD 10019).

It may be out of print, but I see a number of copies available on a certain well-known Web site with the same name as a big river in South America.

--best regards
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: voltronic on August 08, 2015, 10:32:18 AM
Broadcast / recording setup for BBC Proms:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov14/articles/proms.htm (http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov14/articles/proms.htm)
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: bombdiggity on September 19, 2015, 04:30:16 PM
Something to listen to if any are inclined.  The biggest "band" I've ever recorded (the N S O). I wonder what the Schoeps might have gotten in this, but I didn't think they'd be practical and it turned out that the audience was fully lit. I'm very happy with this anyway.  One rap on this room is it doesn't usually sound too good but for this music it was designed for from up close I thought it sounded very nice.

Will be deleted on
26 September, 2015

Download link
http://we.tl/Ozn7B7McTQ
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: OhioHead on September 25, 2015, 10:53:57 PM
Hey gang assuming you got permission from the local band director (copy right a side), if u only had 2 LD's would you tape 5 or so feet back of the director w/ card's a bit wide to pick everything up (audio)?
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on February 02, 2016, 12:43:06 PM
Hi OhioHead,

Unfortunately it looks like your post went neglected 4 months back.  Sorry about that.  If still interested, try posting in the new Team Classical and Camber Music thread at the link below..
Title: Re: Team classical recording
Post by: Gutbucket on February 02, 2016, 12:44:33 PM
Locking this thread at page 24.  The classical music recording discussion continues in a new thread over in the Team Boards section: Team Classical and Chamber Music-
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=176244.msg2174981#msg2174981 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=176244.msg2174981#msg2174981)