Topic: Mix Pre vs Mini MP

[cavernut]

Two options i am considering are the the well loved Apogee Mini MP, that as we all know is discontinued, but several of you have very well taken care of units still available for sale from time to time.

And the Sound Designs Mix Pre, witch claims it is a Studio Quality Pre.

As someone who knows nothing at all about these two units, could some of you with some experience please tell me the pros and cons. Besides the fact that one is discontinued and one is new. And they will both cost me the same price.

BTW, sorry i posted this in two forums. I was trying to put it where it belongs.

[Brian Skalinder]

In scanning recent posts, you're kind of all over the place:  MixPre/Mini MP, Sound Devices 702, Grace Design Luantec V3, Microtrack II, AKG 480 series, Nagra LB, Beyerdynamic MC930s, etc.  Not a knock, as there's so much quality gear to consider!  And it's tough when starting out to get one's head around it all.

Personally, If I was just starting out, I would get a pair of good (but not terribly expensive) mics and an all-in-one preamp/ADC/recorder (like a Fostex FR-2LE).  Then just start using 'em.  Over time, you'll either find yourself satisfied with the gear, or wanting a different sound -- but if you buy decent gear to start, the results won't stink (and if they do, it's because you're doing something wrong for your particular application/scenario, not because of the gear;  remember, the person holding and setting up the gear has a greater impact on the results than the gear itself).  If you find yourself wanting a different sound, the sonic characteristics you like and/or want to change will drive the selection of future purchases, whether it's mics, preamp, ADC, etc.  This really can only be done after using the gear yourself -- listening on the Archive and elsewhere helps, but there's no substitute for using the gear yourself in local venues/locations/situations to get a feel for the sound.

I'd only buy the mics used -- really, whatever's in your budget that's available in the Yard Sale (or another used gear marketplace).  That way you won't suffer as much depreciation as new (if any at all) when changing them later.  Same goes for the FR-2LE, though since the mics have the biggest impact on the sound, you're less likely to change it if you find yourself wanting a different sound.

I know that's not much help relative to specific gear recommendations, but it almost doesn't matter at this point as long as the quality of the gear is reasonably good.  The one exception I'd even consider:  get a feel for whether you prefer bright-ish or dark-ish mics.  As a reference, many mics are on the brighter side, while the Beyerdynamic MC930's are quite dark, IMO.

[newplanet7]

EDIT for misinformation.
The MINI MP isn't being produced at Apogee but is still for sale
at many retail outlets.
http://www.birdlandmusic.net/product.php?productid=4987&src=froogle

[digifish_music]

Two options i am considering are the the well loved Apogee Mini MP, that as we all know is discontinued, but several of you have very well taken care of units still available for sale from time to time.

And the Sound Designs Mix Pre, witch claims it is a Studio Quality Pre.

As someone who knows nothing at all about these two units, could some of you with some experience please tell me the pros and cons. Besides the fact that one is discontinued and one is new. And they will both cost me the same price.

BTW, sorry i posted this in two forums. I was trying to put it where it belongs.

About the MixPre - it is a studio quality unit. It is one of the worlds quietest preamps (one of the reasons it is the darling of location/quietude recordists), is bristling with features that make it the swiss-army knife of preamps and runs on a pair of AA batteries. I use mine in and out of the studio.

That said, I agree with the idea of starting out with a FR-2LE. I use, on the other hand a R09HR + MixPre and love the flexibility this setup affords for stealth or pro recording.

digifish

[stevetoney]

I'm not much of a tech head, so the guts of these units aren't my specialty.  I can only comment on the things like user interface and, of course, the bottom line like sound output.

Mini-MP
(Contrary to a previous commenters' input, it seems that Apogee has indeed discontinued production sometime earlier this year...seems like I read that they stopped last March or April.  A check of the website shows that the mini-MX series is no longer part of their active line...see www.apogeedigital.com.)

Pros

Great warmth, smooth sound over entire range of frequecies, one of the warmest pre-amps available out of the box, runs on any voltage battery, fairly low current draw (runs quite a long time on a 9V wally world), reasonable metering, great value to price ratio (at $500 to $600 used, one of the great values in preamps), has an M/S setting although I never used it so can't really comment, some other miscellaneous controls that one might find useful but I never used for live recording.  Cosmetically, if this is important to you, the lights on the Mini-MP are very attractive and I personally love the purple base colors.

Cons

Inconvenient form factor with the long, skinny design and the hardware on the end, if you swap polarity it's dead ($100 factory fix) but shouldn't have a reason to swap polarity (I did it by accident when I was trying to diagnose a problem and thought polarity might be an issue...my bad and I learned a good lesson.), external powering required.  Connectors come out the back, meaning when you set the unit up in your bag it's resting on the cables.


Mix-Pre

Pros

Excellent metering, headphone amp, on-board powering with 2 AA batteries, small size footprint, built for suviving nuclear war, SD is one of the best customer service companys in the business.  Connectors come out the side.


Cons

Two AAs will only last between 3 and 4 hours...enough for a show but nothing longer, meter lights...even when dimmed are very bright, if it's like the MP-2, the gain controls are VERY sensitive and you can get 3 - 5 db output change with minor touching of the knobs

Unfortunately, there aren't a whole lot of mix-pre samples out on Live Music Archive.  However, the mix-pre has been stated to be tigher sounding than the MP-2.  That would be good, but subjectively stated, the mix-pre would have to be tightened up A LOT from the MP-2 before it matched the creamy awesome sound of the Mini-MP...but again that's my subjective opinion based on the MP-2.  I think that there's plenty of people out there in preamp-land that like the  MP-2 sound just fine...try as I have, unfortunately I'm just not one of them.

[cavernut]

I really do appreciate the Pro's / Con's information you are all providing.
One thing i do need to say is that i am not new to sound recording. I have actually been in live sound since 81' and i have been recording since 75'. However, I have been on the Sound reinforcement / FOH / Monitor Mix / Studio end of things. In my personal studio i have several pre's including an Avalon, unfortunately they require AC power. The other thing is all the recording and live sound i have ever done has been up close and personal. I am trying to build a rig to do audience recording, this is something i have very little to no experience with. I will also admit to having brought a reel to reel to several Dead shows back in the late 70's and hooking it up to the dual press patch rig by the soundboard. Once again I have never put mics in the air. I do currently own a Microtrack II and what i am trying to do is find a set of mics and a pre that will sound good to me. On the other hand if i was to spend $1500 on a pre like the V3, I would also consider an all in one like the SD 702 or 722. I hope i am not coming off like a butt-head to you all. I am not a spoiled kid who wants to start off on top. I am actually a guy in my late 40's who can appreciate great live recordings and also still likes bands like Ratdog, as well as local bands.

Thanks again for all the great information. And yes if Apogee sill produced the Mini ME and the Mini MP it would be a no brain-er.

[stevetoney]

Thanks again for all the great information. And yes if Apogee sill produced the Mini ME and the Mini MP it would be a no brain-er.

FWIW, I had mine serviced for the aforementioned burnout due to polarity switch and there was abolutely no questions asked, so I'd have no problem whatsoever buying used with the notion that it could be serviced if need be.

In some ways, I'm in the same situation as you are right now cavernut.  I have had alot of equipment in the last two years.  A couple months ago took a giant step backwards by trading a pair of DPA mics for a bunch of photo gear...a GREAT decision I might add.  I've since picked back up by purchasing a pair of 140s and I'm running those into a Busman 660.  I'm now contemplating running them through either a mini-ME, mini-MP, or Aerco.  All three sound great, so I just have to decide which will sound best and unfortunately, there aren't samples of all three on the Archive to listen to side-by-side, so I have to kinda be more analytical about it, which actually work has worked pretty well for me in the past.

Anyway, good luck with the search.  I find the search to be part of the fun!

Steve

[JasonSobel]

Thanks again for all the great information. And yes if Apogee sill produced the Mini ME and the Mini MP it would be a no brain-er.

FWIW, I had mine serviced for the aforementioned burnout due to polarity switch and there was abolutely no questions asked, so I'd have no problem whatsoever buying used with the notion that it could be serviced if need be.

for the time being, Apogee may still be servicing the Mini-ME and the Mini-MP.  but Apogee doesn't have the best track record for supporting/servicing legacy products (remember the AD-1000), so I think the fact that Apogee is no longer making these items is a valid concern.

[datbrad]

I really do appreciate the Pro's / Con's information you are all providing.
One thing i do need to say is that i am not new to sound recording. I have actually been in live sound since 81' and i have been recording since 75'. However, I have been on the Sound reinforcement / FOH / Monitor Mix / Studio end of things. In my personal studio i have several pre's including an Avalon, unfortunately they require AC power. The other thing is all the recording and live sound i have ever done has been up close and personal. I am trying to build a rig to do audience recording, this is something i have very little to no experience with. I will also admit to having brought a reel to reel to several Dead shows back in the late 70's and hooking it up to the dual press patch rig by the soundboard. Once again I have never put mics in the air. I do currently own a Microtrack II and what i am trying to do is find a set of mics and a pre that will sound good to me. On the other hand if i was to spend $1500 on a pre like the V3, I would also consider an all in one like the SD 702 or 722. I hope i am not coming off like a butt-head to you all. I am not a spoiled kid who wants to start off on top. I am actually a guy in my late 40's who can appreciate great live recordings and also still likes bands like Ratdog, as well as local bands.

Thanks again for all the great information. And yes if Apogee sill produced the Mini ME and the Mini MP it would be a no brain-er.

As a fellow 40 something old school Grateful Dead taper, I will offer the same advice as another old Dead taper we on this board all know has offered in the past when he ran a taper forum. Download some different sources of the same shows off the LMA, and "trust your ears". I think discussions like this that leave you sifting through everyone's subjective opinions has some value, but nothing compares to your making up your own mind about what sounds good TO YOU. After that, follow Brian's advice about picking a rig to start with and get out practice with it.

I like the Mini MP just fine, but I don't have the same cut and dry opion of it versus SD preamps that Steve does. I think the Mini MP sounds better than the MP-2/Mixpre with some brands of mics, and I think the reverse is true with others. But, that is my own subjective opinion. I make recordings for myself and I make conclusions about their quality based on what I hear, not what others say they hear.

Hope this helps!

[stevetoney]

I definitely agree with you Brad and I've made that point already (listen to shows and trust your own ears) in my responses to the other posts that cavernut has made. 

FWIW, I really do try to always add the caveat when I give a sound opinion that it's my subjective opinion, just the same way Brad has done in the post above. 

IMHO that's good proof enough right there why it's so necessary to conduct a survey with your own ears.  Another reason why I think that LMA is one of the best resources we have available to us...AND IT'S FREE!

BTW, cavernut, since we're rendering opinions here, I do disagree with people that say you shouldn't really rely on the archive because the room dynamics is most important to the recording.  While I agree that room dynamics IS the most important for getting a good recording...you aren't evaluating said recording on its own merit...you're simply trying to get a cross section of samples that will give you a good feel for what gear sounds like and whether than will satisfy your ear.  If you go out to the LMA and pick...say five different nice sounding recordings of whatever you're thinking about...YOU WILL ABSOLUTELY be able to get a really solid feel for what that rig sounds like and whether you will likely be satisfied with the sound if you invest your own hard earned money.  Sure, every sample won't sound exactly the same the same because room dynamics will cause the recordings to vary in quality, but that's not the point.  You'll get a feel for what the rig sounds like, and that's what you're after.  In the last couple of years, I've turned over TONS of gear and I've done this over and over and over myself.  Because of LMA, once the gear arrives I already fairly well know what to expect out of the gear, because I've already heard a cross section of good to lousy sounding recordings with the gear. 

Having said this, I fully agree that once you get the gear, you need be in the right spot of the room in order to get the best recordings.  (Standard caveat...the above is my opinion only.)

[digifish_music]

Background on my MixPre love - mainly features and technical. I record mainly in the studio, I rarely hear differences between preamps other than self-noise, to which I am particularly sensitive.

If I want a warmer sound, I do that in post with various plugins (saturation, EQ, multi band compression etc).

digifish