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Author Topic: pre w/ compression, line in, and low-z  (Read 6860 times)

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Offline mmmatt

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pre w/ compression, line in, and low-z
« on: September 13, 2005, 01:29:39 PM »
Hey all,
I'm thinking about adding another portable pre to my rig.  I will be using it LEAST as a mic pre and most for line in, but I would also like it to accept instrument pickups (low z).  In my perfect world it would have the following features:

modest price
analog out only
line-in
phantom
low-z input
compression
battery operatable
small size

Anybody have any suggestions?  I think that the MP-2 has all of this except the line in and low-z.

Matt
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




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Offline Chuck

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Re: pre w/ compression, line in, and low-z
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2005, 01:51:42 PM »
Mini-Me has most of those. Not line out though.
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Offline mmmatt

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Re: pre w/ compression, line in, and low-z
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2005, 02:04:50 PM »
a ua5 has line in & low-z on one xlr input, but i dont know about the compression.........
i'm sure someone else can chime in
no compression for the ua-5 but the ua-25 has compression.  I don't know that anyone has tried to digimod one of thoes yet.

Mini-Me has most of those. Not line out though.
the minime has no line out and that one is mandatory so I can use it with my multitrack rig.

What I am thinking of doing is going to a w-mod ua-5 for my ambient pre and adding another pre to the line in so I can run a live matrix without dealing with the little knob on the back of the ua-5 or bringing my mixer to the show.  I also have the need for a couple more pre's and/or low-z inputs for my multi rig.  This will kill all thoes birds with one stone.  The compression is nice to throw on the board feed in a live matrix, but I guess that isn't a huge one... just would be nice to play with.

Matt
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




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Offline johnw

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Re: pre w/ compression, line in, and low-z
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2005, 02:40:41 PM »
The MiniMe has a stereo headphone out, but doesn't have dedicated RCAs or XLRs. It would be easy to use a 1/8>dual RCA cable though.
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Offline Chuck

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Re: pre w/ compression, line in, and low-z
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2005, 05:43:19 PM »
The MiniMe has a stereo headphone out, but doesn't have dedicated RCAs or XLRs. It would be easy to use a 1/8>dual RCA cable though.

I happen to know where you could get a used Mini-Me  :)
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
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Offline Chris K

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Re: pre w/ compression, line in, and low-z
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2005, 07:33:12 PM »
just my opinion...why don't you save the compression for post? it will be alot easier to deal with and monitor in post than in a room/bar/club when you have a ton of other things on your adjenda

you could end up ruining a good passage with even just a little bit of compression.

skip it
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Offline mmmatt

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Re: pre w/ compression, line in, and low-z
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2005, 10:13:54 PM »
just my opinion...why don't you save the compression for post? it will be alot easier to deal with and monitor in post than in a room/bar/club when you have a ton of other things on your adjenda

you could end up ruining a good passage with even just a little bit of compression.

skip it
That is a good thought and I understand your point.  I do a lot of multitrack stuff, and many times my multitrack is just a board feed and 2-6 mics, or a glorified post-mixed matrix.  When in post I like to leave the mics full range and compress the board feed.  This allows me to bring the board source up to the front of the mix without loosing the sound of the room.  This way I also still maintain a very dynamic recording, and loose much of the inconsistancies in the typical board mix.
     I really like doing the multitrack stuff but I like the challange of a live matrix and the ease of post work when you can "nut it" in the field.  I would love to be able to produce the same results with a simple portable rig that I do with my multitrack rig.

Matt
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




Canon 24-70 f2.8L, Canon 135 f2L, Canon 70-200 f4L, Canon 50 f1.8, > Canon 5D or Canon xt (digi) and Canon 1N (film)

Offline mmmatt

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Re: pre w/ compression, line in, and low-z
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2005, 10:17:36 PM »
The MiniMe has a stereo headphone out, but doesn't have dedicated RCAs or XLRs. It would be easy to use a 1/8>dual RCA cable though.

I happen to know where you could get a used Mini-Me  :)
actually I would love a minime.  I would have bought one instead of my v2 if it had analog outs.  True about the headphone out but that has to be noisy.

Matt
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




Canon 24-70 f2.8L, Canon 135 f2L, Canon 70-200 f4L, Canon 50 f1.8, > Canon 5D or Canon xt (digi) and Canon 1N (film)

Offline muj

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Re: pre w/ compression, line in, and low-z
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2005, 02:20:48 AM »
just my opinion...why don't you save the compression for post? it will be alot easier to deal with and monitor in post than in a room/bar/club when you have a ton of other things on your adjenda

you could end up ruining a good passage with even just a little bit of compression.

skip it
That is a good thought and I understand your point.  I do a lot of multitrack stuff, and many times my multitrack is just a board feed and 2-6 mics, or a glorified post-mixed matrix.  When in post I like to leave the mics full range and compress the board feed.  This allows me to bring the board source up to the front of the mix without loosing the sound of the room.  This way I also still maintain a very dynamic recording, and loose much of the inconsistancies in the typical board mix.
     I really like doing the multitrack stuff but I like the challange of a live matrix and the ease of post work when you can "nut it" in the field.  I would love to be able to produce the same results with a simple portable rig that I do with my multitrack rig.

Matt

you should have a limiter on the mic pre and a limiter on the ad converter, should do the trick. if you start compressing at the show, you'll add to much noise or pumping artifacts from the lower levels.

Offline mmmatt

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Re: pre w/ compression, line in, and low-z
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2005, 05:13:48 PM »
You could very well be right especially if the compressor/limiter is just a switch.  Something to try.  I have heard Doug Oade suggest compression for a live matrix in a thread over there and that is what made me first think about it.  I typically hang on whatever Doug says and at least try it.
     The pulsing thing gets burried by the mic feed.  I don't usually compress that hard in post, but I have and although the board alone sounds funky, the mics hold it all together.

Matt
« Last Edit: September 14, 2005, 05:15:39 PM by mmmatt »
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




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Offline bluegrass_brad

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Re: pre w/ compression, line in, and low-z
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2005, 05:38:44 PM »
Alot of what is coming through the PA already will have a fair amount of compression, you definitely dont want to compress it alot more on top of that.  It will start to get that FM sound.  I would think (although I dont know) that Doug is talking about using a compressor to keep any overs from occuring.  Basically the threshold of the compressor should be set so that it only starts compressing during the loudest parts of the show.  That way you can optimize the volume of the board feed and not have to worry so much about levels.  This would also preserve the dynamics that are still present in the feed.  A limiter would also work fine, but if the levels got loud enough, and the limiter really started getting hit, it would be alot more noticable than a compressor (and n ot nearly so "musical").  Have you ever thought about getting a decent rack mount pre with insert points?  Than you could insert whatever you might need (compressor, limiter, etc).  This would also allow you to use higher quality compressor, like a Drawmer or the like.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2005, 05:41:13 PM by bluegrass_brad »
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Offline mmmatt

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Re: pre w/ compression, line in, and low-z
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2005, 06:12:11 PM »
Alot of what is coming through the PA already will have a fair amount of compression, you definitely dont want to compress it alot more on top of that.  It will start to get that FM sound.  I would think (although I dont know) that Doug is talking about using a compressor to keep any overs from occuring.  Basically the threshold of the compressor should be set so that it only starts compressing during the loudest parts of the show.  That way you can optimize the volume of the board feed and not have to worry so much about levels.  This would also preserve the dynamics that are still present in the feed.  A limiter would also work fine, but if the levels got loud enough, and the limiter really started getting hit, it would be alot more noticable than a compressor (and n ot nearly so "musical").  Have you ever thought about getting a decent rack mount pre with insert points?  Than you could insert whatever you might need (compressor, limiter, etc).  This would also allow you to use higher quality compressor, like a Drawmer or the like.
I have thought about that, but the idea of revamping my ambient rig this way is to carry 1 bag in and be done with it.  I don't have experience with outboard compression like you do Brad, but I am confidant that my method works fine with software compression.  I have done it many times... I always do it now.  If you haven't tried this and you are going off theroy you should give it a try.  It really is a nice way to pad the peaks of the board and introduce the ambience and crowd from the mics without making it sound like a typical stale board feed or a typical noisy matrix.  I usually go with somewhere between 2 and 4 to 1 at a 20db threshold using a good stereo compressor plug-in.  I sometimes will use a 3-band compressor and use that to control different frequincies individually. 
     In a typical matrix scenario you have a lot of crowd noise in your mics.  Depending on the venue, head count, and general disposition of the crowd you may have nostop talking throuought the show.  By compressing the board you are essentially bringing the board more upfront for a given "peak level".  So when there is sound coming through the board the board is hotter than when uncompressed and burries much of the mic feed.  When the board feed is silent, the crowd noise from the mics shows through. When doing live matrixes I always pushed my mics hotter between songs to amplify the reaction.  Using compression in this way does essentially the same thing without having to screw with levels at each song break.  The mics are (typiically) left uncompressed and maintain the dynamic punch even though the board is being squeezed pretty good.
     I will try to find that post from Doug on the compression.  He recomended a dbx unit but I can't remember all he said about it.  I'll find it and quote or link it.

Matt
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




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Offline mmmatt

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Re: pre w/ compression, line in, and low-z
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2005, 06:26:23 PM »
Here is one:  http://www.oade.com/Tapers_Section/Forum/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=100&topic_id=2385&mesg_id=2385&listing_type=search

Seems to me there was another one, but I can't find it for some reason.  This says a lot of what I'm saying though.

Matt
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




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Offline bluegrass_brad

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Re: pre w/ compression, line in, and low-z
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2005, 06:40:20 PM »
Yeah, He is saying pretty much what I am, probably just more clearly.  The compressor threshold is set high so it doesnt do a whole lot of compressing until the signal gets loud.  Then it starts to squash it to keep it from peaking (but not alot 3:1 to 4:1 is relatively light compression using a high threshold). If the feed is always running pretty hot, he increases the compression ratio a little more to help prevent the peaking.  He is then using the output gain on the compressor to bring it up front. Soft knee helps cut down on the pumping and breathing. This is what I did on most of the on the fly matrixs I was doing of YMSB shows. I usually set the compression threshold to about 12 or so (this would vary, but not alot)  On all of the ones we officially released online (the ones on Livedownloads)  we did it all in post.  We used the Waves compressor that Doug is using.  It sounds very nice for a plug-in.  We didnt use a whole lot of compression though.  Do you have a finalizer?  It makes a world of difference when mastering.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2005, 06:42:07 PM by bluegrass_brad »
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Offline mmmatt

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Re: pre w/ compression, line in, and low-z
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2005, 02:04:27 AM »
What is a finalizer?
Thanks for the discussion Brad.  +T

Matt
« Last Edit: September 15, 2005, 02:21:10 AM by mmmatt »
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




Canon 24-70 f2.8L, Canon 135 f2L, Canon 70-200 f4L, Canon 50 f1.8, > Canon 5D or Canon xt (digi) and Canon 1N (film)

 

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