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Offline achalsey

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Re: Personal opinions on sound descriptions
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2010, 01:04:07 AM »
First, the above convo is hilarious, I can't imagine how being married for the long haul feels like, but you gotta love significant others, at least she tried tonedeaf.   :)

But, basically to make other subjective comparisons:

From what I'm hearing; "Bright" is like a descent white wine.  Not terrible, but generally pretty light, relatively thin and to be enjoyed by those not entirely interested in getting into the meat of something complex, while...

"Warm" is like a good deep full bodied red wine that fills your mouth with richer complex flavor (or sound in this case) that you can really feel throughout.

Also, from what I'm reading, I agree with Terry, there seems like there could be a better description than "warm" for a good low end recording. 

Offline SmokinJoe

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Re: Personal opinions on sound descriptions
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2010, 10:14:01 PM »
In my mind, "bright" means extremely crisp, especially snare drum and cymbals.  Taken a little too far, it's crisp to the point where it's fatiguing to listen to.  I don't necessarily equate it with lack of bass.
Example: http://www.archive.org/details/jwpp2008-09-13.flac16f
Example:  http://www.archive.org/details/wbt2008-03-29.cemc6.flac16f
You listen to these for a little while and the sizzle of the cymbals makes you want to switch to something else.

Now here is the same mic as the JWPP above, in a different setting, and on this one I consider it "Fat" where the bass guitar just wraps itself around you.  Still a bit of sizzle on the cymbals, but it's nicely balanced.
http://www.archive.org/details/nmas2008-01-27.lsd2.flac16f

Warm is an absence of "brightness".  Most people prefer warmth, but taken to far it starts to sound "muddy".
Example: http://www.archive.org/details/brew2008-04-26.lsd2.flac16f   This one is a bit too bass heavy.  Same LSD2.

"Dark" is like "Warm", except, in my mind, it's less enjoyable.  Smooooooth, which can be good, but taken too far it's almost too smooth... bland.  Some people love "dark",  I don't.  This one is kind of like that.  Nothing wrong with it, its just seems a bit bland to me.  http://www.archive.org/details/cj2009-06-18.bscs-l.flac16
« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 10:16:01 PM by SmokinJoe »
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Offline Todd R

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Re: Personal opinions on sound descriptions
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2010, 01:17:48 PM »
"Warm" is the most overused word on this forum, bar none. 

Absolutely agreed.  And I think it comes from the (misguided IME) notion that warm = good.  So if you want to say something sounds good, but you want to be too cool to just say it sounds good, you say it sounds "warm"

Thus getting to the notion that warm = good and bright = bad.  I couldn't disagree more.

Warm and bright to me help describe the prevailing nature of the sound, at least on one dimension.  The stereophile definitions get at them well, as does Terry/twatt's description.  Too much of a good thing makes it bad, whether it be too bright or too warm (aka too dark).  As does too little, not enough brightness also makes for an unpleasant sound/reproduction, for example.

If in one's own mind bright = bad without any regard to the nature of the sound, and warm = good without any regard to the nature of the sound, can't we just be clear and stop using warm or bright and just keep it as good or bad?  If warm actually is describing an aspect of the sound, and bright is just describing an aspect of the sound, we need to stop being so pejorative -- then warm or bright are just aspects, and not commentary on whether it sounds good.

I myself much, much prefer a sound that is on the bright side, and conversely sound on the warmer side is generally not to my taste.  It doesn't mean that I like bad sound and prefer bad sound over good sound, though I may well prefer a sound that others do not.



But, basically to make other subjective comparisons:

From what I'm hearing; "Bright" is like a descent white wine.  Not terrible, but generally pretty light, relatively thin and to be enjoyed by those not entirely interested in getting into the meat of something complex, while...

"Warm" is like a good deep full bodied red wine that fills your mouth with richer complex flavor (or sound in this case) that you can really feel throughout.

Again, give the above, no, I don't agree with this at all.  You say decent white wine and full-bodied red and it definitely makes it sound like bright is bad.  Why not say bright is like an excellent single-malt scotch and warm is like Coors lite?  Some people might like Coors and hate scotch, but overall analogies like this to me are either wrong or not helpful.

Sorry, not to beat it to death, but I really wish we could get away from warm = good and bright = bad.  I still maintain if all you are trying to do is tell us whether you like a sound, just say you like it, or that it sounds bad.  If we want to use terms like bright and warm to describe the nature of the sound, we shouldn't be attaching good and bad to those descriptions, since good and bad are in the ear of the beholder.

I just feel like I can't even use those terms since people attach so much meaning to them.  For example, I think that Gefell m200's are on the brighter side and Schoeps are on the warmer side.  Can I say this when I personally think the Gefell are among the best mics I've ever listened to and all schoeps recordings sound like they have a blanket over them?
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Offline Chuck

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Re: Personal opinions on sound descriptions
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2010, 02:03:58 PM »
Great discussion!

ToddR and I have talked about this recently in reference to the Tascam DR-680.

Going back to the hey day of the UA-5...
I remember the Oade Warm UA-5 vs Grace V3 comparison someone did.
Many people could not tell the difference or did not have a preference between the two.

I owned a V3 and I would not say that a V3 is warm sounding. But, I bet some people got the idea that the V3 was "warm" sounding because of the "warm" description Doug Oade used to describe the modifications he made to the UA-5. That may be the genesis of the idea that warm is good. I don't know. I would use neutral before saying a V3 is warm. Some people may think neutral is a bad way to describe a pre-amp or a microphone, too.

The thing is, that every piece of equipment in the recording chain can and often does introduce some distortion into the recording. Talk about getting a bad rap, distortion is a very much maligned term, too. But the truth is, distortion is not always bad and it's actually the distortions that each piece of gear contributes to the sound that we all try to describe.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

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Offline achalsey

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Re: Personal opinions on sound descriptions
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2010, 02:33:08 PM »
"Warm" is the most overused word on this forum, bar none. 


But, basically to make other subjective comparisons:

From what I'm hearing; "Bright" is like a descent white wine.  Not terrible, but generally pretty light, relatively thin and to be enjoyed by those not entirely interested in getting into the meat of something complex, while...

"Warm" is like a good deep full bodied red wine that fills your mouth with richer complex flavor (or sound in this case) that you can really feel throughout.

Again, give the above, no, I don't agree with this at all.

Great!  I guess I shouldn't be in the analogy game given I don't know what I'm talking about, thanks for the input.

Also, to possibly spark some more discussion, I have a "transparency" modded UA5....comments?

Offline Todd R

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Re: Personal opinions on sound descriptions
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2010, 03:02:55 PM »
To reiterate what Chuck said -- great discussion, glad you're bringing this to the forefront!

And your analogy doesn't work for me, but it did sum up what a lot of people were saying -- I just don't agree with the sentiment.  To me, the brighter recording with more detail and good transients and attack is the red wine (or single malt scotch) -- very complex and interesting.  The warmer sound is more like a cold Fat Tire (ok, can't go so far as a Coors light) -- smooth and enjoyable. I'd never say I don't like it, it just isn't that complex or involving.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Personal opinions on sound descriptions
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2010, 05:26:46 PM »
Can-o-worms!

The problem as I see it is that I have my own concept of what these kinds of words mean when I'm dancing about architecture and I think I often presume that others have the same basic idea structure behind the concepts these words are meant to convey.  From time to time, that presumption is blown out of the water and I realize that others are thinking something entirely different.. like in this thread.  So we can talk about our own definitions, but in the end I see the primary value of this thread as a general warning about subjectivism in descriptive terms about sound. 

I like what Todd is saying.  I also tend to lean the same way when it comes to personal sound preference (I think!) For me the terms bright and warm are tonal modifiers, they are analogous to bass and treble tone controls.  You can have too much or too little of either, but in the absence of other things, they are aspects that careful eq adjustment can correct. I see them as covering a relatively wide range of frequencies at each end of the spectrum (low Q, in eq terms), the ‘meat and potato’ zones on either side of the midrange, not the extreme bass and treble.  The terms thin, and dull seem to me to be subtractive aspects of warm and bright respectively.

Although I'm sensitive to the balance of sound across the frequency range, I’m most critical of the upper midrange. A recording can be too bright or not bright enough.  If it's bright then it has too much energy somewhere in the upper midrange or treble. I don't prefer it, but I can more easily accept less than the ideal amount of energy in the bass regions (a good thing, as it makes the possibility of listening on anything with less than a 10" speaker enjoyable), where as too much bass energy at a certain frequency is always too much.  Maybe that is why warm is more problematic of a term.. it always sounds like it should be a good thing.

There are other words that may also fall in the tonal category such as bloated, muddy, boomy, hollow, nasal, tinny, spitty, piercing, etc (arranged generally from low to high frequency), but those terms are much less precise for me, even though they are always used in a negative sense, so at least that part should be clear.  At the very least they seem to refer to a less broad portion of the spectrum, describing a higher-Q frequency things, resonances, ringing, room modes, but they might also be used to convey non-tonal ideas as well.

 Loose, tight, clean, saturated, fast, etc. seem to describe dynamic and transient aspects.  There seems to be a definite polarity built into these terms themselves: good vs bad, as well as the dynamic thing it is describing.  Maybe that makes them easier to agree on than warm and bright.

I like the term 'transparent', partially because it conveys no tonal idea for me at all, and so it carries less personal preference baggage. For me it conveys more of an ideal, a sense of clarity, being able to hear a sense of depth and detail (a few more idealized terms).  Personally I value transparency, clarity, depth and detail so highly that i sometimes make choices that others might consider slightly bright or a sacrifice of warmth in an effort to enhance those aspects, using tonal tricks that trade on what might be my preferred choice of perfect tone in a better recording.

Now I’ve thrown out a bunch of terms with only partial definitions.  Sometimes I use the same word to mean to different things.  Does depth relate to being able to hear a sense of distance, a sense of clarity in space, or does it refer to how low in frequency the bass range goes? Depends.

Worms.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 05:28:42 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline datbrad

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Re: Personal opinions on sound descriptions
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2010, 01:52:10 PM »
To reiterate what Chuck said -- great discussion, glad you're bringing this to the forefront!

And your analogy doesn't work for me, but it did sum up what a lot of people were saying -- I just don't agree with the sentiment.  To me, the brighter recording with more detail and good transients and attack is the red wine (or single malt scotch) -- very complex and interesting.  The warmer sound is more like a cold Fat Tire (ok, can't go so far as a Coors light) -- smooth and enjoyable. I'd never say I don't like it, it just isn't that complex or involving.

Been following this thread with interest, and I have to disagree with what folks consider "warm" means in audio. Nothing against your's and other's descriptions of things they like or don't like about sound, it just proves that the terms and the defintions are widely variable in opinion. The negative descriptions of warm lacking complexity or involvement refers to the term "flat" not warm. The opposite of warm is cold, which is more analytical than musical, not only in my opinion but that of most audiophiles for over 30 years.

The first time I heard the term "warm" applied to audio was in the mid '70s, a full decade before I started taping in 1984, which was another full decade before I heard it applied to taping gear sound.

Back in the '70s, my old man used Macintosh tube amps with his then state-of-the-art home stereo system including a high end turntable and 7" reel to reel deck, which were simply called HiFi systems back then. "Warm" was a term of quality that high end tube circuits produced,  where the new on the scene solid state amplifiers were considered "cold". It was a simple as that then, and I think still is today as we discuss recording gear.

When I think of "warm" as a quality of sound, I am looking for no less high end energy, and not an overemphasis in bass. Instead I expect equal detail with a sweeter sounding high end, smoother cleaner bass, and a more realistic midrange. If anyone tried to sell a piece of gear calling it "warm" and it contained any of the negative qualities you and others attribute to the term, I would call BS.

Just my opinion, but what do I know, I'm an old guy.
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Offline Todd R

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Re: Personal opinions on sound descriptions
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2010, 02:36:29 PM »
Given the highly subjective nature of these terms, it isn't surprising you have a different take on what they mean from me or anyone else.  FWIW, from what you're saying, I don't think I would use the term warm much differently than you actually.  And I really didn't get into too much detail on what I meant by warm, since I was more interested in making the point that it isn't very useful to have warm just be a synonym for good and bright a synonym for bad if they didn't actually also attempt to in some way describe the sound.

It is surprising to me you've attached a meaning of so much negativity to my use of warm.  Partly since I did very little to describe it and only said the stereophile definition worked for me.  Partly surprising since I used the same language as you in some instances and because you say I'm so negative about it when I say I always find it smooth and enjoyable, which doesn't sound very negative.

Anyway, not trying to pick apart what you're saying, just trying to understand.  About the only thing I implied with my analogy to Fat Tire that is it isn't as complex.  I do like some level of warmth to my music, whether my recordings or my playback -- I've owned for example several transformer preamps and several tube amps.  We both mentioned smooth though as an attribute.  It still seems to me that if the recording equipment does something to smooth out the sound, it has made it less complex in some way.  If you've got a wrinkled blanket on a bed, it is a very complex surface and would require complex mathematics to describe it. If you smooth out the blanket and it lies flat, it is much less complex and requires much simpler mathematics to describe the surface it now creates. I don't see how that can be different with sound -- make it more smooth and you've made it less complex, though it still can be very enjoyable to listen to.  So a recording system can be accurate and transparent, or it can add edginess or distortion (making it more complex probably, but not accurate), or it can smooth out the sound.  If among other things, warm connotes smooth, was the sound smooth to begin with or did the warm system smooth it out?  If the latter, then didn't it make it less complex?  If the former, then warm isn't then smooth in any way, it is just meaning accurate, right?

As Chuck notes, he and I have been struggling with this, me in particular.  We did a comp of Gefells> EAA PSP2 preamp with two outputs, one to my (now former) Oade mod R44 and one output to his new Tascam DR680.  On listening, I find the 680 to be much more V3-like in its sound.  The Oade R44 to me is what I would describe as warmer.  The recording among other thing sounds smoother and more tube-like to me.  It also sounds fantastic -- I listened critically for hours on a couple of nice playback systems, trying to decide if I liked the sound of the Oade R44 or the 680.  In the scheme of things, the Oade R44 was on the warmer side and the 680 was on the more detailed/brighter side.  That doesn't mean the Oade R44 had no detail or was flat, but it didn't have the same presentation as the 680.  And the R44 recording, as well as my other ones, sound very, very enjoyable.  I'd never say, man I just don't like listening to this.  Conversely, I listened quite a bit to the 680 recording, worried that it might sound a bit on the edgy side, or perhaps fatiguing to listen to over the long haul.  I never worried about these concerns with the Oade R44.  In the end though, my ear preferred the sound of the 680, as enjoyable as the R44 recordings were (so I've sold the Oade R44 and ordered a 680). 
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Offline datbrad

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Re: Personal opinions on sound descriptions
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2010, 02:54:19 PM »
Todd, I agree with most of what you are saying, and I understand now that you were not being as negative as I was taking you.

I do want to add that to me, there are other aspects of warm that I am trying to hear when I seek that sound, such as depth and dimension, which are qualities of the source that are sometimes not as apparent with more transparent systems that have too much up front presence, or an almost exaggerated detail that was not audible to listeners at the live event, even at the same location as the mic placement.

Enjoy that 680, my buddy Matt has been making some sweet recordings with his.

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Offline Todd R

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Re: Personal opinions on sound descriptions
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2010, 03:11:12 PM »
Todd, I agree with most of what you are saying, and I understand now that you were not being as negative as I was taking you.

I do want to add that to me, there are other aspects of warm that I am trying to hear when I seek that sound, such as depth and dimension, which are qualities of the source that are sometimes not as apparent with more transparent systems that have too much up front presence, or an almost exaggerated detail that was not audible to listeners at the live event, even at the same location as the mic placement.

Enjoy that 680, my buddy Matt has been making some sweet recordings with his.

I agree with you on depth and dimension, though I don't think I necessarily attach those qualities as ones described by "warm".  The Oade R44 had great depth and dimension though -- one of the things I was worried (and still worry) that I'd miss with a new recorder.

BTW -- Matt Hiles?  I find myself following in his footsteps alot.  I bought his Marenius 4ch mixer from him awhile back (long since sold by me), and was one of the first people, probably the first person, to follow in his footsteps regarding the Milab vm44's.  Now with the 680 -- we seem to have similar tastes in sound.

Edit to say:  I think Matt followed in my footsteps in regards to the littlebox though.  Grace Lunatec too for that matter, though that is a pretty well worn path in taping (and after 7 years I no longer own mine anyway).
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 03:14:48 PM by Todd R »
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Offline datbrad

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Re: Personal opinions on sound descriptions
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2010, 03:36:18 PM »
Todd, I agree with most of what you are saying, and I understand now that you were not being as negative as I was taking you.

I do want to add that to me, there are other aspects of warm that I am trying to hear when I seek that sound, such as depth and dimension, which are qualities of the source that are sometimes not as apparent with more transparent systems that have too much up front presence, or an almost exaggerated detail that was not audible to listeners at the live event, even at the same location as the mic placement.

Enjoy that 680, my buddy Matt has been making some sweet recordings with his.

I agree with you on depth and dimension, though I don't think I necessarily attach those qualities as ones described by "warm".  The Oade R44 had great depth and dimension though -- one of the things I was worried (and still worry) that I'd miss with a new recorder.

BTW -- Matt Hiles?  I find myself following in his footsteps alot.  I bought his Marenius 4ch mixer from him awhile back (long since sold by me), and was one of the first people, probably the first person, to follow in his footsteps regarding the Milab vm44's.  Now with the 680 -- we seem to have similar tastes in sound.

Edit to say:  I think Matt followed in my footsteps in regards to the littlebox though.  Grace Lunatec too for that matter, though that is a pretty well worn path in taping (and after 7 years I no longer own mine anyway).

Yes, same Matt. He used to live here in Richmond and we have been taping together since 1990, lots of following each other over the years for he and I as well. Great guy !!

I think another aspect of warm, as I think of it when I am seeking that sound quality for my ears, is that it is more analog like, where transparent systems are not. Another good analogy, IMO, would be to compare the results of HD cinema grade video cameras to their older cousins, high resolution cinema film cameras.

We've all seen HD video with it's unaturally extended depth of field focus, and strange motion artifacts, and stark contrasty imaging. High resolution film has a natural human eye level of depth of field, and delicate moving objects like snowflakes are fully visible, but have a natural motion because there is no more detail than your own eyes would see in real life.

There are cinema HD video cameras as well as post production software available now that tout features to replicate the 24fps movie film, and lessen the depth of field to look more like a film camera. It's a similar quest with "warm" in audio I think.

So, when I say something sounds warm, I mean it sounds closer to analog, natural with characteristics closer to normal human hearing. Maybe results that are not as clinical and accurate as some seem to like, but are more musical to my ears.

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Re: Personal opinions on sound descriptions
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2010, 05:49:37 PM »
all of the responses so far have been adequately round and punchy, but none seem have enough reach, and are not as 3 dimensional as i might wish.  too much saturated phat...

 

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