Topic: Warm Mod UA5=Grace Sound, Presence Mod UA5=Apogee

[bhadella]

Just wanted to clarify since I couldn't find a definitive answer online till I spoke to the Oade guys.....

Warm Mod UA5=Grace/V3 flavor
Presence Mod UA5=Apogee/Minime flavor

Since I love the ADK TL>V3 sound, I think a Warm UA5 is in my future!!!

[Chuck]

Just wanted to clarify since I couldn't find a definitive answer online till I spoke to the Oade guys.....

Warm Mod UA5=Grace/V3 flavor
Presence Mod UA5=Apogee/Minime flavor

Since I love the ADK TL>V3 sound, I think a Warm UA5 is in my future!!!

So that's what Doug said?
It's weird, because I think a lot of people thought it was the other way around. It always made more sense to me W Mod=Grace though.

[bhadella]

I think the confusion is that people tend to think of the V3 as being as transparent as the V2......The pre-amp function of the V3 is very transparent, but the A/D does have a warmness to it.

I've never listened to a minime and thought it was as bright or forward sounding, but that is the description the Oades gave me.

[Brian]

either way ADK TL > w-mod is a nice combo. i just starting running it myself and have been very pleased witht the sound overall. however i've only used cards and hypers so far. can't wait to bust out some spaced omnis or run blumlein at a sweet jazz show

[marc0789]

I think the confusion is that people tend to think of the V3 as being as transparent as the V2......The pre-amp function of the V3 is very transparent, but the A/D does have a warmness to it.

I've never listened to a minime and thought it was as bright or forward sounding, but that is the description the Oades gave me.

Are those Oade golden ears going tone-deaf?   V3 a/d warm?! NFWIMHO.

[Brian Skalinder]

The distinction makes sense to me:

Warm-mod UA5 / Grace sound
overall feels smoother across the range
full, extended low end, but not as tight as below
nice meaty mids with an even transition to highs
extended highs, soft on attack but long on decay

Presence-mod UA5 / Apogee sound
overall feels punchier across the range
slightly rolled-off low-end, more "shape" to it in the mid-upper lows
mids more up front, punchier
more pronounced highs, brings out the attack in the highs

To my ears, this sort of mirrors the differences I hear between the Grace V3 and Apogee Minime.  I find the Grace warmer, smoother, and fuller, more extended, while the Apogee has more "shape" to it, feels punchier in the deep lows and more pronounced in the upper bass and upper mids/highs.

Some people prefer the warm and smooth (some would say boring) Grace sound.  Some people prefer the punchier, more up front (some would say edgier) Apogee sound.

 :twocents:

[dmonterisi]

I think the confusion is that people tend to think of the V3 as being as transparent as the V2......The pre-amp function of the V3 is very transparent, but the A/D does have a warmness to it.

I've never listened to a minime and thought it was as bright or forward sounding, but that is the description the Oades gave me.

Are those Oade golden ears going tone-deaf?   V3 a/d warm?! NFWIMHO.

whatever, eugene, i don't think doug is listening in his car.  

[EScott]

whatever, eugene, i don't think doug is listening in his car.

 

[marc0789]

yeah, I only listen in the car, Damon. Amd Doug MUST be right, of course. I don't know of anyone more knowledgeable than Doug, but even gurus can be wrong. He is the one who said "the best preamp is no preamp", yet came out with his own hand-made $1,300 pre. And the one who said the sbm-1 was his "favorite a/d."  And Brown must be right when he says the v3 is warm?! In my "opinion", and it's just that, the v3 isn't going to sound warm unless you throw a pair of tubes in front of it, and a tube pre behind it. I have nothing but bright sounding >v3 recordings. Not all bad, just more "presence" than "warm", for sure.

[Brian Skalinder]

Who's Brown and how did he get into this?

And your V3 recordings wouldn't sound so bright if you didn't listen to them on your POS playback system.      Just giving you grief, Marc...  

[marc0789]

Scott Brown. And I do have a POS home system. But not POS enough to make a warm pre sound bright.  

[dmonterisi]

yeah, I only listen in the car, Damon. Amd Doug MUST be right, of course. I don't know of anyone more knowledgeable than Doug, but even gurus can be wrong. He is the one who said "the best preamp is no preamp", yet came out with his own hand-made $1,300 pre. And the one who said the sbm-1 was his "favorite a/d."  And Brown must be right when he says the v3 is warm?! In my "opinion", and it's just that, the v3 isn't going to sound warm unless you throw a pair of tubes in front of it, and a tube pre behind it. I have nothing but bright sounding >v3 recordings. Not all bad, just more "presence" than "warm", for sure.

i think doug is like the wizard of oz, he's known only by reputation, the internet and some phone calls to a payphone at a truck stop in thomasville, ga.

[Joe w.]

i don't find anything about the V3 to be warm...

Apogee = warm.

Grace = Tight, accurate.

just my 2. i don't run either box......and my playback is about as good as that low carb burger king concoction i saw in the adkins thread

[EScott]

"And the one who said the sbm-1 was his "favorite a/d."

I still remember when I was considering buying my 1st rig - 480>148>SBM-1.  I posted on Digipanic asking for opinions, someone told me to just send them the $400 for the SBM-1 and they would fly to Denver and just stomp on all of my tapes.  I got a laugh out of that.

Eric

[Craig T]

V3 isn't warm.  Wmod-UA5 doesn't sound like a V3, closer to a MME.  The V3 has smoother and more extended highs compared to the Pmod-UA5, but low end is similar.

[marc0789]

v3 is as tight as Pamela Anderson, and as accurate as Mark Bulger.  

[Joe w.]

the sky is blue.


Let's see if you disagree with that one.

[Nick in Edinboro]

dude the sky is most definately grey here.

[Joe w.]

bastards.

[marc0789]

grey here for sure. and 20 degrees, with a bitchin' 20 mph wind. And it's way above normal.

[Nick in Edinboro]

I'd call the sky warm and tight, with colored mids and white highs..  There's snow falling so it might not be bit perfect, I'm not exactly sure until I'm done with my testing.

Marc, it's -7 here with the windchill.  A warm +6 without the windchill.

[marc0789]

you know, it's cold to me, but really unusually warm here, high around 24 today, some wind chill, but not bad. Pretty wimpy so far, and I guess that's the trend here over the last several years. Being from Phoenix, still freezing my nuts off, until I moved here, high of 60 in the winter was worth bitching about, and anything below 40 at night, cold!!!  

[Brian Skalinder]

The distinction makes sense to me:

Warm-mod UA5 / Grace sound
overall feels smoother across the range
full, extended low end, but not as tight as below
nice meaty mids with an even transition to highs
extended highs, soft on attack but long on decay

Presence-mod UA5 / Apogee sound
overall feels punchier across the range
slightly rolled-off low-end, more "shape" to it in the mid-upper lows
mids more up front, punchier
more pronounced highs, brings out the attack in the highs

To my ears, this sort of mirrors the differences I hear between the Grace V3 and Apogee Minime.  I find the Grace warmer, smoother, and fuller, more extended, while the Apogee has more "shape" to it, feels punchier in the deep lows and more pronounced in the upper bass and upper mids/highs.

Some people prefer the warm and smooth (some would say boring) Grace sound.  Some people prefer the punchier, more up front (some would say edgier) Apogee sound.

 :twocents:

My ears hear what I wrote and I know which I prefer.  Use whatever single-word descriptor you want: warm = this, presence = that, doesn't matter to me.  However, I think we'd all have a better time understanding each other's opinions on how these devices sound to our own ears if we used more than a single word to describe each.

[Craig T]

Brian,

I completely agree with your descriptions of the warm & presence mods.  I think maybe we should just quit trying to equate them to the "Grace" or "Apogee" sound - they really don't sound like either, certainly not close enough to be a cheap replacement if that's what people are looking for.  The UA5 mods give us 2 more flavors to chose from and great sound and features for not so much $.

[MattD]

Scott Brown. And I do have a POS home system. But not POS enough to make a warm pre sound bright.  

Um, that wasn't Scott.

[Brian]

Brian,

I completely agree with your descriptions of the warm & presence mods.  I think maybe we should just quit trying to equate them to the "Grace" or "Apogee" sound - they really don't sound like either, certainly not close enough to be a cheap replacement if that's what people are looking for.  The UA5 mods give us 2 more flavors to chose from and great sound and features for not so much $.

well put. +T

[pfife]

Brian,

I completely agree with your descriptions of the warm & presence mods.  I think maybe we should just quit trying to equate them to the "Grace" or "Apogee" sound - they really don't sound like either, certainly not close enough to be a cheap replacement if that's what people are looking for.  The UA5 mods give us 2 more flavors to chose from and great sound and features for not so much $.

wasn't there a couple of polls that demonstrated that people couldn't tell the difference between the v3 and wmod, or guessed which one was which incorrectly?

Maybe I was interpreting the polls incorrectly...

I agree that the wmond sounds great and is cheap, which unfortunately is my most prevalent concern...  

[Craig T]

wasn't there a couple of polls that demonstrated that people couldn't tell the difference between the v3 and wmod, or guessed which one was which incorrectly?

Maybe I was interpreting the polls incorrectly...

I agree that the wmond sounds great and is cheap, which unfortunately is my most prevalent concern...  

True.  I guess I have the advantage of frequently using both the wmod and v3 over the last few years so I can easily tell the difference between them.  has anyone done a wmod/mme or a pmod/v3 comp?  I bet the results are similar.  And actually, people guessing incorrectly not only tells me they sound different, but also that people don't truly know what a v3 sounds like (with A mics in B config at C location for D band at E venue...).

[Sean Gallemore]

and schoeps are muddy, right?

[Nick's Picks]

what strikes me as odd is that nobody mentions the fact that the stock UA-5 sounds great on its own, w/o the upgrades.
It'll be my next pre/AD, and i'll attempt the digi-mod myself dagnabbit!
probably end up w/Doug bailing me out or catching the silly thing on fire.

[thinkbig]

so...

we have decided for a preamps:

Grace = "Bright"
Apegee  =  "Edgey"

so the answer is to match your pre with your mics??..

ie.  dont use a "bright mic" with a "bright pre"  ??

what do you guys think?

Jeff

[Brian Skalinder]

we have decided for a preamps:

Grace = "Bright"
Apegee  =  "Edgey"

I don't think "we" have decided anything.  I posted my more detailed impressions of the different pieces of gear to try to draw out some discussion instead of limiting ourselves to one-word descriptions of the sound.  In doing so, some agreed, others disagreed.  That's all, nothing more.

so the answer is to match your pre with your mics??

ie.  dont use a "bright mic" with a "bright pre"  ??

Definitely.  But match them to YOUR ears.  Matching preamps and mics is definitely an important consideration when picking out gear.  But if the warm-mod-UA5 v. V3 comparisons performed previously are any indication, we ALL have different playback systems, ears/brains, and preferences.  I don't think there's a hard and fast rule.

[F.O.Bean]

we have decided for a preamps:

Grace = "Bright"
Apegee  =  "Edgey"

I don't think "we" have decided anything.  I posted my more detailed impressions of the different pieces of gear to try to draw out some discussion instead of limiting ourselves to one-word descriptions of the sound.  In doing so, some agreed, others disagreed.  That's all, nothing more.

so the answer is to match your pre with your mics??

ie.  dont use a "bright mic" with a "bright pre"  ??

Definitely.  But match them to YOUR ears.  Matching preamps and mics is definitely an important consideration when picking out gear.  But if the warm-mod-UA5 v. V3 comparisons performed previously are any indication, we ALL have different playback systems, ears/brains, and preferences.  I don't think there's a hard and fast rule.

a good example of this would be me.....i run 480's, said to be a "bright" mic, and i used to run a dmic-20, said to be a "bright" pre, w/ detail, but bright, and when i ran the v3, said to be "bright", it wasnt as bright as the dmic- but w/ TONS more detail, 2 pretty bright things, but w/ exceptional clarity, so what im saying is, there is no BEST decision, only one that fits you and your needs...

my 00.02

bean

[Joe w.]

I posted my more detailed impressions of the different pieces of gear to try to draw out some discussion instead of limiting ourselves to one-word descriptions of the sound.

I think you can give those descriptions because you have good playback gear and you can hear things like "extended highs, soft on attack but long on decay" as compared to "more pronounced highs, brings out the attack in the highs".....I know I can't really hear that much detailed info on my shitbag playback....hence the one word generalizations. I describe some of these pieces of gear from the feeling i get from the sound as compared to others, when comparing on the same system........But in heinsight (sp.) Generalizing probably leads to inaccurate misconceptions. But i know the feeling i get when listening to ak40 > v3 as opposed to ak40 > apogee for example....
one is *tight* and *detailed* (perhaps a better choice of words than accurate) and the other is *warm*

[rabhan]

this thread is really funny

[sickrick43]

this thread is really funny

Sure is.  Since HEARING is a matter of playback system, and ears.  After AGONIZING RESEARCH (with $$ being no object) I went with the TLM170's & V3 , because with the mikes phased correctly, the setup is ROOM ACCURATE.  My recordings sound EXACTLY like the room sounded (for better or worse).  The mikes and pre have almost ZERO coloration to them, and I've found the A/D to be crisp and accurate, adding no coloration of it's own.  If I want to change how my recording sounds, I can do it in POST PROCESSING, with a good set of headphones, and an FFT Scope.

As far as Doug & Jim go, I know both of them OVER 20 years (when most people here were playing with Mr. Microphones).  Dougs most telling comment, pertains to your EARS.  Some people have a "musical ear" and some don't.  It really comes down to INDIVIDUAL PREFERENCE.  I can replace some caps in a pre, and tell you it sounds "warmer with crisper soaring highs, like a Colorado Breeze after an early spring snow", and I'm trying to translate a perception into words.  Not saying that mods don't do what they're claimed to do, but some of the descriptions are, like, oh, wow man <wink>.

LISTEN to the combo of equipment you want to record thru.  I fell in love with the TLM170's from patching the Oades setup at many shows.  SWORE I'd NEVER SPEND $4K on a pair of microphones.  But when I came time to buy a new front end for myself, and $$ was no object, they were the ONLY CHOICE - NOTHING out there touches them for transparancy & versatility.  And I'm not playing "my mikes are better than your mikes", it's just a FACT.  The same goes for the LunaTech -  $$ being no object, for the SOUND, VERSATILITY & FEATURE SET (the level LED's are what sold me really <g>), combined with the 170's, NOTHING TOUCHES IT.

I understand most people here aren't going to spend $6K on a recording setup (ESPECIALLY to plug into a JB3 <BFG> only kidding, I have a D-10P also).  And I'm REALLY an asshole, cause I don't really tape that much anymore besides.  So, to take a UA5 and modify it in an attempt to make it sound closer to a "standard" in field recording, is an admirable (and cost effective) thing to do.

But the - FINAL JUDGE - is the OWNERS EARS!  A price tag can't be put on what YOU LIKE - be it plain old condensor mikes and a D8, or an insanely expensive setup like I run.  When I bring my camera stuff (Canon D10, 70-200mm/f:2.8L and 16-35/f:2.8L) into a show too - I'm hauling close to $13 GRAND worth of gear in - for JUST A HOBBY - NOW THAT'S JUST FUKKIN INSANE - but OH, the tapes and photo's I come away with <BFG>)

Flowery descriptions are nice.  Take the CONSUMER GRADE CRAP out of your pre-amps and replace what you can with the best QUALITY COMPONANTS you can, and you're bound to be happier.

The goal here is -ACCURACY-, NOT COLORATION...

My $ .02

Rick

[Tim]

I've gone the oppossite route... u89s/m148/modsbm-1 because most of the taping I do is inside poor rooms, with mediocre pa systems... I don't really want an accuarte representation of crap. My playback is very clean so it all balances out.

[Jason B]

As far as Doug & Jim go, I know both of them OVER 20 years (when most people here were playing with Mr. Microphones).  

Not sure what this has to do with the subject at hand.

-JB

[Tim]

As far as Doug & Jim go, I know both of them OVER 20 years (when most people here were playing with Mr. Microphones).  

Not sure what this has to do with the subject at hand.

-JB

if you personally know Doug and/or Jim you are inherently more qualified to comment on gear.  

[Sean Gallemore]

 :badair:

[sickrick43]

As far as Doug & Jim go, I know both of them OVER 20 years (when most people here were playing with Mr. Microphones).  

Not sure what this has to do with the subject at hand.

-JB

if you personally know Doug and/or Jim you are inherently more qualified to comment on gear.  

Not at all.  Doug is quoted here, as if he were Dan Healey or something (not to slight his technical knowlege for a second, he's the ONLY GUY that touches my decks - for better or worse).  

Just commenting that I've been taping with the Oade Brothers for many years before they became the "Famous Oade Brothers Audio".  They (as well as I) learned through the time honered tradition of going out there and MAKING TAPES.  My allusion, was to TRUST YOUR GUT and your EARS.  

The only person that has to be pleased with our tapes, IS OURSELVES (unless someone is PAYING us to make 'em).

Didn't mean to OFFEND anyone - apologies all around if I DID...

Rick

[Sean Gallemore]

i'm sure you didn't

[Joe w.]

Didn't mean to OFFEND anyone - apologies all around if I DID...

Rick

I don't think you offended anyone. It is a good discussion and your opinion is certainly welcome, IMO. Now post some tapes so we can give a listen

[Tim]

we were just razzing you a bit...