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Author Topic: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?  (Read 12835 times)

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Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2006, 01:54:52 PM »
i'll take HQ 16bit over "eh" 24bit any day of the week.

there is a great market for awesome sounding 24bit A/Ds all ready, and has been for years.  If you are centering your sights on SBM1 sized 24 a/d, then it does not exist yet really.  but it will, for sure.

Offline Since85

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2006, 02:19:51 PM »
Most real (pro) studios still record 44.1/16 bit.
For me to go 24 bit:

1.  D-8 sized box with V3 quality (24 bit a/d, preamp), and hard drive/CF recording capability (1 small box only).
2.  Standardized listening format for 24 bit audio, as universal as a red book CD.

Maybe the vaporware Sonosax unit could fit the bill...

Offline Jhurlbs81

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2006, 06:42:33 PM »
Quote
Most real (pro) studios still record 44.1/16 bit.


Which real studios are you referring to?
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2006, 07:07:59 PM »
For me to go 24 bit:

1.  D-8 sized box with V3 quality (24 bit a/d, preamp), and hard drive/CF recording capability (1 small box only).
2.  Standardized listening format for 24 bit audio, as universal as a red book CD.

Ha.  Happy 16-bit listening for a looooooooong time, if not forever.
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Offline mmedley.

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2006, 09:56:51 PM »
Alot has to do with playback gear too. You won't notice the difference on your average stereo/listening device. I will only run 24/96 now. If I got the means and ability to, why the hell not capture at a maximum bit depth/sample rate? Just my fart in the wind.

PS..the comment about most studios only recording at 16/441 (and the Sax comment) were dead on.   ::) ;D

I do love the sound of the Sax > Oade mod-SBM1 enough to warrant using it again in the future though even if its only 16bit. I trust my ears and yes 16bit still has its place. Check out some of the 24bit Panic recordings though from Summer/Fall 05. That *should* make you a firm believer in 24bit...even if you don't like Panic. ;)

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Offline wbrisette

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2006, 06:32:02 AM »
PS..the comment about most studios only recording at 16/441 (and the Sax comment) were dead on.

If the sonsax arrives (it is already late to market... it was suppose to be out in October), it will be a budget question as well as a "what does it sound like"... For a few hundred dollars people were willing to pick up the MT and listen to it. The sax, won't have that luxury costing $6K. All in all, it will be a box that few people own and hear.

Now, my opinion on this topic mirrors many here. 16-bit will be with us for a while in playback due to the popularity of CDs, but if the electronic manufacturers can spark interest in 24-bit recordings using Blue-Ray or DVD??? (whatever the other one is), then 16-bit would start dying. However, since the most popular playback device is the iPod right now, I don't see a huge rush other than those of us who love gear and music, going out and demanding 24-bit recordings. As it is, there are only a handful of DVD-Audio discs and SACD discs (I know... not true 24-bits, but they do sound better than CDs), and honestly the market just isn't there for them.

In the recording realm, 16-bit might die sooner because DAT is on it's last legs and most of the new equipment is 24-bits. That's not to say people won't be running 16-bit gear for a while, but I'm glad I sold by DA-P1, AD2K+, and modSBM-1 when I did.

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Offline nickgregory

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2006, 08:26:21 AM »
but I'm glad I sold by DA-P1, AD2K+, and modSBM-1 when I did.

I second this....sold all the dat and 16 bit equipment a couple of months before the pricing bottom has dropped significantly

Offline gewwang

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2006, 09:00:30 AM »
I do love the sound of the Sax > Oade mod-SBM1 enough to warrant using it again in the future though even if its only 16bit. I trust my ears and yes 16bit still has its place.

FWIW, I've tried sax with all 3 oade mod-sbms as well as the R1 and to me and the R1 sounded better.

Offline pjdavep

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2006, 09:26:56 AM »
FWIW, I've tried sax with all 3 oade mod-sbms as well as the R1 and to me and the R1 sounded better.

I've listened to some of gewwang's Black Crowes tapes that pit the Sonosax > modSBM vs stock R1 (both 16 bit) and while there was a very, very slight difference in sound, I could not select a favorite because they were so similar.

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2006, 09:57:08 AM »
I think the winner of Bluray vs HD DVD, will ultimately pave the future of 24 bits for the mainstream public..

Offline silentmark

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2006, 10:05:48 AM »
I think the winner of Bluray vs HD DVD, will ultimately pave the future of 24 bits for the mainstream public..

Right and herein lies the rub, until the CD market is fully played out and 24bit media, players, etc are as commonplace, 16bit will be here for awhile, just my ops ...
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Offline OFOTD

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2006, 12:33:27 PM »
I think the winner of Bluray vs HD DVD, will ultimately pave the future of 24 bits for the mainstream public..

Well both support and use 24bit.  A friend at CES this year for things unrelated to audio gear asked me what 24bit was when he got back becuase he said that every new audio product from the home to portables to the car was pushing 24bit. 

I believe that 24bit recording and playback are going to come to the forefront a whole lot sooner than we all suspect.  Be it in one year or three years.  The music business needs money like the movie business needed it right before DVD's were being pushed.  With Blue-Ray or HD-DVD going to be the new standard we can expect a huge new media blitz.  Gotta have the best audio since I have the best plasma mentality. 

While I agree 16bit has sounded good to my ears for as long as I can remember its will be like those folks who still swear by vinyl.  Great sound but not the format of today or tomorrow.  The fact that there are a few units in the yard sale as well as on several other audio gear sites tells me that the days are numbered.  If 24bit isn't the beast that its expected to be those units would have been snapped up within a couple of days at the most.   When was the last period of time thatyou saw an Oade mod anything on the market for more that a week or so?

   

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2006, 02:08:45 PM »


I think they are numbered but until home internet upload speeds are increased about 10x it's still a major PITA to seed.

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Offline mmedley.

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2006, 08:26:42 PM »


I think they are numbered but until home internet upload speeds are increased about 10x it's still a major PITA to seed.

-e

Yep. I'm on Comcast..with the speed upgrade...and I push 85k up. It sure is nice to have that bandwidth for 24bit seeds/downlaods. Takes about 12 hours or so for a typical 3.5gig 24bit seed.  >:D
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Offline ghellquist

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Re: Are 16bit A/D days numbered?
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2006, 03:15:40 AM »
Aaah, but are we not mixing things up here.

First I do all my recordings at 24 bits. Not because it sounds any different from 16 bits, because it does not to my ears, but because I can keep levels low enough to be certain to never get clipping. That is basically all anything above 16 bit is needed for in my book. If you can set your levels just that perfectly exact and ride the volume 16 bit is plenty good enough. Extra much so for stealthing, because there is not very much difference between loud and weak sounds (dynamics). I do classical music which has a bit more dynamic range (difference between loud and weak) which makes setting volumes more difficult.

Next I look at the converter as such. Actually they are all at the most about 20 bits. The last few bits are only random bits due to the noise of analog circuitry. For those that show figures, 20bit true resolution is an S/N of about 120dB. Few portable devices gives that much S/N. The Edirol R1 I tested only gave about 15 bits of true resolution (about 90 dB of S/N), the rest was noise. Using that box I would never record 24 bits, as 16 bits already conveys all the information there is.

After the recording I edit the stuff in a program in a computer. Here I can EQ, compress, limit and so on before fixing down to 16bit with dither to put on a CD. Of course in this process I use the facilities in the computer, and this means that inside the program the data is 32 bit float or more.

Finally on the CD 16 bit is generally good enough. I might want more when sitting in a totally silent acoustically treated listening room with top-level equipment. Any other situation 16 bit is to my ears actually plenty, often records has a bit too large dynamic range, especially in the car. For car use I generally compress everything a bit more as otherwise the quiet passages gets drowned in noise. Stealthing recordings never has very much dynamics so they are all fine there. Remember, the sound of 16 or 24 bit is mainly constricted by the analogue circuits.

So back to the question. In my mind the limiting factor for most recordings is not the 16/24 bit digital part. Instead it is the analog circuits - low-priced or badly designed analog circuits tend to be noisy and not sound so good regardless of the converter. High-quality well-designed circuits will sound good in front of a 16 bit converter, and the only drawback is the need for the user to be a bit more careful in setting levels. But a really good user will get really good results from a 16bit machine. So if we all stay tuned and hone our skills we will get lots of good use out of 16 bit equipment for a long time to come.

Gunnar

 

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