Topic: MR1000 with and w/o preamp comps

[Nick's Picks]

here is a nice discs worth of music to download and listen to.  There are 4 filres in total, and its really just a poll of preference between 1&2, 3&4 and the overall package. Hopefully some of this will actually provide good info for the section at large.  Those age old questions of "outboard preamp???"

there is a text file in the directory that has some spoilers, somewhat.
this is not that much of a handy poll, other than Carls 3 options w/the MixPre - EAApsp2 - MR1000s onboard preamp.  my shit is thrown in there as a goof.  Its one of the 1/2 sources.  :-)  I haven't even listened yet to determine what I like, but I'll be sure to add my votes (you can vote twice).

Enjoy!
www.hydra-audio.com/files/

The music is brought to you by the Dark Star Orchestra, playing the setlist (and setting a pretty freakin' heavy mood as well) of 10-16-89 Jersey.  The content is familiar to most, which makes it easier to follow allowing one to focus on other aspects of listening....er, thats my story any way.  I'm sticking to it.

Overall experience of the show..I'll post in the review section.
files are more than 1/2 uploaded now, so i'm posting.   Remember, 4 files in total, so check back if you see less.  Comments are encouraged. 

[carlbeck]

I am voting that mono pa's suck 

[Nick's Picks]

also...where I said "terrapin", I meant to say "playin' reprise".  it was a shorter file and I thought it would work better for download times.
sorry for that typo.

[carlbeck]

I wonder what Woody would pick 

[carlbeck]

I was thinking about this & figured we needed to clarify b/c I was there & taped it but I am not sure I understand how Nick labeled this comp. So the source info is this, but I have no idea what order Nick put them in, all the recordings were DSD 5.6:

AKG C34 (110 XY card) > SD Mix Pre > MR-1000 (TRS line in, low gain)
AKG C34 (110 XY card) > EAA PSP-2 > MR-1000 (TRS line in, low gain)
AKG C34 (110 XY card ) > MR-1000 (Mic in, low gain)
Nicks 460's XY > Apogee Mini-MP > Korg MR-1

The tapes are a little boomy but believe it or not they sound better than the actual room did 

[Nick's Picks]

its not much of a comp.

samples 1 and 2 are c34>mixpre>mr1k AND jwm460>MMP>MR1
so....which is which?

and the samples of 3/4 are c34>psp2>mr1k and c34>MR1k
just a taste of whats what with and w/o a preamp in front of the big Korg.

[carlbeck]

Honestly after listening to everything I have come up with some conclusions. First of all the DSD sound better than the 16 bits for sure. There is more room spatial info & bass in the DSD master when played through the Korg deck into my system. The real problem though is it the player or the actual recording? No way to tell until we have some DSD authoring software but I will say that my playback deck (Denon 2900) is not at all bass shy in normal playback of anything so it does lead me to believe it is just the difference in DSD having more bits. Or to complicate matters even more maybe it is the Korg downsample through AudioGate, regardless it is what it is. I will continue to record in DSD mode and capture as much info as possible, let the authoring software catch up with me when it is ready, I will have 1 bit masters waiting for it when it does 

So now for the actual comp itself. I will say that any of these sources sound great to me, I would be happy with any of them personally, it isn't until you start to hear them back to back that you can come up with a preference. Source 1 is Nick's AKG's, source 2 is my C34. The only way I could tell is that my recording peaks my McIntosh amp at certain point in the song & mine is SLIGHTLY smoother, ever so slightly. So what am I saying? Well the C34 sounds alot like 460's, no shock there considering the caps but still pleasant to realize since at times I miss my 480's. So now we have the choice between the Apogee Mini-MP & the Sound Devices Mix Pre. Well pound for pound these boxes both sound pretty close & pack tons of features into their lay outs, the only thing the Mix Pre is lacking is MS capabilities. It is also lacking the ridiculous size of the Apogee boxes, I have run Apogee boxes for years & have always hated the layout but loved the sound. In this comp & I am really pleased to see that my little SD box is as good as the Apogee at a 1/4 of the size. The SD is transformer based unlike the 722 pre-amps & slightly redesigned over the MP according to Sound Devices tech papers. So yes, I am pleased with the purchase. I will continue to test it against the Mini-MP & trust me if the Apogee is the better box I will go back to one in a heartbeat, this ain't a bueaty contest, I want what sounds best. Eventually I may also try a Portico but for now I am pleased with what I got. So I picked source 2, my source but it was damn close. I could go either way & not look back.

Next up, samples 3 & 4. Well sample 3 was the world famous PSP-2 that I have been lusting over but of course can't find. Mikey Jones was kind enough to send me his & I am forever grateful to him. I needed to scratch this itch for sure, I was driving myself nuts trying to find one. So yep, sounds damn good, there is a reason these puppies are so coveted. Gotta love the tranformer sound, small package & rare as hens teeth appeal. Yep, I loved this pre-amp it is really good but I still picked sample 2 over it, they are both very very close when dithered down to 16 bit but when played back at the original DSD authored files the PSP-2 was much worse in the bass response over the SD, just too much of a good thing. Everything else rocked though so I would certainly be pleased if I had one but at least for me now the itch is scratched, I am still content with what I have. Now, this being said if one comes up for sale in the YS I would snatch it up in a heartbeat, I mean I am happy but who doesn't love a little something on the side too 

OK, so finally the mighty Korg was on it's own in sample 4. Well as we listened to everything the next morning Nick & I were very pleased with what we heard. He of course said something to the effect of "if I was you I would sell everything else & just run the Korg, screw it" but as we all know Nick is a few sandwiches short of a full picnic sometimes  While he may have been hung over from the doozey of a night we had he wasn't too far off. Honestly the Korg sounds really really good on it's own. I could/would run it as a one box solution & be pleased until I heard the SD, Apogee or PSP-2 with it. The internal pre-amps in the Korg sound mighty fine, possibly better than other bit buckets out there, who knows but they are still a little thin to me.

So I picked this sample second to sample #2.  So for me on this night I picked sample 2 first, then sample 4 & finally sample 3. Wow, for me a true shocker. Could all of this be b/c I own the stuff & obviously have an investment in it? I don't think so, I have bought & sold more gear than I can shake a stick at in the past b/c I felt it didn't sound good. I guess my worst mistake was selling my MK4's for 4022's, what the hell was I thinking of! Doh, worst mistake ever. So anyway, I am not afraid to get rid of something no matter how much it costs if I don't feel it performs. In the end, I am pretty happy with what I have, let's get some Panic up here & see how I really feel running upfront Blumlein 

[Gizby]

Sir, you have just sold me on an SD Mix Pre.

Now if only I could afford one

[Nick's Picks]

cool...
both boxes have nice flavor (the SD and the MMP).  I really like AKG>Apogee sound..., always have.  Thats just good synergy.

[Church-Audio]

Hey man your just trying to use this flawed comp to sell more Korg units! Nice try! 

[Nick's Picks]

that would be great....
if I sold them.

[carlbeck]

Hey man your just trying to use this flawed comp to sell more Korg units! Nice try! 

Sweet idea Chris but I don't sell anything unlike a few other folks on this board 

[momule]

I will continue to record in DSD mode and capture as much info as possible, let the authoring software catch up with me when it is ready, I will have 1 bit masters waiting for it when it does 

What are you archiving your DSD master on?

[Church-Audio]

that would be great....
if I sold them.

Yeah Yeah... You are getting your Korg resellers licence as we speak  

[Church-Audio]

Hey man your just trying to use this flawed comp to sell more Korg units! Nice try! 

Sweet idea Chris but I don't sell anything unlike a few other folks on this board 

Who me? 

[carlbeck]

I will continue to record in DSD mode and capture as much info as possible, let the authoring software catch up with me when it is ready, I will have 1 bit masters waiting for it when it does 

What are you archiving your DSD master on?

A LOT of DVD's  Hopefully I will figure something else out but I don't trust just leaving them on hard drive even though I have a dedicated external drive for music.

[TNJazz]

I will continue to record in DSD mode and capture as much info as possible, let the authoring software catch up with me when it is ready, I will have 1 bit masters waiting for it when it does 

What are you archiving your DSD master on?

I archive mine (5.6mhz) to an external HD and also to DVD (both "as is") as well.  The file splits are at 1gb every 11 minutes, so four chunks and the project file fit on a DVD quite nicely.  DVD blank media is so cheap, who cares how many discs it takes?  Burn it off and throw it on a spindle for later.

[cshepherd]

I've just recently started following the Korg threads & have been getting used to a new playback system before listening to the comp.  I've not been overly impressed with the move to 24/96 mastering, especially considering the extra work, effort and signal processing that goes into it.  Thanks to Carl and Nick for going through the effort of putting this together.  I know it's not always easy to find two tracks that tell the whole story.

Samples 1 & 2
I thought the differences between Samples 1 & 2 were more noticeable than what Carl talked about.  I thought the treble in Sample 1 was too much, to the point of ear fatigue.  Even with the extra treble, I thought the recording sounded closed in and a little ragged / incoherent.

Sample 2 definitely had a softer treble compared to Sample 1.  It might have been a little too soft for my ears.  Through the midrange though...especially the lower midrange...Sample 2 lacked proper definition and the speed required to propel the music along.  Sample 2 had the most bass, but it sounded bloated and sluggish on my system.  I preferred Sample 2 for overall listenability, but I thought both samples had flaws.  Thanks for the rig synergy comp, even though it proves absolutely nothing   .  It's good to hear two different rigs side by side.  Personally, I like measuring performance vs. investment dollars.   

Samples 3 & 4
The midrange opened up and the bass was no longer bloated (in comparison to Sample 2). Sample 3 was more coherent than Sample 2, allowing the music to flow more naturally.  The bass was not as strong as with Sample 2, but it seemed adequate.  The clearer low end provided a better since of pace and timing and a higher degree of transparency.

Sample 4 was notably better than the other samples on my system.  Yes, I preferred the Korg by itself.  It became apparent after listening for only two or three minutes.  I liked Sample 4 best for a couple reasons.  First...Overall Clarity.  The treble has a nice airy extension to it without being overly aggressive.  The midrange opened up even further and the sense of space around the instruments was elevated.  I also thought the bass was slightly better than Sample 3 recording as well.  Second...Dynamics.  I thought the Sample 4 recording handled the band at its loudest better than the other samples.  When the whole band came in at the end of Playin', the sound was big, open, not too bright and not falling apart.  Additionally, I thought Sample 4 had a slightly better sound stage.  Overall, it sounded like the stand was a little closer to the stage for Sample 4.  I'd also like to add that Sample 4 was the only one that gave me any sort of goosebumps.  There's a good technical measurement.

I'm looking forward to hearing more comps out of Camp Korg.  I preferred the recordings in the following order for overall sound quality...Sample 4 > Sample 3 > Sample 2 > Sample 1.  I listened to the samples four or five times over the course of two days.  I was listening on a 30 wpc Mastersound Compact 845, Sonist Concerto 2 stand mounts, an Exposure 3010 CD player with various ICs and PCs from GutWire and Atlas.

Thanks for the comp,
Chris

[TNJazz]

OK kids, I ran a comp tonight.  I'm not sure how best to present it though, so I'm open to suggestions.

The comp was beyerdynamic MC803 -> Sonosax SX-M2

One output was sent to the Korg MR1000 at 5.6mhz DFF
Two output was sent to the SD 744T at 24bit/192kHz

Should I dither these both to 44.1?  Or should I go to 24/192 with the Korg file and leave the SD file alone?  If I dither the SD to 44.1 should I Audiogate the Korg file to 24/192 and dither it to 16/44 in the same manner as the SD file?  Or should I just Audiogate it straight to 16/44?

Not sure of the best approach to this one to make it as "valid" as possible.  Suggestions?

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Thanks for doing the comp, Dirk!

As a base, I vote for the obvious, redbook.  That also levels the playing field a bit (since they're both going to get similarly resampled and dithered). I vote for audiogating the dsd to 24/192 and then using the same method on both sources to go to redbook. BUT... It would also be interesting to get a redbook version created entirely with audiogate. Perhaps that should be a different comp.

I'd also like to hear 24 bit versions of both.. I'd vote for 24/48.

Is your 744 one of the earlier lead solder based units that sounds better or one of the lead free units?

[TNJazz]

Is your 744 one of the earlier lead solder based units that sounds better or one of the lead free units?

Yes.  It also came with a nearly new flux capacitor.

OK, I will dither to 24/192 with the Korg and then take both files to both 16/44 and 24/48 respectively, using UV22HR (Wavelab).

I will also take the Korg files to 16/44 and 24/48 directly with Audiogate.

So there will be 2 comps, 16 bit and 24 bit.  Each will have 3 samples - 744 WL dithered, Korg WL dithered and Korg Audiogated.

Will try to get that knocked out today.  Have to go cut the grass first.   

[Kindguy]

Came across this thread & thought it deserved a bump. Good stuff. T+'s around.