Topic: Battery powered microphone preamps with phantom power?

[fmaderjr]

the 2x MP-1's option could be done without compromising safety margins.  IF everything goes through.

Other than better battery life, I don't see why you'd want 2 MP-1's when you could get 1 MixPre or MP-2. And if battery life were an issue, I'd rather get a cable made for an external battery than run 2 mono preamps. There isn't much discussion here of the MP-1 (although I know its a good mono pre) so most of us must feel the same way.

[Shadow_7]

Battery life is a strong consideration.  The mix pre runs 2 channels on 2x AAs.  The MP-1 runs one channel on 2x AAs.  The MP-2 has been discontinued, just like the SX-M2 that would have made most of this discussion moot.  Without a useable limiter and better battery life, I'm not really gaining any functionality by going with an external preamp.  And finding preamp shootouts is far more difficult than mic shootouts.

My main concern is whether or not the MP-1 is better than the Korgs own preamps.  I'd rather run a single two channel preamp as well, but there just doesn't seem to be any in that midrange price point anymore($500-$1000).  At least not with battery powered as a focus.  As I continue to seek out samples of all the options.  V3, little box, SX-M2, MP-2, MP-1(x2), .......

[Shadow_7]

Shure FP24 (also discontinued)

I'm still liking the MP-1's at this point.  Guaranteed channel separation.  Rugged design.  Cons, pulling from different power sources for each channel, which might leed to issues.  A V3 really would be overkill for me.  I don't need converters and meters and all that jazz since I'm already combining it with a field recorder that already has that stuff.  And once you throw in an external battery pack on that you've still got the same number of units as 2x MP-1's.

[fmaderjr]

The MP-2 has been discontinued, just like the SX-M2 that would have made most of this discussion moot. 

Not really-with some effort you could buy an MP-2 in the yard sale. That's why I mentioned it. However it seems like due to battery life, etc. it wouldn't fit your needs anyway.

The Naiant Littlebox is a great 2 channel pre that can be orderred with many options including some with great battery life. It is way cheaper than your range ($250-$400 or so depending ion the options) but everyone who has bought one loves them.

I'd recommend it if you don't need a ton of gain (the littlebox only goes up to 32 dB, I think and maybe 38 if you get the transformer option, but all the gain is veRy clean. It's quite small too.

[Shadow_7]

Oh I hear ya.  I've been eyeing that one.  Not that "I" need 60dB of gain.  But I like keeping my options open.  And without it, it might be hard to resale without taking a > 50% hit on the deal.  In terms of return on investment a $400 littlebox resold for $200 isn't much different than say two MP-1's bought at $300 each and sold at $200 each(x2). 

I've also been keeping my eye out for a used MP-2 and SX-M2, but it seems that good gear doesn't hit the used market place that often.  So either the MP-1 is good kit, or they never managed to push more than one unit off the shelf.  I can understand with the SX-M2, since it's an import item.  Thine locals probably never even heard of it.  But at least it's been placed in a graph in comparison against other knowns by at least one person.  Maybe the MP-1 is just a new item, but that doesn't seem likely since the MP-2 existed and has already been discontinued.

Anyway an email already sent to a semi-local (in state) retailer of said gear.  With extra inquiries about possible in stock, but discontinued items.  Never hurts to ask.  I had to ask to get their pricing information anyway.

[fmaderjr]

Good luck with whatever you select. Normally I wouldn't think you'd take a big hit on reselling  a Littlebox. People like them so much I haven't noticed any in the yard sale. However a problem that comes to mind is that there are so many options to choose from that most people might rather order a new one and select their own options instead of saving a few bucks buying a used one. How much of a hit a seller would take, I guess, depends on the options they ordered and how desireable that option package is to potential buyers.

Mine provides phantom power, plug in power, and powers mini-XLR mics directly (with no need for an external converter to step down phantom power). It also has a 15 dB switchable input pad in case the 5 dB minimum gain proves to be too much for a very very loud source (I haven't needed that yet) and an internal rechargeable battery that will provide phantom power for at least 10 hours and will power mini-XLR mics almost forever. I really love it.

[Shadow_7]

I hear ya, but no matter what options you get, anyone who see it by name is automatically going to think base price and not even look at the extras.  Tis the problem with things with that much customizable features.  Same with cars.  You could get a $10K car with $10K in extras($20K total), but you'll never be able to sell it for more than $10K (used, past that first year).  YMMV.

I'm also an instrumental musician looking to record instrumental music.  So I need that extra -10dB noise floor and ruler flat frequency response attributes.  Anything less is problematic.  Plus I'm looking to improve on the Korgs preamp, which are good to start with.  The naiant does appear to be good, but is it "better"?  That's the conclusion I'm trying to draw on very limited data.  Outside of buying, trying, selling there really is no way to "know".

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Perhaps I should just seek out a used SX-M2.  I'm looking for something clean and tranparent.  No coloration, just as honest sounding as a piece of tech can be.

In my experience, that is not what you will get from the sonosax.  I found it lacking in detail, and somewhat colored, when compared to the aerco and v3 during extensive tests recording a 12 string electric guitar.  That was with mg200's and mk4's.

I was surprised at what I heard, but completely convinced.  But some people love it, so go figure - recording a PA from 'the section' is a different scenario, and one I try and avoid.

[Shadow_7]

At this point it's all conjecture, I don't have much hands on with a variety of gear.  I am somewhat happy with the gear I have, and I'm looking for that next level.  The gear I have is not cheap by most standards, but it's not mega bucks either.

I got nipped by that gearslutz thing already.  Make one snide remark and the owner/moderator takes your remark, makes it it's own thread with inflamatory subject line (of HIS creation in YOUR name).  And quickly down hill from there.  I actually searched on that site for MP-1 opinions.  No hits really, but it did hit on that thread from April 2009.  Interesting to see how it's evolved over the almost a year.  Ultimately it ended with me requesting to be banned from that site.  The moderator bumping many 5yo threads to bury it low a week after.  And from what I read of it almost a year later, what I recall as a 12+ page thread is now only 3 pages.  Said moderator questioning my integrity, my saying he who questions has none, yada yada yada all unceremoniously purged.  While the other parts of that thread remain intact.  Still a POS forum due to moderation IMO.  From what was an otherwise useful forum.  As I try to purge it from my most recently visited list once again.

My only reference for the Sonosax is it's popularity, and some chart that charted it close to transparent.  More so than many other options.  That plus specs made it desireable.  But my upgrade path has taken longer than expected so it's now discontinued before I ever had a chance to sample in person.

I'm not completely against a naiant box mind you.  But with so many options, it's hard to get a reference for what "I" want/need.  And outside of the base model, there's no definitive Korg MR-1000 version or bing cosby version or other these options work well for this purpose leaving me the sole task of spec-ing out everything that I might think that I want/need.  It really should be dumbed down IMO.  Which would help with resale potential.  At a minimum there should be a fully loaded (and fully spec'd) version in addition to the base model.  Because without delving deeper into that option I don't even know IF there is an option for me.  There probably is, but what is it, and what "comparison" do I have to make that determination.  And how long will it take to just place that order?

[Shadow_7]

Well my advice of picking up a Tekkeon still stands, from my point of view.

When you're in a situation of chaining two analog stages (such as any external pre and your MR-1000), it's critical to consider why the analog stage you have is not adequate.  If it's something simple like battery life, noise, or *gain-dependent* distortion, then an external box is an easy choice.  When it's something less ascertainable about sound quality, that gets tough.

I guess battery life is a bonus option.  I'm sort of looking for 3.5 hours (reliable) per set of batteries.  Across the entire rig.  Currently I only get 2.5 hours, really only 2 hours reliable on 2100mAh NiMH rechargeables(x8).  If charged within 24 hours of using.  I have 2400mAh NiMH rechargeables too, but I really haven't stress tested them to know their real world life in relation to the MR-1000.  Not really much different IMO, or maybe it is on the whole.  Difference x8 is like running on 9x 2100mAh batteries???

The real issue is not having a usable limiter.  Although I can live with that and have for roughly 2 years already.  And the MR-1000 is known to need attenuation on a number of mics to put the gain staging in the right ball park.  Would that be gain dependent distortion or level dependent distortion?  While the onboard preamps are good they're not without fault.  An external preamp has the ability to overcome, just by being an external preamp with this unit.  It would be nice to have a fast transient response preamp.  Recording in DSD doesn't make much sense if the input doesn't have that level of detail to record.  Although still reasons to do it anyway, dynamic range and other factors like 12.5 minute skip points during playback.

Maybe I just wasn't reading the options on the littlebox right.  But I'd like full sized XLR inputs, full 48V phantom power, and full sized 1/4" TRS outputs (and/or XLR).  From there I could determine what else to get.  But it didn't seem like that was an option (or normal option) for that unit.  And it'd help if those connectors had that locking feature. 

And it'd help if it was known to be better.  I did feed the Korg with a DMP3 at one time to see how it compared.  And the Korgs internal preamps were preferred to the DMP3.  Not really that much different, but enough to have a clear winner.  So I'm probably NOT looking for a battery powered DMP3.  I want something clearly better.  Since I'm not really adding new functionality per say.  It'd be a little stupid to do all this JUST to gain a few minutes of battery life.  At which point your tekkeon recommendation would be the better option.  Although I've been eyeing the batterygeek variant for a while now.

[fmaderjr]

Maybe I just wasn't reading the options on the littlebox right.  But I'd like full sized XLR inputs, full 48V phantom power, and full sized 1/4" TRS outputs (and/or XLR).  From there I could determine what else to get.  But it didn't seem like that was an option (or normal option) for that unit.  And it'd help if those connectors had that locking feature. 

I almost didn't buy one due to being confused by all the options, but I'm glad I did. You can definitely get all those features (and more). Just call, E-Mail, or PM Jon (mshilarious) to discuss what else you might want. He's extremely helpful.

I think with no additional options and either TRS or XLR outputs it would come in at the base price too (more if you want both TRS and XLR outputs). Talk to him about the feasibility of the input transformer option for your particular equipment if you want a bit more gain (it can be made switchable if you like).

[Shadow_7]

That's nice to know.  I'm liking most of what the MP-1 has by default.  But I'd like to try one before popping $600+ on two of them.  I might still get just one MP-1.  It could come in handy to feed a mobile PA system or something.  I might even get a littlebox, but -10dB noise and more gain for other mics is desired.  Not that I currently need that, but it is desired.

I'm more picky on preamps than mics.  Not to imply not picky on mics.  I was really surprised how different preamps make different mics sound so dramatically different.  At least on the low end < $300 a channel.  More sample downloading I guess until someone returns my email monday or later.

[DSatz]

Shadow_7, if you eliminate the preamps with audibly non-flat frequency response, audible levels of distortion within the dynamic range of interest, or that have incorrect or inadequate phantom powering and/or too low an input impedance, and if you make really careful comparisons using IDENTICAL input signals (something I'll get back to in a moment), the sonic differences among preamps tend to become so small that one can reasonably doubt whether they exist or not.

You could try to compare two preamps by placing two very well-matched microphones side by side and recording the same occurrence--music, speaking voice, gunshots, jangling keys, or whatever else you like--with each microphone using one of the preamps. Take the two output signals, route them into the same two-channel A/D converter, make a two-channel recording and then (using proper dither) normalize the two signals so that they have identical levels. Then you could compare the two recordings; for that matter you could subtract one channel from the other to hear and see and analyze the response differences.

But in large part you would very likely still be seeing/hearing/analyzing the response differences between the two microphones and/or the specific positions they were in (even if they were less than 2" apart), since those differences are often an order of magnitude greater than the differences between any two high-quality mike preamps. The better any two preamps are, the more likely they are to sound the same, if you define "better" the way I and a lot of other people do (although clearly, not everyone who calls himself an engineer sees it that way).

"Mike pre shootouts" where a singer sings or a guitarist plays in front of a larger group of microphones, each feeding one channel of one preamp, are certainly a total loss; if you hear differences, you cannot tell to what extent they really reflect on the preamp, the microphone, or the microphone's position within the group. Worse yet are the ones in which someone repeats the same music or speech--no human performer is consistent enough for that to work, not even Rachael Flatt (who I still think should be accompanied by Earl Scruggs).

[Shadow_7]

But that's just it.  Not all preamps provide true 48V phantom power.  Not all preamps are ruler flat in terms of frequency response either.  And lots of them have different impedence, some even have variable impedence.  You can't take those factors away, they're a part of the preamp.  And that difference is VERY noticeable.  If you could rule out those factors then you might as well be saying that an SM58 and an SM7b are the SAME MIC.  Since they share a common component / function.

I know I'm probably hyper sensitive to this stuff.  Big picture wise it's probably of little consequence as long as the functional needs are met.  But I have this audible image of how things should sound and while my current gear is close, it's not quite there.  And the only way to get there from here is to start driving, even if it's in the wrong direction at first.

[DSatz]

Shadow_7, I think it would be great if preamps that are deficient in terms of frequency response, phantom powering, input impedance, etc. weren't bought by anyone. But my point is that then, pretty much all remaining preamps would sound alike. The same is definitely not true of microphones--so I don't think that it pays to be more interested in preamps than, say, in microphones. With preamps it's more or less like, "you have to be this tall to ride" whereas microphones and different ways of using them are like all the different rides that you get to go on.

--best regards