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Author Topic: New T amp....  (Read 29257 times)

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Offline Nick's Picks

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New T amp....
« on: March 12, 2010, 07:36:31 AM »
100w version (50w x 2). 
black aluminum case, front panel 3.5mm jack input and 1/4 headphone out.  RCA input / speaker taps in the rear.
$99 from PartsExpress. 
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-383



brand new.  I bet this sound really, really good.
makes me wonder if "high end" stereo is going the way of "high end" A/D converters.
thinking back to the Apogee AD500e in my closet, which used to be sooooo good, and now is trumped by the cheap internal conversion chips in any given hand held PCM recorder.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 07:38:06 AM by Nick's Picks »

Offline ducati

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Re: New T amp....
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2010, 10:04:32 AM »
Yeah, but the high end keeps getting better, also.  Not universally true, but better, yes.  The newest DACs from the high end companies are very, very good.

That said, I do think you can get a larger chunk of hifi for a smaller outlay nowadays.  I have a Cambridge DacMagic which is SHOCKING in it's musicality, detail, and general all-around excellent reproduction of digital.  I have compared it to the Cambridge 740i (DacMagic was far better), the Ayre QB-1 (very very close here, I liked things about both), Simaudio Supernova (Supernova was better), Simaudio 750D (Simaudio was better) and the Esoteric X-01D2 (Esoteric was better).  That certainly isn't a comprehensive evaluation, but I don't have access to everything in the high end :) The DacMagic held it's own as you went up the price scale, and in fact I'd honestly save the bucks over the Ayre and buy the DacMagic unless I had a very aggressive or bass shy system (Ayre was slightly more relaxed and had more rounded bass).  I could even see some folks (classical enthusiasts, primarily) choosing the DacMagic over the Supernova, although even for classical I preferred the Supernova.

But the thing is, the DacMagic is around $400...  To get that level of performance you would have had to spend $8-10k a few years ago--I know, as I used to own a dCS Delius.  When I first started taping 24 bit, back in '03, it took a very expensive DAC to really get your money's worth in 24 bit.  Nowadays, you can get this for under a grand...

Pretty sweet.  But just know that there is "better" out there, and there will be those people who continue to pay for it.

Offline Jimna

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Re: New T amp....
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2010, 01:55:59 PM »
yes i dont discount the mid-fi brands until i hear them anymore, the DACMagic is the perfect example.  i do think that the truly hifi brands are going to see serious thinning of the heard as the difference in a 10k unit and a 1k unit are slowly getting less and less, so much so that the 10x price tag isnt worth it, even to the audiophile that has the cash to buy and electronics to hear what they might get.  i see a radical change coming in the next decade.
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Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: New T amp....
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2010, 04:04:41 PM »
sure.., but the bar can only be raised so far, unless they are making ears better too these days.
:)

the "diminishing return" , alive and well in 2010.


Offline Jimna

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Re: New T amp....
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2010, 04:39:44 PM »
the oppo blueray player is the perfect example of how hifi cant improve on a midfi product, no matter the R&D. 


the "diminishing return" , alive and well in 2010.


^^fact
Co-Founder of F.M.Recording 
SD: Busman Audio BSC1-K1/K2/K3/K4 > Grace Lunatec V3 > Busman Hybrid R4
LD: ADK A-51TL MP > Busman Hybrid R4
+ 48 Channel Multi-track rig

Canon 5D Mark II, Canon 2x Extender Mark III, Canon 15mm f2.8, Canon 85mm f/1.8 USM, Canon 100mm Macro f2.8, Canon 16-35mm L f2.8, Canon 24-70mm L f/2.8, Canon 70-200mm L f2.8 IS, Canon ST-E2, Canon 580ex II (x2), Canon 430ex II, PocketWizard PLUS II(x4), Radiopopper PX System

http://jmimna.com/

Information is not knowledge
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Wisdom is not truth
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Music is THE BEST
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Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: New T amp....
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2010, 05:38:43 PM »
sure.., but the bar can only be raised so far, unless they are making ears better too these days.
:)

the "diminishing return" , alive and well in 2010.

True... I remember growing up how we revered the Denon, Yamaha and Klipsch products.. Basically influenced by glossy ads, and specs.  Fortunately we got wise.

But in terms of raising the bar, I was shocked at how much better my system sounded after removing the pre-amp, a decent Linn LK1.   Going squeezebox > dna125 > VR4, dumping the pre-amp made a Huge difference (especially to the soundstage).  It would be interesting to try a DacMagic in there... And of course there is the challenge of supporting the turn table.

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: New T amp....
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2010, 05:48:31 PM »
same here.
I went from a 10 year old DAC that was in the $4k range new, a pair of nearly $4k monoblocks...., cheap tube preamp with a few hundred in tubes on top.....
to a new Cambridge 640r receiver that was $800 new.   
the difference is minor, and I enjoy it just as much.  go figure.
:)
(fwiw, if I still had my big ML's, it would be a different story...some gear is more forgiving than others, as we know)

Offline ducati

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Re: New T amp....
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2010, 11:50:33 AM »
Speakers will continue to define what "sounds good" in your rig...  Your old SL3's are definitely power suckers, and want good, clean power.  A friend of mine uses big Brystons to good effect on those.  I don't think the Cambridge would do so well there.   I have a friend who has a pair of Mirage OMD-28's, and although they are good, they are certainly a limiting factor in his system.  I have heard very large differences between certain very digital front ends in my system, with more revealing speakers, and in his system the DACs end up sounding much more similar to each other.  His Mirage's are limiting, so it doesn't make sense for him to drop the $$ for a >$10k DAC.

So on one hand, as you move up the speaker foodchain, you need better and better stuff to feed them.

That said, I do agree on a certain level.  Eventually you get to "good enough" and many can live with that.  I recently found myself buying a bel canto "stack" (CD2/Dac3/Ref1000) when I had planned on spending more $$$ adding to my Simaudio Evo stack, simply because I really liked it and thought it was plenty good.  The Sim 750D would have "upgraded" my Supernova fairly significantly, but after hearing the bel cantos I thought "hell, I could live with this."  In the end I'm happier than a pig in the dirt, and even have cash leftover from my equipment sale to buy some sweet mics for my taping rig.  It may not quite reach the musical heights the Sim's do when they're in their element, but I also like more varied genres through the bel cantos.  So in that regard, they're maybe even a little "better" to me.

Some want to spend more $$, though, and I still think you're rewarded (in some cases) for doing that.  That Esoteric I mentioned above is one example.  If you listen to a lot of classical, and have a large SACD collection, I can say with great certainty that the player is "worth" the crazy ~$20k pricetag.  I certainly thought it sounded "better" than what I was used to.  But I don't have $20k to spend on a digital front end, and even if I did, I don't think I would, as I have other areas of my life which could use the cash.

So that's your point exactly, I suppose.

Interetsingly enough, freelunch, my new rig is the first system I've ever had where I liked it without a preamp.  And I do like it better that way.  The only bummer is my analog stuff has to live in a different system (unless I use an ADC).

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: New T amp....
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2010, 01:56:52 PM »
Interetsingly enough, freelunch, my new rig is the first system I've ever had where I liked it without a preamp.  And I do like it better that way.  The only bummer is my analog stuff has to live in a different system (unless I use an ADC).

Interesting..  Good to hear I'm not the only one ;)

What combination are you currently running that way?   And I'm curious which pre-amps you've tried, and how they influenced the sound.  Most people tend to look at me funny when I suggest their pre-amp may be weighing down the potential of their playback.  And hi-fi shops don't like to hear such blasphemy (understatement).  The dna125 > vr4 combo is power-matched such that I typically run at, or near, full digital volume.  So in terms of concerns about digital attenuation reducing resolution, the bits are usually all there.

It does create a problem with how to integrate the analog.  I've thought about ways to evaluate going pre-amp free with the turntable.  It would require the initial cartridge gain, especially for MC, and the RIAA EQ.  But I wonder just what the quality might be.   

I didn't see a digital attenuator with the DacMagic.  Does it have one?

Offline ducati

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Re: New T amp....
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2010, 09:56:34 AM »
Interesting..  Good to hear I'm not the only one ;)

What combination are you currently running that way?   And I'm curious which pre-amps you've tried, and how they influenced the sound. 
Currently, I have the full Bel Canto stack: CD2 transport, DAC3 DAC w/digital volume control, and Ref1000 monoblocks into a pair of Sonus Faber Cremona M's.  Bel Canto definitely makes their stuff to run without a preamp; with a preamp in between the DAC3 and the Ref1000's, the sound quality degraded noticeably.  I actually went to my dealer to shop amps; I had decided to replace my Simaudio i7, as it just wasn't letting the full beauty of my Cremona M's come through.  I had intended to stay in the Simaudio line, but really enjoyed a side session we had with the Bel Canto Ref1000's.  At that time I was listening to the BC stuff via a conrad-johnson preamp.  I played with a bunch of different configs (dealer carries Sim, BC, c-j, Rogue, primarily), and found that each time I added a Bel Canto product in lieu of another company's offering, the level of immediacy and transparency improved greatly, and removing ALL analog from the chain improved the sound yet another order of magnitude.

I was initially quite surprised at this, as I've never been a fan of running sans preamp.  I have tried twice previously in my house, once with a Cary and once with a dCS DAC.  Both times I liked having a preamp in place better.  I also tried at my friend's house with his old Wadia CDP.  Again, we preferred running a preamp. 

But the Bel Canto's digital attenuation essentially seems completely seamless to me.  I notice no loss of resolution in my system.  In fact, quite the opposite was true--as I said, the increase in transparency and immediacy were pretty startling.  It was clear to me that this was the way to configure the Bel Canto stuff, if you want to run it.  So I bought the whole kit and caboodle.

Quote
It does create a problem with how to integrate the analog.  I've thought about ways to evaluate going pre-amp free with the turntable.  It would require the initial cartridge gain, especially for MC, and the RIAA EQ.  But I wonder just what the quality might be. 
I have been considering using my SD702 to do this...  Run a phono stage directly into the 702, and feed the DAC3.  According to Bel Canto, you lose little by doing this.  It "feels" a little weird, though, I admit; at that point, I might as well record with the 702 and drop it to my hard drive...  So currently my TT stays in my all-analog all-tube "home office" rig.  It doesn't get much use, honestly, which is kinda sad as I have some wicked good LP's which I do not have a duplicate of in the digital realm.  I just keep waffling on what to do; every time I think about bringing the TT downstairs, I think, "why would I a/d this?" and then also realize, "I have no time to record and track this out" so there it stays.  LOL. 

Quote
I didn't see a digital attenuator with the DacMagic.  Does it have one?
Unfortunately, no.  I bought the DacMagic for a system which is just now shaping up.  My wife and I are finishing our basement, so I am assembling a little of a "leftover hifi" down there.  I needed a digital front end, heard good things about the DacMagic, decided to try it, and am honestly blown away by what you get for ~$500.  Depending upon the system, as I said, I didn't even notice much of a different between the DacMagic and some pretty pricey sources.  In my main system, though, it was noticeably less superior than the Simaudio stuff (at the time I evaluated the DacMagic I fed it with my Simaudio Supernova into a Pass Labs INT-30A, possibly the most revealing amp I've ever heard in my life).  It's damn good, tho.

BTW, I used to own a DNA-125.  I really liked that amp.  I had it paired with the RLD-1 preamp, which I also thought was quite good.  I've often wondered what McCormack's new stuff sounds like...  Nowhere to hear it locally anymore, tho.

If you have your system gain matched so well that you can run wide open nearly all the time, that's simply ideal, I'd think.  The one thing I've pondered over the years is that perhaps I didn't like running without a preamp in prior systems because of a impedance mismatch between my source and the amp.  In that case, a "buffer" may fix things and bring your system to a new level.  These things have some scuttlebutt right now, but others have preceded them in the US marketplace:
http://bursonaudio.com/burson_buffer_160.htm

We're kind OT now  :P

Offline Tim

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Re: New T amp....
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2010, 11:40:47 AM »
ducati - lets see some pics of that setup! sounds like a beaut
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline ducati

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Re: New T amp....
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2010, 01:56:58 PM »
I have absolutely zero interesting photos of my hifi!  With a 1 year old, it's the last thing I think to photograph.  That said, I did have one on my phone of my dog, which also had some hifi stuff int he background.  At the time the photo was taken, I believe I had just unboxed the Pass Labs INT30A, you can see it sitting on top of my Supernova.  In the end, I took the Denon AVR out of the system, as I realized I preferred to run in 2-channel mode anyway.  So I moved the PS3 into the slot taken up by the AVR, the Supernova underneath that, and the INT30A where the Supernova was.  I moved the cable box above the INT30A.

And this is the configuration that I still run today--the Bel Canto Ref1000M's are on the bottom left (they're tiny), and the CD2/DAC3 are on the bottom right. 

In the second photo, you can see a quickie I snapped of the Bel Canto stack when I had just brought it home to evaluate it.  I took the photo to send to a fellow hifi nut because I thought it was hilarious I could fit an entire hifi in the space of one integrated amp.

Sorry the photos absolutely suck donkey nuts.

Offline Tim

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Re: New T amp....
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2010, 02:26:39 PM »
beatiful rig. I love the looks of the latest BC gear. I didn't realize the SF's had that small of a foot print.
I am not showing my wife your setup because she'll wonder why I need a whole rack for all of my crap instead of just putting it in a nice entertainment center :yack:

I bet it sounds great!
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline ducati

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Re: New T amp....
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2010, 09:09:46 AM »
Ha, yeah, that was a forced purchase, which has prevented me from going the monoblock route until I moved to the bel canto's.  I did very briefly have some tube monoblocks in the corners of the room, but that wasn't very pleasing to my better half  :P

Offline L Ron Hoover

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Re: New T amp....
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2010, 12:10:20 PM »
I figured that I'd revisit this thread as I'm somewhat interested in this little gem.

How do you guys think this little guy would fare driving a 4ohm load? (bookshelf speakers)

 

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