Topic: Headphone upgrade from HD280...?

[acidjack]

I'm considering upgrading from my Senn HD280s to some possibly nicer home cans.  I'll be running them through a decent but by no means audiophile USB headphone pre/DAC out of a Macbook Pro.

Is there anything that's a real upgrade to the 280s in the $200-300 (maybe $400) range?  What I'm really looking for in a home can is something I can use for mastering - so my main goal is something that is very flat and accurate.  I use Westone 3s as my portable phones and love them, but I don't want to master on something that has that light bass boost like they do.

[raymonda]

Senn-600-650---AKG 701.......

[spyder9]

Audio Technica M50. 

 

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I concur with the 650 and M50 recs. The 701s are atrociously bright IMHO. I tried them against a set of Sennheiser eh350s (which have less bass than the 600s/650s) and they were bright then.

The 600s are great headphones, and many an engineer/mixer use them to check stuff, but I think the bass quantity on the 650s is more accurate even with the mid-bass hump on the 650s which the 600s don't exhibit. ymmv (I don't use any of these currently but have sampled the 600s/650s/701s in the past).

[Gutbucket]

I concur with the 650 and M50 recs. The 701s are atrociously bright IMHO.

I use 650s and agree the 701s are way over-bright in the upper mids to my ears. 

I find the 650s emphasize the upper bass slightly and lean a bit dark in the upper midrange/trebble, though not enough to be an issue.  It's difficult correclty juding bass adjustments on headphones, but if anything the 650's slight emphasis helps me to get in the right ballpark.  If I eq with the 650s, I often find I just need to back off the resulting trebble shelf eq by a dB or so for 'flat' translation to speaker playback. Generally I think they are about as resonably flat as it gets for phones- without calibrated personal EQ since everyone's ear resonances are different. I'm quite happy with their detail and soundstage.  If you like the Senn sound in general, you'll probably dig them, plus they can usually be found right in your target price range.

Haven't heard the M50, but I'd like to.  Isn't it a closed-back phone?  If so that's something to consider as the others mentioned are all open-back.  Nice price on the M50.

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I concur with the 650 and M50 recs. The 701s are atrociously bright IMHO.

I use 650s and agree the 701s are way over-bright in the upper mids to my ears. 

I find the 650s emphasize the upper bass slightly and lean a bit dark in the upper midrange/trebble, though not enough to be an issue.  It's difficult correclty juding bass adjustments on headphones, but if anything the 650's slight emphasis helps me to get in the right ballpark.  If I eq with the 650s, I often find I just need to back off the resulting trebble shelf eq by a dB or so for 'flat' translation to speaker playback. Generally I think they are about as resonably flat as it gets for phones- without calibrated personal EQ since everyone's ear resonances are different. I'm quite happy with their detail and soundstage.  If you like the Senn sound in general, you'll probably dig them, plus they can usually be found right in your target price range.

Haven't heard the M50, but I'd like to.  Isn't it a closed-back phone?  If so that's something to consider as the others mentioned are all open-back.  Nice price on the M50.

Yeah, it's a closed back and cheap. I think your remark about bass on a headphone are spot on. If studio monitors and general speakers are your reference, then it's very difficult to achieve that level of bass with an open back headphone. The Senn 600 line are the only things I can think of from an open back perspective (especially near his price range) that come close to being "neutral" in bass quantity. You trade the midrange and upper-bass bump for it though. That's why I mentioned the 600s as well (which I think are bass-shy, but the rest of the sound is good in a "Senn house sound" type way).

I actually had the W3's little brother, the UM3X which had slightly less bass, and I went with a set of Denon D7000s that when slightly damped will come even closer to what I think natural is above either of the Senns (well, above any of the Sennheisers at that). I almost recommended the D2000s or the D5000s, but the later has too much bass (akin to the W3's he didn't want to use), and I haven't heard the former. If you could get a demo copy of the D2000 with some music you are really familiar with, that would be an option to consider.

[Gutbucket]

I think the slight upper bass emphasis in the 650s can actually work to our advantage when trying to do post work with them, because it somewhat lessens the headphone bass translation issue when eq'ing the sometimes problematic the 'mud' range.  IMO ending up with slightly less than the ideal amount of energy in that region (and below) is a better tradeoff than a little too much.  It's easy to fall prey to dialing in a bit of extra bass that sounds good on headphones, so cans with a very slight emphasis there helps to keep the eq decisions slightly 'lean' around that region.

As for the lowest octaves, I can detect the general presence, detail and timbre easier with the 650s than on my big floorstander speakers, but eq and level decisions based on that are suspect simply because of the whole bass headphone thing in general.  Still, if I can get the trickier upper bass right, the lower bass often falls into place relatively easily.

The part were I always want to speaker check headphone mixes most closely is the upper mids and treble, because small changes made there always seem more overtly evident to me there than the bass region.

As an aside- I think that one of the bigger challenges in mastering our stuff with headphones isn't actually their frequency response curves (which can be more or less compensated for by 'learning' the sound of your phones and how the decisions made with them translate.. or by personalized headphone eqs, another topic altogether) but dynamics.  Headphone listening acts somewhat like a compressor in highlighting micro-dynamic details that aren't nearly as apparent over speakers.  That in turn has a big effect on how we hear and make decisions about not only dynamics but also timbre.  By that I mean that even if you had a tuned, personalized eq setting to get the perceived response of your prefered phones as close to that of a pair of reference monitors as possible (bass-shaker attached to your seat?), the difference in how we hear dynamics on headphones would still affect your eq choices differently than if you were using speakers.. as well as the other, perhaps more obvious things such as soundstage and the dynamics in dynamic terms alone.

[slightlys]

If you decide to pull the trigger and want to unload the hd 280s. I'll gladly take them off your hands. My friend has a pair and I have been borrowing his often enough. 

[andromedanwarmachine]

I've had a pair of HD 25s since '96...

I did recently hear a pair of Beyer DT 100's which were astonishing actually...

And there's loads of them about...

[acidjack]

Two more questions:

I assume the 650s can't be had for much less than $500, correct?  I was sort of hoping for something more like $200-300.

This is probably something I should know, but what is the difference, sonically, between open and closed-back cans?  Or put more accurately, why would anyone not want closed-back?  I would think open-back would let in a lot more ambient noise, no?  Is there some reason people prefer them?  I do notice more high-end models tend to be open-back...

Would people agree that those Beyer DT100s are a significant upgrade to the HD280?  Are they transparent-sounding or is the response more colored?

[stevetoney]

I use closed back because I want good sound isolation so I don't bother others.  I use them because I have a hearing loss (after all I'm 'tonedeaf') and my wife has acutely sensitive hearing, so at my volume if I had open back or leaky phones she's telling me to turn the effing music down.  LOL.  I've never owned a great pair of open back, but always figured open back to have a more natural airy overall sound...but yeah there's far less sound isolation either for sound going out or sounds external from coming in.

There's some discussion on the AT M50, which I just recently purchased.  You don't seem to be interested in these, so I might not be helping, but I'm pleased with their general neutrality/transparency.  They're achieving the goal that I bought them for...to use as my mastering phones and also to take to shows for monitoring.  They have a nice snug fit without being overly loose nor overly tight.  The cable is heavy gauge coiled cable with a nice beefy jack with a spring strain relief.  I bought them off the web, but found a large range of prices from close to $200 all the way down to $90.  Obviously, I went with the low price and think they're a very good deal at that price. 

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Two more questions:

I assume the 650s can't be had for much less than $500, correct?  I was sort of hoping for something more like $200-300.

This is probably something I should know, but what is the difference, sonically, between open and closed-back cans?  Or put more accurately, why would anyone not want closed-back?  I would think open-back would let in a lot more ambient noise, no?  Is there some reason people prefer them?  I do notice more high-end models tend to be open-back...

closed back headphones have problems with resonances. Some do, some don't (as much). Sometimes this works in a listeners favor, other times it is a detriment.  Steve's right that they have a much more airy sound, less muffle at any rate. Whether that's working for you or not is a different question.

As far as the 650s. You might watch head-fi and see what a used set pops up for (searching the archives is useless, people erase what they asked for which is lame IMHO).

In your price range, new, I'd look at the M50s.

[Gutbucket]

I paid $300 a couple years ago for the 650s, new after a $50 rebate.  Of all the phones I've heard, in general I far prefer the sound of most open back phones as long as there is no background room noise issue.  If outside sound, or sound leaking out from the phones to others is an issue, then closed back are superior.  One interesting factor I'll note is that very open phones do not muffle the outside sounds around you much at all so the juxtoposition of real world and reproduced sound can be odd/great/useful/or a detriment.  I can hold a normal conversation with them on with my significant other, be that good.. or bad.  If she speaks on the recording I'm listening to it can sometimes become down right confusing, which I supose is stong praise for the naturalness of both the recording and the phones.

I'm interested in hearing the M-50 for use as a closed back phone when I need one.  My 25 year old Sony MDR's are falling apart.

As for other open backs, I'd like to hear the DT880 Beyers and the new Hifiman othodynamic..
The Stax I've heard are great and I'm sure the HD800 is too but that's silly money.  I think your price range is a very good value sweet spot.

[PeteJE]

I love the Sony MDR 7506 - price is lower, but don't let that sway you, these translate great and accurately for me.

[rastasean]

I love the Sony MDR 7506 - price is lower, but don't let that sway you, these translate great and accurately for me.

thats what i thought until i got the ATm5os!!