Topic: Running Schoeps 4v on din-a bar

[MakersMarc]

So I'd run the caps in the bar, caps pointed up, right? 

[dnsacks]

a din-a bar should be similar to a ortf bar (but longer and with narrower angles) -- you could run them up (they'd angle out diagonally) and adjust the angle manually.  However, like schoeps 4vs on an ortf bar, the intent would be to run them pointing back (as if you were taping the back of the room with front address capsules) and angle the 4v capsules so they're facing out (and forward) this would give you fixed spacing and angle

[MakersMarc]

So that's preferable to vertical?

[yug du nord]

You should get a vert bar with 17cm and 20cm spacing's.  With a vert bar, the 4V top would be pointing straight up.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=161593.0


......with a standard DINA bar, the top of the mk4V would be where the front grill of a mk4 would be.  So you would run a DINA bar backwards to create the proper angle.

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                                          STAGE


               mk4v                                                    mk4
          \\\\\\ //////                                      \\\                    ///
      ///                \\\                                     \\\                ///
    ///                    \\\                                       //////\\\\\\
   
   
Do the stick figures make sense??   

[MakersMarc]

Thanks!

[dactylus]

So I'd run the caps in the bar, caps pointed up, right? 

Brian (it-goes-to-eleven) produces a V-Bar for Schoeps.  He makes a DIN / DIN(a) bar that allows both configs with one bar as well as ORTF.  I have that bar and it is well made and recommended!

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=161593.0


Email activemicrophones@gmail.com to order, or send a PM.

The Vertical bars (VBars) feature spacing for both DINA and DIN, also allowing ORTF and other angles.

[MakersMarc]

Thanks, just PMed Brian.

[Gutbucket]

I'm not sure how Brian's V-Bars work,  but just a reminder that the common TS method of running side-address mics like 4V horizontally and backwards on a 90-degree angle bar specifically intended for one particular configuration (mics attach to bar with no adjustment of angle or spacing like a Kwon bar or a Schoeps STC 4g bar) works because of the 90 degree angle between microphones remains 90 degrees when the bar is flipped around.  The spacing between capsules may be off a bit, but I'm not sure of that.

This technique will work using a DIN, DIN-A, or NOS bar of that type, all of which are standard configs with a 90 degree angle between mics, but the same will not work with an ORTF bar of that type.  When run that way, the 110 degree ORTF angle between mics becomes 70 degrees instead. (110-180 = -70)

[MakersMarc]

Thanks Gutbucket, that makes sense. Trying to reconfigure my brain backwards. Don't want to pull a Zman. 

[Gutbucket]

Ha!  Was just taping with Z last weekend but with the square furies on his mics I can't confirm if they were actually pointed forwards or backwards! 

I usually have one or two mics pointed backwards intentionally, yet this last weekend I used up all the analog channels on my deck with one mic pointed forwards and five pointed directly sideways!  Granted, two of those sideways pointed mics were omnis and one was a figure-8 forming a Mid/Side pair with the forward pointing one, but still, it just seems so awesomely ridiculous to have 5 pointing sideways and only one pointing at the stage.   

The other two sideways facing mics were supercards, used in a setup where mk41V is the preferred mic of choice due to it's very even far-off-axis pattern behavior across the horizontal plane when oriented verticallydue to the side-address capsule housing arrangement.  Mk41V is preferred because the microphones are intentionally pointed so far off-axis to the source that their 90-degree off-axis response becomes more important than their on-axis response, and the mk41V is supposedly superior in that situation to even the end-address mk41 which has excellent polar control compared to other mics.   Yet end-address Gefells and DPAs have work just fine in that roll for me, so who knows how much it really matters.  Maybe I'll find out someday.

I've never used Schoeps 4Vs or 41V, but it seems to me that running them vertically would make it easy to adjust angle without changing spacing between capsules, yet make it rather difficult to accurately visually confirm that angle, with confirmation becoming essentially impossible once the windscreens go on.

[noahbickart]

I've never used Schoeps 4Vs or 41V, but it seems to me that running them vertically would make it easy to adjust angle without changing spacing between capsules, yet make it rather difficult to accurately visually confirm that angle, with confirmation becoming essentially impossible once the windscreens go on.

This is true, it isn't much of a problem if you use the it-goes-to-eleven vertical bars, the polar pattern icon on the top of the microphone can be used to point it, and they don't move when you put the windscreen on.

[F.O.Bean]

Ive been liking the idea of running 41V vertical with DINa/DIN/ORTF spacing, and then running my mk4s front address but at DIN/NOS configs horizontally, with just ONE bar Now I've seen Brian aka it-goes-to-eleven do something very similar, so I know he'd make me that bar Now I just need the 41V's haha But I would probably buy a Rycote INVHG-mkiii shock since its meant for heavier loads than my INV6-HG shocks, and be done with it! I think the Rycote INVHG-mkiii shock could handle all [4] caps + the bars weight + windscreens weight! Would be pretty cool and very minimalistic and lo-pro/unobtrusive Wishful dreaming I guess lol

But I agree, one of Brian's V Bars would be perfect and possibly all you would need! You could ask Brian to make you just ONE bar, like I was talking about above, so you could run the 4V's vertical in DINa/DIN/ORTF, AND the 41's DIN/NOS with the same bar! Brian could confirm whats possible with the vertical and front address configs/spacings for just ONE bar! Otherwise, Id get [1] V Bar for your 4V's, and [1] DINa bar for your mk41s

[dactylus]

For those of you running 4v's or 41v's what windscreens would you use that would provide a suitable pocket of "dead air' surrounding the capsule vs the traditional end address capsules and the pocket of dead air directly in front of the capsule when placed in a windscreen?

Indoors I don't envision a problem here, outdoors could be another matter entirely if using "heavy foam & fur", vertically oriented, active mics.  The traditional windscreens that we use would not provide an "open pocket of dead air" for these vertical, (side-addressed) capsules.

Here is one expensive solution:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=745935&gclid=CNXXt9KZrMwCFQ6maQodpIsLWQ&is=REG&ap=y&m=Y&c3api=1876%2C91438732682%2C&A=details&Q=

[dactylus]

Multitude of available options - scroll down the page.

http://rycote.com/microphone-windshield-shock-mount/modular-windshield-kit/

http://rycote.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Modular-Windshield-Kit.pdf

[F.O.Bean]

For those of you running 4v's or 41v's what windscreens would you use that would provide a suitable pocket of "dead air' surrounding the capsule vs the traditional end address capsules and the pocket of dead air directly in front of the capsule when placed in a windscreen?

Indoors I don't envision a problem here, outdoors could be another matter entirely if using "heavy foam & fur", vertically oriented, active mics.  The traditional windscreens that we use would not provide an "open pocket of dead air" for these vertical, (side-addressed) capsules.

Here is one expensive solution:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=745935&gclid=CNXXt9KZrMwCFQ6maQodpIsLWQ&is=REG&ap=y&m=Y&c3api=1876%2C91438732682%2C&A=details&Q=

That's my dream windscreen setup right there Or [4] of the BBG's/WindJammers I already have the INV6 Lyres too! Maybe one of these days I can afford [2] of those stereo windshield kits, since I mainly run DINa/DIN/ORTF, those would be perfect for me! Although they're meant for ORTF[I think] mainly & M/S, so I wonder if there would be enough space to run DINa/DIN, since the caps would sit up further up in the windshield running 90* compared to running ORTF@110*

Dactylus, do you think the Stereo Windhsield Kits would be better than the single BBG/WJ method for what I do, since they would allow my whole setup to be windshielded Seems like a single BBG/WJ on each [4] of my caps would be better overall, but I have zero experience with them, and you do

EDIT: I LOVE the Duck Rain Cover too! I would feel sooo much more comfortable with all of that in those super shitty conditions haha

[F.O.Bean]

I did some measuring, and with the Schoeps ORTF Stereo Windshield, it seems very possible to run DINa/DIN/ORTF on active bars without any problems if you got one without the Conn Box and removed one of the lyres, leaving just one lyre setup in the middle so that an active bar can be used!!! And should even have enough room to piggyback another active bar on top, so that I could run BOTH of my setups, with just ONE stereo windshield, and ONE lyre setup, with a pair of the Rycote PiggyBack Clips Pretty badass! Too bad they're $600/each and Id need [2] lol

Id love to hear John Willett or D Satz or anyone opinions really, that could tell me if its better to get a BBG/WJ for each [4] of my caps, or get [2] of the stereo windshield kits since everything is windshielded together Obviously this isn't happening for me ANYTIME soon, if ever, but I would DEF like to know just in case I win the lottery or something haha

[dactylus]

For those of you running 4v's or 41v's what windscreens would you use that would provide a suitable pocket of "dead air' surrounding the capsule vs the traditional end address capsules and the pocket of dead air directly in front of the capsule when placed in a windscreen?

Indoors I don't envision a problem here, outdoors could be another matter entirely if using "heavy foam & fur", vertically oriented, active mics.  The traditional windscreens that we use would not provide an "open pocket of dead air" for these vertical, (side-addressed) capsules.

Here is one expensive solution:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=745935&gclid=CNXXt9KZrMwCFQ6maQodpIsLWQ&is=REG&ap=y&m=Y&c3api=1876%2C91438732682%2C&A=details&Q=

That's my dream windscreen setup right there Or [4] of the BBG's/WindJammers I already have the INV6 Lyres too! Maybe one of these days I can afford [2] of those stereo windshield kits, since I mainly run DINa/DIN/ORTF, those would be perfect for me! Although they're meant for ORTF[I think] mainly & M/S, so I wonder if there would be enough space to run DINa/DIN, since the caps would sit up further up in the windshield running 90* compared to running ORTF@110*

Dactylus, do you think the Stereo Windhsield Kits would be better than the single BBG/WJ method for what I do, since they would allow my whole setup to be windshielded Seems like a single BBG/WJ on each [4] of my caps would be better overall, but I have zero experience with them, and you do

EDIT: I LOVE the Duck Rain Cover too! I would feel sooo much more comfortable with all of that in those super shitty conditions haha

Bean,

I've decided to keep my BBG's & Windjammers and give them another shot at an upcoming outdoor festie.  I'll try and report back on that.  I purchased the 22cm BBG version mainly because I wanted to use them on a pair of Nevaton MK49's and the MK49's would NOT fit into a 20cm BBG.  The storm where I had the issues with the BBG was ferocious and I was running Milab VM-44 Links with them that night...  Bottom line, I want to make sure that everything is "sealed tightly" against the wind at the back of the BBG's and then try them again in windy conditions.  It was dark, pouring down the rain, with lightning & high winds for that unsatisfactory attempt at taming the wind.  I was NOT focused on the BBG's, but rather keeping my gear and myself dry, which was NOT successful either.      I may have been partly at fault for the wind-whipped recording, I don't know.  I didn't think so at the time, but I might have contributed to the problem.

If I recall correctly the rear, rubber, mic entrance grommet for the BBG is very inflexible, which I don't like, so I have a few ideas on how to improve that.  Let me verify that first though.  The same "rubber mic entrance hole" on the Movo's is very much to my liking and I think more flexible than the BBG's.

David

[dactylus]

I did some measuring, and with the Schoeps ORTF Stereo Windshield, it seems very possible to run DINa/DIN/ORTF on active bars without any problems if you got one without the Conn Box and removed one of the lyres, leaving just one lyre setup in the middle so that an active bar can be used!!! And should even have enough room to piggyback another active bar on top, so that I could run BOTH of my setups, with just ONE stereo windshield, and ONE lyre setup, with a pair of the Rycote PiggyBack Clips Pretty badass! Too bad they're $600/each and Id need [2] lol

Id love to hear John Willett or D Satz or anyone opinions really, that could tell me if its better to get a BBG/WJ for each [4] of my caps, or get [2] of the stereo windshield kits since everything is windshielded together Obviously this isn't happening for me ANYTIME soon, if ever, but I would DEF like to know just in case I win the lottery or something haha

The Rycote Piggyback clips look interesting!

Why would you need 2 of the windshields if you could run both active bars in one windshield?

[F.O.Bean]

I did some measuring, and with the Schoeps ORTF Stereo Windshield, it seems very possible to run DINa/DIN/ORTF on active bars without any problems if you got one without the Conn Box and removed one of the lyres, leaving just one lyre setup in the middle so that an active bar can be used!!! And should even have enough room to piggyback another active bar on top, so that I could run BOTH of my setups, with just ONE stereo windshield, and ONE lyre setup, with a pair of the Rycote PiggyBack Clips Pretty badass! Too bad they're $600/each and Id need [2] lol

Id love to hear John Willett or D Satz or anyone opinions really, that could tell me if its better to get a BBG/WJ for each [4] of my caps, or get [2] of the stereo windshield kits since everything is windshielded together Obviously this isn't happening for me ANYTIME soon, if ever, but I would DEF like to know just in case I win the lottery or something haha

The Rycote Piggyback clips look interesting!

Why would you need 2 of the windshields if you could run both active bars in one windshield?

Just because I regularly record at 2 separate stages at the majority of the festivals that I do! And thanks for all of the info Dactylus I'll certainly be patiently waiting to hear your results

[MakersMarc]

Real stupid question, going to run these today. On a standard din bar, the red dot should be pointed outwards parallel to the bar, right....and not up? 

[F.O.Bean]

red dot/pattern pointing OUTWARDS horizontally on the DIN bar

Just like Noah did here with his MK41V
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=174052.0

[MakersMarc]

Thanks Bean!

[F.O.Bean]

Thanks Bean!

No problem Marc! Is this your 1st outing with the Schoeps? Cant wait to hear it! Have fun and Happy Taping!

[MakersMarc]

No, just with the 4vs. Thanks. 

[gormenghast]

No, just with the 4vs. Thanks. 

Awesome kit, Marc.   

[MakersMarc]

Thanks for all the advice putting this together Bill. I only ran them the wrong direction  of habit during one set. Couldn't figure out why my levels were so low.  good thing it was free and folk.

[MakersMarc]

For those of you running 4v's or 41v's what windscreens would you use that would provide a suitable pocket of "dead air' surrounding the capsule vs the traditional end address capsules and the pocket of dead air directly in front of the capsule when placed in a windscreen?

Indoors I don't envision a problem here, outdoors could be another matter entirely if using "heavy foam & fur", vertically oriented, active mics.  The traditional windscreens that we use would not provide an "open pocket of dead air" for these vertical, (side-addressed) capsules.

Here is one expensive solution:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=745935&gclid=CNXXt9KZrMwCFQ6maQodpIsLWQ&is=REG&ap=y&m=Y&c3api=1876%2C91438732682%2C&A=details&Q=

I have a pair of Moke dead rats, kicked down for free (thanks again Moke!) and ran them yesterday in 25-30 mph gusts, over the DPA screens, no wind noise whatsoever, running horizontally on a din-a bar. So at that velocity, no issues with a cheap solution. Maybe they won't cut it at 40, but frankly at that point, phasing will be so bad that it won't matter.