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Author Topic: LD vs SD hyper cards?  (Read 6326 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2016, 01:00:05 PM »
Directional mics can behave in unpredictable ways when overly close to a reflective boundary.  I don't think you can boundary mount a directional mic directly onto the wall and have it work correctly unless arranged so that the mic's primary axis is parallel to the wall, but that only works on the back wall if you are pointing the mics directly sideways, 180 degrees apart.  All available directional boundary microphones as well as boundary mounts for standard directional mics that I'm aware of orient the microphone in such a way so that the microphone's primary pickup axis is parallel to the boundary surface, "glancing across it" rather than pointing outwards from it.

If I'm up against the back wall I'd seriously consider boundary mounted omnis which work surprisingly well from further away than one might think and in rooms which would seem inappropriate for that.

Hypers can work further back, just like near-spaced 8's can.  It's situation and room dependent.  If using a minimal angle between the microphones hypers will pickup more sound arriving from directly behind, but less from the sides than either a cardioid or supercard.  That could be advantageous if recording in a long but narrow room with slap echo from the sides yet less problematic 'verb from behind.  There was a music venue around here which was like that (City Limits in Delray Beach, the second one, now gone for a number of years).  That room was tall and very deep but rather narrow with hard concrete walls and loud bars to either side of the otherwise prime center recording location.  If not recording from onstage or up very close, this kind of strategy would've applied there.  I planned to try near spaced 8's there for that reason, but usually arranged to record from on stage or up close and didn't get the chance to do this from further back before they closed.

Like Jon mentions a baffle only works at mid and high frequencies unless it's massively large.  In a seated venue with an empty front row and the mics setup up close but low, the seat backs of the front row will reduce audience noise somewhat like a rear baffle.  In audible terms it sort of reduces the presence of the audience and pushes them further away so they no longer sound "closer and louder than the music" during applause and during the quiet parts.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 04:46:31 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2016, 04:08:13 PM »
CorFit Chris,
Have we confused you enough? lol.
Further confusion: What airbladder says should counter what I said. He says try the LD's, I said earlier, specifically for your Hyper question, go with SD's. I will then add to what airbladder says in the affirmative.
If what you want to try are LD mics, buy some and see how they work in your situations. My opinion was a direct contrast between the 414 Hyper setting vs using my Beyer M201's. I have never owned ck63's, but of course have heard recordings made with them. kindms can chime in here, but he usually says the LD's are smooth and buttery while he feels more "attack" using the 460's. I feel that is one basic difference between LD's and SD's. The size of the transducers just make it so the LD's have a "larger, smoother" tonality than SD's. I can't recall if it is the Schoeps or Neumann designer who claims LD's have no place in live recording. Whichever one it is, they are of course, opinionated toward their research and designs.

In the end, we all tape in different environments with different acoustics and varying types of music; when it comes to choosing mics, you have to go with your gut not head sometimes!
music IS love

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2016, 04:59:34 PM »
SD's typically have better behaved polar patterns than switchable LDs.  That's Jörg Wuttke's (Schoeps) argument for SDs over LDs.  Does that matter for us?  Not if you like the the recordings you are making with your favorite LD, but it is a factor to be considered.  Most important is how each mic performs of all those actually under consideration.

The super/hyper position on the ADK-TL is a favorite among tapers (myself included) for good reason. It works great, sounds great and the mics are well built and inexpensive.  I suggest finding a pair of TLs for $500-$700 bucks and see how LDs work for you.  They may be all you ever want or need. 

If you want to try other things, then you can pickup some SDs like the AKG 63's or sell them and move on to more expensive LDs like the Neumanns or more expensive SDs like Schopes, etc.  But the TLs are an inexpensive way to try LDs, and they have a great color-free transparent sound.  They have been a favorite around here for more than a decade for good reason.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 05:02:31 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline DSatz

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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2016, 09:21:45 AM »
a cuppla things:

- There are nice, clear textbook definitions for the terms "supercardioid" and "hypercardioid" but most manufacturers use them only as general indications. People are more familiar with the term "hypercardioid" so manufacturers tend to prefer it. Most microphones that claim to have either pattern actually fall somewhere between the two, often closer to supercardioid. I'm not sure that I even know of any actual hypercardioid microphone on the market today; if there is one, its pattern would resemble a lop-sided figure-8, with its rear lobe only 6 dB less sensitive than its main/front lobe rather than the more typical 10 or 11 dB.

- Very few microphones have the same pattern at all frequencies. The biggest single thing I wish everyone understood about microphones is this: When the pattern of a microphone differs at different frequencies, then correspondingly, that microphone's frequency response will differ from its "official" frequency response as a function of the angles at which sound arrives. There can't be one without the other. When manufacturers give the "pattern" of a microphone, they're usually describing its midrange behavior (1 kHz), but there are enormous differences among microphones as to how well the pattern is maintained across the frequency spectrum. That's a critical characteristic for live, on-location stereo recording with only two microphones.

Studios, on the other hand, don't usually use microphones in closely-spaced or coincident pairs. They don't care whether the type of microphone that they use for vocal soloists will work for X/Y or M/S or ORTF. People who do what we do should be wary about being influenced by the mike choices that studios make for solo voices or instruments. If you're going to look at the choices studio engineers make for their microphones, the place to look instead would be, what do they use for "room mikes" (= overall miking, which is sometimes used as the basis for a mix).

- People talk about LD vs. SD, and that's an important distinction, but single- vs. dual-diaphragm capsules is at least equally important. Nearly all large-diaphragm condensers have dual-diaphragm capsules--and as a result of this near-total overlap in categories, many people misidentify the characteristics that each of those two categories causes. Single-diaphragm capsules often have better pattern consistency across the audio spectrum (i.e. the quality that matters most, next to frequency response, for stereo pickup with two coincident or closely spaced microphones), while in the range of patterns we're talking about right now, dual-diaphragm microphones often have more bass. The thing is, you can add bass in post (or even in real time while recording), but you can't equalize away a bad polar pattern.

And actually I was too lenient in what I said two sentences ago: No large-diaphragm, dual-diaphragm capsule can ever (according to the laws of physics) have pattern consistency equal to that of a good small, single-diaphragm capsule. So if you're determined to use large-diaphragm microphones, you should understand that you're cutting yourself off from the technically superior choices for two-mike stereo location recording.

You may well get "more bass" from the dual-diaphragm mikes in this part of the pattern range; many small "hypercardioids" are designed primarily for dialog recording or other speech pickup (whether they're labeled that way or not), and have rolled-off low-frequency response. But with dual-diaphragm microphones the patterns "bloom" (spread out) at low frequencies, which will causes a closely-spaced or coincident pair of such microphones to pick up bass in nearly equal amounts and in phase. As a result the bass gets reproduced in mono or near-mono, greatly reducing the spaciousness of the recording. One really good thing about microphones that maintain a narrow directional pattern down to the lowest audio frequencies is that the bass that is picked up, even though it may be less loud, will be less "correlated" (similar in content and arrival time) between the stereo channels. You can boost that kind of bass in post or playback, and within reason, it won't sound boomy or artificial. Whereas if your bass pickup is ample but mono, there isn't much you can do to make that sound as good.

--best regards
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 08:44:02 AM by DSatz »
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Offline Chilly Brioschi

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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2016, 05:51:56 PM »
There is no slap echo or nodal response if your mic is *on* the wall.  Near the wall can get a bit dangerous.

Baffles are only effective according to their size, so you aren't likely to bring a big enough baffle to make a difference at low frequencies.  If you only want to cut down on rear chatter, they might be somewhat effective.

In practice, there are a few darn good recordings...  one of Bela Fleck & the Flecktones with AKG 414s from the rear wall of Irving Plaza, another of David Gans with a few members of Railroad Earth from the back wall of a house party 
Not touching the wall, but somewhere between one and three feet in front of it.

I remember seeing these and wanting a pair of spaced Crown PZM boundry mics to wall mount for comparison.


http://www.amazon.com/Crown-PZM6D-Pressure-Boundary-Microphone/dp/B00AAO9SR2/

But I digress...

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2016, 08:28:14 PM »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline HealthCov Chris

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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2016, 01:40:27 PM »
CorFit Chris,
Have we confused you enough? lol.
In the end, we all tape in different environments with different acoustics and varying types of music; when it comes to choosing mics, you have to go with your gut not head sometimes!

Ha, I've learned to prepare myself for responses on this site.  Actually, all of this info is what I was hoping for.  I like all the encouragement towards the ADK TL, but my budget insists on a financing option as I am completely unable to save money with a hobby like this.  I am going to get a pair of LD multi-pattern mics for diversity sake.  Thinking about AKG 314.

However, I am wondering if a solution to my current issue of wanting more vocal clarity in "less than perfect" conditions would be to put a single shotgun mic in the middle of my AKG 460s (ck61).  Any thoughts on this?
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2016, 02:11:19 PM »
CorFit Chris,
Have we confused you enough? lol.
In the end, we all tape in different environments with different acoustics and varying types of music; when it comes to choosing mics, you have to go with your gut not head sometimes!

Ha, I've learned to prepare myself for responses on this site.  Actually, all of this info is what I was hoping for.  I like all the encouragement towards the ADK TL, but my budget insists on a financing option as I am completely unable to save money with a hobby like this.  I am going to get a pair of LD multi-pattern mics for diversity sake.  Thinking about AKG 314.

However, I am wondering if a solution to my current issue of wanting more vocal clarity in "less than perfect" conditions would be to put a single shotgun mic in the middle of my AKG 460s (ck61).  Any thoughts on this?
Check out Gutbuckets oddball mic techniques thread: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=96009.0
OPvewr the last 4-6 pages he/we have been discussing center channel mic's. To meet teh criteria of teh stereo zoom typically that uses Omnis on the outside with either one card or supercard in the middle facing forward (and he has tried a card/supercard facing backward too.) From actual experience, I can tell you we (kindms and I) have uised an AKG ck8(460 body) in the middle a few times, twice using it as the MID mic with an AKG414XLS/ST fig 8 pattern as the SIDE. We have also tried the ck8 in the middle with two 414's split in Omni as a three mic mix. We liked that mix very much. I suspect using cards split with a ck8 in the middle might pull in the vocals or center imaging as you ask, however, the cardiod outside them would have a more directional L/R than using Omnis (inherently). That said, here are lionks to each of the shotgun blends I mentioned:
Deep Banana Blackout 2015 CK8 in middle with 414 fig 8 as side: https://archive.org/details/dbb2015-10-11.MS_flac24
Phil n Friends: 414's split Omni ck8 middle: https://archive.org/details/phil2016-03-15.414ck8.flac24
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

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Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI x2; Sony PCM-M10

 

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