Topic: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 3

[johnw]

In the new manual, I see that linking is not an option under custom mode. I'm not sure if it was ever listed in the prior versions, but I would really really like to see Sound Devices make this feature available if possible.

[noahbickart]

In the new manual, I see that linking is not an option under custom mode. I'm not sure if it was ever listed in the prior versions, but I would really really like to see Sound Devices make this feature available if possible.

You can do it in custom, just not if the Gain is set to Basic.

Between this and the strange 96db gain issue in Basic, one has to begin to wonder why Sound Devices is trying so hard to prevent people from using this box as a simple 6 channel ISO recorder.

Are they trying to protect the 633's market share?

[johnw]

In the new manual, I see that linking is not an option under custom mode. I'm not sure if it was ever listed in the prior versions, but I would really really like to see Sound Devices make this feature available if possible.

You can do it in custom, just not if the Gain is set to Basic.

Between this and the strange 96db gain issue in Basic, one has to begin to wonder why Sound Devices is trying so hard to prevent people from using this box as a simple 6 channel ISO recorder.

Are they trying to protect the 633's market share?

What's the 96 dB gain issue?

[MIQ]

It was loud onstage (soulive with scofield see for a matrix of the mk22 and mk3 sources: http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=593684), but nothing the mixpre6 couldn't handle via its xlr ins.

This is a nice sounding recording Noah. I'm enjoying the NOS imaging and spaciousness of the wide omnis. Good stuff!  Thank you for sharing it.

MIQ

[b_curl]

This. That's what I thought I was getting when I got my MP3. A simple replacement for my mixed-pre D > m10 setup. Simple ISO recorder. An all in one unit.

Perhaps I'm too much of an amatuer, but the inbuilt complexity and always needing to refer back to threads for which setting should be basic/advance blah blah, for simple two channel recording with dials that control the gain. My unit doesn't even remember the previous set up when I turn it off.

All teething problems, I hope, that can be solved or offered via firmware later.

Perhaps just a simple gain mode would do it? Just ISO tracks

In the new manual, I see that linking is not an option under custom mode. I'm not sure if it was ever listed in the prior versions, but I would really really like to see Sound Devices make this feature available if possible.

one has to begin to wonder why Sound Devices is trying so hard to prevent people from using this box as a simple 6 channel ISO recorder.

Are they trying to protect the 633's market share?

[fanofjam]

We shouldn't think twice or worry in the slightest about not using "Kashmir" preamps (or any preamp for that matter). When a condenser microphone provides an appropriately "hot" signal, using a microphone input stage will only risk overload and, usually, add noise as almost all microphone amplifier have the highest THD + Noise specifications at minimum gain. Running directly to the Line Inputs is one less gain stage with far less overall THD + Noise.

Pardon me for calling it a common misconception, but the idea running the signal through a preamp because it will somehow 'flavor' the sound beneficially is not a best practice. The theoretical best sound between the microphone capsule and recorder should be a "straight wire" and every device placed in between are additional source of noise and distortion. It's fine to 'enjoy the sound' of a preamp when it makes sense to use one for needed gain, but not if you are inserting it into the signal path and operating it at the setting that produces the least optimal THD + Noise.

I understand your point in terms of achieving optimal distortion/noise results, but that's not everyone's ultimate goal, so I wouldn't call it 'best practice'.  It's only a best practice when your goal is to minimize noise and distortion. 

To your point about flavor and the concept of 'best sound' there's the lab version of best sound that can be measured on oscilloscopes and sound meters (which you call theoretical best sound), but then there's the practical best sound.  I've always and will always rely more on my ears than theory to determine what sounds best to me.  We all know that preamps do indeed have different 'flavors' and that's a legitimate selection factor in the specific preamp to include in a chain...or whether to include one at all.  A great example is the 'silk' setting on the Neve Portico.  So, to the point, I wouldn't consider it 'best practice' to exclude a preamp to minimize noise if my recording doesn't sound as good to my ears because, say, I couldn't put it through the Portico's 'silk' magic. 

[datbrad]

I've been thinking that there are two things very unlike typical Sound Devices products going on with these recorders. The first thing is that since the first 7xx series recorders were released, the only other recorders they put out were true analog mixers with integrated recorders. None of these had anything close to the bumpy start the mixpre 3 & 6 are going through. It's only been out for 2 months and the number of corrections to documentation and firmware fixes is entirely unlike any product they've introduced before. Not to mention things that were discovered by users that should have been surfaced and resolved before going to market. I am confident SD will eventually clear up the bulk of odd issues being reported, but just imagine if these were made by Tascam. The level of disdain voiced from our corner of the market would be deafening. It's only because of their past products reliability that so much patience is being shown by tapers, historically a brutally critical bunch with little tolerance for crap like this. The second thing is it could be that for podcasters and videographers this unit is marketed for, few of these issues would even come up. I can't imagine SD ever intended the Mixpre recorders to face conditions the 7xx series are designed to withstand along with workflows are easy enough to follow while running from the path of an avalanche at 12000ft holding a boom pole. I'm sure these issues can mostly be resolved via firmware, but in hindsight they should have gotten a few units in the hands of some beta testers from our camp to field test them before the big unveiling. Just my .02.

[noahbickart]

In the new manual, I see that linking is not an option under custom mode. I'm not sure if it was ever listed in the prior versions, but I would really really like to see Sound Devices make this feature available if possible.

You can do it in custom, just not if the Gain is set to Basic.

Between this and the strange 96db gain issue in Basic, one has to begin to wonder why Sound Devices is trying so hard to prevent people from using this box as a simple 6 channel ISO recorder.

Are they trying to protect the 633's market share?

What's the 96 dB gain issue?

When using Custom mode with Gain set to Basic, the range is 0 - 96 db, whereas in advanced it is 0 - 72. SD won't say where this extra gain is coming from (is it digital?), or whatever one can't just have access to the preamp gain to the ISO tracks.

[fanofjam]

I've been thinking that there are two things very unlike typical Sound Devices products going on with these recorders. The first thing is that since the first 7xx series recorders were released, the only other recorders they put out were true analog mixers with integrated recorders. None of these had anything close to the bumpy start the mixpre 3 & 6 are going through. It's only been out for 2 months and the number of corrections to documentation and firmware fixes is entirely unlike any product they've introduced before. Not to mention things that were discovered by users that should have been surfaced and resolved before going to market. I am confident SD will eventually clear up the bulk of odd issues being reported, but just imagine if these were made by Tascam. The level of disdain voiced from our corner of the market would be deafening. It's only because of their past products reliability that so much patience is being shown by tapers, historically a brutally critical bunch with little tolerance for crap like this. The second thing is it could be that for podcasters and videographers this unit is marketed for, few of these issues would even come up. I can't imagine SD ever intended the Mixpre recorders to face conditions the 7xx series are designed to withstand along with workflows are easy enough to follow while running from the path of an avalanche at 12000ft holding a boom pole. I'm sure these issues can mostly be resolved via firmware, but in hindsight they should have gotten a few units in the hands of some beta testers from our camp to field test them before the big unveiling. Just my .02.

I agree with everything you said, except the part in the middle when comparing Tascam and Sound Devices.  SD has a proven track record of fantastic customer service.  People are patient with them because they've earned their reputation.  Tascam, not so much.  So, yeah when it comes to dealing with these types of issues, you're going to be much more patient with a company that actually listens and responds quickly. 

[Jonmac]

There's a good video by Curtis Judd,on setting up the Mix Pre 6 here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_fzuu0m7OE

[Todd R]

When using Custom mode with Gain set to Basic, the range is 0 - 96 db, whereas in advanced it is 0 - 72. SD won't say where this extra gain is coming from (is it digital?), or whatever one can't just have access to the preamp gain to the ISO tracks.

It's probably simpler, though there isn't clarity from SD on how things are operating together.  But the trim gain stage in advanced mode provides 6db to 76db of gain.  The faders can provide an additional 20db of gain.  So it seems very likely that Basic gain, whether in basic mode or custom mode, is simply using both the trim gain stage and the fader gain stage controlled as one, so 76+20 = 96db of gain.  Whether the first 20db of gain in Basic gain mode comes from the fader stage or comes from the Kashmir trim gain stage doesn't seem to be addressed.

Someone here awhile back posted that Basic gain uses only 6db of analog gain and the rest of the available gain was stated to be digital, I took from the response that he was saying digital scaling (like normalizing with software in post).  I've never found anything on that coming from Sound Devices, but personally I find that really hard to believe.  Bad practice and seems very unlikely to meet signal to noise specs.  If I were to guess, this is misinformation based on a misunderstanding of analog-controlled (analog) gain vs digitally controlled (analog) gain.  That is gain from a typical analog transistor or op amp or whatever gain stage controlled by an analog trim pot (knobs on the front, e.g.) vs the same gain stage controlled digitally, which control aside is still analog gain.  Digital gain (scaling) to me seems very unlikely.

Sorry, last bit is fairly off track from the post about the 96db of gain, but the scuttlebutt on discussion boards seems to make people worried about what is going on with gain in basic gain mode.  It seems very likely that the gain is trim gain + fader gain yielding up to 96db of gain.  Beyond that, I think SD makes quality gear and wouldn't probably configure one of their products user modes in a way that can cause noise levels to go through the roof.  More input from them might calm fears, but I'd guess there's little to worry about. 

[Todd R]

I've been thinking that there are two things very unlike typical Sound Devices products going on with these recorders. The first thing is that since the first 7xx series recorders were released, the only other recorders they put out were true analog mixers with integrated recorders. None of these had anything close to the bumpy start the mixpre 3 & 6 are going through.

The new mixpre's seem to me to be very much a scaled back version of the 6-series mixer/recorders, so it doesn't seem like much of a departure from their previous products in that sense.  For cost reasons (probably, or market differentiation), they got rid of the separate trim control for each channel and used a single trim control (via menus or the side multi-function headphone knob) to control all of the channels.  Now as you say, they've made a bit of a leap and departed from having analog trim pots to having digitally-controlled gain.

What's going on seems to be a miss on their part of marketing coupled with an engineer's view of how users will respond.  Marketing in the sense that it seems they thought the serious users who had such fervent concerns about how they could control and use the mixpre would have instead opted for the 7xx series of recorders or the more professionally oriented 6-series mixer/recorders.

Engineer world view in that they needed to cut costs and differentiate these new mixpre recorders from their other stuff by simplifying the design (and cost) and doing things like removing the separate trim pots for each channel, leaving the separate knobs but requiring the trim to be controlled via menu or headphone knob.  From an engineering standpoint, this doesn't seem like a big deal.  The mixpre series is so unbelievably quiet that fine tuning trim gain doesn't seem very necessary.  Set it up so you're close with plenty of headroom and you're fine, even recordings that top out at -20dbFS won't have any noise concerns even after you normalize up to 0dbFS.  The self-noise of the microphones used in recording will be more of an issue in the recording chain than the noise of the mixpre, even when recorded at very low levels.  But this in an engineer's view it seems to me, and it turns out that actual users don't want to change the way they've done things, regardless of whether those old workflows matter at all with recorders such as these that are so clean. 

[MakersMarc]

Bless all you early adopters, this thing would have driven me batshit.

[dallman]

I've been thinking that there are two things very unlike typical Sound Devices products going on with these recorders. The first thing is that since the first 7xx series recorders were released, the only other recorders they put out were true analog mixers with integrated recorders. None of these had anything close to the bumpy start the mixpre 3 & 6 are going through. It's only been out for 2 months and the number of corrections to documentation and firmware fixes is entirely unlike any product they've introduced before. Not to mention things that were discovered by users that should have been surfaced and resolved before going to market. I am confident SD will eventually clear up the bulk of odd issues being reported, but just imagine if these were made by Tascam. The level of disdain voiced from our corner of the market would be deafening. It's only because of their past products reliability that so much patience is being shown by tapers, historically a brutally critical bunch with little tolerance for crap like this. The second thing is it could be that for podcasters and videographers this unit is marketed for, few of these issues would even come up. I can't imagine SD ever intended the Mixpre recorders to face conditions the 7xx series are designed to withstand along with workflows are easy enough to follow while running from the path of an avalanche at 12000ft holding a boom pole. I'm sure these issues can mostly be resolved via firmware, but in hindsight they should have gotten a few units in the hands of some beta testers from our camp to field test them before the big unveiling. Just my .02.

I would agree that Tascam would be vilified, but I don't agree with the assessment. I have a lot of Tascam decks and I really like each and every one of them, but you are on your own. I contacted them about an issue on my DR680MKII, and after 11 emails I finally got a response that said if they received my complaint from enough people they would consider a firmware upgrade.

In contrast I own 2 SD units, the USB Pre2 and the MixPre6. Any time I have emailed a question, I have received a personal response addressing my question within a day. So they are just very different types of company's with different philosophies on how they address their markets which may also be different.

As far as the bugs go on the MixPre6, I think it's great to be involved in the bugs and fixes. What a great way to learn and understand the deck. Now that is not for everybody, but this is a new deck that really can do a great deal and be many things to many people. I cannot see how the various issues could have been avoided when you have this broad of a range of users and uses. Not in todays firmware driven recording environment. That said, if someone is not happy with the deck, they can return it or just wait on purchase. Being involved in the initial stages is not for everyone. This deck can be Basic, Advanced, Custom Set and Preset. Each is probably not 100% developed yet, and could have flaws.

Lastly, these pages are filled with lots of great information. Todd R had posts that taught me the best way to set the deck for how I wanted to use it and I have recorded 6 channels without issue, and continue to learn about flexibility and capability. But there also are pages of incorrect information, speculations and outright errors in the posts. But this is a forum where we discuss this stuff, so the pages should have mistakes and speculations. I have posted incorrect information in error occasionally , not on purpose of course and in trying to be helpful, and again, I have learned much through others experience. The best advice I think is for each person to look at what is best for themselves in terms of plunging in now or waiting. In addition, reading these pages will give lots of answers to lots of questions, but read carefully and take opinions with a grain of salt. There often are topics that have no one right answer and there are topics that do have one correct answer.

[dogmusic]

Considering the deafening silence following the latest firmware revision, I figure I'm not alone in being very disappointed that the concerns of audio enthusiasts were hardly addressed. It's understandable since this unit is really geared for videographers and podcasters and so the fixes in the new FW v1.11 seem mainly for them.

We may have to wait awhile for even the simplest of additions. For example, even my Tascam DR-05 displays file information so I can see the size of the recorded file and the time I recorded it.

And when will I be able to turn off those loud beeps that occur when I start and stop recording and scare the bejeezus out of me?

But it comes down to this: what I really like about my MixPre-6 and why I will wait until these and other minor irritations are fixed is that it just sounds so good!