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Author Topic: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats  (Read 8261 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2017, 03:44:48 PM »
taperdav, you still around?  Wondering if you'll ever dare ask another question at TS after the row this one stirred up!

I strive to capture the moment the way it is presented, not with various whistles and bells designed to alter the sound as we are hearing it in the audience.

Hey Nak, I always enjoy hearing about what motivates tapers to record, and differences in philosophy about doing so.  Mind if I dig a bit and ask a few questions?

I think I understand your stated goal laid out in the first half of that statement.  I take it to mean aiming for reproducing the aural experience you had at the live event, in such a way that the listener can close their eyes and imagine themselves standing were you were when you recorded it.  Is that a fair assessment?  What I'm curious about is the second half of that statement.  Can you flesh out the whistles and bells a bit for me?
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2017, 04:08:37 PM »
I couldn't care less about your feud about who makes more money, who gets more ass or who the better father is, but I was curious enough to take the time to download both of your offerings and sample them both.  All I care about is what sounds better.

The first problem I hear here is that one of you is posting apples and the other is posting oranges.  Get it together and make it a fair competition.   Here's what I'd like to see: Decide on a recording situation that you either both have or are willing to do...and be honest.  Both  recordings need to be either inside (decide on the size and type of the venue) or outside (decide on the size and type of venue).  Next is positioning.  One of you at 20 feet and the other at 75 feet isn't a fair test.

Additionally, you both need to supply an anal report, so we know what we're listening to.  I forgot who's was who's, and don't care, but the one labeled BHIC... had the anal report attached, the one labeled DR0000... did not.  I will refer to those labels going forward.

I listened to both at various points during the recordings in the same manner (maintaining the same volume and listening through Sennheiser HD380 Pro headphones).  Like I indicated above, both recording situations were far to different to make a fair comparison on the equipment used to record it.  I could easily draw a conclusion from what I've heard, but it means nothing because of positioning and environment.  Granted, there will never be a truly fair comparison until both rigs are in the same 1 square foot footprint recording the same thing, but since you two would probably kill each other if in the same proximity, that isn't going to be possible.  Given that you are both overloaded with cash, however, I would propose that you get together in a legal taping situation and do just that in order to settle this once and for all.

I know you are both interested in my opinion, since I gave both recordings a listen, and I will reluctantly give it to you, but not without further explaining that the venue, environment and position means EVERYTHING when comparing sound, and NONE of those things were aligned with these particular recordings.  Got that?  I mean, do you both truly understand that?
That being said, I found the presence of the DR0000 to be very raw and vibrant, while the BHIC was more natural and pleasing to the ear.  Two VERY different kinds of sound, and both subject to personal taste.  BHIC, unless it was something else, try not to touch the cables or allow them to be knocked around...or handle the deck.  I believe I heard more handling noise that I prefer.  DR0000, did you have a low cut on?  You need more bottom end tones.  AGAIN...these are NOT fair comparisons.  Get it together and try again.  If you can't be in the same place at the same time, I would suggest choosing a band that is consistent in their sound and venue type on the same tour (a good example of that would be Phish at the 13 show MSG run...but be in the same location).  Dead & Company is another good example of consistency in sound.  You need to agree on an arena (size matters), and stadium (size and shape matters) or shed....club...etc.

And for cryin' out loud, try and have fun doing it!

***Incidentally, I have no money (due to a divorce and a vindictive cunt), so if either of you big spenders want to help me pay my bills, I'm not too proud to accept the help***

 :headphones: :cheers: :headphones:


hmmmmm. taping side-by-side, to me, seems asinine, as the entire point of ***stealth*** taping is for the taper to find the best position, according to *their* experiences, and to get the best capture they know how. to tell either taper that they "have" to be in the same section of real estate, thats MIC STAND attitudes right there, and we all know how I feel about those......


you call it "all things being equal", and that's one of my main problems with a mic-stand designation...that you're relegated to 0.05% of the real estate in a venue, which is inherently limiting.

OR, if you really want to do a side-by-side....sure...but you'd also have to make that one weighted (30-40% max), as by telling both tapers to stand next to each other, you're removing a component of the stealth tapers life experience. not allowing them to "do what they do", and instead "you stand here". so a 2nd "do it your way" recording should be weighted more in the 60-70% range. as that would represent the full knowledge of what the taper does, not relegating them mic-stand style.

there's no doubt in my mind that my Ben Harper has much more clarity, oomph, range and "breathes" better than daspy's. his truly sounds like a compressed mess. throw in that I can ***see*** the variations on my EQ, and it makes it very easy to explain the *why*

I'm sure daspy has pulled great tapes in the past (there's your 'compliment', pookie), but his Bottlerock Ben Harper is not one of them.  it's "solid", but if it's an example of his unfettered excellence, then I'm snickering all the way to the bank.


oh yeah, never taped Phish or the Dead, and not about to add ramen to my diet at this stage of the game ;)


overall, you have many fair points.....and I *am* having fun, isn't that kinda obvious? :D

also have been known to sponsor tickets and computers and hard drives and software purchases for folks in the past.

'cuz when you grow the  hippy lettuce as good as my recordings, you suddenly have a LOT more friends who aren't broke.  (been told that mine is better than the shops in town, which is plenty good enough for me)


only 20 less snatches, and it's been barely up 12 hours vs. nearly 2 months.

to be fair, mine is a headline vs. festival set, no, I'm not so dense to think that those are equal either.



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Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2017, 04:14:10 PM »
  Since you are computer illiterate and can't even manage to upload your shows


you mean "since you seem to struggle with both syntax and context"???

clearly, I'm computer literate...because I'm here.

and pretty sure I uploaded a show just last night.

what I'm getting at...did you mean to say "haven't learned how to create a torrent yet"?

yeah, I'm sure that's what you meant....



fuck you're easy.

and it shows.
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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2017, 04:21:43 PM »
I couldn't care less about your feud about who makes more money, who gets more ass or who the better father is, but I was curious enough to take the time to download both of your offerings and sample them both.  All I care about is what sounds better.

The first problem I hear here is that one of you is posting apples and the other is posting oranges.  Get it together and make it a fair competition.   Here's what I'd like to see: Decide on a recording situation that you either both have or are willing to do...and be honest.  Both  recordings need to be either inside (decide on the size and type of the venue) or outside (decide on the size and type of venue).  Next is positioning.  One of you at 20 feet and the other at 75 feet isn't a fair test.

Additionally, you both need to supply an anal report, so we know what we're listening to.  I forgot who's was who's, and don't care, but the one labeled BHIC... had the anal report attached, the one labeled DR0000... did not.  I will refer to those labels going forward.

I listened to both at various points during the recordings in the same manner (maintaining the same volume and listening through Sennheiser HD380 Pro headphones).  Like I indicated above, both recording situations were far to different to make a fair comparison on the equipment used to record it.  I could easily draw a conclusion from what I've heard, but it means nothing because of positioning and environment.  Granted, there will never be a truly fair comparison until both rigs are in the same 1 square foot footprint recording the same thing, but since you two would probably kill each other if in the same proximity, that isn't going to be possible.  Given that you are both overloaded with cash, however, I would propose that you get together in a legal taping situation and do just that in order to settle this once and for all.

I know you are both interested in my opinion, since I gave both recordings a listen, and I will reluctantly give it to you, but not without further explaining that the venue, environment and position means EVERYTHING when comparing sound, and NONE of those things were aligned with these particular recordings.  Got that?  I mean, do you both truly understand that?
That being said, I found the presence of the DR0000 to be very raw and vibrant, while the BHIC was more natural and pleasing to the ear.  Two VERY different kinds of sound, and both subject to personal taste.  BHIC, unless it was something else, try not to touch the cables or allow them to be knocked around...or handle the deck.  I believe I heard more handling noise that I prefer.  DR0000, did you have a low cut on?  You need more bottom end tones.  AGAIN...these are NOT fair comparisons.  Get it together and try again.  If you can't be in the same place at the same time, I would suggest choosing a band that is consistent in their sound and venue type on the same tour (a good example of that would be Phish at the 13 show MSG run...but be in the same location).  Dead & Company is another good example of consistency in sound.  You need to agree on an arena (size matters), and stadium (size and shape matters) or shed....club...etc.

And for cryin' out loud, try and have fun doing it!

***Incidentally, I have no money (due to a divorce and a vindictive cunt), so if either of you big spenders want to help me pay my bills, I'm not too proud to accept the help***

 :headphones: :cheers: :headphones:


hmmmmm. taping side-by-side, to me, seems asinine, as the entire point of ***stealth*** taping is for the taper to find the best position, according to *their* experiences, and to get the best capture they know how. to tell either taper that they "have" to be in the same section of real estate, thats MIC STAND attitudes right there, and we all know how I feel about those......


you call it "all things being equal", and that's one of my main problems with a mic-stand designation...that you're relegated to 0.05% of the real estate in a venue, which is inherently limiting.

OR, if you really want to do a side-by-side....sure...but you'd also have to make that one weighted (30-40% max), as by telling both tapers to stand next to each other, you're removing a component of the stealth tapers life experience. not allowing them to "do what they do", and instead "you stand here". so a 2nd "do it your way" recording should be weighted more in the 60-70% range. as that would represent the full knowledge of what the taper does, not relegating them mic-stand style.

there's no doubt in my mind that my Ben Harper has much more clarity, oomph, range and "breathes" better than daspy's. his truly sounds like a compressed mess. throw in that I can ***see*** the variations on my EQ, and it makes it very easy to explain the *why*

I'm sure daspy has pulled great tapes in the past (there's your 'compliment', pookie), but his Bottlerock Ben Harper is not one of them.  it's "solid", but if it's an example of his unfettered excellence, then I'm snickering all the way to the bank.


oh yeah, never taped Phish or the Dead, and not about to add ramen to my diet at this stage of the game ;)


overall, you have many fair points.....and I *am* having fun, isn't that kinda obvious? :D

also have been known to sponsor tickets and computers and hard drives and software purchases for folks in the past.

'cuz when you grow the  hippy lettuce as good as my recordings, you suddenly have a LOT more friends who aren't broke.  (been told that mine is better than the shops in town, which is plenty good enough for me)


only 20 less snatches, and it's been barely up 12 hours vs. nearly 2 months.

to be fair, mine is a headline vs. festival set, no, I'm not so dense to think that those are equal either.

I guess you are afraid of the competition.  You use  idiotic comparisons like downloads on one site to file size to emphasize your "superiority".  Good luck, go back under your rock. 

Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2017, 04:22:32 PM »

I listened to 1 song.  As I said, it doesn't completely suck but one song is enough.  Has been deleted, no need to waste space.  I think the issue is your playback.  I don't need to turn it up to 40% to get high enough volume here.  Maybe  if you had a better stereo good recording would sound better,but then again you won't put your money behind it.  I will.  If you think it sounds good that should be good enough for you.  Personally, not impressed.


again, you're not reading what I am saying in a coherent fashion



your recording, before the volume knob hits the halfway mark, it becomes a muddy mess. or, it sounds like shit. 

that's with a flat EQ, played back thru a 3000 watt system. 2 1400 watt Crown amps, bridged parallel mono. a couple of 90lb. Yamaha 18" subs. and 2 800w Cerwin-Vega PA speakers with horns (not 'mids', horns do a much better reproduction job than tinny paper speakers).

mine, while nearly as loud as yours at that level, can continue to be turned up to 80-90% and still sound clean. that means 'not distorted/compressed sounding'.

perhaps you have too many bullshit bells and whistles between your mic and decks when recording, or you don't have decent post-production knowledge.


I master ALL of my stuff with the volume cranked to 80-90%. that's where the warts shine the brightest, and where the worst flaws reside.

WHY?

because anything that sounds stellar with the volume cranked, is going to sound ***even better*** at half-volume.


your recording sounds like it came from the "loudness wars" of the early 00's.....mine sounds straight out of the mid 90's, when shit was still allowed to breathe.
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2017, 04:23:14 PM »
  Since you are computer illiterate and can't even manage to upload your shows


you mean "since you seem to struggle with both syntax and context"???

clearly, I'm computer literate...because I'm here.

and pretty sure I uploaded a show just last night.

what I'm getting at...did you mean to say "haven't learned how to create a torrent yet"?

yeah, I'm sure that's what you meant....



fuck you're easy.

and it shows.

Impressive, you have learned how to access the internet and upload a torrent.  Brilliant.  How about something a bit more complicated that that.   :iamwithstupid:

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2017, 04:25:23 PM »

I listened to 1 song.  As I said, it doesn't completely suck but one song is enough.  Has been deleted, no need to waste space.  I think the issue is your playback.  I don't need to turn it up to 40% to get high enough volume here.  Maybe  if you had a better stereo good recording would sound better,but then again you won't put your money behind it.  I will.  If you think it sounds good that should be good enough for you.  Personally, not impressed.


again, you're not reading what I am saying in a coherent fashion



your recording, before the volume knob hits the halfway mark, it becomes a muddy mess. or, it sounds like shit. 

that's with a flat EQ, played back thru a 3000 watt system. 2 1400 watt Crown amps, bridged parallel mono. a couple of 90lb. Yamaha 18" subs. and 2 800w Cerwin-Vega PA speakers with horns (not 'mids', horns do a much better reproduction job than tinny paper speakers).

mine, while nearly as loud as yours at that level, can continue to be turned up to 80-90% and still sound clean. that means 'not distorted/compressed sounding'.

perhaps you have too many bullshit bells and whistles between your mic and decks when recording, or you don't have decent post-production knowledge.


I master ALL of my stuff with the volume cranked to 80-90%. that's where the warts shine the brightest, and where the worst flaws reside.

WHY?

because anything that sounds stellar with the volume cranked, is going to sound ***even better*** at half-volume.


your recording sounds like it came from the "loudness wars" of the early 00's.....mine sounds straight out of the mid 90's, when shit was still allowed to breathe.

It's your playback system.  Don't need to spinal tap the sound to make it sound good.  Again its an idiotic comparison.   :iamwithstupid:

Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2017, 04:29:21 PM »
DR0000, did you have a low cut on?  You need more bottom end tones.


yes, and even with the lo-cut (at 80hz, -12db), 98hz was STILL peaking to +12dB, pretty much making mine sound like daspys, so I stripped that bitch out.

if you move your bass knob ever so slightly to the right, it will come back for ya.....

looking at the EQ now, with a flat playback. all frequencies from 40hz to 625 are bouncing between 0 (40hz) and +8 (63hz, 98hz, 250hz)....there's not much more headroom there for "more bottom end tones". none are below 0, and none are above +8.

that's a pretty healthy range from here.

for daspys, all of his bass is well over +4...with less bounce. too much saturation, you can't hear strings be plucked, AND his low end makes the mids sound screechy and the highs sound compresssed like a college radio broadcast.

sorry, but that's what it sounds like from here.
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Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2017, 04:31:45 PM »

I guess you are afraid of the competition.  You use  idiotic comparisons like downloads on one site to file size to emphasize your "superiority".  Good luck, go back under your rock.

I already won round one.

pretty sure you were buying into putting your BH up against mine, go read your earlier words (along the lines of you claimed I wouldn't even listen, which I not only did, but I then picked it apart, wart by wart)

neither your kid NOR your ex-wife care for you.


that says more than I ever could.
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2017, 04:32:17 PM »
for the record (back on topic)...I'm here on behalf of "team internals".


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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2017, 04:32:52 PM »
Furby buy real speakers or are you just saving money there too.

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2017, 04:35:57 PM »

I guess you are afraid of the competition.  You use  idiotic comparisons like downloads on one site to file size to emphasize your "superiority".  Good luck, go back under your rock.

I already won round one.

pretty sure you were buying into putting your BH up against mine, go read your earlier words (along the lines of you claimed I wouldn't even listen, which I not only did, but I then picked it apart, wart by wart)

neither your kid NOR your ex-wife care for you.


that says more than I ever could.

you won nothing, just a legend in your own mine.  my kid is here and read all this and asked me why you are such an idiot.   You can have my ex,  still better than your 48 year old piece of trainer trash.  I will be recording Ben this weekend twice, indoors and outdoors.  Why did you go anyway, I recall you dissed me because Ben sucked.   :iamwithstupid:

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #57 on: July 26, 2017, 04:36:11 PM »

It's your playback system.  Don't need to spinal tap the sound to make it sound good.  Again its an idiotic comparison.   :iamwithstupid:

I also patch a cd player into the 8-track of the '75 Bonneville station wagon in the yard (with that horribly lossy cassette tape connector put into an 8 track adaptor), listen on the cpu speakers, headphones AND my normal home stereo.

or, FIVE different systems of varying quality, to make sure what I put out there ***sounds good on all of them***

do you do such?

no, because you're only concerned with your limited hearing and what it sounds like to you, because you're all about you.


your Ben Harper is a compressed, burpy, processed mess. (we won't even get into "how the fuck do you continually jostle your equipment during an hour long set? do you have COPD or something?")

them's the facts, jack.

better luck next time.
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2017, 04:37:41 PM »
Why did you go anyway, I recall you dissed me because Ben sucked.   :iamwithstupid:


no, I dissed Ben because you suck.

again, comprehension is clearly not your strong suit.

neither is recording shows.
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2017, 04:45:21 PM »
Why did you go anyway, I recall you dissed me because Ben sucked.   :iamwithstupid:


no, I dissed Ben because you suck.

again, comprehension is clearly not your strong suit.

neither is recording shows.

Enough of this, you are too stupid for your own good.  Sure glad you haven't reproduced.  Time for you to try and get that  GED before its too late.   :iamwithstupid:

 

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