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Author Topic: Recording 100-person choir in the Romanian Atheneum  (Read 836 times)

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Offline florian.ardelean

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Recording 100-person choir in the Romanian Atheneum
« on: October 25, 2017, 07:50:40 AM »
Hello guys!

I'm not really new to the forum as I've been watching the gear section for quite a while, but this is one of my first posts.

I have an exciting gig coming up, recording a 100-person choir in the Romanian Atheneum, for a TV ad. There will also be 4-5 instruments on the stage, possibly a string quartet and a piano.

We will have around 400 people in the audience, paid extras.

I attached a photo of the location. It's a building of great historical importance in my country, and its acoustics are famous.

This is a big project, I'm looking forward to it :) and it will be shot on sunday, just 4 days from now.

What would your ideal set-up be for this?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 09:26:50 AM by florian.ardelean »
Recorders: SD 744T Tascam HDP2 Sony D50 Olympus LS100 Zoom H2 Tascam IM2
Mixers: SD 422 SD 302 Mackie VLZ4
Microphones: Rode NT2A x 2 - Sanken CS1 - Senn MKH415T x 2 - Senn MKH40 - AKG D190 - Sennheiser MKE-2-Gold - Sennheiser MKE 40 - Audio Technica CC417
Headphones: Sennheiser HD280 x 2 - KRK KNS 8400 x 2 - Beyer 880 - Senn HD 590 - Senn HD201
Headphone amps: Sound Devices HX3 - Presonus HP4
Studio: Protools 9 HD2x2 - Digidesign C24 - Tascam 1804 - Mbox Mini 2 - Macbook with Reaper
Monitoring: JBL 4675Cx3, JBL 8340Ax2, Behringer B2030Px3
Subwoofers: Altec Lansing LFx3, JBL 18', Dynaudio BM14s
Macpro 1.1, MBP 13 2011, HP xw8600 x 2
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Offline muj

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Re: Recordinc 100-person choir in the Romanian Atheneum
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2017, 09:33:24 AM »
Blumlein-Pfanzangel

Offline florian.ardelean

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Re: Recordinc 100-person choir in the Romanian Atheneum
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2017, 02:58:28 AM »
Would a pair of rode nt2a in figure-of-eight mode work well for this?
Recorders: SD 744T Tascam HDP2 Sony D50 Olympus LS100 Zoom H2 Tascam IM2
Mixers: SD 422 SD 302 Mackie VLZ4
Microphones: Rode NT2A x 2 - Sanken CS1 - Senn MKH415T x 2 - Senn MKH40 - AKG D190 - Sennheiser MKE-2-Gold - Sennheiser MKE 40 - Audio Technica CC417
Headphones: Sennheiser HD280 x 2 - KRK KNS 8400 x 2 - Beyer 880 - Senn HD 590 - Senn HD201
Headphone amps: Sound Devices HX3 - Presonus HP4
Studio: Protools 9 HD2x2 - Digidesign C24 - Tascam 1804 - Mbox Mini 2 - Macbook with Reaper
Monitoring: JBL 4675Cx3, JBL 8340Ax2, Behringer B2030Px3
Subwoofers: Altec Lansing LFx3, JBL 18', Dynaudio BM14s
Macpro 1.1, MBP 13 2011, HP xw8600 x 2
Storage: Facilis Terrablock 24D

Offline kuba e

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Re: Recordinc 100-person choir in the Romanian Atheneum
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2017, 06:30:23 AM »
It is beautiful hall. Unfortunately, I do not have the experience of recording in such a spaces. Perhaps someone more experienced will join. I'm also curious about the advice.

Offline muj

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Re: Recordinc 100-person choir in the Romanian Atheneum
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2017, 07:20:53 AM »
Would a pair of rode nt2a in figure-of-eight mode work well for this?


yes.

Offline John Willett

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Re: Recordinc 100-person choir in the Romanian Atheneum
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2017, 08:01:28 AM »
I would use a single MS rig or an ORTF pair.

My own mics for this would be a Sennheiser MKH 40/30 MS or MKH 40 ORTF pair or a Gefell M 300 ORTF pair.

Offline Moke

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Re: Recordinc 100-person choir in the Romanian Atheneum
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2017, 10:42:55 AM »
Have you asked about client expectations in what they'd like to achieve? This makes a big difference in how to rig for the recording.
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Offline florian.ardelean

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Re: Recordinc 100-person choir in the Romanian Atheneum
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2017, 10:51:26 AM »
They don't really know much about sound, so I have a free hand.

I'm thinking of trying out the Blumlein technique, and I'll also try to rent a schoeps MS rig. I'll run that into a 744T, and genlock that with a TASCAM HDP2 which will be used for instrument pick-up (I have some shotguns and lavalier capsules for this, I'll see what works best)

Also I will plant a Zoom H2 and Olympus LS100 to get hall ambience & the audience.

I'm thinking of using the Sony D50 to capture the piano.


What are your thoughts about this?

My mics are:

Sanken CS1
Sennheiser 415 x 2
Sennheiser MKH40P48
Rode NT2A x 2
Dynamic AKG 190 x 3
Lavalier capsules MKE40, MKE-2-gold

I'm thinking of renting the Schoeps CMC 641+CCM8
Recorders: SD 744T Tascam HDP2 Sony D50 Olympus LS100 Zoom H2 Tascam IM2
Mixers: SD 422 SD 302 Mackie VLZ4
Microphones: Rode NT2A x 2 - Sanken CS1 - Senn MKH415T x 2 - Senn MKH40 - AKG D190 - Sennheiser MKE-2-Gold - Sennheiser MKE 40 - Audio Technica CC417
Headphones: Sennheiser HD280 x 2 - KRK KNS 8400 x 2 - Beyer 880 - Senn HD 590 - Senn HD201
Headphone amps: Sound Devices HX3 - Presonus HP4
Studio: Protools 9 HD2x2 - Digidesign C24 - Tascam 1804 - Mbox Mini 2 - Macbook with Reaper
Monitoring: JBL 4675Cx3, JBL 8340Ax2, Behringer B2030Px3
Subwoofers: Altec Lansing LFx3, JBL 18', Dynaudio BM14s
Macpro 1.1, MBP 13 2011, HP xw8600 x 2
Storage: Facilis Terrablock 24D

Offline florian.ardelean

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Re: Recordinc 100-person choir in the Romanian Atheneum
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2017, 10:57:24 AM »
I would use a single MS rig or an ORTF pair.

Knowing myself, that will always leave me wondering "what if I used another configuration?" as I'm quite new to this...

My own mics for this would be a Sennheiser MKH 40/30 MS or MKH 40 ORTF pair or a Gefell M 300 ORTF pair.

Unfortunately I only have one MKH40, no figure-of-8. Was thinking of using the NT2A in ORTF, but I never used blumelin before, so I'm curious about that too... so many optons, so few microphones :)
Recorders: SD 744T Tascam HDP2 Sony D50 Olympus LS100 Zoom H2 Tascam IM2
Mixers: SD 422 SD 302 Mackie VLZ4
Microphones: Rode NT2A x 2 - Sanken CS1 - Senn MKH415T x 2 - Senn MKH40 - AKG D190 - Sennheiser MKE-2-Gold - Sennheiser MKE 40 - Audio Technica CC417
Headphones: Sennheiser HD280 x 2 - KRK KNS 8400 x 2 - Beyer 880 - Senn HD 590 - Senn HD201
Headphone amps: Sound Devices HX3 - Presonus HP4
Studio: Protools 9 HD2x2 - Digidesign C24 - Tascam 1804 - Mbox Mini 2 - Macbook with Reaper
Monitoring: JBL 4675Cx3, JBL 8340Ax2, Behringer B2030Px3
Subwoofers: Altec Lansing LFx3, JBL 18', Dynaudio BM14s
Macpro 1.1, MBP 13 2011, HP xw8600 x 2
Storage: Facilis Terrablock 24D

Offline kindms

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Re: Recordinc 100-person choir in the Romanian Atheneum
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2017, 11:19:17 AM »
stunningly beautiful room
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Recordinc 100-person choir in the Romanian Atheneum
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2017, 01:32:15 PM »
I would use a single MS rig or an ORTF pair.

Knowing myself, that will always leave me wondering "what if I used another configuration?" as I'm quite new to this...

My own mics for this would be a Sennheiser MKH 40/30 MS or MKH 40 ORTF pair or a Gefell M 300 ORTF pair.

Unfortunately I only have one MKH40, no figure-of-8. Was thinking of using the NT2A in ORTF, but I never used blumelin before, so I'm curious about that too... so many optons, so few microphones :)
Go with Rode Fig 8 crossed (X-Y but not 90, maybe 110') positioned directly above the stage lip hanging from the Proscenium OR on a stand going high so the AUD isn't in the line of site.
Use your lavaliers on the soloists
Not sure what's left to Mic the piano with. Maybe the MKH40.
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Offline goodcooker

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Re: Recordinc 100-person choir in the Romanian Atheneum
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2017, 01:36:08 PM »
Do you have free reign to place mics wherever you like? If it's a video TV shoot I would imagine not.

Placement that is allowed to accommodate camera angles will limit what you can use and where you will put it.

If getting the best sound were the only desire I would use a Blumlein pair of figure 8s close to the performers head high or higher and a flanking pair of very wide split omnis.
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Offline thatjackelliott

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Re: Recordinc 100-person choir in the Romanian Atheneum
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2017, 03:36:46 PM »
In my meager experience, good halls where good music have been performed in for years will have been recorded in for a long time. And the various engineers will have cracked this nut and figured out how to capture the good sound. "See those anchors up there? That's where we hang our Decca tree," kind of experience. Is there anyone there who can point you to the local tonmeister/radio station engineer/recordist who might have some words of wisdom to impart?

Offline florian.ardelean

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Re: Recordinc 100-person choir in the Romanian Atheneum
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2017, 04:44:54 AM »
Is there anyone there who can point you to the local tonmeister/radio station engineer/recordist who might have some words of wisdom to impart?

Great idea! I will ask. We're going there tomorrow to do some tests. Will keep you posted. Thanks!
Recorders: SD 744T Tascam HDP2 Sony D50 Olympus LS100 Zoom H2 Tascam IM2
Mixers: SD 422 SD 302 Mackie VLZ4
Microphones: Rode NT2A x 2 - Sanken CS1 - Senn MKH415T x 2 - Senn MKH40 - AKG D190 - Sennheiser MKE-2-Gold - Sennheiser MKE 40 - Audio Technica CC417
Headphones: Sennheiser HD280 x 2 - KRK KNS 8400 x 2 - Beyer 880 - Senn HD 590 - Senn HD201
Headphone amps: Sound Devices HX3 - Presonus HP4
Studio: Protools 9 HD2x2 - Digidesign C24 - Tascam 1804 - Mbox Mini 2 - Macbook with Reaper
Monitoring: JBL 4675Cx3, JBL 8340Ax2, Behringer B2030Px3
Subwoofers: Altec Lansing LFx3, JBL 18', Dynaudio BM14s
Macpro 1.1, MBP 13 2011, HP xw8600 x 2
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Recordinc 100-person choir in the Romanian Atheneum
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2017, 06:30:40 AM »
Given that this space is famous for its acoustics, I would stay far away from X-Y, and don't spot-mic the instruments unless you really need to.  One pair main pickup to cover most of the group and capture the space, and maybe a stereo pair close on the piano if placement has to be compromised for the shot.  John's suggestion of ORTF or MS would be good choices, but as you said you'd have to rent an MKH30 to do MS.

Blumlein could be great, but it is very sensitive to placement, more so than other setups.  Get it right (and in the right acoustic) and it's magic.  Get it wrong and it's a phasey mess.

I would try to get a MKH30 to do MS with your 40 or a main ORTF pair as John suggests, but also add a set of AB omnis spaced 35-60cm to see if that sounds better in this acoustic instead.  This would be an either/or situation in post, unless you set the omnis much wider in which case you could combine with your M/S array.
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Recordinc 100-person choir in the Romanian Atheneum
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2017, 07:07:29 AM »
I'd ask Rolo, a frequent poster in the Remote recording forum on Gearslutz because of the results he gets using a 2 mic setup in places with great acoustics. 

Please post more pictures after the recording.  Amazing space.

Offline florian.ardelean

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Re: Recordinc 100-person choir in the Romanian Atheneum
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2017, 09:26:30 AM »
Well.. unfortunately it turns out that it won't really matter how I record the choir, they're more interested in shooting the ad itself. They do want a recording of the choir, but the main focus will be on what's being spoken in the ad... I got the song that needs to be recorded, it's 40 seconds long... so you can imagine it's a big let-down for me.

The client's main focus is on getting playback in sync with timecode to sync in post-production, so you can imagine.

I will post pictures of the hall, of course, and the recordings as well. Not sure it's worth investing extra money in renting microphones for this though.

Thank you for all the feedback!
Recorders: SD 744T Tascam HDP2 Sony D50 Olympus LS100 Zoom H2 Tascam IM2
Mixers: SD 422 SD 302 Mackie VLZ4
Microphones: Rode NT2A x 2 - Sanken CS1 - Senn MKH415T x 2 - Senn MKH40 - AKG D190 - Sennheiser MKE-2-Gold - Sennheiser MKE 40 - Audio Technica CC417
Headphones: Sennheiser HD280 x 2 - KRK KNS 8400 x 2 - Beyer 880 - Senn HD 590 - Senn HD201
Headphone amps: Sound Devices HX3 - Presonus HP4
Studio: Protools 9 HD2x2 - Digidesign C24 - Tascam 1804 - Mbox Mini 2 - Macbook with Reaper
Monitoring: JBL 4675Cx3, JBL 8340Ax2, Behringer B2030Px3
Subwoofers: Altec Lansing LFx3, JBL 18', Dynaudio BM14s
Macpro 1.1, MBP 13 2011, HP xw8600 x 2
Storage: Facilis Terrablock 24D

Offline thatjackelliott

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Re: Recording 100-person choir in the Romanian Atheneum
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2017, 10:34:20 AM »
Bummer.

Stupid video people.  :(

Offline voltronic

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Re: Recording 100-person choir in the Romanian Atheneum
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2017, 07:41:59 PM »
Wait until they tell you that no mics may be visible in any shot.

Is this a paid gig?  If so, I would refuse to deliver a product which is not up to your standards (i.e. not recorded correctly).  Do they want you to capture the sound of that space, or not?

If this is a professional video crew of any sort, they're going to do multiple takes.  A few of those takes could have your mics recording (and visible) and others just hidden mics as a guide track.  It would be very easy to swap later if the tempos are consistent between takes.
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Recording 100-person choir in the Romanian Atheneum
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2017, 09:39:53 PM »
It's still a great opportunity to be in that space.   

 

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