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Author Topic: Soundboard feed: Edirol R-09HR or Tascam dr-2D? + mixing with audience sources?  (Read 1181 times)

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Offline fandelive

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Hello,

I have an opportunity to get access to a soundboard feed in a couple of days. I never taped from a soundboard source.

I have two recorders: Edirol R-09HR and Tascam dr-2D.

From what I gathered so far from this board, both will do the job. I could find some setup tips when using the Tascam (line-in and recording level set to 100), but nothing about the Edirol unless the fact that it might be able to handle a hotter input in comparison to the Tascam...

So this is a call to both Edirol and Tascam users who can give some experience feedback on taping from a soundboard feed.

It's gonna be a hard-rock band in a small club (300 to 500 capacity) and I've already taped a show there in the past using mics and the mix was done in stereo.

I don't think I can make it to the venue for soundcheck time so I might either be able to setup during the opening act or not to setup anything at all... Just plug-in and hit record.

What should I ask the sound guy that could help getting good results?

I know the sound table is gonna be an Audient Aztec 44/4 (PDF format user manual). It's the first time I open a sound table user manual as well. Here's what I could find under the "Recording" section (page 8) about plugging-in a recorder :

A fully balanced, level variable direct record out is available on jack and, in groups of 8 channels, on D-sub connectors wired in accordance with Tascam DA98 format. This allows simple connection to one or more 8 track recorders.

The provision of the fully balanced D-IN ‘remix’ input, again on D-Sub connectors in groups of 8, allows Aztec to be used for post-production of recorded performances preserving EQ and FX configurations used in the original show.

Audio Sub-Group outputs are available on a D-sub connector as well as XLRs, for rapid recorder connection if required.

Also, there seems to be Sub-Group and Auxiliary outputs (page 51) and Main outputs (page 52).

So my question here: where should I connect my recorder? I think there are several possibilities. This might help me getting the right cable (even if I might bring several cables with me).


Second half of this post is about mixing the SBD source with audience sources. I also might be able to get both an omnidirectional and a cardioid (pairs) sources taken from separated spots.

Again, from what I gathered by reading other threads, the soundboard mix might be heavy on vocals and guitars and not so much on bass and drums because we're in a hard-rock act/small club configuration.

So the idea would be to stand in front of a stack within the first three rows with the omnis (and my question here is : better stand on guitarist/singer side or bassist side ?) to get plenty of drums and bass with less room reverb, and to stand at the top of the theorical sweet spot triangle (stereo mix, remember) with the cardioids to get at least one balanced tape (and a bit more room ambiance).

What do you think ?
Any comment welcome :)
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 07:53:56 AM by fandelive »
Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline furburger

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it'd be good if you could get there for soundcheck, as you could plug in *headphones* while you check the different outs...but if you plan on being close to tape the show, you won't be able to monitor that at the beginning.

as for cables, I had a female XLR>1/8 custom made at a guitar shop, but since I also have a Zoom H4n, I also grabbed some male>female XLR's, as the male end will connect to the bottom of the Zoom, and if I connect a pair of mics to the Zoom by the board, I'll have a time-sync'd aud/SBD fileset. (gonna try this for the first time next week)

I really like the soundboards I've pulled from the DR-2D, there is one from The Magpie Salute on etree and dime and TTD right now (Tulsa) that has gotten a few hundred snatches combined.

good luck!
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 06:31:14 PM by furburger »
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Online kuba e

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I use cable with one end stereo jack 3.5 second end two RCA. Stereo jack 3.5 is for connecting to dr2d and RCA is for connecting to adapter for sbd out. You can buy different adapters to cover different options. I have these adapters:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01J2OSMWM/ref=sspa_dk_detail_0?psc=1
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bespeco-SLAD320-Female-Socket-Adapter/dp/B00M7XNIF2/ref=sr_1_8?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1509962382&sr=1-8&keywords=Bespeco++adapter
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bespeco-SLAD370-Stereo-Sockets-Adapter/dp/B00IF0JQM0/ref=sr_1_2?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1509962382&sr=1-2&keywords=Bespeco++adapter
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bespeco-SLAD380-Stereo-Sockets-Adapter/dp/B00IF0JN5A/ref=sr_1_6?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1509962382&sr=1-6&keywords=Bespeco++adapter

You can try audience recording by sbd. The advantage is that you can directly record all four tracks (microphones and sbd feed) to the dr2d. You can record onstage too. The sound engineer can bring the onstage microphones signal trough snake to sbd and you can record all four tracks to dr2d too. I would not record at stack for mixing with sbd. Stack recording and sbd feed will be similar and will not complement each other.

Offline fandelive

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Many thanks for replying so far !

You can try audience recording by sbd. The advantage is that you can directly record all four tracks (microphones and sbd feed) to the dr2d. You can record onstage too. The sound engineer can bring the onstage microphones signal trough snake to sbd and you can record all four tracks to dr2d too. I would not record at stack for mixing with sbd. Stack recording and sbd feed will be similar and will not complement each other.

Where should I stand with omnis if not in front of a stack ? Let's assume the SBD mix brings plenty of vocals and guitars and barely audible bass and drums. I think I should pick the missing instruments from front row (or close to front row).
Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline Sloan Simpson

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My experience with soundboard feeds in small clubs is that typically drums are very audible, guitars much less so unless it's a quieter band or the guitarists turn down.
Neumann KM-184> Tascam DR-680

Online IMPigpen

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In my experience with soundboard patching, be prepared for anything and never plug in yourself.  I always ask the FOH guy, even if I know them very well for a patch.  Depending on the console, the stage setup, etc, he may give you something different.  I got a patch on Saturday night that was an XLR aux out of the console.  But I've had RCA, a single mono XLR, even 1/4 from the headphones on some small boards.

Like kuba e said, just have a bunch of connectors in your arsenal.  I've got an 1/8" male to RCAs to plug into my DR-60 and always carry RCA to XLR, mono 1/4 inch, stereo 1/8" and stereo 1/4". 
Mics: Neumann KM184s; Naiant X-R omnis
Recorders: Tascam DR-60Dmkii

Offline Gutbucket

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Where should I stand with omnis if not in front of a stack ?

If you are recording a SBD feed directly you do not want to stack tape for your mic recording.  The intent of stack taping is to maximize pickup of direct PA content while minimizing pickup of everything else.  You are already getting direct SBD, so you want exactly the opposite in your microphone recording- maximum pickup of everything else and minimum pickup of the direct PA content.   If you are wearing the mics, stay in the center and choose your position to favor the non-direct PA sound stuff. Up front at stage-lip or back by the board can both work.
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Online lsd2525

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Where should I stand with omnis if not in front of a stack ?

If you are recording a SBD feed directly you do not want to stack tape for your mic recording.  The intent of stack taping is to maximize pickup of direct PA content while minimizing pickup of everything else.  You are already getting direct SBD, so you want exactly the opposite in your microphone recording- maximum pickup of everything else and minimum pickup of the direct PA content.   If you are wearing the mics, stay in the center and choose your position to favor the non-direct PA sound stuff. Up front at stage-lip or back by the board can both work.

If the band is down with it, put them on stage.
Mics: ADK A51s; AT4041; Superlux S502; CK91 active w/homebrew BB; AT853; Naiant X-X; Nak 300's
Recorders: M10; DR-60D; DR-70D

Online kuba e

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Onstage recordings have a very interesting sound. But it may be difficult to find a place where you will have everything balanced. It is good to be further away from the drums, it can be very prominent in the recordings. You will also miss vocals. You can get vocals by mixing with sbd, but synchronizing Edirol and Dr2d is difficult.

The second option is to make an audience recording by board. Compared to onstage it has the advantage that there is no risk of instrument imbalances and you can make full use of dr2d - record sbd and audience simultaneously. That's a huge advantage, you do not need to sync tracks in post. You have to just align it by time.

Try both options to compare when you have time. Setup Dr2d with aud + sbd by the board. And then put easy setup Edirol + some mics on stage just for fun.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 01:52:49 PM by kuba e »

Offline furburger

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My experience with soundboard feeds in small clubs is that typically drums are very audible, guitars much less so unless it's a quieter band or the guitarists turn down.

pretty sure those levels are set by the soundman, and not set by the acoustics of the room.

or, my experience varies depending on the soundman vs. the "square footage" of the venue.
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Offline Sloan Simpson

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My experience with soundboard feeds in small clubs is that typically drums are very audible, guitars much less so unless it's a quieter band or the guitarists turn down.

pretty sure those levels are set by the soundman, and not set by the acoustics of the room.

or, my experience varies depending on the soundman vs. the "square footage" of the venue.

The soundman is setting the levels to the PA for the room, not the Tape Out. So if there is plenty of guitar volume coming off the stage, he will send less to the PA, because it is already loud in the room, and there will be less in the Tape Out signal. And if you're dealing with rock guitarists, more than likely in a 300-400 club, there is a lot of volume coming off the stage from their amps. Generalities of course, but my point was guitar is likely to be lacking in the soundboard feed, not overly abundant.
Neumann KM-184> Tascam DR-680

Offline furburger

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My experience with soundboard feeds in small clubs is that typically drums are very audible, guitars much less so unless it's a quieter band or the guitarists turn down.

pretty sure those levels are set by the soundman, and not set by the acoustics of the room.

or, my experience varies depending on the soundman vs. the "square footage" of the venue.

The soundman is setting the levels to the PA for the room, not the Tape Out. So if there is plenty of guitar volume coming off the stage, he will send less to the PA, because it is already loud in the room, and there will be less in the Tape Out signal. And if you're dealing with rock guitarists, more than likely in a 300-400 club, there is a lot of volume coming off the stage from their amps. Generalities of course, but my point was guitar is likely to be lacking in the soundboard feed, not overly abundant.

and usually the ambient sound is:

-drums: loudest
-then bass
-then guitars
-then vocals

since you 'feel' bass and drums and 'hear' vox and guitar, that's the general rule....and the soundman adjusts accordingly.

it makes no sense that the soundman would amplify the loudest instrument in the room.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 07:45:55 PM by furburger »
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Offline Sloan Simpson

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No. Vocals will be very loud in the soundboard feed, since they are not coming through an amplifier onstage into the room. If the vocals were the quietest thing going to the PA, you wouldn't hear them.
Neumann KM-184> Tascam DR-680

Offline furburger

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No. Vocals will be very loud in the soundboard feed, since they are not coming through an amplifier onstage into the room. If the vocals were the quietest thing going to the PA, you wouldn't hear them.

that's what my chart above says.

vocals, LOWEST on the list, will be *strongest* in the SBD feed in a club

drums, HIGHEST on the list, will be weakest (unless the soundman is inept)

which is contrary to what your post said, that being that drums will be loudest...., or very audible, with empahsis on 'very'

My experience with soundboard feeds in small clubs is that typically drums are very audible


you didn't mention vocals at all, either.

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Offline Sloan Simpson

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Your post is clearer after the edit.
Neumann KM-184> Tascam DR-680

Offline yug du nord

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Your post isearer after the edit.

 ;)

IMO....  run the DR-2d at the board....  with mikes at the board....  run both sources into the DR-2d. 
Capture both sources independently and mix in post.  You're bound to get something good.  Maybe.  YMMV.

.....got a blank space where my mind should be.....

Offline fandelive

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I'd like to thank you all for the very useful information so far. :cheers:

From what I've gathered so far, here's what seems to be a common agreement in a "standard" situation :
  • dead center at stage-lip with omnis (that I'll be wearing at head level, Binaural configuration - no other option for me anyway...)
  • FOB with cardioids

  • omnis with Edirol R-09HR
  • cardioids + SBD with Tascam dr-2D

No chances of being able to put mics on stage I think.
I'll arrive late at the venue (after soundcheck, and I hope before the opening act hits the stage) and I never met the band, their staff yet and/or the sound guy.

Still, I have one concern left :

I already taped this band at this venue, using only cardioids worn at head level and standing at the top of the theorical sweet spot triangle (that means dead center and 10 to 15 rows away from stage).
I got great sounding results.

In this venue, the board is located at about half the distance between stage and back of the room and sticked to the left wall.
That probably means alot of room reverb if taping with mics from that spot.

I think I know the answer but should I really set the cardioids FOB in my case ? How should I point the mics then ?
Wouldn't it be better to tape from the known sweet spot ? Is there some good sounding thing I'll miss from the FOB spot then ?

I won't be able to use a mic stand either. Cardioids will be worn at head level too (AB configuration). And I'm not fairly tall...

Thanks :)
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 02:28:22 AM by fandelive »
Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Online kuba e

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From what I've gathered so far, here's what seems to be a common agreement in a "standard" situation :
  • dead center at stage-lip with omnis (that I'll be wearing at head level, Binaural configuration - no other option for me anyway...)
  • FOB with cardioids
It is nice, you will be the stand :). It is best to buy some small stand for onstage/stagelip recording. Just 2-3 feet tall, it is unobtrusive. You have lavalier mics, you can make mics stand from some wire too. And if you have two stands, you would space the microphones at a greater distance.

In this venue, the board is located at about half the distance between stage and back of the room and sticked to the left wall.
That probably means alot of room reverb if taping with mics from that spot.

I think I know the answer but should I really set the cardioids FOB in my case ?
Wouldn't it be better to tape from the known sweet spot ? Is there some good sounding thing I'll miss from the FOB spot then ?
You cannot be far from board because sbd feed. This is usually not possible in practice to lead long cables to sweet spot. And your sbd signal will be unbalanced, it should not be led over long distances too.

Quote
How should I point the mics then ?
Use Getbucket's advice. Close your eyes and determine where the acoustic center is. Point your microphone configuration there.

I do not own DPA, let confirm the following from someone more experienced. If you will record more often onstage + sbd feed, you can buy a phantom adapter for DPA microphones. The phantom adapter will convert an unbalanced signal from the microphone to balanced signal. Then you can plug onstage mics to snake and the sound engineer will bring your signal to sbd. Then you will have the sbd feed and mics signal in one place. And you will not need a battery box, the microphones will be powered by a phantom. (I suppose your other microphones have 4.7 modes, I'm not sure it will work with a phantom adapter.)
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 04:26:31 AM by kuba e »

Offline fandelive

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In this venue, the board is located at about half the distance between stage and back of the room and sticked to the left wall.
That probably means alot of room reverb if taping with mics from that spot.

I think I know the answer but should I really set the cardioids FOB in my case ?
Wouldn't it be better to tape from the known sweet spot ? Is there some good sounding thing I'll miss from the FOB spot then ?
You cannot be far from board because sbd feed. This is usually not possible in practice to lead long cables to sweet spot. And your sbd signal will be unbalanced, it should not be led over long distances too.

I should have mentionned that before but I have 2 Tascams + 1 Edirol (a third taper will join us; I just got the information a couple of hours ago). So we'll be able to record from 3 separated spots. :coolguy:
Only the sync between the FOB source and the SBD source will be harder to do in post if I don't tape both using the same Tascam device.

In my experience with soundboard patching, be prepared for anything and never plug in yourself.  I always ask the FOH guy, even if I know them very well for a patch.  Depending on the console, the stage setup, etc, he may give you something different.  I got a patch on Saturday night that was an XLR aux out of the console.  But I've had RCA, a single mono XLR, even 1/4 from the headphones on some small boards.

Like kuba e said, just have a bunch of connectors in your arsenal.  I've got an 1/8" male to RCAs to plug into my DR-60 and always carry RCA to XLR, mono 1/4 inch, stereo 1/8" and stereo 1/4".

Here's a link to the sound table user manual. Again, I never opened a sound table user manual (nor did I even approach a sound table), but I think I'm up with 3 possibilites (see 3 joined files which are caps from the manual pages 51, 52, 53) :

  • Stereo Aux (2x male XLRs)
  • Phones Out (1x female jack 6.3 - wait, or is it a mini-jack 3.5 ???)
  • Matrix Out (1x male XLR)

And here's the shopping list I've built so far (not 100% complete yet). A friend taper told me it would be better to have x actual cables than 1 cable with several adaptators.
Do I miss something ?

1x jack 3.5 (m) > 2x RCA (m) (gold; 1,5m):
Cordial CFY 1.5 WCC
[8,50€] https://www.thomann.de/fr/cordial_cfy15wcc_yaudiokabel.htm?ref=prod_rel_201113_11
[8,50€] https://www.amazon.fr/Cordial-CFY1-5WCC-C%C3%A2ble-multim%C3%A9dia-Noir/dp/B001RP2000/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1509885364&sr=8-1&keywords=cordial+CFY+1.5+WCC
[8,50€] https://www.sonovente.com/cordial-cfy-1-5-wcc-p52845.html

1x jack 3.5 (m) > 2x jack 6.3 (m) (gold; 1,5m):
Cordial CFY 1.5 WPP
[8,70€] https://www.thomann.de/fr/cordial_cfy_15_wpp.htm?ref=prod_rel_166835_2
[8,70€] https://www.amazon.fr/Cordial-CFY1-5WPP-C%C3%A2ble-multim%C3%A9dia-Noir/dp/B001383Z6E/ref=sr_1_1?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1509885417&sr=1-1&keywords=cordial+CFY+1.5+WPP
[8,70€] https://www.sonovente.com/cordial-cfy-1-5-wpp-p52856.html

1x jack 3.5 (m) > 2x XLR (f) (gold; 3m):
Cordial CFY 3 WFF
[10,90€] https://m.thomann.de/fr/cordial_cfy3wff_yaudiokabel.htm?ref=msg_a_0

1x jack 3.5 (m) > 2x XLR (f) (gold; 1,8m):
Cordial CFY 1.8 WFF Câble adaptateur en Y jack stéréo 3,5 mm vers 2 x XLR femelle 1,8 m
[10,10€] https://www.amazon.fr/Cordial-CFY-WFF-adaptateur-femelle/dp/B0017YER8E/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1509885476&sr=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=cordial+CFY+1.5+WFF
[10,10€] https://www.sonovente.com/cordial-cfy-1-8-wff-p52891.html

1x jack 3.5 (m) > 1x jack 3.5 (m) (gold; 1,5m):
Cordial CFS 1.5 WW
[5,40€] https://www.thomann.de/fr/cordial_cfs_15_ww.htm

1x jack 3.5 (m) > 1x jack 6.3 (m) (gold; 1,5m):
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 06:58:21 AM by fandelive »
Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline furburger

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Your post is clearer after the edit.

and your post is still says that the drums are loudest in the SBD feed in clubs, which is contrary to my experience.

occasionally, a poorly mic'd snare will come thru too loud, but overall, the drums come thru the lowest 90% of the time. usually a bit dry/flat as well. (compared to the ambient room sound)
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Offline Sloan Simpson

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Your post is clearer after the edit.

and your post is still says that the drums are loudest in the SBD feed in clubs, which is contrary to my experience.

occasionally, a poorly mic'd snare will come thru too loud, but overall, the drums come thru the lowest 90% of the time. usually a bit dry/flat as well. (compared to the ambient room sound)

Well it sounds like your experiences have been different than the hundreds of small room matrixes I've made, so let's leave it at that.

Neumann KM-184> Tascam DR-680

Offline furburger

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Your post is clearer after the edit.

and your post is still says that the drums are loudest in the SBD feed in clubs, which is contrary to my experience.

occasionally, a poorly mic'd snare will come thru too loud, but overall, the drums come thru the lowest 90% of the time. usually a bit dry/flat as well. (compared to the ambient room sound)

Well it sounds like your experiences have been different than the hundreds of small room matrixes I've made, so let's leave it at that.


for theaters and arenas, your post is close to accurate.

it's even more accurate for mic pulls from small clubs (as the drums are the loudest)

I've never had drums 'too loud' on a club soundboard if the soundman is worth two shits.  because the soundman lowers them, due to their volume.

too dry...too flat...sure.

but never too loud.

I'll leave it at that.
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Offline Sloan Simpson

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Good to hear.
Neumann KM-184> Tascam DR-680

Offline jbosco

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Your post is clearer after the edit.

and your post is still says that the drums are loudest in the SBD feed in clubs, which is contrary to my experience.

occasionally, a poorly mic'd snare will come thru too loud, but overall, the drums come thru the lowest 90% of the time. usually a bit dry/flat as well. (compared to the ambient room sound)

Well it sounds like your experiences have been different than the hundreds of small room matrixes I've made, so let's leave it at that.

As an old sound engineer with over 25 years of mixing just about all levels of acts in most sizes of rooms from small clubs to several thousand seat theaters and churches (never made it to arenas or stadiums) my experience is closer to yours. Obviously you need more vocals, but next comes the drums, then bass and keys (depending on their amps) usually lacking is electric guitar because it's so loud on the stage. Snares can sometimes be problematic in that they can be so loud they bleed into other stage mics, I'm pretty sure that's what the above poster has experienced. As the rooms get larger the volume off the stage becomes less of a concern, but mic bleeding issues will always be there unless you use something to block unwanted sound from reaching the microphones.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 02:54:37 PM by jbosco »
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Neumann KM 184 -> Tascam DR 70D
DPA 4061 -> Sony M10

Offline su6oxone

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Edirol R-09HR and Tascam dr-2D.

From what I gathered so far from this board, both will do the job.

I used a R-09HR for getting SBD feeds in the past but unless you are using a pre in front I wouldn't get the feed directly into the R-09HR as it can overload/clip.  Ruined one SBD tape for a unique show (intimate Cracker show in a comic book store) due to it.  Back in the day I switched to using a Marantz PMD-661 for SBD and had no such problems again. 

Here's a link to an old post of mine showing my SBD patch cables/adapters to, hopefully, prepare one for any type of SBD situation (well, when recording with a device via a 1/8" unbalanced input). 

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,121657.msg1623201.html#msg1623201

« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 12:23:05 AM by su6oxone »

Online anodyne33

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Offline adrianf74

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I used a R-09HR for getting SBD feeds in the past but unless you are using a pre in front I wouldn't get the feed directly into the R-09HR as it can overload/clip.

What you need one of the cablemakers is to make, in this case, is a -12dB pad cable.  I've actually got one of those which I keep around in case I'm running a feed in to an R-05 or a 2D.  The cable will generally only function in one direction so it's criticial to know which end goes to the deck.

Using such a cable resolves that issue.

 

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