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Author Topic: Soundboard feed: Edirol R-09HR or Tascam dr-2D? + mixing with audience sources?  (Read 1164 times)

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Offline yug du nord

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Your post isearer after the edit.

 ;)

IMO....  run the DR-2d at the board....  with mikes at the board....  run both sources into the DR-2d. 
Capture both sources independently and mix in post.  You're bound to get something good.  Maybe.  YMMV.

.....got a blank space where my mind should be.....

Offline fandelive

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I'd like to thank you all for the very useful information so far. :cheers:

From what I've gathered so far, here's what seems to be a common agreement in a "standard" situation :
  • dead center at stage-lip with omnis (that I'll be wearing at head level, Binaural configuration - no other option for me anyway...)
  • FOB with cardioids

  • omnis with Edirol R-09HR
  • cardioids + SBD with Tascam dr-2D

No chances of being able to put mics on stage I think.
I'll arrive late at the venue (after soundcheck, and I hope before the opening act hits the stage) and I never met the band, their staff yet and/or the sound guy.

Still, I have one concern left :

I already taped this band at this venue, using only cardioids worn at head level and standing at the top of the theorical sweet spot triangle (that means dead center and 10 to 15 rows away from stage).
I got great sounding results.

In this venue, the board is located at about half the distance between stage and back of the room and sticked to the left wall.
That probably means alot of room reverb if taping with mics from that spot.

I think I know the answer but should I really set the cardioids FOB in my case ? How should I point the mics then ?
Wouldn't it be better to tape from the known sweet spot ? Is there some good sounding thing I'll miss from the FOB spot then ?

I won't be able to use a mic stand either. Cardioids will be worn at head level too (AB configuration). And I'm not fairly tall...

Thanks :)
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 02:28:22 AM by fandelive »
Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline kuba e

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From what I've gathered so far, here's what seems to be a common agreement in a "standard" situation :
  • dead center at stage-lip with omnis (that I'll be wearing at head level, Binaural configuration - no other option for me anyway...)
  • FOB with cardioids
It is nice, you will be the stand :). It is best to buy some small stand for onstage/stagelip recording. Just 2-3 feet tall, it is unobtrusive. You have lavalier mics, you can make mics stand from some wire too. And if you have two stands, you would space the microphones at a greater distance.

In this venue, the board is located at about half the distance between stage and back of the room and sticked to the left wall.
That probably means alot of room reverb if taping with mics from that spot.

I think I know the answer but should I really set the cardioids FOB in my case ?
Wouldn't it be better to tape from the known sweet spot ? Is there some good sounding thing I'll miss from the FOB spot then ?
You cannot be far from board because sbd feed. This is usually not possible in practice to lead long cables to sweet spot. And your sbd signal will be unbalanced, it should not be led over long distances too.

Quote
How should I point the mics then ?
Use Getbucket's advice. Close your eyes and determine where the acoustic center is. Point your microphone configuration there.

I do not own DPA, let confirm the following from someone more experienced. If you will record more often onstage + sbd feed, you can buy a phantom adapter for DPA microphones. The phantom adapter will convert an unbalanced signal from the microphone to balanced signal. Then you can plug onstage mics to snake and the sound engineer will bring your signal to sbd. Then you will have the sbd feed and mics signal in one place. And you will not need a battery box, the microphones will be powered by a phantom. (I suppose your other microphones have 4.7 modes, I'm not sure it will work with a phantom adapter.)
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 04:26:31 AM by kuba e »

Offline fandelive

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In this venue, the board is located at about half the distance between stage and back of the room and sticked to the left wall.
That probably means alot of room reverb if taping with mics from that spot.

I think I know the answer but should I really set the cardioids FOB in my case ?
Wouldn't it be better to tape from the known sweet spot ? Is there some good sounding thing I'll miss from the FOB spot then ?
You cannot be far from board because sbd feed. This is usually not possible in practice to lead long cables to sweet spot. And your sbd signal will be unbalanced, it should not be led over long distances too.

I should have mentionned that before but I have 2 Tascams + 1 Edirol (a third taper will join us; I just got the information a couple of hours ago). So we'll be able to record from 3 separated spots. :coolguy:
Only the sync between the FOB source and the SBD source will be harder to do in post if I don't tape both using the same Tascam device.

In my experience with soundboard patching, be prepared for anything and never plug in yourself.  I always ask the FOH guy, even if I know them very well for a patch.  Depending on the console, the stage setup, etc, he may give you something different.  I got a patch on Saturday night that was an XLR aux out of the console.  But I've had RCA, a single mono XLR, even 1/4 from the headphones on some small boards.

Like kuba e said, just have a bunch of connectors in your arsenal.  I've got an 1/8" male to RCAs to plug into my DR-60 and always carry RCA to XLR, mono 1/4 inch, stereo 1/8" and stereo 1/4".

Here's a link to the sound table user manual. Again, I never opened a sound table user manual (nor did I even approach a sound table), but I think I'm up with 3 possibilites (see 3 joined files which are caps from the manual pages 51, 52, 53) :

  • Stereo Aux (2x male XLRs)
  • Phones Out (1x female jack 6.3 - wait, or is it a mini-jack 3.5 ???)
  • Matrix Out (1x male XLR)

And here's the shopping list I've built so far (not 100% complete yet). A friend taper told me it would be better to have x actual cables than 1 cable with several adaptators.
Do I miss something ?

1x jack 3.5 (m) > 2x RCA (m) (gold; 1,5m):
Cordial CFY 1.5 WCC
[8,50€] https://www.thomann.de/fr/cordial_cfy15wcc_yaudiokabel.htm?ref=prod_rel_201113_11
[8,50€] https://www.amazon.fr/Cordial-CFY1-5WCC-C%C3%A2ble-multim%C3%A9dia-Noir/dp/B001RP2000/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1509885364&sr=8-1&keywords=cordial+CFY+1.5+WCC
[8,50€] https://www.sonovente.com/cordial-cfy-1-5-wcc-p52845.html

1x jack 3.5 (m) > 2x jack 6.3 (m) (gold; 1,5m):
Cordial CFY 1.5 WPP
[8,70€] https://www.thomann.de/fr/cordial_cfy_15_wpp.htm?ref=prod_rel_166835_2
[8,70€] https://www.amazon.fr/Cordial-CFY1-5WPP-C%C3%A2ble-multim%C3%A9dia-Noir/dp/B001383Z6E/ref=sr_1_1?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1509885417&sr=1-1&keywords=cordial+CFY+1.5+WPP
[8,70€] https://www.sonovente.com/cordial-cfy-1-5-wpp-p52856.html

1x jack 3.5 (m) > 2x XLR (f) (gold; 3m):
Cordial CFY 3 WFF
[10,90€] https://m.thomann.de/fr/cordial_cfy3wff_yaudiokabel.htm?ref=msg_a_0

1x jack 3.5 (m) > 2x XLR (f) (gold; 1,8m):
Cordial CFY 1.8 WFF Câble adaptateur en Y jack stéréo 3,5 mm vers 2 x XLR femelle 1,8 m
[10,10€] https://www.amazon.fr/Cordial-CFY-WFF-adaptateur-femelle/dp/B0017YER8E/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1509885476&sr=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=cordial+CFY+1.5+WFF
[10,10€] https://www.sonovente.com/cordial-cfy-1-8-wff-p52891.html

1x jack 3.5 (m) > 1x jack 3.5 (m) (gold; 1,5m):
Cordial CFS 1.5 WW
[5,40€] https://www.thomann.de/fr/cordial_cfs_15_ww.htm

1x jack 3.5 (m) > 1x jack 6.3 (m) (gold; 1,5m):
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 06:58:21 AM by fandelive »
Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline furburger

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Your post is clearer after the edit.

and your post is still says that the drums are loudest in the SBD feed in clubs, which is contrary to my experience.

occasionally, a poorly mic'd snare will come thru too loud, but overall, the drums come thru the lowest 90% of the time. usually a bit dry/flat as well. (compared to the ambient room sound)
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Offline Sloan Simpson

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Your post is clearer after the edit.

and your post is still says that the drums are loudest in the SBD feed in clubs, which is contrary to my experience.

occasionally, a poorly mic'd snare will come thru too loud, but overall, the drums come thru the lowest 90% of the time. usually a bit dry/flat as well. (compared to the ambient room sound)

Well it sounds like your experiences have been different than the hundreds of small room matrixes I've made, so let's leave it at that.

Neumann KM-184> Tascam DR-680

Offline furburger

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Your post is clearer after the edit.

and your post is still says that the drums are loudest in the SBD feed in clubs, which is contrary to my experience.

occasionally, a poorly mic'd snare will come thru too loud, but overall, the drums come thru the lowest 90% of the time. usually a bit dry/flat as well. (compared to the ambient room sound)

Well it sounds like your experiences have been different than the hundreds of small room matrixes I've made, so let's leave it at that.


for theaters and arenas, your post is close to accurate.

it's even more accurate for mic pulls from small clubs (as the drums are the loudest)

I've never had drums 'too loud' on a club soundboard if the soundman is worth two shits.  because the soundman lowers them, due to their volume.

too dry...too flat...sure.

but never too loud.

I'll leave it at that.
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Offline Sloan Simpson

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Good to hear.
Neumann KM-184> Tascam DR-680

Offline jbosco

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Your post is clearer after the edit.

and your post is still says that the drums are loudest in the SBD feed in clubs, which is contrary to my experience.

occasionally, a poorly mic'd snare will come thru too loud, but overall, the drums come thru the lowest 90% of the time. usually a bit dry/flat as well. (compared to the ambient room sound)

Well it sounds like your experiences have been different than the hundreds of small room matrixes I've made, so let's leave it at that.

As an old sound engineer with over 25 years of mixing just about all levels of acts in most sizes of rooms from small clubs to several thousand seat theaters and churches (never made it to arenas or stadiums) my experience is closer to yours. Obviously you need more vocals, but next comes the drums, then bass and keys (depending on their amps) usually lacking is electric guitar because it's so loud on the stage. Snares can sometimes be problematic in that they can be so loud they bleed into other stage mics, I'm pretty sure that's what the above poster has experienced. As the rooms get larger the volume off the stage becomes less of a concern, but mic bleeding issues will always be there unless you use something to block unwanted sound from reaching the microphones.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 02:54:37 PM by jbosco »
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Offline su6oxone

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Edirol R-09HR and Tascam dr-2D.

From what I gathered so far from this board, both will do the job.

I used a R-09HR for getting SBD feeds in the past but unless you are using a pre in front I wouldn't get the feed directly into the R-09HR as it can overload/clip.  Ruined one SBD tape for a unique show (intimate Cracker show in a comic book store) due to it.  Back in the day I switched to using a Marantz PMD-661 for SBD and had no such problems again. 

Here's a link to an old post of mine showing my SBD patch cables/adapters to, hopefully, prepare one for any type of SBD situation (well, when recording with a device via a 1/8" unbalanced input). 

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,121657.msg1623201.html#msg1623201

« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 12:23:05 AM by su6oxone »

Offline anodyne33

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Offline adrianf74

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I used a R-09HR for getting SBD feeds in the past but unless you are using a pre in front I wouldn't get the feed directly into the R-09HR as it can overload/clip.

What you need one of the cablemakers is to make, in this case, is a -12dB pad cable.  I've actually got one of those which I keep around in case I'm running a feed in to an R-05 or a 2D.  The cable will generally only function in one direction so it's criticial to know which end goes to the deck.

Using such a cable resolves that issue.

 

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