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Offline dmonterisi

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Home Theater Forums?
« on: December 02, 2006, 01:20:11 PM »
Looking for any messageboards on Home Theater/HDTV components etc.  I know about AVS forum but that place is a f'n wasteland.  it's got way too much activity, bickering, flaming etc.  some people are knowledgeable, most aren't.  the threads are way too long and unstructured (who needs a specific TV's owners thread with 4000 replies??).  it's just kinda silly.  any other suggestions out there?  thanks.

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2006, 01:36:15 PM »
I have used hdtvoice.com with some success...

Offline scervin

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2006, 05:48:46 PM »
While I agree there is a bunch of total crap on avs, there is a ton of info.  There are also some that know a lot, you just need to find them.

What are you looking for?

Offline dmonterisi

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2006, 12:34:47 PM »
well, the main question i'm interested in right now is whether to stick with my sony ns90v upconverting dvd player or go with another upconverting dvd player, or just go with a high-end non-upconverting player (and thus allowing the pioneer to do the scaling).  I'm not going to go with the Oppo upconverting player if i do go with a different upconverting player, because of the possibility of macroblocking with the Faroudja chipset (in the 971 model).  I may go with a non upconverting Arcam dvd player or some other high-end player.  I've read (on avsforum) of people having very nice results with such a set up, but haven't seen any specific input on an arcam/pio combo.  i may have to do a better search...

Offline Joe w.

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2006, 12:38:18 PM »
well, the main question i'm interested in right now is whether to stick with my sony ns90v upconverting dvd player or go with another upconverting dvd player, or just go with a high-end non-upconverting player (and thus allowing the pioneer to do the scaling).  I'm not going to go with the Oppo upconverting player if i do go with a different upconverting player, because of the possibility of macroblocking with the Faroudja chipset (in the 971 model).  I may go with a non upconverting Arcam dvd player or some other high-end player.  I've read (on avsforum) of people having very nice results with such a set up, but haven't seen any specific input on an arcam/pio combo.  i may have to do a better search...

 :o

christ I need to read up on this crap when I make the hdtv plunge in a month.
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Offline dmonterisi

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2006, 12:41:31 PM »
well, the main question i'm interested in right now is whether to stick with my sony ns90v upconverting dvd player or go with another upconverting dvd player, or just go with a high-end non-upconverting player (and thus allowing the pioneer to do the scaling).  I'm not going to go with the Oppo upconverting player if i do go with a different upconverting player, because of the possibility of macroblocking with the Faroudja chipset (in the 971 model).  I may go with a non upconverting Arcam dvd player or some other high-end player.  I've read (on avsforum) of people having very nice results with such a set up, but haven't seen any specific input on an arcam/pio combo.  i may have to do a better search...

 :o

christ I need to read up on this crap when I make the hdtv plunge in a month.

dude, this stuff gets asinine.  I had originally purchased my hdtv back in september after a good amount of research.  but after only a couple of weeks, i realized i had made the wrong decision.  luckily my store had a 90 day trade-up policy...now i'm just waiting for the new tv to be delivered.  give me a call at some point and i'll help you through this mess...

Offline Joe w.

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2006, 12:47:21 PM »
well, the main question i'm interested in right now is whether to stick with my sony ns90v upconverting dvd player or go with another upconverting dvd player, or just go with a high-end non-upconverting player (and thus allowing the pioneer to do the scaling).  I'm not going to go with the Oppo upconverting player if i do go with a different upconverting player, because of the possibility of macroblocking with the Faroudja chipset (in the 971 model).  I may go with a non upconverting Arcam dvd player or some other high-end player.  I've read (on avsforum) of people having very nice results with such a set up, but haven't seen any specific input on an arcam/pio combo.  i may have to do a better search...

 :o

christ I need to read up on this crap when I make the hdtv plunge in a month.

dude, this stuff gets asinine.  I had originally purchased my hdtv back in september after a good amount of research.  but after only a couple of weeks, i realized i had made the wrong decision.  luckily my store had a 90 day trade-up policy...now i'm just waiting for the new tv to be delivered.  give me a call at some point and i'll help you through this mess...

thanks. At least i've narrowed it down to the tv selection. After a bit of reading and viewing, I think i'm gonna get the sony 50" LCD.
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Offline dmonterisi

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2006, 12:48:40 PM »
which model is that?  got a link?

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2006, 12:59:59 PM »
which model is that?  got a link?

not really sure. it seems that you can get flat LCD's or rear projection? I know i don't like the rear projection.
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Offline dmonterisi

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2006, 01:04:49 PM »
which model is that?  got a link?

not really sure. it seems that you can get flat LCD's or rear projection? I know i don't like the rear projection.

yeah, i had the 50" SXRD, which is a rear projection model, similar to the rear-projection LCD's.  I personally would avoid these and with other technologies falling in price, i would go with the flat panel.  one piece of advice i would give is not to get caught in the hype of 1080p resolution...not only will it be a while before 1080p sources are readily available (if ever)...but it will absolutely reveal the flaws in SD programming and your SD DVD's. 

i don't know that sony has a 50" flat panel LCD.  they have a 46" and a 52".  the 52 lists at $6500, i believe.  the 46 lists at $3800 and you could probably get it in the $3300 range.  what's your budget??  (the key question around here i know).  PM me or give me a call this week.

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2006, 01:08:50 PM »
which model is that?  got a link?

not really sure. it seems that you can get flat LCD's or rear projection? I know i don't like the rear projection.

yeah, i had the 50" SXRD, which is a rear projection model, similar to the rear-projection LCD's.  I personally would avoid these and with other technologies falling in price, i would go with the flat panel.  one piece of advice i would give is not to get caught in the hype of 1080p resolution...not only will it be a while before 1080p sources are readily available (if ever)...but it will absolutely reveal the flaws in SD programming and your SD DVD's. 

i don't know that sony has a 50" flat panel LCD.  they have a 46" and a 52".  the 52 lists at $6500, i believe.  the 46 lists at $3800 and you could probably get it in the $3300 range.  what's your budget??  (the key question around here i know).  PM me or give me a call this week.

i'll give you a ring this week.
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Offline scb

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2006, 01:12:05 PM »
well, the main question i'm interested in right now is whether to stick with my sony ns90v upconverting dvd player or go with another upconverting dvd player, or just go with a high-end non-upconverting player (and thus allowing the pioneer to do the scaling).  I'm not going to go with the Oppo upconverting player if i do go with a different upconverting player, because of the possibility of macroblocking with the Faroudja chipset (in the 971 model).  I may go with a non upconverting Arcam dvd player or some other high-end player.  I've read (on avsforum) of people having very nice results with such a set up, but haven't seen any specific input on an arcam/pio combo.  i may have to do a better search...


if you can find an arcam dv27 or 27a for cheap, it's a sweet player, even though it's component out only.  i have *no* complaints from this thing at all. 

Offline dmonterisi

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2006, 01:13:42 PM »
well, the main question i'm interested in right now is whether to stick with my sony ns90v upconverting dvd player or go with another upconverting dvd player, or just go with a high-end non-upconverting player (and thus allowing the pioneer to do the scaling).  I'm not going to go with the Oppo upconverting player if i do go with a different upconverting player, because of the possibility of macroblocking with the Faroudja chipset (in the 971 model).  I may go with a non upconverting Arcam dvd player or some other high-end player.  I've read (on avsforum) of people having very nice results with such a set up, but haven't seen any specific input on an arcam/pio combo.  i may have to do a better search...


if you can find an arcam dv27 or 27a for cheap, it's a sweet player, even though it's component out only.  i have *no* complaints from this thing at all. 

i've seen good comments on the 27...what's the difference in the 27 v. 27a.  i'm not too worried about component only, that wouldn't be a hang-up for me.

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2006, 04:41:12 PM »
What do you want/need from the player??

Kris Deering does a great job of putting the players through hell.  He scores them on passed tests not PQ.  The score is a pretty good indication of PQ though.  A low scoring player won't have great PQ.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/masterindex_video_players.html

Offline dmonterisi

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2006, 04:56:05 PM »
What do you want/need from the player??

Kris Deering does a great job of putting the players through hell.  He scores them on passed tests not PQ.  The score is a pretty good indication of PQ though.  A low scoring player won't have great PQ.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/masterindex_video_players.html

thanks, i'll check that out.  i'm trying to figure out the best option for getting the best picture from SD DVD's.  the scaler and de-interlacer in the pio elite is supposed to be outstanding, so maybe the best way is to feed it a standard 480i image from a high-end non-upconverting player and allow the panel to do the scaling and deinterlacing.  but then, maybe there are better upconverting players out there and it would be better to feed the panel a 1080i upconverted feed of SD DVD's.

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2006, 05:19:41 PM »
well, the main question i'm interested in right now is whether to stick with my sony ns90v upconverting dvd player or go with another upconverting dvd player, or just go with a high-end non-upconverting player (and thus allowing the pioneer to do the scaling).  I'm not going to go with the Oppo upconverting player if i do go with a different upconverting player, because of the possibility of macroblocking with the Faroudja chipset (in the 971 model).  I may go with a non upconverting Arcam dvd player or some other high-end player.  I've read (on avsforum) of people having very nice results with such a set up, but haven't seen any specific input on an arcam/pio combo.  i may have to do a better search...

How about the Oppo 970 with the Mediatek chip?  Does your current Sony player have the ability to pass a 480i signal?

I've heard good things about the Pio Elite's de-interlacing/scaling, so a higher end player may be money wasted.

Later,
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Offline dmonterisi

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2006, 05:47:18 PM »
well, the main question i'm interested in right now is whether to stick with my sony ns90v upconverting dvd player or go with another upconverting dvd player, or just go with a high-end non-upconverting player (and thus allowing the pioneer to do the scaling).  I'm not going to go with the Oppo upconverting player if i do go with a different upconverting player, because of the possibility of macroblocking with the Faroudja chipset (in the 971 model).  I may go with a non upconverting Arcam dvd player or some other high-end player.  I've read (on avsforum) of people having very nice results with such a set up, but haven't seen any specific input on an arcam/pio combo.  i may have to do a better search...

How about the Oppo 970 with the Mediatek chip?  Does your current Sony player have the ability to pass a 480i signal?

I've heard good things about the Pio Elite's de-interlacing/scaling, so a higher end player may be money wasted.

Later,
  pjdavep

it cannot pass 480i over hdmi, but can over component, i believe.  so i'll hook up both outputs via 1080i and 480i and see what looks best.

the de-interlacing and scaling of the Pio is one of the reasons i went with the upgrade.  and is also why i'm considering going with a high-end 480i player.  the better the 480i picture quality, the better it should look when scaled by the pio...well, in theory at least.  trying to figure out if that's the best way to get the best PQ from SD DVD's or by a better upconverting player.

Offline pjdavep

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2006, 06:43:32 PM »
it cannot pass 480i over hdmi, but can over component, i believe.  so i'll hook up both outputs via 1080i and 480i and see what looks best.

the de-interlacing and scaling of the Pio is one of the reasons i went with the upgrade.  and is also why i'm considering going with a high-end 480i player.  the better the 480i picture quality, the better it should look when scaled by the pio...well, in theory at least.  trying to figure out if that's the best way to get the best PQ from SD DVD's or by a better upconverting player.

Have you looked at the possibilty of an outboard scaler/processor?  I was looking at getting the DVDO VP30, but happened across a great deal on a Key Digital iSync Pro advertised on one of the AVS forum's "power buys".  I just got it the other day and am awaiting a cable and a chunk of free time to hook it up and test it out.  I'm hoping that it will improve the quality of my SD TV and DVD image.  The processor made sense for me because I have a lower end plasma (Vizio P50), which has limited color tweaking and it improperly streches higher resolutions vertically.

For pure 480i video, you can get an SDI modded DVD player, but I'm pretty sure that you can't get any TV with an SDI input and that you'd need an outboard scaler  ;D
http://www.jvbdigital.com/jvb.asp?cur=2&level=dvdplayers&page=title&title=327

Later,
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Offline scervin

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2006, 06:56:35 PM »
it cannot pass 480i over hdmi, but can over component, i believe.  so i'll hook up both outputs via 1080i and 480i and see what looks best.

the de-interlacing and scaling of the Pio is one of the reasons i went with the upgrade.  and is also why i'm considering going with a high-end 480i player.  the better the 480i picture quality, the better it should look when scaled by the pio...well, in theory at least.  trying to figure out if that's the best way to get the best PQ from SD DVD's or by a better upconverting player.

Have you looked at the possibilty of an outboard scaler/processor?  I was looking at getting the DVDO VP30, but happened across a great deal on a Key Digital iSync Pro advertised on one of the AVS forum's "power buys".  I just got it the other day and am awaiting a cable and a chunk of free time to hook it up and test it out.  I'm hoping that it will improve the quality of my SD TV and DVD image.  The processor made sense for me because I have a lower end plasma (Vizio P50), which has limited color tweaking and it improperly streches higher resolutions vertically.

For pure 480i video, you can get an SDI modded DVD player, but I'm pretty sure that you can't get any TV with an SDI input and that you'd need an outboard scaler  ;D
http://www.jvbdigital.com/jvb.asp?cur=2&level=dvdplayers&page=title&title=327

Later,
  pjdavep

480i via SDI would be the way to go, but then you need an SDI Iscan.  Right there you are pushing $1500+.  I've often thought of getting the SDI mod for my SP1000, but then I wonder if I end up getting the Anthem D2 or AVM-50 when they offer HDMI 1.3 if I would prefer the scaler in the Anthem.

Anyway, the Oppo 970 does 480i over HDMI and is "supposed" to be one of the best.  A lot of folks are having good luck with the new Denon's running 480P.  I would try a few players in your budget and try them all.  I couldn't stand the macroblocking on the 3910 so ended up with the Onkyo.  I'm thinking about trying the new 3930ci or 2930 with an outboard DAC for CD's.  I do know this, I will have too much time on my hands in the next few weeks to think about all this.

SC

Offline dmonterisi

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2006, 07:29:35 PM »

Have you looked at the possibilty of an outboard scaler/processor?  I was looking at getting the DVDO VP30, but happened across a great deal on a Key Digital iSync Pro advertised on one of the AVS forum's "power buys".  I just got it the other day and am awaiting a cable and a chunk of free time to hook it up and test it out.  I'm hoping that it will improve the quality of my SD TV and DVD image.  The processor made sense for me because I have a lower end plasma (Vizio P50), which has limited color tweaking and it improperly streches higher resolutions vertically.

For pure 480i video, you can get an SDI modded DVD player, but I'm pretty sure that you can't get any TV with an SDI input and that you'd need an outboard scaler  ;D
http://www.jvbdigital.com/jvb.asp?cur=2&level=dvdplayers&page=title&title=327

Later,
  pjdavep

not going to do an outboard scaler, though I'm sure that would be superior.  spent too much on this TV, can't add the scaler right now.  I assume the Vizio does 1:1 pixel mapping?


Anyway, the Oppo 970 does 480i over HDMI and is "supposed" to be one of the best.  A lot of folks are having good luck with the new Denon's running 480P.  I would try a few players in your budget and try them all.  I couldn't stand the macroblocking on the 3910 so ended up with the Onkyo.  I'm thinking about trying the new 3930ci or 2930 with an outboard DAC for CD's.  I do know this, I will have too much time on my hands in the next few weeks to think about all this.

SC

i haven't used the Oppo myself, but I think i'm going to stay away from it, mainly because of build quality.  i'm probably going to post this question on avsforum and see what happens.



480i via SDI would be the way to go, but then you need an SDI Iscan.  Right there you are pushing $1500+.  I've often thought of getting the SDI mod for my SP1000, but then I wonder if I end up getting the Anthem D2 or AVM-50 when they offer HDMI 1.3 if I would prefer the scaler in the Anthem.


my arcam does HDMI switching, but does not extract audio from HDMI and does not upconvert.  It's basically a convenience.  I think when the Pio arrives, I'm going to abandon using it as an hdmi switching box because I feel that the optimal picture settings for SD DVD playback are different from those of HDTV as the colorspaces are different.  I infer from your comment that the Anthem upconverts SD and scales to your tv's native resolution...if you were to go with the Anthem, would you have similar colorspace issues, or does the fact that the anthem is upconverting solve those colorspace issues?

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2006, 08:57:23 PM »
Just read through the 3930 thread looking for Kris Deering's comments.  He mentioned the scaler in the 3930 is better than that Anthem uses.  Guess that solves that problem.

Right now I have my DVD plyer doing the upconverting to 720P to run native to the projector.  I then have my HD box send the native signal and let the Infocus scale to 720P.  Each input is calibrated differently.  I don't believe I will ever use a switcher for the exact reasons you mentioned.  There are very different settings for DVD and HD.

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2006, 09:11:33 PM »
which model is that?  got a link?

not really sure. it seems that you can get flat LCD's or rear projection? I know i don't like the rear projection.

yeah, i had the 50" SXRD, which is a rear projection model, similar to the rear-projection LCD's.  I personally would avoid these and with other technologies falling in price, i would go with the flat panel.  one piece of advice i would give is not to get caught in the hype of 1080p resolution...not only will it be a while before 1080p sources are readily available (if ever)...but it will absolutely reveal the flaws in SD programming and your SD DVD's. 

i don't know that sony has a 50" flat panel LCD.  they have a 46" and a 52".  the 52 lists at $6500, i believe.  the 46 lists at $3800 and you could probably get it in the $3300 range.  what's your budget??  (the key question around here i know).  PM me or give me a call this week.

just curious about your doubts on the speed of 1080p availability.  With PS3's starting to get into the market, you suddenly have a pretty reasonable Blu-ray player (and a sweet gaming system).  TV will get there...at least the sports will.  This I know for a fact as our trucks already are 100% 1080p enabled.  It's the limitations of the networks and cable infrastructure that are holding up airing as far as I had heard.  Hopefully they can get things rolling sooner than later!!!
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Offline dmonterisi

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2006, 10:16:06 PM »

just curious about your doubts on the speed of 1080p availability.  With PS3's starting to get into the market, you suddenly have a pretty reasonable Blu-ray player (and a sweet gaming system).  TV will get there...at least the sports will.  This I know for a fact as our trucks already are 100% 1080p enabled.  It's the limitations of the networks and cable infrastructure that are holding up airing as far as I had heard.  Hopefully they can get things rolling sooner than later!!!

I have 2 reasons to doubt a speedy move to 1080p.  first of all, like you said the bandwidth limitations of cable and satellite are a big deal.  these feeds are apparently already heavily compressed and with cable operators adding voice services to already-existed high volume internet services, I don't think there is enough a difference in PQ for the average consumer that the cable companies will allocate that much more bandwidth.  1080i and 720p look great for the most part...and 1080p requires double the bandwidth.  there just will not be the incentive to switch to 1080p because the average consumer won't notice the difference. 

second, and somewhat related to the first, is it's got to be driven by sales of dvd's.  I think just like regular cd v. dvd-a or sacd, I just don't think most people will care.  I think the enhanced resolution of HD-DVD or blu-ray will not be a big enough difference to appeal to the average consumer.  i think it will stay a niche market. 

Offline pjdavep

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2006, 10:58:15 PM »
not going to do an outboard scaler, though I'm sure that would be superior.  spent too much on this TV, can't add the scaler right now.  I assume the Vizio does 1:1 pixel mapping?


The Vizio can do 1:1 mapping via the RGB port, but it's a 1366x768 panel, so everything is scaled if you are using component or HDMI.  I plan on trying the RGB output of the outboard scaler first, although I'm a little hesitant because it has been reported that you can't pass blacker-than-black using the RGB port.

I don't think you ever mentioned which Pioneer you got.  Is it that FD-1 (or something like that) that is a native 1080p panel?

Later,
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Offline dmonterisi

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2006, 11:07:31 PM »
i got the 1140.  it's 1365x768. 

the Pro-FHD1 is their 50" 1080p plasma...along with it's $8k price tag...

Offline scb

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2006, 08:05:52 AM »
if you can find an arcam dv27 or 27a for cheap, it's a sweet player, even though it's component out only.  i have *no* complaints from this thing at all. 

i've seen good comments on the 27...what's the difference in the 27 v. 27a.  i'm not too worried about component only, that wouldn't be a hang-up for me.

27a does dvd-audio.  regular 27 doesn't

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2006, 09:17:39 AM »
which model is that?  got a link?

not really sure. it seems that you can get flat LCD's or rear projection? I know i don't like the rear projection.

yeah, i had the 50" SXRD, which is a rear projection model, similar to the rear-projection LCD's.  I personally would avoid these and with other technologies falling in price, i would go with the flat panel.  one piece of advice i would give is not to get caught in the hype of 1080p resolution...not only will it be a while before 1080p sources are readily available (if ever)...but it will absolutely reveal the flaws in SD programming and your SD DVD's. 

i don't know that sony has a 50" flat panel LCD.  they have a 46" and a 52".  the 52 lists at $6500, i believe.  the 46 lists at $3800 and you could probably get it in the $3300 range.  what's your budget??  (the key question around here i know).  PM me or give me a call this week.

just curious about your doubts on the speed of 1080p availability.  With PS3's starting to get into the market, you suddenly have a pretty reasonable Blu-ray player (and a sweet gaming system).  TV will get there...at least the sports will.  This I know for a fact as our trucks already are 100% 1080p enabled.  It's the limitations of the networks and cable infrastructure that are holding up airing as far as I had heard.  Hopefully they can get things rolling sooner than later!!!

1080p only makes a difference if you're sitting 2 feet from your tv or if you have a 60"+ tv.  There are limitations to human eyesight. ;)
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Offline nickgregory

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2006, 09:24:41 AM »
it makes a difference with sports.  1080i gets macro blocked with fast action, which is why most sports is broadcast in 720p...

Offline dmonterisi

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2006, 09:28:59 AM »
it makes a difference with sports.  1080i gets macro blocked with fast action, which is why most sports is broadcast in 720p...

not exactly true...it's a network by network thing.  fox, abc and espn broadcast in 720p.  the other networks use 1080i.

1080i doesn't always exhibit macroblocking, it just depends on the quality of the de-interlacer in the TV.

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2006, 09:37:48 AM »
it makes a difference with sports.  1080i gets macro blocked with fast action, which is why most sports is broadcast in 720p...

not exactly true...it's a network by network thing.  fox, abc and espn broadcast in 720p.  the other networks use 1080i.

1080i doesn't always exhibit macroblocking, it just depends on the quality of the de-interlacer in the TV.

good point i was looking strictly at my personal experience.  For the olympics, NBC did 1080i and the diving events were painful to watch as a result...but your right...only based on my set/experience

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2006, 09:42:12 AM »
it makes a difference with sports.  1080i gets macro blocked with fast action, which is why most sports is broadcast in 720p...

not exactly true...it's a network by network thing.  fox, abc and espn broadcast in 720p.  the other networks use 1080i.

1080i doesn't always exhibit macroblocking, it just depends on the quality of the de-interlacer in the TV.

good point i was looking strictly at my personal experience.  For the olympics, NBC did 1080i and the diving events were painful to watch as a result...but your right...only based on my set/experience

NBC is somewhat notorious for poor HD sports.  It's evident on their sunday night broadcasts as well.  I'm not sure where the problem is in their production, but based on internet comments, it seems pretty likely the problem is in their HD processing.

nick, do you know if DirecTV HD boxes output the native resolution for that channel or is everything being output at a single resolution.  for example, my comcast HD box (motorola box) will only output either 720p or 1080i.  so anything broadcast in a different resolution than the output resolution is scaled by the box to the output resolution (ie 720p ESPN gets scaled and interlaced to 1080i).  Is this how directv works? 

I'm considering getting a cable card just to eliminate this issue (there is no point in scaling from 720p to 1080i, then to 768p)...but i'd still have to keep the moto box for the DVR.

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2006, 09:48:33 AM »
it makes a difference with sports.  1080i gets macro blocked with fast action, which is why most sports is broadcast in 720p...

not exactly true...it's a network by network thing.  fox, abc and espn broadcast in 720p.  the other networks use 1080i.

1080i doesn't always exhibit macroblocking, it just depends on the quality of the de-interlacer in the TV.

good point i was looking strictly at my personal experience.  For the olympics, NBC did 1080i and the diving events were painful to watch as a result...but your right...only based on my set/experience

NBC is somewhat notorious for poor HD sports.  It's evident on their sunday night broadcasts as well.  I'm not sure where the problem is in their production, but based on internet comments, it seems pretty likely the problem is in their HD processing.

nick, do you know if DirecTV HD boxes output the native resolution for that channel or is everything being output at a single resolution.  for example, my comcast HD box (motorola box) will only output either 720p or 1080i.  so anything broadcast in a different resolution than the output resolution is scaled by the box to the output resolution (ie 720p ESPN gets scaled and interlaced to 1080i).  Is this how directv works? 

I'm considering getting a cable card just to eliminate this issue (there is no point in scaling from 720p to 1080i, then to 768p)...but i'd still have to keep the moto box for the DVR.

My DTV HD DVR I have a button on the front that allows me to select what resolution it outputs (native, 480, 720p and 1080i), so I am assuming that what is sent to the TV via the DVI (in my case, HDMI would output the same thing) connection is the selected resolution...

Offline dmonterisi

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2006, 09:50:30 AM »
that's a nice feature.  i have to go into the moto box service menu to change the output resolution (which requires turning off the box) so it's a PITA.

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2006, 09:54:44 AM »
that's a nice feature.  i have to go into the moto box service menu to change the output resolution (which requires turning off the box) so it's a PITA.

definitely convenient.  Of course at the end of the month in my move, I am getting the upgraded DTV dish and HD DVR to allow me to receive MPEG4 compression level broadcasts, so all bets are off if they carry over good features to the new HW

Offline scervin

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2006, 12:36:34 PM »
Screw DTV and their HD-lite.  Get a nice antenna and grab the OTA signal.  Much better IMO.

I let the box send the native signal to the projector and let it scale.

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2006, 01:06:16 PM »
Screw DTV and their HD-lite.  Get a nice antenna and grab the OTA signal.  Much better IMO.

I let the box send the native signal to the projector and let it scale.

Actually, that's what I'll be doing.  I decided I don't watch enough cable to justify the high monthly costs (plus I just moved into my first house, so I need to keep expenses down for now).

Do you have any recommendations for antennas?  Do all indoor antennas suck?  I'd rather not mount anything outside if it's not necessary...
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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2006, 01:14:34 PM »
Screw DTV and their HD-lite.  Get a nice antenna and grab the OTA signal.  Much better IMO.

I let the box send the native signal to the projector and let it scale.

I get all my locals via antenna (and I would agree, the PQ is miles better than DTV or cable)...DTV is for all the other programming



Screw DTV and their HD-lite.  Get a nice antenna and grab the OTA signal.  Much better IMO.

I let the box send the native signal to the projector and let it scale.

Actually, that's what I'll be doing.  I decided I don't watch enough cable to justify the high monthly costs (plus I just moved into my first house, so I need to keep expenses down for now).

Do you have any recommendations for antennas?  Do all indoor antennas suck?  I'd rather not mount anything outside if it's not necessary...

I own one of these on my current house (which I will be selling with the current house and buying a new one for the new house), and love it....it is probably overkill as I am only ~15 miles from the local antennas (take a look at http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx  to figure out where you are in relation to the source)...but it is fantastic.  Easy to install and easy to get pointed the right direction...

http://www.winegard.com/offair/squareshooter.htm

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2006, 01:44:33 PM »
That looks good, and it can be used indoors?  Where can I get one?  Can't seem to find a dealer from their site...
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Offline nickgregory

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2006, 01:57:33 PM »
That looks good, and it can be used indoors?  Where can I get one?  Can't seem to find a dealer from their site...
http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=winegard+square+shooter&hl=en&btnG=Search+Froogle

I assume it can be used indoors, I have mine mounted on the roof...

Offline scervin

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2006, 03:14:07 PM »
Screw DTV and their HD-lite.  Get a nice antenna and grab the OTA signal.  Much better IMO.

I let the box send the native signal to the projector and let it scale.

Actually, that's what I'll be doing.  I decided I don't watch enough cable to justify the high monthly costs (plus I just moved into my first house, so I need to keep expenses down for now).

Do you have any recommendations for antennas?  Do all indoor antennas suck?  I'd rather not mount anything outside if it's not necessary...

How about an outdoor 10' boom antenna put in the attic.  Yeah buddy....that is the way to go.  Fits right in the trusses.

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2006, 03:42:38 PM »
I own one of these on my current house (which I will be selling with the current house and buying a new one for the new house), and love it....it is probably overkill as I am only ~15 miles from the local antennas (take a look at http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx  to figure out where you are in relation to the source)...but it is fantastic.  Easy to install and easy to get pointed the right direction...

http://www.winegard.com/offair/squareshooter.htm

Looks like I'm only about 10 miles from the local antennas.  Thanks for the site, Nick.  +T
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Offline heath

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2006, 10:26:15 PM »

NBC is somewhat notorious for poor HD sports.  It's evident on their sunday night broadcasts as well.  I'm not sure where the problem is in their production, but based on internet comments, it seems pretty likely the problem is in their HD processing.


The problems with NBC have to be at the Master Control level.  The trucks they are using are the finest in the country (I built them ;)  )   Seriously though, they have some of the best equipment made at their disposal (everything is 1080p including cameras) , so the signal has to be being poorly manipulated once it leaves the truck's transmission room.  Bottom line is that just about every network needs to improve it's infrastructure to keep up with the market's technological advancements. 

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2006, 10:29:07 PM »

 there just will not be the incentive to switch to 1080p because the average consumer won't notice the difference. 

understood.  kind of like 24/96 audio, unfortunately.

Quote
second, and somewhat related to the first, is it's got to be driven by sales of dvd's.  I think just like regular cd v. dvd-a or sacd, I just don't think most people will care.  I think the enhanced resolution of HD-DVD or blu-ray will not be a big enough difference to appeal to the average consumer.  i think it will stay a niche market. 

again, I reluctantly agree...just like SACD and DVD-A, price and lack of understanding will likely keep this at a niche, but we'll keep making our trucks 1080p with high hopes and our fingers crossed.  :)
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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2006, 08:39:17 AM »

Quote
second, and somewhat related to the first, is it's got to be driven by sales of dvd's.  I think just like regular cd v. dvd-a or sacd, I just don't think most people will care.  I think the enhanced resolution of HD-DVD or blu-ray will not be a big enough difference to appeal to the average consumer.  i think it will stay a niche market. 

again, I reluctantly agree...just like SACD and DVD-A, price and lack of understanding will likely keep this at a niche, but we'll keep making our trucks 1080p with high hopes and our fingers crossed.  :)

Heath...production question for you.  when HD is broadcast in 1080i, is it typically produced at 1080p and then interlaced?  or is it produced at 720p and and up-rezz'ed/interlaced.  or can they natively shoot in 1080i?  natively producing in 1080i doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense, but i don't know about the production process.

a couple of other things...the first gen 1080p tv's from sony last year actually cannot accept a 1080p input.  pretty ridiculous, right?  they cannot accept 1080p over either hdmi or component, so even though they can resolve all the detail of a 1080 source, they cannot accept a 1080p input.  and while more and more 1080 tv's are hitting the market, there are still far more 768 panels being sold.  so while i think we'll creep along toward 1080p, i just don't think there is enough difference to really create a consumer clamor for 1080p.  but i think we'll get there eventually, the format war will hopefully get sorted out, and hopefully a lot of material has been produced in 1080p and can be released on hddvd or bluray.  and hopefully, the cable/satellite bandwidth situation will improve to the point where it's just as easy to do.

i wonder if 1080p may be offered by cable providers as a Higher-Tier cable service initially.  you know how like hdtv is like an additional 5 to 10 dollars per month...maybe they call it XHDTV and charge $19.95 per month for stuff broadcast in 1080p.  maybe it will be like a XHDTV movie channel or something.


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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2006, 09:09:08 AM »
Up until recently I worked in product mgmt in the IPTV organization here and have some quick thoughts.

The cable co's have an absolute bandwith limitation in that most of their backbone is coax, which has a fixed ceiling as to how much bandwith intensive programming they can take on.  They are trying to address this by pushing the programming content as far out into the neighborhoods as possible (those big metal cabinets in your neighborhood hidden by a bush), that way, when you request a program it is resident at that cabinet and there doesnt need to be a dedicated path for you all the way to their central office.  This helps with bandwith, as they deploy all of the content to those cabinets, and then the cabinet routes it to the requestors.  So instead of 100 people grabbing ESPN HD from the central office, tying up that bandwith...ESPN HD is provided to the cabinet as one path, and grabbed from there.  So while they have bandwith limitations, they can defeat it by laying more coax from the central office to the cabinets..

Satellite is a bit different in that their bandwith limitation  has zero to do with existing delivery infrastructure.  It is all about satellites in the sky, dishes that can recognize and receive from all of these satellites and compression.  Rumor is that next year, they will be launching 3 more sats in the air, which will allow them to deliver HD locals for every local that they provide SD service for today (though I agree with Scott that if you have the option, receiving HD locals over antenna will beat the DTV PQ every day of the week),and 40 more cable style HD offerings (who the hell knows what they will offer here...likely the channels that Dish Network offers over HD today).  In addition to the satellites, they are driving customers to replace their existing 3 LNB dishes with 5 LNB dishes to get all of the satellites and new receivers to be able to receive and decode MPEG4 compression. 

On compression real quick...it is a misconception that some providers do not use compression, the fact is they all do.  The only cut out is the programming received over the air.  And from what I have seen they all will be moving to MPEG4 and whatever compression algorythyms continue to come out to be able to increase their offering without necessarily increasing the size of their pipe.

The last providers are the wild card here, the telcos.  They have the network in place in some areas to immediately jump in and provide TV services.  Add to that, they are losing business to Vonage and cable co's, so they are looking to mega package all services (voice, mobile, data, video).  Currently in most markets, they are gated like the cable cos are in that their embedded infrastructure cannot handle the high bandwith requirements associated with TV.  But, in the neighborhoods that have deployed fiber optic cable, their bandwith is significanly larger than what anyone else in this space can offer (considering in the cable space you would need to lay a bunch of coax, and in the satellite space, you would need more sats in the sky and new receiver equipment).  The key is and always has been fiber in the ground.  That said, Verizon has 2 experimental neighborhoods, one in Florida, one in California that they are providing quad services to today (phone, mobile, data, video), and once they perfect the business model, I would expect to see them and other service providers jump into this market with both feet.  Fact is they absolutely dominate the cable cos, by in effect giving away phone services at cost and make it back on video/data.  In addition to the fiber though, acquiring content (which is not cheap) is a barrier to entry.  But I dont see this as a huge issue to these guys in that they are losing money through lost voice services by not doing this and most of them have the coffers to cover the initial expense, as long as the business case justifies it on the back end.

So, long winded answer...bottom line, I am planning on continuing getting my TV via DTV and OTA, and my phone and data from timewarner cable...fact is DTV dominates TWC when it comes to available programming both in HD and SD.  However, when the telco service providers enter this space in my region, I will be all over it...

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2006, 09:14:26 AM »
interesting info, nick...thanks.  the verizon piece is interesting and something i was gonna ask about.  i got rid of my home phone a few months back, but i got something in the mail from verizon yesterday about getting directtv over my phone line.  i had no idea this was yet available and was actually just looking at this online.  it looks like you can get DirectTV directly over the phone line.  I am very intrigued by this, but i cannot get it right now because i will not be in my apt for a full year and not sure if where i'll be moving will have the directtv capability.  still, it's great to see competition is this market for those of us in apt buildings that previously did not have access to DirecTV.



The last providers are the wild card here, the telcos.  They have the network in place in some areas to immediately jump in and provide TV services.  Add to that, they are losing business to Vonage and cable co's, so they are looking to mega package all services (voice, mobile, data, video).  Currently in most markets, they are gated like the cable cos are in that their embedded infrastructure cannot handle the high bandwith requirements associated with TV.  But, in the neighborhoods that have deployed fiber optic cable, their bandwith is significanly larger than what anyone else in this space can offer (considering in the cable space you would need to lay a bunch of coax, and in the satellite space, you would need more sats in the sky and new receiver equipment).  The key is and always has been fiber in the ground.  That said, Verizon has 2 experimental neighborhoods, one in Florida, one in California that they are providing quad services to today (phone, mobile, data, video), and once they perfect the business model, I would expect to see them and other service providers jump into this market with both feet.  Fact is they absolutely dominate the cable cos, by in effect giving away phone services at cost and make it back on video/data.  In addition to the fiber though, acquiring content (which is not cheap) is a barrier to entry.  But I dont see this as a huge issue to these guys in that they are losing money through lost voice services by not doing this and most of them have the coffers to cover the initial expense, as long as the business case justifies it on the back end.


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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2006, 09:16:42 AM »
interesting info, nick...thanks.  the verizon piece is interesting and something i was gonna ask about.  i got rid of my home phone a few months back, but i got something in the mail from verizon yesterday about getting directtv over my phone line.  i had no idea this was yet available and was actually just looking at this online.  it looks like you can get DirectTV directly over the phone line.  I am very intrigued by this, but i cannot get it right now because i will not be in my apt for a full year and not sure if where i'll be moving will have the directtv capability.  still, it's great to see competition is this market for those of us in apt buildings that previously did not have access to DirecTV.

absolutely and this is really the middle ground that the telcos can do today, until they get the infrastructure in place...

Offline dmonterisi

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2006, 09:21:39 AM »
do you happen to know what the directTV termination fee is?  if i were to get it over verizon and move to a place that cannot get directtv, how much would it cost me to terminate?

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #48 on: December 06, 2006, 09:24:53 AM »
do you happen to know what the directTV termination fee is?  if i were to get it over verizon and move to a place that cannot get directtv, how much would it cost me to terminate?

it used to be ~$160....but now that you dont own the equipment any more, and are "leasing" it from them (complete crock imo), the buyout is $300 if you leave early in your contract.  Now that said, I have heard of folks when they move, they call DTV and get the Move suspension, which basically puts your account on hold until you move and then they send someone out to install.  From what I have heard if it is determined at that install that you cant get dtv (cant install a dish where you are living, or other type blockades) they allow you to cancel.  No personal experience though...

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #49 on: December 06, 2006, 09:27:57 AM »
you know looking at it further, it looks like you still need a directtv dish.  then, why is verizon sending me this?  i just checked verizon's site, their fiber optic service is not available to my neighborhood yet, but it looks like some areas around here have it.

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #50 on: December 06, 2006, 09:29:58 AM »
you know looking at it further, it looks like you still need a directtv dish.  then, why is verizon sending me this?  i just checked verizon's site, their fiber optic service is not available to my neighborhood yet, but it looks like some areas around here have it.

I have read that verizon is partnering with DTV so that the perception is that it is "packaged or bundled" services even though you still need a dish...trying to compete with the cable cos until they get a legit IPTV offering

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2006, 09:30:49 AM »
gotcha.  it will be nice when their fios service is available, though.

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2006, 03:51:39 AM »
wow, totally missed this thread.  Looks like I'm joining late.

have you guys seen this:
http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/06/chinese-manufacturers-prepared-to-switch-from-dvd-to-evd-in-08/

its a shame that it appears to be for china only though.

I was looking at the oppo player and the helios.  Now I see that oppo has another player coming out though:
http://www.hkflix.com/hardware/xq/asp/pid.137/qx/details.htm

I'm probably just going to go with that 1080p oppo and call it good, macroblocking aside.

I've been watching tv on my roommates 10 year old zenith, or my computer monitor for the last year and half, and before that other misc crappy tvs.  I'm sure whatever I get will be hands down better than what I've got at the moment.



Because nothing says "I have lots of money and am sort of confused as to how to spend it" like Bose.

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2006, 07:15:58 AM »
that's a nice feature.  i have to go into the moto box service menu to change the output resolution (which requires turning off the box) so it's a PITA.

definitely convenient.  Of course at the end of the month in my move, I am getting the upgraded DTV dish and HD DVR to allow me to receive MPEG4 compression level broadcasts, so all bets are off if they carry over good features to the new HW

Nick, that new HD DVR (HR20-700) will allow you to choose "native resolution" in the settings, which will cause the box to output the native resolution whenever you change the channel.  People have complained about it though, because it takes a good second or two to adjust.  You can also change the output resolution like your current box.   These new DVRs are very buggy and don't have the OTA enabled yet.  Check out the HR20 forum at www.dbstalk.com for more info.

Edit: I checked the dbstalk forum this morning and they apparently have enabled OTA on the new HR20-700's!!  Now I'll think about getting one.

Later,
   pjdavep
« Last Edit: December 07, 2006, 08:26:14 AM by pjdavep »
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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #54 on: December 07, 2006, 07:19:31 AM »

NBC is somewhat notorious for poor HD sports.  It's evident on their sunday night broadcasts as well.  I'm not sure where the problem is in their production, but based on internet comments, it seems pretty likely the problem is in their HD processing.


The problems with NBC have to be at the Master Control level.  The trucks they are using are the finest in the country (I built them ;)  )   Seriously though, they have some of the best equipment made at their disposal (everything is 1080p including cameras) , so the signal has to be being poorly manipulated once it leaves the truck's transmission room.  Bottom line is that just about every network needs to improve it's infrastructure to keep up with the market's technological advancements. 


My local NBC in Jacksonville, FL must use some pretty old HD encoders.  The Sunday Night Football looks great during a still picture, but any fast movement gives horrible macroblocking.  In contrast, the ESPN (lite) HD off the DirecTV feed looks great and rarely has the macroblocking problem.  I've been meaning to contact the NBC station engineer and voice my opinion...

Later,
   pjdavep
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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #55 on: December 07, 2006, 12:07:58 PM »

NBC is somewhat notorious for poor HD sports.  It's evident on their sunday night broadcasts as well.  I'm not sure where the problem is in their production, but based on internet comments, it seems pretty likely the problem is in their HD processing.


The problems with NBC have to be at the Master Control level.  The trucks they are using are the finest in the country (I built them ;)  )   Seriously though, they have some of the best equipment made at their disposal (everything is 1080p including cameras) , so the signal has to be being poorly manipulated once it leaves the truck's transmission room.  Bottom line is that just about every network needs to improve it's infrastructure to keep up with the market's technological advancements. 


My local NBC in Jacksonville, FL must use some pretty old HD encoders.  The Sunday Night Football looks great during a still picture, but any fast movement gives horrible macroblocking.  In contrast, the ESPN (lite) HD off the DirecTV feed looks great and rarely has the macroblocking problem.  I've been meaning to contact the NBC station engineer and voice my opinion...

Later,
   pjdavep

Me too!  NBC seems way behind the curve when it comes to HD.  I always have problems with the OTA signal (always during Las Vegas when Sam is bending over for some reason  >:(  )

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2006, 12:44:08 PM »
that's a nice feature.  i have to go into the moto box service menu to change the output resolution (which requires turning off the box) so it's a PITA.

definitely convenient.  Of course at the end of the month in my move, I am getting the upgraded DTV dish and HD DVR to allow me to receive MPEG4 compression level broadcasts, so all bets are off if they carry over good features to the new HW

Nick, that new HD DVR (HR20-700) will allow you to choose "native resolution" in the settings, which will cause the box to output the native resolution whenever you change the channel.  People have complained about it though, because it takes a good second or two to adjust.  You can also change the output resolution like your current box.   These new DVRs are very buggy and don't have the OTA enabled yet.  Check out the HR20 forum at www.dbstalk.com for more info.

Edit: I checked the dbstalk forum this morning and they apparently have enabled OTA on the new HR20-700's!!  Now I'll think about getting one.

Later,
   pjdavep

nice DTV, has a slimline new dish and the new HD DVR lined up for me when  I move to my new house at the end of the month...glad to hear it isnt too far off from what I am used to!

 

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