Topic: Is 4 mic aud worth it?

[airbladder]

I currently run Neumann u89> V2> Minime> OCM R-44 and was thinking about getting a second set of microphones.  To be more specific I was thinking about going in on a pair of microphones with a local taper, this way we could have joint custody and get more bang for our buck.  In the past I have patched from other tapers to get a 4 microphone audience recording but haven’t spent much time experimenting.  I know many of you have had time to experiment with 4 mic aud recordings and my question to you, is it worth it?  Is the 4 channel recording that much better than the 2 channel recording?  If it’s better is it worth the expense, carrying the extra gear, and extra editing that’s involved?  Ok lets say it’s worth it, how do you pick out a second set of microphones?  Do you get a second set of mics that sound like what you all ready have or different from what you all ready have?  Fore example: do I get another pair of neumanns or do I get a pair of schoeps/AKG ect…  What is more important the pattern or brand?  Should I be looking at shotguns?   Until next summer (New York resident) I will mostly record in clubs, theaters, and an occasional arena.  In one of the clubs I frequent I could run on stage and FOH easily from the same spot.  Other than that most of the recordings would be made from the same stand.  Rite now I am leaning towards something small like 140’s so I could go low profile if necessary and they would not take up a lot of bag space.  Or I was thinking shotguns.  Any info, feedback, or ideas would be great.

[69mako]

For me, I have two sets of Busman mics.  When I run 4 channel audience, I'll run different caps and try and capture the "best" recording.  Sometimes, thing get extra chatty and the hypers help that.  Sometimes it will be perfect and the omnis really shine.  I liked what I heard with the Busmans, so I wasn't looking for a different sound.  Just wanted more options.

Mako

[stirinthesauce]

it can be.

It allows more flexibility.  More flexibility in the field and more flexibility in post.  Doesn't have to mean better, especially if you aren't sure what your doing in the field or doing in post.  In fact, it can make it sound worse.  Sometimes, you might just pick the better source (flexibility).

I run 4 channels most of the time.  I like the flexibility I have in post.  I mix for my ears.

[crackmc]

In one of the clubs I frequent I could run on stage and FOH easily from the same spot.

4 mics can be a HUGE asset onstage

[bhtoque]

In one of the clubs I frequent I could run on stage and FOH easily from the same spot.

4 mics can be a HUGE asset onstage

QFT

Some of the best recordings I've made, half the top 10 probably, have been 4ch onstage/stage lip.

I look at it in a big picture way though. Over time I've gone through several different 'main' sets of mics, but since I've kept almost every pair, I have different tools to use in different situations. I may run 4ch with the intention of mixing it down, or I may just want some insurance against pulling a bad tape (run cards and hypers) The sound I get from the LD capsules of the LSD2 are a great compliment with certain types of music, other times the addition of split omni's gives a needed boost to a narrow stereo image.

As stirinthesauce pointed out it is about flexibility.

I don't slap 4ch together because 4 is automatically better, but in the right situation it can give you a mindblowing result.

To your question about what your second pair should be, I'd say it should be something that compliments your existing gear well. It is more about tonal characteristics and pattern/placement options than brand.

With U89's I can't say that 140's would be a bad match, but experimenting and listening are the true test, which is easier said than done.

Is there something you feel your tapes lack right now? too bright, too dry, too warm? Pick a second pair that will mitigate that and round out your sound.

JAson

[rastasean]

Since I don't have a four channel recorder, I would rather (and maybe since its my only choice) run to separate records and mics. Is this very common? What disadvantages would arise from a setup like this?

[Javier Cinakowski]

for near-field multichannel obviously has its advantages.  In the diffuse I am a very strong advocate of properly placed stereo pair.  Good image and natural sound are important to me....

[deadheaded]

for near-field multichannel obviously has its advantages.  In the diffuse I am a very strong advocate of properly placed stereo pair.  Good image and natural sound are important to me....

thankyou!!!

+T

[wklitz]

I've really liked the results od my 4-channel mixes with my AKG 414's and a pair of Schoeps. Together they bring a sound that makes me smile.

 When I run 2 sets of schoeps, there is almost no point, with a few exceptions, most notably of late my Phil N Friends from VA Beach, the 4 channel schoeps mix was much better to my ears than each separate source.

I'd say it's worth it to run 4 mics, but don't be shocked when a single stereo pair is better than the mix on most occasions.

[travelinbeat]

Since I don't have a four channel recorder, I would rather (and maybe since its my only choice) run to separate records and mics. Is this very common? What disadvantages would arise from a setup like this?

I occasionally do something similar, as I too do not have a four channel.  What I've found is that my two devices slowly fall out of sync when you try to lay one recording over the other.  A two hour show may fall just a couple seconds out of sync; enough to completely destroy the listenability.  It's not a HUGE problem to fix (you'll need to stretch or contract one to match the other), but it is an added step in post which could easily be avoided by using a 4channel.  I wish I had one, but I don't really have enough money / necessity to justify buying one at this time.

[airbladder]

Thanks for the feedback and keep it coming. 

[boojum]

I occasionally run two omni's at a Williams specified distance in an AB setup and will put an MS or XY in the middle of the AB.  Omni's really need good acoustics in the hall to be worthwhile.  But, with a lowpass filter they can add "bass and space" to my cards.  I did that for a brass quintet a month or so ago.  The acoustics were way to bright so the omni's were blended in very low.  It works.

But, look at it this way: you can always discard what you do not like.  But you cannot create it out of nothing.  So, tape as many channels as you can.

Cheers

[kgreener]

I posed this 4-mic question to Doug Oade a while back (in regards to a possible R4 purchase) and this was his response (of course, ymmv):

Yes, a four mic mix can be done with a few techniques and a lot of effort in setup and mixing.  For example, 90° hypers X-Y with 8 foot spread omnis, about 20dB down, is one of a very few good techniques, but only if you can get good alignment.  That is the trouble.  Almost all 4 mic mixes destroy transient response, sounding somehow dull or lifeless at their very best.  It also causes massive image smear in most cases.  Selecting the right set of polar patterns, spacing and angles can make it possible to mix an omni, or pair of omnis, without severe degradation.  I have never heard 4 directional mics mixed that was anything other than bad.  It must be a main pair with omni flanking mics to open up the sound and flesh out the low end.  Most folks probably have low-end to mid-range systems that cannot recreate the recorded space accurately, and hence listen only for flavors which does change with more mics, but accurate 3D space reproduction suffers dramatically....peace...Doug

[Javier Cinakowski]

Oade is right on imo...

[tgakidis]

I run 4 mics all the time.  Sometimes it's just to get the better pull and other times it's to mix sources.  Omnis & Hypers/Shotguns mix very well togther.

Samples:
AKG hyper-Omni Mix: http://www.archive.org/details/dbb2008-08-01.akg.hyper-omni.flac
Senn ME80 Short Shotguns-C4 Omni Mix: http://www.archive.org/details/ratdog2008-06-01.me80c4omni.flac
LSD2 Card-C4 Omni Mix: http://www.archive.org/details/hdatz2008-04-27.lsd2-c4.flac
LSD2 Blumlein-C4 Hyper Mix: http://www.archive.org/details/hdatz2008-04-27.lsd2-c4.flac

Throw in a SBD mix for Fun
Three Source Mix: AKG c460b/hyper + AKG c460b/omni + SBD:
http://www.archive.org/details/brew2008-08-14.3source