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Author Topic: M-S recording with Sennheiser MKH series  (Read 16389 times)

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Offline ACandDC

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M-S recording with Sennheiser MKH series
« on: April 21, 2011, 03:52:21 AM »
Hi,

I´m currently working as sound engineer in television productions and also doing some radio stuff. Yes, it´s important that everything we do is at least somewhat mono compatible.

We don´t use M-S microphones very often in tv and that´s only because our sound designers dont like to use them. Why, I don´t know and I don´t care either because they still make great soundíng programs.

But personally I´m interested having my own M-S system. Now I have AT 4029 which is ok for normal sound capturing when somebody does something.It also has internal M-S matrix. But when I need to record atmospheres and wildlife it´s just not sound like what I had in mind.

I use Sennheiser MKH mics (40/50/60/70) a lot. In tv-series, sport broadcasts, music (ok, not so often in music) you name it. It´s a great sounding mic and very robust. (It can stand our cold winters in Finland.  :P )

So, I would like to know that if somebody is using MKH mics (30 and X) for M-S recording. Any opinions and succestions? I think that I´ll maybe get my own sennheisers someday...

I don´t have M-S decoder in my recorders or mixers (Fostex FR-2 and FR-2 le). Maybe I have to think about that too...
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Offline John Willett

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Re: M-S recording with Sennheiser MKH series
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2011, 06:04:25 AM »
Hi ADandDC, welcome to the forum.

I have been using an MKH 30/40 MS combination for about 20 years now (ever since they first came out).

Always superb results - the MKH 30 is a true single diaphragm symmetrical fig-8 with identical responses front and rear.  You won't be disappointed.

I have also used the MKH 30 in MS with an MKH 800 in super-cardioid setting (as I don't have an MKH 50).

I have a pair each of: MKH 20, 30, 40, 800, 8020 and 8040.

The Rycote InVision make the best shockmount for the pair which I use for mine all the time now.



Offline ACandDC

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Re: M-S recording with Sennheiser MKH series
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2011, 08:30:10 AM »
Hi John!

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

How did it work with 30-"super-cardioid" combination?

I´m considering between 40 and 50 for M.  (Also 8040)
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Offline John Willett

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Re: M-S recording with Sennheiser MKH series
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2011, 06:18:39 AM »
Hi John!

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

How did it work with 30-"super-cardioid" combination?

It worked fine - I used it in the Wigmore Hall in London for violin and piano.

I had to do a bit of fiddling as the violinist stood in a slightly different place for the performance than she did at the rehearsal.



I´m considering between 40 and 50 for M.  (Also 8040)

99% of the time I use a cardioid mid and use the 30/40 combination.

Sennheiser do not yet do a matching fig-8 in the 8000 series.  So if you choose the 8040 you would have to use the MKH 30, the Neumann KM-A + KK 120 or the new tiny Ambient fig-8 mic.


Offline ACandDC

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Re: M-S recording with Sennheiser MKH series
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2011, 03:05:36 AM »
That tiny Ambient 8-figure looks nice! But I think that it wouldn´t be as good as MKH 30, not in that price range anyway.

So 30/40 it is. Now where did I put my lottery ticket...?  :P

Thanks John!
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Offline 0vu

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Re: M-S recording with Sennheiser MKH series
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2011, 07:34:13 AM »
Sennheiser do not yet do a matching fig-8 in the 8000 series.  So if you choose the 8040 you would have to use the MKH 30, the Neumann KM-A + KK 120 or the new tiny Ambient fig-8 mic.

Or, of course, perhaps the most popular (amongst TV/Film and music engineers) high end fig-8 small diaphragm mic range from Schoeps, such as a CMC body with MK8 capsule, with or without active cable or the CCM8 compact mic.

(And before you say it, don't bother with the 'Schoeps fig-8 polar patterns are asymmetrical at 16kHz' argument - you already know how unconvinced I am about the relevance of that one.  ;) )

Though I'm not sure I'd waste a perfectly good Schoeps on an MKH mid mic.  :P Even for music recording.

I don't do TV/Film boom work but I'd expect that the reduced weight of a CCM8 over an MKH30 would be welcome. However, as the OP already uses MKH mics, he obviously likes them and it might be simpler in terms of mounting and accessories if he sticks with the one system.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2011, 07:42:32 AM by 0vu »

Offline rastasean

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Re: M-S recording with Sennheiser MKH series
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2011, 12:37:53 PM »
I don´t have M-S decoder in my recorders or mixers (Fostex FR-2 and FR-2 le). Maybe I have to think about that too...

What are the consequences for NOT having a M-S decoder on the pre-amp or recorder?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2011, 12:54:29 PM by rastasean »
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Re: M-S recording with Sennheiser MKH series
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2011, 12:55:29 PM »
I don´t have M-S decoder in my recorders or mixers (Fostex FR-2 and FR-2 le). Maybe I have to think about that too...

If you setup the mics in a M-S style and the recorders/pre-amps don't have this decoder, what would be the outcome of it?

You'll just have to mix it in post processing, which is what I prefer as it gives me more control. Most audio software should have something that can do it quite easily. Hope this helps !
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 06:39:13 PM by silentmark »
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Offline rastasean

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Re: M-S recording with Sennheiser MKH series
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2011, 05:05:30 PM »
You'll just have to mix it in post processing, which is what I prefer as it give me more control. Most audio software should have something that can do it quite easily. Hope this helps !

that makes a lot of sense. Glad to hear its not limited to needed the functionality directly on the recorder and/or pre-amp.
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Offline 0vu

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Re: M-S recording with Sennheiser MKH series
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2011, 05:09:34 PM »
What are the consequences for NOT having a M-S decoder on the pre-amp or recorder?

It just means that you can't matrix the MS to X-Y to record or monitor the Left-Right signal instead of the MS.

Some recorders have matrices built in which allow the MS to be converted to XY for either recording or monitoring or both. If limited to a single matrix, I find a monitor matrix the most useful option so I can record MS for later processing in post production but hear the matrixed X-Y as a double check that the mics are in the desired place.

Arguably, if you're doiing MS for stereo dialogue/FX booming on a TV/film production, you could possibly do without hearing the stereo version and work on the basis that if the mono sound is right, then the MS stereo will be the same but (variably) wider. I know several TV/film people who work like that but equally I know others who insist that they need to hear the stereo matrix version. I guess there are good arguments on both sides and it comes down to personal preference. For music recording I'd always prefer to go with a monitor matrix, just to be sure.

If there's no monitor matrix in your machine, you could get (at various different price/quality/complexity/flexibility levels) an external box that is just a matrix, or a headphone amp with matrix, or a mic preamp with matrix, or, if you're half competent with a bit of DIY soldering and just want the basics, you can get some seriously good qualitytransformer sets to do MS/X-Y matrixing at mic or line level or, for simple monitoring, Sowter make a nifty little transformer which does a fixed 90 degree MS matrix function, that's specifically designed to sit in a headphone feed. As it's passive, it won't impact on battery life and it's very simple to build into a small box with a headphone socket on one end and perhaps a short flying lead to jack to plug into the headphone out of whatever is recording. Add a bypass switch and you can flip between straight through or matrixed. It's not perfect but is a nice cheap way of getting basic MS monitoring if you need it. I have one of these which lives in my bodgit box of adapters and doobries but for more serious MS work I also have: a Crookwood Paintpot Mk1 preamp which has a built in (fixed ratio) matrix, an AEA MS380TX stereo preamp which has a variable width matrix and some very useful patching and routing options to allow for pretty much any combination of simultaneous MS>X-Y / X-Y>MS allowing recording and/or monitoring in either format and the option of using the matrix in post to go between formats in either direction, an Audio Developments Portaflex AD066/11 stereo preamp/headphone amp  (with similar monitoring and routing choices but not at the same quality level as the AEA), and a few digital and analogue mixers with built in MS decoders together with some MS decoder plugins for post work. So lots of choices.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2011, 05:13:34 PM by 0vu »

Offline ACandDC

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Re: M-S recording with Sennheiser MKH series
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2011, 01:43:56 AM »
Has anyone tried that Ambient 8-figure mic?
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Offline John Willett

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Re: M-S recording with Sennheiser MKH series
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2011, 08:16:03 AM »
Has anyone tried that Ambient 8-figure mic?

Not yet - it's very new and only announced at Musikmesse / ProLight+Sound in Frankfurt a couple of weeks ago.

Offline milo

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Re: M-S recording with Sennheiser MKH series
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2011, 05:33:19 PM »
First I take issue with the phrase "decode MS".  You aren't decoding MS to stereo, you are encoding MS to stereo.  MS is the raw recording, a stereo is a matrixing of the Mid and Side and therefore it is an encoding of the raw Mid Side.  That's a personal thing and I'm not trying to sell it but I need to say that before explaining anything.

1. I record for TV and film exclusively and I use an MS recording setup (Neuman RSM191 and a Sound Devices 722)
2. I record in stereo XY which is an encoded MS signal that the matrixing box that comes with the RSM191 can output.  My recorder therefore "sees" XY.
2a. If I had a discrete MS rig without a matrixing box I would use the built in MS matrix of the 722 to record XY or I would use the built in MS monitoring feature to hear XY in my headphones and record MS in the recorder.
3. This is because I can't listen to MS while recording, it doesn't work for me. (This is to me the major drawback of using an MS rig without MS to XY encoding)
4. I would never archive sounds for a Sound Designer or Editor as raw MS.  It will only confuse them.  I archive as an XY stereo pair, which they can combine to create a summed mono if they wish.
5. All Sound Devices recorders as well as the 302 MP-2 and new MixPre-2 have MS to XY encoding built in.  So does the Edirol R44 as well as many other preamps and recorders.  I would highly recommend using one of those recorders or mixers so that you can at least monitor an XY stereo pair rather than an MS raw pair.
6. Some microphones (the 191 with the matrix box, the Sanken Css5, and the Shure VP88) output an XY stereo pair from the microphone if you choose.

I'm looking forward to setting up an MS rig with a pair of Mids, one being the standard cardioid/shotgun and the other being an omni.  One of the only problems I have with MS rigs is a slight lack of low end.  The 191 however is better in this regard than the Css5 IMHO, but I have not tried the MKH30 which I hear actually has a very nice low end response to it.

Also note that the 418s (Senn's stereo MS shotgun) does not use a condenser figure eight but an electret figure eight and does not sound nearly as good as an MKH30/416 pair.  I really really want to try an MKH30 with a Neuman KMR81 as I like that shotgun more than the 416.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 05:35:38 PM by milo »
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Offline John Willett

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Re: M-S recording with Sennheiser MKH series
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2011, 06:00:39 AM »
Also note that the 418s (Senn's stereo MS shotgun) does not use a condenser figure eight but an electret figure eight and does not sound nearly as good as an MKH30/416 pair. 

Sorry - this is wrong and I don't know where you heard this.   >:(

I agree that the 418 is not as good as a 416/30 and that, in turn, is well inferior to a 30/60 rig.

But the fig-8 in the 418 is NOT electret.  It is a fig-8 made from back-to-back cardioids of the same type of capsule that is used in the 416.  It is a proper RF condenser.  Why you should disseminate incorrect information, I don't know.  >:(

Personally I don't use the term "encode" or "decode" regarding MS - I use the more correct term "matrix".

To be honest - a better MS rig would be the 50/30 - you always have problems when using an interference tube mic. as the mid due to the off-axis comb-filter effect side lobes.  An MKH 50 has the same basic polar-pattern at low frequencies as the 416/ 418, 60 and the like; it does not get more directional at higher frequencies but it does not have all the off-axis lobes of an interference tube mic. and wiill work much better in an MS rig.

This is partly why the Neumann 191 has such a short interference tube on the mid., to minimise the side lobes.

My own MS rig is an MKH 30/40 rig, which I have been using for the last 25 years since the MKH 30 first came out.  I have also used the MKH 800 as a mid where I needed a super-cardioid (as I don't have a 50).



Offline 0vu

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Re: M-S recording with Sennheiser MKH series
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2011, 09:27:49 AM »
Also note that the 418s (Senn's stereo MS shotgun) does not use a condenser figure eight but an electret figure eight and does not sound nearly as good as an MKH30/416 pair.
Whatever kind of capsule the 418 uses, and I definitely defer to John Willett on that one, may I point out that even if the capsule were an electret, it is still a condenser capsule. And also mention that there's no technical reason why an electret condenser can't be made to perform as well as an AF/RF biased condenser. e.g.  DPA seem to struggle by quite nicely with electret capsules.

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Re: M-S recording with Sennheiser MKH series
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2011, 05:35:56 PM »
i just picked up a used MS rig at a good price consisting of an MKH30 and an MKH20.  i already have a stereo pair of MKH8040 mics so i can substitute for the MKH20 if desired.  recording in MS is a new endeavor for me and i'm looking forward to it.  the MKH30 and MKH20 will also have good uses beyong the MS application; so even if MS proves not to be a common application for me, these mics are good additions to my toolbox.  i hope to see more good comments and feedback on this thread and am eager to learn more about MS recording.       

Offline leddy

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Re: M-S recording with Sennheiser MKH series
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2011, 09:19:49 AM »
i just picked up a used MS rig at a good price consisting of an MKH30 and an MKH20.  i already have a stereo pair of MKH8040 mics so i can substitute for the MKH20 if desired.  recording in MS is a new endeavor for me and i'm looking forward to it.  the MKH30 and MKH20 will also have good uses beyong the MS application; so even if MS proves not to be a common application for me, these mics are good additions to my toolbox.  i hope to see more good comments and feedback on this thread and am eager to learn more about MS recording.     

MS with an omni mid like the MKH20 can save your butt when you have to record on stage or in the middle of the performers, but it's usually not as spacious sounding when compared to directional mid mics.  A figure 8 mid is my favorite when situation allows.
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Re: M-S recording with Sennheiser MKH series
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2011, 02:17:25 PM »
i just picked up a used MS rig at a good price consisting of an MKH30 and an MKH20.  i already have a stereo pair of MKH8040 mics so i can substitute for the MKH20 if desired.  recording in MS is a new endeavor for me and i'm looking forward to it.  the MKH30 and MKH20 will also have good uses beyong the MS application; so even if MS proves not to be a common application for me, these mics are good additions to my toolbox.  i hope to see more good comments and feedback on this thread and am eager to learn more about MS recording.     

MS with an omni mid like the MKH20 can save your butt when you have to record on stage or in the middle of the performers, but it's usually not as spacious sounding when compared to directional mid mics.  A figure 8 mid is my favorite when situation allows.

thanks for the feedback.  i figured that using the omni as the mid would be much better suited for situations close to the stage.  further back from the stage i assume that an MKH50 would be a good choice.  however, i as you move more to the back of a room i assume there is a point at which a mid-side mic configuration becomes the wrong strategy because of diminishing returns from the side mic.     

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Re: M-S recording with Sennheiser MKH series
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2011, 03:44:14 PM »
.. i hope to see more good comments and feedback on this thread and am eager to learn more about MS recording.

Quote
..however, i as you move more to the back of a room i assume there is a point at which a mid-side mic configuration becomes the wrong strategy because of diminishing returns from the side mic.   

That depends on what you mean by diminishing returns.  The side mic will still 'produce stereo' at a distance.  It is true that the side component of the direct sound pickup becomes more and more diminished as you move farther away, but there is no reduction in the side component of the reverberant sound.  In that way the sense of ambient 'stereo-ness' is not diminished, but the imaging of the direct sound is.

If you mean diminishing returns in the sense of how best to capture that sense of spacious reverberant ambience in your stereo recordings made from a significant distance, then yes, there are mic setups other than a coicident M/S array which many poeple feel are better suited to doing that.

For me its helpful to think of M/S as a good tool for optimizing the direct mono pickup of a sound source and 'stereo-izing' it.  That is to say,  the primary advantage I see in using M/S is in the ability to clearly choose the most appropriate directivity for the mid microphone and using that optimally, on-axis to the source.  The mid microphone then collects side information to 'stereoize' that optimized mono pickup.  In that light, I see M/S as placing primary emphasis on clear central mono pickup, then expanding on that to make stereo.

In constrast I see other non-coincident stereo mic'ing techniques as approaching stereo recording from the opposite perspective- starting from optimizing the stereo nature of the recording, then making sure there is a strong and clear mono image (which is not to say that it's unimportant or done less well, just addressed secondarily and less directly.  Sort of working from the other direction.

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Re: M-S recording with Sennheiser MKH series
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2011, 04:13:26 PM »
.. i hope to see more good comments and feedback on this thread and am eager to learn more about MS recording.

Quote
..however, i as you move more to the back of a room i assume there is a point at which a mid-side mic configuration becomes the wrong strategy because of diminishing returns from the side mic.   

That depends on what you mean by diminishing returns.  The side mic will still 'produce stereo' at a distance.  It is true that the side component of the direct sound pickup becomes more and more diminished as you move farther away, but there is no reduction in the side component of the reverberant sound.  In that way the sense of ambient 'stereo-ness' is not diminished, but the imaging of the direct sound is.

If you mean diminishing returns in the sense of how best to capture that sense of spacious reverberant ambience in your stereo recordings made from a significant distance, then yes, there are mic setups other than a coicident M/S array which many poeple feel are better suited to doing that.

For me its helpful to think of M/S as a good tool for optimizing the direct mono pickup of a sound source and 'stereo-izing' it.  That is to say,  the primary advantage I see in using M/S is in the ability to clearly choose the most appropriate directivity for the mid microphone and using that optimally, on-axis to the source.  The mid microphone then collects side information to 'stereoize' that optimized mono pickup.  In that light, I see M/S as placing primary emphasis on clear central mono pickup, then expanding on that to make stereo.

In constrast I see other non-coincident stereo mic'ing techniques as approaching stereo recording from the opposite perspective- starting from optimizing the stereo nature of the recording, then making sure there is a strong and clear mono image (which is not to say that it's unimportant or done less well, just addressed secondarily and less directly.  Sort of working from the other direction.

Horses for courses.

Gutbucket:  thanks the added info and clarification.  yes, by diminishing returns i was referring to the best method for capturing that sense of spacious reverberant ambience in your stereo recordings made from a significant distance.  i totally agree that you'd still have the equivalent amount of stereo-ness regardless of your front-back position within the room. 

Offline John Willett

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Re: M-S recording with Sennheiser MKH series
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2011, 11:04:52 AM »
Also note that the 418s (Senn's stereo MS shotgun) does not use a condenser figure eight but an electret figure eight and does not sound nearly as good as an MKH30/416 pair.
Whatever kind of capsule the 418 uses, and I definitely defer to John Willett on that one, may I point out that even if the capsule were an electret, it is still a condenser capsule. And also mention that there's no technical reason why an electret condenser can't be made to perform as well as an AF/RF biased condenser. e.g.  DPA seem to struggle by quite nicely with electret capsules.

I totally agree.

Electret capsules do tend to get a bad press, though.  Which is why DPA tend to call them "pre-polarised condensers".

And, yes, a DPA electret is every bit as good as a good AF condenser mic.

 

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