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Author Topic: I have V2 > R44; Would V3 add anything?  (Read 6968 times)

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stevetoney

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I have V2 > R44; Would V3 add anything?
« on: February 17, 2009, 10:49:23 AM »
With all of the sub $1K V3's on the Yard Sale right now, I've been wondering if there would be any compelling reasons why I should switch up to a V3, given that I am right now running a V2 into an R-44. 

Two reasons I came up with:

- V3 has better metering.
- V3 could input directly to the digital input on the left side of the R-44 (instead of the XLRs).

Any others?

Reason I'm asking is that I'm not sure right now if these are compelling reasons to spend the extra $$ for a V3 given the functionality I already have with the V2 > R44 setup.

EDIT:  OOPS...I should have added that I'm not right now interested in adding a SECOND V2/V3 for recording to all 4 channels.  That would be an OBVIOUS benefit to buying a V3!
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 10:54:15 AM by tonedeaf »

Offline JasonSobel

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Re: I have V2 > R44; Would V3 add anything?
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2009, 11:13:06 AM »
- V3 has better metering.
- V3 could input directly to the digital input on the left side of the R-44 (instead of the XLRs).

I think that's a big one.  I think the V3's A/D is a wonderful converter (especially at 24 bit), and definitely superior to the R-44's internal A/D.

another minor positive for the V3 relative to the V2 is the gain structure.  The trim knob on the V3 adds gain, while the trim knob on the V2 is an attenuator.  This has been discussed in many other threads here on ts.com if you want to search for more info about this.

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Re: I have V2 > R44; Would V3 add anything?
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2009, 11:13:54 AM »
I love the metering on my ACM V3 and find that using its SPDIF connection makes it really easy. The only thing with using analog preamps with clip only indicators, is you never know exactly how much more headroom you have without clipping it. Personally I like to run as hot as possible, and the metering helps me to achieve that. Buy one and never look back

Offline thekittycatt

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Re: I have V2 > R44; Would V3 add anything?
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2009, 11:40:51 AM »
With all of the sub $1K V3's on the Yard Sale right now, I've been wondering if there would be any compelling reasons why I should switch up to a V3, given that I am right now running a V2 into an R-44. 

Two reasons I came up with:

- V3 has better metering.
- V3 could input directly to the digital input on the left side of the R-44 (instead of the XLRs).

Any others?

Reason I'm asking is that I'm not sure right now if these are compelling reasons to spend the extra $$ for a V3 given the functionality I already have with the V2 > R44 setup.

EDIT:  OOPS...I should have added that I'm not right now interested in adding a SECOND V2/V3 for recording to all 4 channels.  That would be an OBVIOUS benefit to buying a V3!

I have all 3 pieces of gear, but have not ran the V2 with the R-44 yet.  On Friday night I ran FOB at mule.  I ran the V3 digi in on 1&2 and analog in on 3&4, to see if I could hear the difference.  I will try and get a sample posted in a few days.

Offline OFOTD

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Re: I have V2 > R44; Would V3 add anything?
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2009, 12:20:57 PM »
another minor positive for the V3 relative to the V2 is the gain structure.  The trim knob on the V3 adds gain, while the trim knob on the V2 is an attenuator.

I love the metering on my ACM V3 and find that using its SPDIF connection makes it really easy. The only thing with using analog preamps with clip only indicators, is you never know exactly how much more headroom you have without clipping it. Personally I like to run as hot as possible, and the metering helps me to achieve that. Buy one and never look back


Those two reasons alone are reason enough to switch from a V2 to a V3. 

As a former owner of a V2 and a current owner of a V3 I find it confusing as to why the V2 is so revered over the V3.  Maybe because it was first?   Maybe age has something to do with perception?  Price?   Even that is not so much an issue it seems anymore.    I mean I miss my old 316 but i'd never replace my V3 with it ya know but it'd be cool to have the 316 for nostalgia sake.

   

Offline TNJazz

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Re: I have V2 > R44; Would V3 add anything?
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2009, 12:48:44 PM »
Agreed.  I've never wanted a V2.  I don't see why anyone would prefer it over a V3.
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Offline Teen Wolf Blitzer

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Re: I have V2 > R44; Would V3 add anything?
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2009, 01:03:55 PM »
V2 haters.   :P

Offline thekittycatt

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Re: I have V2 > R44; Would V3 add anything?
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2009, 01:06:43 PM »
Agreed.  I've never wanted a V2.  I don't see why anyone would prefer it over a V3.

They like the V2 better then the V3.

stevetoney

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Re: I have V2 > R44; Would V3 add anything?
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2009, 02:31:55 PM »
Agreed.  I've never wanted a V2.  I don't see why anyone would prefer it over a V3.

Because if one assesses that, at $300 or so extra, the V3 doesn't give them anything extra because...say...they are happy with the A/D of a SD7XX, then they might not need the A/D section of the V3.  In that case, is it worth that extra money?  (Opinions are provided in this thread.)  I dare say that the A/D section of the V3 does add an element of brittleness to the sound, but maybe that's just my ears or the mixing on the many recordings that I've sampled.

I'm not V3 bashing, just countering the rhetorical question that was posed.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 02:34:58 PM by tonedeaf »

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Re: I have V2 > R44; Would V3 add anything?
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2009, 03:05:10 PM »
I dare say that the A/D section of the V3 does add an element of brittleness to the sound, but maybe that's just my ears or the mixing on the many recordings that I've sampled.

I'm not V3 bashing, just countering the rhetorical question that was posed.

You are certainly not alone in your opinions of the V3 A/D, though I do think there is a fair amount of "crowd mentality" going on here (a few tapes express an idea and then it gets perpetuated as "conventional wisdom").  Regardless, it would be worthwhile to review this V3 A/D vs 722 A/D comparison, if you haven't already:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,81297.0.html
(though of course, the V3 A/D vs R-44 A/D mentioned earlier in this thread is probably of much more interest to you directly).

I mention the V3 A/D vs 722 A/D because I think it does a very good job of showing how close the two A/D's actually sound - and how good and smooth the V3 sounds.  And to be honest, I think the opinion of the V3's A/D being "thin" or "brittle" stems from 16 bit recordings made with the V3.  I don't really like Grace Design's ANSR dither scheme on the V3, and I find that I like the sound of the V3 much more at 24 bit.  or even the 16 bit file made from a 24 bit recording (and dithered with one of the many available dithers in computer software), rather than a 16 bit recording made directly from the V3 with the ANSR dither.

Offline Todd R

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Re: I have V2 > R44; Would V3 add anything?
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2009, 03:21:55 PM »
And to be honest, I think the opinion of the V3's A/D being "thin" or "brittle" stems from 16 bit recordings made with the V3.  I don't really like Grace Design's ANSR dither scheme on the V3, and I find that I like the sound of the V3 much more at 24 bit.  or even the 16 bit file made from a 24 bit recording (and dithered with one of the many available dithers in computer software), rather than a 16 bit recording made directly from the V3 with the ANSR dither.

I've always wondered whether the belief that the V3 is thin is because it has very quick transient response time and people are comparing a much lower average RMS recording to a higher average RMS recording.  Think of it this way:  the music is moving along and is pretty consistent at about -10db's.  A quick sharp hit to the snare drum occurs during the performance, and the very fast response V3 captures that snare hit by jumping up to -2db before falling back to the -10db music.  Another slower response pre/AD combo only shows that snare hit going up to -5db before  moving back to the -10db music (since it's response is too slow and it can't truly recreate the dynamics of the music).  I think this is what happens with the V3 (and why people think it never seems to truly clip, because the clips are of very quick transients and aren't easily heard by ear).

If you go back and normalize these recordings, the -10db V3 recording is only boosted by 2db (since the snare hit was at -2db), so it is an average -8db recording.  The other recording gets boosted by 5db, so on average it is a -5db recording.  Then that recording sounds "normal", but the V3 recording sounds "thin" -- but in reality, the non-V3 recording is 3db hotter, and people perceive louder as better. 

I've always wondered if people would have the same opinion if the V3 recording were compressed a bit to get rid of those quick transients or at least if both recordings being compared were normalized to have matching average RMS loudness (instead of normalized to have the same max loudness).

Sorry, big aside, but since we started talking about it...
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Offline OFOTD

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Re: I have V2 > R44; Would V3 add anything?
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2009, 03:50:27 PM »
Because if one assesses that, at $300 or so extra, the V3 doesn't give them anything extra because...say...they are happy with the A/D of a SD7XX, then they might not need the A/D section of the V3.  In that case, is it worth that extra money?  (Opinions are provided in this thread.)  I dare say that the A/D section of the V3 does add an element of brittleness to the sound, but maybe that's just my ears or the mixing on the many recordings that I've sampled.

I'm not V3 bashing, just countering the rhetorical question that was posed.

If I never used the A/D section of my V3 (modded or not) and used it strictly as a preamp the trim knob and metering completely warrant the $300 upgrade difference.

Without doubt.   

stevetoney

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Re: I have V2 > R44; Would V3 add anything?
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2009, 04:00:29 PM »
As the OP, I have no problem with the direction of this thread...it's an interesting discussion really because I'll be totally honest that I wasn't completely reaching my 'V3 is brittle' conclusion based on anything but my own listening on LMA because I've very much convinced myself over the last two years that I am the only 'customer' that my ears are trying to satisfy.  

I think I have some agreement with Todd...that 'brittle' might not be the best adjective.  In my own listening samples, there's often a fatigueing issue with lots of the samples that I've listened to.  I like the overall detail ALOT, but I just can't listen very long to the un-EQed sample without feeling like my ears are starting to ring.  

A couple other experimental 'discoveries'.  It seems like, in playing around with downloaded V3 files, if I back off a little on mid-range levels, it seems to de-fatigue the samples for my ears.  I have no clue if this is universal for others, but it seems like that's been something that my ears are happy with.

Finally, I don't seem to experience that ringing fatigue nearly as much with the virgin V2 samples, and it's definitely not existing in the ACM samples that I listen to.

Really, I'm not suggesting any conclusions from any of the above input...I'm just saying that in doing my own unscientific research and using my basic analog feedback methods (headphones and my ears) these were some 'loose' observations, but honestly I hadn't reaching any specific conclusions because I also understand that my methods are totally subjective (like maybe what samples I've listened to).
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 04:07:30 PM by tonedeaf »

stevetoney

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Re: I have V2 > R44; Would V3 add anything?
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2009, 04:04:03 PM »
Because if one assesses that, at $300 or so extra, the V3 doesn't give them anything extra because...say...they are happy with the A/D of a SD7XX, then they might not need the A/D section of the V3.  In that case, is it worth that extra money?  (Opinions are provided in this thread.)  I dare say that the A/D section of the V3 does add an element of brittleness to the sound, but maybe that's just my ears or the mixing on the many recordings that I've sampled.

I'm not V3 bashing, just countering the rhetorical question that was posed.

If I never used the A/D section of my V3 (modded or not) and used it strictly as a preamp the trim knob and metering completely warrant the $300 upgrade difference.

Without doubt.   

Coolio.  Thanks David!  Good feedback. 

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Re: I have V2 > R44; Would V3 add anything?
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2009, 04:17:54 PM »
I have an R-44, V2 an ACM V3 and i just sold a stock V3.

At trim 0 on both the V2 and V3 analog out = same sound
So if you are going to run analog, the difference is just
the better metering and the different trim setup (like others have stated)

If you plan on running 24 bit digi out......get the ACM V3!!
I have 4023>ACM V3 and all i can say is WOW....what a difference.
To my ears, its just the sound i was looking for.

 
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