Topic: Insufficient PS2 signal, faulty chain?

[travelinbeat]

I'm pretty new to the open-taping game, but my open mics are Busman BSC1's, and that's where my question starts.  I understand that to power the mic's I need something like a PS2, so I have one now, but if I've found that BSC1's > PS2 > R09HR doesn't provide much signal at all if I'm trying to go Line-In (as I understand is the preferred method).  If I do go Line-In, I've found that I really need to blast the signal on the device and that's no good either (I understand the noise floor is pretty unforgiving once you really crank the levels on the R09HR).  So my thought was to pop my CA-9100 into the chain; after the PS2 and before the R09HR.  Recently though, Pete from Team DC has been doubting whether or not this is a good idea, fearing that extra power may go backwards and damage the mics (or something to that affect).  My question is basically what in the world can I do, with the gear listed in my signature, to get a nice fat signal to my R09HR without jeopardizing any of that gear in the meantime?

[OOK]

My understanding of the PS2 is that it is only a phantom power supply.  It will not add any gain to your signal hence the reason you are not getting enough signal to go line in.  You should have more than enough signal to go mic in.  Although the line in is quieter, the mic in will be more than sufficient in terms of noise level.  Recording music in the types of environment we record in you won't come close to hearing any noise other than environmental....

Although different than your situation I have recorded with oldschool Nak cm300 right into the mic in and it sounds fine....actually fantastic.....any sounds heard outside of the music are environmental...I hear zero noise from the mic in of my R9HR... and Nakcm300's are certainly more noisy than a ps2 and or a R9HR.  My statements are certainly less than scientific but use your ears, I have learned spec don't necessarily mean perfection ...its what sounds good to your ears that matters...

peace OOK..

[Church-Audio]

I'm pretty new to the open-taping game, but my open mics are Busman BSC1's, and that's where my question starts.  I understand that to power the mic's I need something like a PS2, so I have one now, but if I've found that BSC1's > PS2 > R09HR doesn't provide much signal at all if I'm trying to go Line-In (as I understand is the preferred method).  If I do go Line-In, I've found that I really need to blast the signal on the device and that's no good either (I understand the noise floor is pretty unforgiving once you really crank the levels on the R09HR).  So my thought was to pop my CA-9100 into the chain; after the PS2 and before the R09HR.  Recently though, Pete from Team DC has been doubting whether or not this is a good idea, fearing that extra power may go backwards and damage the mics (or something to that affect).  My question is basically what in the world can I do, with the gear listed in my signature, to get a nice fat signal to my R09HR without jeopardizing any of that gear in the meantime?

I dont think it would be a problem because the phantom supply should have DC blocking caps on the output of the unit.
Chris

[joaquin]

(I understand the noise floor is pretty unforgiving once you really crank the levels on the R09HR)

I don't know where you got this idea. I've had no problem with the R09HR adding noise when  recording at 80. There may be noise problems when using the internal mics, I never use them.

At any rate, you should just test the setup at home. Set everything up and set the recording level on the R09HR to 80 in a quiet room and listen for hiss.

[su6oxone]

I understand that to power the mic's I need something like a PS2, so I have one now, but if I've found that BSC1's > PS2 > R09HR doesn't provide much signal at all if I'm trying to go Line-In (as I understand is the preferred method).  If I do go Line-In, I've found that I really need to blast the signal on the device and that's no good either (I understand the noise floor is pretty unforgiving once you really crank the levels on the R09HR).  So my thought was to pop my CA-9100 into the chain; after the PS2 and before the R09HR.  Recently though, Pete from Team DC has been doubting whether or not this is a good idea, fearing that extra power may go backwards and damage the mics (or something to that affect).

TB, I had the same concerns a year ago or so when I was running Neumann km184 > ps-2 > r-09 and was finding that the signal was too low for some less loud shows and so I tried using a 9100 after the ps-2 to add gain.  I asked around first here and was told that there should be no issues like that due to what Mr. Church posted above.  Anyway, I have tried it with success and without any damaging consequences to any of the components in the chain. 

[travelinbeat]

Thanks for weighing in so far folks--  looks like I'll be running some tests on my next day off (quiet room with BSC1's > PS2 > Mic In vs. BSC1's > PS2 > Line In and varying levels on varying devices).  At the very least, it's a HUGE relief to know that I'm not damaging or risking damage to my gear.

[acidjack]

The other solution always being "buy more gear"  but it is worth noting that the Littlebox unit is about the same price as a 1/8" output PS/2 and will not present this issue.  PS/2 is probably still better/easier for a "mobile" rig, however, since it has a belt clip and doesn't require independent setting of levels.  But, given the mics you're talking about, that's not much of an issue anyway since they are larger in size.

[travelinbeat]

I've done some tests, four configurations, and I have an image for you.

Test One: BSC1's > PS2 > Line In
Test Two: BSC1's > PS2 > Mic In
Test Three: BSC1's > PS2 > 9100 (at half setting) > Line In
Test Four: BSC1's > PS2 > 9100 (cranked to full) > Line In

for each of these tests I started the R09HR gain setting at zero for about 10 seconds, then added +1 on the HR for each second, as it passed (all the way up to the full +80).  These images were rendered using IzoTope RX's Spectral Analysis and represent about the last 30 seconds of each test.  I was taping a quiet room, so short of a few random clicks from it being a wooden house, the tape should be pretty silent other than any device noise incurred in the line.  I really can't hear much of a difference, and it's tough to see much of a difference, but for the sake of getting your opinions even more so, I'm posting the image of the tests without labeling them, so that you can comment on which you think is best.

[travelinbeat]

Called Denecke today (I have no good reason for why it's taken this long) and here's the jist of what I got from them:  The PS2 is a power supply; not any sort of a preamp.  It is design solely to provide power to microphones so that they spit out a mic-level signal.  Any amplification of said output could be boosted with a preamp without any expected potential damage to any component in the chain.

So, problem isn't "solved," per se, but the mystery is, and it looks like I'm going to be sticking with mic > PS2 > 9100 > recorder for the foreseeable future.

[drewski1986]

Your 2-27-2010 nmas show came out sounding nice so I wouldn't change anything either! 

[travelinbeat]

Your 2-27-2010 nmas show came out sounding nice so I wouldn't change anything either! 

=) thanks Drew, I'm happy with all the tapes I've heard from that night-- I think we all did pretty well!

[tbrown4]

I was using the just the PS2 for about a year between my mics and my deck. In some situations (loud electric shows) I absolutely loved the pure un-messed with sound that I got out of it. But, for quieter shows I was less than pleased. The PS2 is a good power supply, but for quieter (acoustic) shows you really need some sort of external gain. The noise floor (even at 24/96) seemed to be too audible for me. Finally broke down and got a proper pre and have been 1000% pleased, insert Naiant commercial here. Now it seems my rig is complete.

Until the next time I want new gear....

[dean]

My understanding of the PS2 is that it is only a phantom power supply.  It will not add any gain to your signal hence the reason you are not getting enough signal to go line in.  You should have more than enough signal to go mic in.  Although the line in is quieter, the mic in will be more than sufficient in terms of noise level.  Recording music in the types of environment we record in you won't come close to hearing any noise other than environmental....

QFT